Thankyou for reading.. I just found this site and am so thankful to finally not feel so crazy! I look forward to hearing your thoughts for me and my family.. (if this looks too long, you can scroll to my main questions in bold at the bottom!)

DH and I married right out of college (9yrs now) - my dad died our first year of marriage, and our first son was born the following year (then another and another). Our marriage has always felt hard, but I also believe we really love both each other and God.

A little over a year ago, things seemed like they were finally settling a bit for us. our third son had just turned one, DH loved his job (I homeschool and do some freelance design work), we were leading ministries in our church, had great friends, etc. He had suddenly decided he might want to have four children; and I clearly remember him running around a park last October yelling, 'I love my wife! I love my wife!'

Then a new girl started working for him. Very very quickly, something began to feel wrong. He turned inward, resentful, bitter, angry at me all the time. Nothing helped. He wouldn't talk about it. An hour before his work Christmas party last year he called and told me not to come. I was crushed, stunned, confused. And never, never, suspected an affair. His attitude worsened. He finally talked to his accountability group and our pastor about how he was feeling, 'that he didn't really love me, had never been happy, was unwilling to work on the marriage, etc.' Our pastor told us to try having fun, lots of dates, 'not working on it' etc. I tried wholeheartedly - he just removed himself more.

Finally I agreed to a separation. He continued seeing the kids, going to church with us, his men's group etc. I continued seeing my own counselor, working on my own stuff, and being constantly 'gracious' to him. Giving him space. After a month he agreed to individual counseling - within two weeks of beginning that he became extremely depressed, then suicidal, and began anti-depressants in the spring.

All the while I worked on my own stuff, we never fought when we were together - had fun as a family, etc. I didn't question him, trusted him, gave him space. It was very much like Plan A without me knowing it (God is so good). Finally he agreed to 4 2-hour marital counseling sessions. But for each session he was extremely defensive, hostile, etc. It went nowhere. Finally, after 5 months of separation, both our pastor and counselor said he needed to move back in and try working on the marriage. He refused, said he couldn't be 'trapped.' No one knew what that meant. Finally, after his mens group really stood in, he agreed to come back.

For two months he lived at home again, with an 'even better' me. He has said only good things about this year - he liked being together, no complaints. etc. So I could not understand what was wrong. I really though he might be mentally ill, or even possessed, i just didn't know. But his outbursts continued to increase, and he was doing very dishonoring things toward me. Finally, the first week of October I found a receipt for a 'late night work meeting' earlier in the week. I confronted him. He finally confessed to me, and our pastor, that he had been seeing/sleeping with his coworker since the summer. But I think emotionally it had been going on since this time last year.

I have never felt such shock or pain. He so highly valued integrity - even as I heard him say the words I just couldn't believe it. No one here could. Our pastors, friends, family could not sleep either that first week. He had fooled, literally, everyone.

He was unwilling to stop seeing her and moved out of the house, so I've been alone (really most of the year) with three small boys to care for. He has continued to pay our bills, and to see them - but will not stop seeing her. He looks awful - fully admits to being miserable, not eating, sleeping etc. He got to a point a few weeks ago that we thought was hitting bottom - even having nightmares of dying etc. He called his mens group leader and said 'i need to see you tonight; i need to make a plan to do whatever it takes to get my wife and family back.' they talked and prayed for hours. he went the next day and broke it off with her.

The following morning he just couldn't take it, and went back to her - told me he was no longer going to try and come home.

Every time I see him and let him talk at all he says the same things, like, 'I miss you - feel like I'm two people - like I'm going crazy - this isn't what I want - I really think I will do the right thing - etc.' but he never takes any action. it is all, just, talk. and makes me heart go crazy, wanting to hope - but always being painfully disappointed. he can not seem to let go of her.

I can not imagine how much more of a bottom he can hit. what could possibly cause him to stop seeing this girl if none of this so far has?

my pastors have counseled me to pursue divorce (even that has not phased him). they are not in any way pro-divorce, but feel there is not God-oriented repentance in him or desire to change that they can see, and that right now he is just getting what he wants - that pursuing divorce is a way for him to face reality. He has only taken any patience this year and abused it.

But from reading things on this site, it seems like experience might say there is a reason to wait? This is what I'm most curious about? Will waiting really help toward him breaking it off with her? It seems like it just gives him more time to keep building into her/them.

Our marriage has not been easy; I can see how some of Harley's things might help us if he came back to try. I have worked hard on my own stuff and know that I am more healthy; but he has not, and may not be willing to. Our counselor says he is verbally abusive with me and narcisstic. I believe in a God who does change and heal - but right now I am wondering what exactly the purpose is for more waiting, sacrifice, etc? when Jesus himself said it is permissible to divorce because of adultery? is it really worth waiting indefinitely, staying as stuck as I feel while he continues to be with someone else? What am I trying to save at this point?

I also know that part of the affair attraction is this: she is very FREE - artist (like him), no responsibilities, travels, money, etc. We are young with three small children and a mortgage and it is just hard. Though some things can change; the change can not be that he does not have any responsiblities. It is my fear that I can never compete with that - what she offers in that way. Thoughts..?

Thankyou. Thankyou. Thankyou.

You've been doing a Plan A, but does that include meeting whatever needs he'll let you meet? It sounds as if you have been a loving, patient and understanding wife, but have you figured out his most important emotional needs and tried to meet those needs?

If you have done a good and complet Plan A, it may soon be time for you to go to Plan B.

Weekends are slow around here, but more expert folks than I should be here within a day or so.

thanks for responding!

yes, i really was doing planA - with guidance from counselor, pastors, etc. some very specific things - like making room/time/support etc. for him to fulfill his dream as an artist - staying up late talking to him while he painted, even painting with him. those kinds of things. dreaming with him about things he wants, listening and asking good questions, etc.

I kind of feel like I'm already in Plan B? Not sure what would make my current situation different than Plan B - but like I said, it doesn't really seem to be working?

The affair will die a natural death even if you don't do anything. However, if you wait for that to happen, you will likely hate him or suffer severe psychological problems and then the marriage really will be over. Once you grow to hate him, it is extremely hard to love him again.

Your best weapon against the affair is exposure. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure ruins the fantasy aspect when the affairees are forced to see how sleazy they look through the eyes of others. It is the most powerful weapon you have. It should be exposed to:

1. his parents
2. your parents
3. the OW's parents and husband, if any
4. employer, if a workplace affair
5. siblings and close relatives
6. pastor and eventually the church according to the example set forth in the Bible


It would not hurt to file for D if you think you need this for protection, but more importantly, Plan B is called for in your situation. Plan B is complete and total seperation from your H. See, the affair will crumble at some point and he will probably want to come back. So listen carefully: unless you remove yourself from his adulterous triangle NOW, you will develop severe psychological symptoms from being exposed to this abuse and will grow to hate him. Many women have nervous breakdowns and suffer from years of post traumatic stress disorder. This is why it is important to remove yourself from his abuse.

There is another added benefit to Plan B that may well hasten the death of the affair. The WS is getting his needs met in 2 places right now. You meet 3-4 needs and the OW meets 1-2 TOP NEEDS. He can exist happily forever in this set up and has no motivation to end it. However, when you go completely dark, he quickly realizes that the OW cannot meet the needs that were being met by you. So, his demands on her grow accordingly and lovebusting starts. He begins to put impossible demands on her because of all he has sacrificed and she cannot possibly live up to his unrealistic expectations. Not to mention the fact that they are now isolated completely. They cannot visit his family or come to church. His children are not allowed around his sleazy affair. They are pariahs. This is ruinous to the affair. Plan B can have the effect of pulling them off the fence, however, its main intent is to PROTECT your mental health and the remaining love you have for your H.

Plan B is launched with a love letter which tells him you are sorry for your contribution to the state of the marriage, that his affair is so painful that you must end all contact with him, and it gives a PATH BACK. You would tell him that you will not be in contact with him until he ends his affair and commits to a path of recovery. This allows you to go dark on a positive note.


Give it 2 years and follow the plan we lay out for you. If the affair doesn't end by then, you should divorce and move on.


Only you can decide if it is worth it. You would be perfectly within your rights, in the eyes of God, if you cut your losses now and moved on. If it were me, I might go into Plan B for a while first and THEN make that decision with a sound, clear mind. You are so embattled right now that it might not be the best time to make this decision. If you are in Plan B, you can take your time.


Yes, you can compete with that if he is in love with you. He is not in love right now.

I would suggest ordering Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley off this website and reading it as fast as you can. In the meantime, I would read every article on this link about infidelity: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

phoenix, do you think he really is a narcissist? And is this his first affair?

He is not bringing the children around his OW, is he?

phoenix,

Welcome to MB. I have very little to add to the excellent and comprehensive advice that ML has left for you. I would only repeat many of the same things. I just wanted you to know that I'd read your situation and that you aren't alone.

It sounds as though many people know about the affair....who doesn't know? I think a very very dark Plan B is the best course of action....so start getting the letter, finances, custody agreements, and hopefull an intermediary in place so that you can end all contact with your husband until the time is right.

P4:

Here it all IS:

"I also know that part of the affair attraction is this: she is very FREE - artist (like him), no responsibilities, travels, money, etc. We are young with three small children and a mortgage and it is just hard. "

Responsibility. Your H is running away from it.

Time to give him some.

Time for him to understand, even IF he divorces you, that the responsibility that he is running away from, will catch up to him.

Take control of the finances. So that the TRUE financial picture is seen.

Give him the KIDS. Let him change diapers and wipe noses and keep them from killing each other for four nights a week. You go someplace else. The kids can hang at his place.

Why? Because he is CHOOSING the easy way out. Make sure you show him that your WAY is the easier way. HE thinks that OW is free and easy. (Ok, YES, she IS!) But really, she isn't. If he is ALLOWED to only have to kick out some cash to kepp you happy, it's to EASY.

So, show him that STAYING is easier.

And get some better counseling. They seem to be failing both of you.

LG

T H A N K Y O U

My question is that I kind of feel like I already have been (unknowingly) doing planB since D-day? I'm not sure if there is a way to do it more effectively?

I did right away let everyone know - except his workplace. Is that really helpful? They're mostly young guys like him (except not Christians), and I feel like they'll just be sympathetic. They do know he's had an affair, they just don't know it's with her. Though I wouldn't be too surprised if they've figured it out. Would I tell his boss? It just feels so.. yuck. And I know would make him really angry - just wondering if it would be worthwhile?

But yes, everyone else has turned him out. And he felt that very harshly at the beginning - which i'm sure is partly what lead him to try and call it off, but then he couldn't do it. so i'm wondering what else will affect him?

I see how my allowing him to talk to me at all feeds that need - so I've been trying hard not to engage/be engaged in conversation with him. But otherwise, how can I go more dark? Here is the current stats:

He agreed, with our pastor and lawyer, to keep things 'status quo'. So is continuing to pay bills, mortgage etc. He is living with her (or work friends - but mostly her). We only have one car - but he doesn't need it because he lives/works in the city and takes public trans.

At first I said I didn't want him in the house at all (just felt so digusted). But it is hard with the small kids - he can't take them to her place. So mostly now when he sees them I let him be in the house OR take the car.

This trade off is hard. This is when I get sucked into his sad puppy eyes and want to try and rescue him. If I let him start talking about how miserable he is, I just start trying to save him - give him hope, perspective, a way out, etc. He always agrees, cries, etc - but never takes any action. So one thing I've tried is to no longer engage in any conversation, just give one-word answers if he asks me questions. But it's HARD. any suggestions on how to do this better? I wish wish wish i could not see him at all.

I have pretty much said to him what is suggested to write in a letter (still love him, would be willing to work on things if he cuts off contact, need to not 'be his friend', etc.). he perfectly agrees with it all, respects it, etc. we don't call, email, etc. do i still need to write the letter?

I still think he needs help. I think part of why he turned to her is a way to escape his depression. He has even said clearly to me that it's not about her or me, but that he feels he's running from God. even though he knows he can't. but clearly, she is now a big part of everything.

so he has told me that he is going to try a 3-week Christian counseling clinic here - it's not overnight but is 9-5 each day (he will take off work). he had said he wouldn't see her in that time, but i don't know if that's true. he has been pursuing this, getting doctors test, etc. - but now he seems to be procrastinating the final step. do i just let it go, keep waiting and just see? anything i could do to make this more possibly helpful?

i think my counselor has been good for me. she didn't help him much - but was also suspicious from day one of an affair, and i think he spent most of the time trying to hide that. if we did work on things, we would need a new counselor i'm sure. but i can't even imagine getting there!

I do think he is narcisstic. And depressed (or possibly bi-polar). And just plain selfish. I also think he's really incredible in a lot of ways - and does really love God (and even our boys, though you certainly wouldn't know it right now..) - I think these are the things he feels worst about. I have also worked on my own stuff enough now to know how I have enabled some of his behaviors as well.

One thing I struggle with is wanting to control - so after finding this site I just want to tell him everything i've learned! Tell him it's an addiction, tell him there's hope, tell him to fight! But I'm guessing that won't be helpful, and will just pull me into the spiral again..?

Is there anything different I CAN do at this point?

Two years feels like forever right now. How do you live in the meantime?

T H A N K Y O U
so much.

phoenix, Plan B is complete and total separation from him. It is not giving him the cold shoulder. It is going absolutely DARK after delivering the love letter, and taking complete control of your life back. There is absolutely no contact whatsoever. Visitations would be set up on a strict schedule and any changes would be facilitated through an intermediary. He wouldn't be allowed to come in your house and get his "fix." You would spell this out in your letter to him.

As far as visitation, you wouldn't want him in the house and you wouldn't want to give him the car. Instead, I would set up a neutral place where you could drop the kids and he could come for a visit with the specification that the kids never be exposed to his affair.

So, I would get all this worked out beforehand and start working on your letter now. A very good time to go into Plan B is the holidays because it is a huge wake up call to the WS.

A good plan B letter can be found here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

You will find that once you deliver the letter and go completely dark, that your H will do anything to see if he can get through. Most WS's do not like losing control, so be prepared to block his attempts to get through. If he does manage to get through, your credibility is ruined and your leverage lost.

Is this a workplace affair? If so, I would suggest sending a registered letter to the Director of Human Resources, the company VP and both their bosses. [address to the VP and cc the others] Pattern it after this: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=2

Who else has been told and BY WHOM? Have his parents been told BY YOU? And do they have the truth? Have the OW's family members been told? Exposing to parents is an excellent tactic because some parents will not tolerate adultery [many don't give a damn] and will never let the affair partner darken their door. THAT creates great conflict in the affair.

I agree, but am just not sure how to physically do this with small kids? (please direct me if there's a post that would summarize that..) otherwise, these are my specific questions:

If I make it harder for him - no car, no house, etc. - he is likely to either start pushing a divorce forward so he can get his own place/car, etc, or make things a lot harder for me (he makes all the money, etc. could he start playing dirty with that? or would it just mean i would need more legal protection?) right now the status quo feels safe, i'm a bit afraid to start messing with it? but either you think there's not anything to be afraid of, or it will be worth it in the end?

What kind of neutral place can I drop off three little kids? Like a friend? I almost want them to continue not seeing him so they don't get sucked into his 'i know this is awful, but i'm really a great guy - don't you miss me' thing.

Do you think I should wait on this to see if he goes to the clinic and what that does? I could write the letter, but have it ready?

My lawyer also has the divorce papers ready - but I've been waiting on the clinic thing as well. It's not that forwarding the divorce will serve me at all, just that it might be a wake up call for him. But maybe the real Plan B is the first wakeup call?

Lastly, what if he just feels ok with Plan B? Gets his freedom, girlfriend, etc. but still knows his kids are taken care of and so on. Is that possible? Then do I just pray about how long I can endure it?

And WHAT do I do in the meantime? I've been trying to exercise still, be a good mom and care for my boys through this, see friends, things I like, etc. Anything else that just makes this pain a bit more tolerable? or makes me feel like i'm not just WAITING?

thanks...

phoenix4,

It sounds like you've done an incredible job so far without even knowing about this site and the concepts of Dr. Harley. I agree with the other posters that it's probably time for you to enter Plan B. Even you said that you wish you didn't see him at all. Listen to the other posters here who describe how to enter Plan B when children are involved. It's a little more difficult, but not impossible.

Prior to that, however, you must expose to the workplace. Your WH is addicted to the OW and continued contact with her only strengthens that addiction. The two of them cannot work together anymore. At best, the workplace has a policy about no Extra-Marital Relationships and fires the OW. Short that, there is a policy about no inter-office romances. At worst, there is no policy and the two simply have to endure office gossip. Regardless, the A must be exposed so that consequences can be felt. It may help break up the A, which must happen before your marriage can be saved.

yes, he is her art director (she basically works for him). but he is pretty beloved at the company and by his bosses - i'm afraid that I will just come off looking mean and vindictive..? that he will just feel protective of her and angry with me? will it really help if they probably already know about it anyway (at least his coworkers, maybe not his bosses i guess)

all of our family knows - his parents are really brokenhearted. but they also have a hard time being very assertive. I think if they knew something to do that could help that they would do it though.

she is single - i don't know any of her family, etc. she's not from around here. sometimes i think about contacting her myself, but I'm guessing that's a bad idea..?

Since she is 'basically' working for him, then you definitely need to expose this A to his employers. Most offices have policies against romantic relationships between manager and subordinates.

If he is beloved by his bosses and they find this out will they be disappointed? They should be. Should a person be beloved for cheating on their W and lying about it? No. This is what exposure is all about. Letting people see the truth of the situation so they can make decisions with all the facts. If your H is breaking the rules of the company he works for, he deserves to be punished for that. That's his fault for doing so, not yours for pointing it out.

As far as contacting the OW goes, other female posters may have a better idea about that. I would venture that maybe you should, just on the off-chance she doesn't know she's having an A with a married man. Also that you are fighting for your marriage and you want her to stop seeing your WH. This may help your effort by making their A less comfortable.

The status quo is not safe; his affair is being cemented with very little consequence at the expense of your mental health. The status quo is ENABLING his affair. However, you might want to file divorce BEFOREHAND ensuring that he continues to pay the bills.


You will need to find a place that is convenient for you for visitation. However, your children SHOULD BE TOLD THE TRUTH. Those kids should not be lied to about what is going on here. If they are not told the truth, they cannot defend themselve against your H's lies and from being drug into his affair. They should be told the truth and given MORAL GUIDANCE. It is imperative that you tell them that affairs are immoral and WHY. Lest they grow up morally confused.


I would move forward with this plan regardless of what he does at a clinic.


i think that BOTH are in order here. You need the divorce filed to protect you legally and you need to be in Plan B to protect your mental health. If your lawyer is ready to roll, then I would do this. And if at some point your H is ready to comply wth your ultimatums, you can always stop the divorce.

In your D, I would avoid mediation AT ALL COSTS and tell your attorney to drag his feet. Mediation will cause you great pain. I would also make sure your grounds are ADULTERY [if you can do this] and that the OW is called as a WITNESS to adultery. Make it hard for her to destroy you. In many states you can do this. Seeing ADULTERY on a legal document is a huge wake up call to many a WS. He should face that consequence.


You won't have any way of knowing, so don't even worry about it.


You should focus on your own life and your boys. Your pain will start to ebb in about 3 weeks into Plan B and you will feel better than you have in a very long time. With each passing week you will feel better and stronger. And every time you see or hear from him will drag you back into he11, so you will be highly motivated to ENSURE no contact stays in place.

p.s. the 6 yr old and the 4 yr old are old enough to understand adultery, phoenix. I would explain to them what is really going on. It is highly possible that your H has already exposed them in some way to his affair or his wayward thinking so it will be important to speak to them so he can't screw them up. Kids sense right from wrong and when that is not validated, they begin to DOUBT their instincts and believe they are stupid, leading to moral confusion.

thank you so much. i just had a talk with his parents and they are going to continue to apply pressure, i think they were feeling like nothing mattered. anything specifically they can do/say?

i think i'm afraid that day-to-day feels 'manageable' right now - and what if my dark dark plan b just upsets everything? but what i'm hearing is that i'm not gaining much, and in the long term this is really going to wear on my psyche, right? like this might be more painful at the beginning, but has a better chance of working and will make me feel better in the end - even if i end up with less time free of children, etc.?

i'm going to work on my letter - afterwards do i add it to this post, or start a new one?

should i be thinking about anything regarding him - or just let all of that go? (like does he really love me, is there hope if he does come back, etc.?)

i am still not totally convinced it will be better to have him back, but i do feel like i've done everything possible thus far to save my marriage, i might as well try just a little bit more/longer..?

thankyou.

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH.
i wish that i could throw up right now.
I'm sitting in our room listening to WH put our oldest boys to sleep (before he leaves), praying with them and being sickening sweet. I hate that he's praying with them!! I hate that he's making it seem like he's so wonderful and kind.

NOW, my 4-yr old just started screaming and wailing (WH is still in there, so I'm trying to let him calm him himself). What a sick sick thing this is. It is still hard for me to believe anyone can be this selfish. I would do anything I could to take away this pain from my boys - why won't he??!

I am seeing why the dark plan B will be a better option for me - though I am sure it will be harder on them. This was the first weekend I let him be in our house since D-day - was trying to be nice for the holidays, give the boys more time with him. It was nice to have a break myself, I'm feeling so refreshed - BUT, also feeling disgusted at him being here and this pretense. Maybe was not worth it.

So back to my question (sorry i'd started a different thread); any good suggestions on a way to make this work with the boys? we don't have any family nearby..

also, you could pray for me now. I'm sure he's going to try to lure me into conversation when he leaves there room. I'm trying to look very busy! :-)

Prayers to you and your family, Phoenix. Remember that the affair usually ends and you will have your husband back again. You just need to hang in there for your family.

Follow the MB plans, expose at his work. Don't worry about what makes him angry. The main thing is do what it takes to end the affair. That will be the best thing to save your marriage.