Link that contains a little background on my sitch HERE

Anyway, I just was reading Bobpures advice to Sinking and the suggestion was basically to expose the affair. My problem is that my H of 10 years isn't actually having an affair. He has left because he thinks there might be someone better out there for him.

Please, don't try to tell me that he is obviously cheating already, etc. I know that it could look that way, but I believe that he is not cheating and that he is basically trying to see if he can find someone else. He does try to couch it with that he "needs to feel independent" "doesn't know if he even wants to be married-to anyone" and more stuff like that.

Anyway- if we ASSUME that he is NOT cheating- what can I do? I have no one that can put moral pressure on him. His stupid parents didn't encourage him to stay. (He told me that he was very disappointed in them that they didn't try to talk him out of leaving.) He has been leading a married single life for a long time now. (going out to bars, not having his friends over to our house because he "didn't know what was going to happen with us", stuff like that.) Since he has a whole set of single friends that I don't know, I can't call on them to help. (And I doubt they would anyway.)

We did go to a MB weekend and he was NOT into doing POJA or spending the 15 hours UA.

He tells me he loves me a great deal, will always love me, I'm his best friend, he is attracted to me and we have great SF..BUT "something" is missing. He wishes he could tell me what the "something" is. If he could, "it would be the best thing for everyone, but he just doesn't know what it is."

He has been moved out since Aug 4th. Lease is up end of January and at that time he wants the house back, and quite possibly for me to move someplace else. He keeps saying that he is afraid if he comes back that things will end up in the same place - where he just wants to leave.

What do I do? I am battling the dream of some fantasy girl. If I were to do a plan B, what would I say in the letter? Am I really just an idiot trying to save this marriage?

Hi SG

In the 3.5 years I've been here I have read and studied hundreds of marriage situations.

A whole lot of them whose WS left before the A was busted said the very same things your H has said. If he had said "ILYBINILWY" he'd have the full set to sell on Ebay ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SG you have to snoop HARD and find out for CERTAIN that there isn't an OW. Hire a POI if necessary. Your creditable desire to believe he is not in an affair now is not helpful to your marriage.

Have you tried the emotional needs board here ? I understand they have a lot of experience dealing with non-infidelity marriage issues, if indeed you can prove your H is not cheating.


All blessings.

SG, do as Bob has suggested. Also IMO, do no move out of your house. If your H wants to live an independent life let him do it without causing YOU more heartache which would be moving. Don't do it.

SG,

He's right, <something> IS missing....his brain activity. Here's my best guess about why you can't discover he's having an affair....because he isn't. I'd bet the farm he's just having a series of "interviews". He sounds more interested in acting single than getting involved in another long term relationship....at least for now.

How successful have you been at losing some of the weight SG? I know you have a thyroid condition, but you described it as a "ton" of weight and I think no matter what happens to your marriage, that you need to get healthier and feel better about yourself. You know how narcissistic H is.....wants to be a rock star (ha, real likely at 42), and you aren't the kind of entourage he wants on his rock tour....young adoring female fans is what he has in mind.

You've put up with this juvenile behavior long enough (you've been doing this since Sept/Oct 2005)....make sure your Plan A is perfect for the next two weeks while you get finances in order and write your letter. But it's high time to pull the plug and stop enabling him.

Instead of "affair" you can cite his "independent behavior" as being too painful to continue contact. Otherwise, the form is basically the same.

I'm sorry this is happening SG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />....he really sounds like he's deep in the throes of a midlife crisis.

Hi SassyGal,

IMHO you should do what both BobPure and Starfish have suggested: Hire a PI if you have to in order to find out for sure if there is a particular OW AND do a VERY BRIEF but VERY GOOD Plan A and then give him a Plan B letter.

Also, I agree that you should NOT move out of your home so he can move back into it!

If he isn't committing adultery yet it's just because he hasn't founfd a willing adulteress yet and/or because he doesn't want to get into a long term relationship with anyone.

He sounds VERY immature and cruel to me.

"He tells me he loves me a great deal, will always love me, I'm his best friend, he is attracted to me and we have great SF"

This is his way of telling you that you do meet some of his important emotional needs and therefore he intends to keep you in his life for his own selfish reasons and because he feels ENTITLED...

"..BUT "something" is missing. He wishes he could tell me what the "something" is. If he could, "it would be the best thing for everyone, but he just doesn't know what it is."

The SOMETHING that's missing is his GENUINE concern, respect, appreciation for you! He won't appreciate you as long as he thinks he can keep you without giving up his independent behavior. As long as he can reat you so crudely he will not value you.

When you do go to Plan B (SOON), if you stay dark and stick to Plan B, he will discover what's missing right quick like. And if you refuse to be conned into coming out of Plan B prematurely he will finally learn what it is to respect and cherish you, to not want to risk losing you.

Sassy,
I went back and read some of your old threads. Am I correct in the fact that he has been stringing you along for 2 years? This is WRONG and you have to put a stop to it. Have you plan A'd him?

Sassy,
He has pushed you out of the Wife role and shoved you hard into the Mommy role. Most WS do this - they try to turn their spouse into a parent instead of a partner - but most of them are not quite so blatant about it.

As someone else said, if he's not cheating now he has flat-out told you that he fully intends to start doing exactly that. You are going to need Plan B very soon, or else his massive disrespect and refusal to meet your emotional needs is going to cause you serious harm (like it hasn't already).

Please give serious thought to Plan B - and as the other posters said, do NOT move out of your home so your husband can be more comfortable bringing his girlfriends over. That will only wipe out the very last shred of respect he might have had for you. Do NOT do this!
Mulan

Sassy,

Your H's words are exactly the same words my father said to my mother when he went through his mid life crisis. He said there was no one. We believe him. So did my mom. You believe him because you want to believe him and can't imagine he would violate you in such a way. Well, if he hasn't he's planning to.

You're coming to a forum that is full of people who've walked the walk and have been in your shoes. We too were in denial. If he's not having an A or philandering, as my father did, then he's thinking about it. My father wasn't in love with any of the women he "conquered". He was intoxicated with the thrill of womainizing. It cost him his marriage and it cost us dearly in other ways.

You owe it to yourself to stop denying and be skeptical. Where there is smoke there is fire. Start spying. You won't learn the truth through his mouth. He'll keep playing you like a harp. The truth will only come through a mistake on his part or snooping on yours. My mom learned by finding receipts in his pants.

What are his spending habits? Any weird charges? Have access to the phone records?

You can't tip your hand when you start snooping. Doing so will make him hide things better. You have to be very smart and very quiet and must be that way for a while. This requires that you remove your emotions from the equasion and start thinking like a cold hearted detective. Think CSI. You want to "follow the evidence".

He's blowing lots of smoke and those on this forum have heard the same words in countless cases and there is always an affair in the equation. My guess is that he's having an emotional affair with a coworker or aquaintance and wants to escalate it but doesn't want to violate his vows in the process. He already has, probably through flirting, but the big line is there to cross and he wants to do so without hurting you, which is impossible, but he wants to set it up so that he can.

Don't believe anything he says and only half of what you see. Trust us. We've been there. We're your only voices of clarity in what you're about to endure.

SG

Im sorry to say that I agree wholeheartedly with all the posters here.

Your posting is eerily familiar. My H said almost exactly what your H has been saying to you. I was CONVINCED my H was not having an A. No way. Not possible.

For 5 months, I was convinced that there was just something wrong "with me". You see, much like your H, my H had me convinced it was "me". Turns out it wasnt "me" at all but his A with my best friend.

What your H is doing is cowardly.

Let me ask you this. What makes you so sure he *isnt* having an A? Because he says so? Because it isnt in his character?

Have you proved that he is not?

One of the things that made me feel that my H wasnt having an A was that he was always home. It didnt appear that he had time or an opportunity. Well, he did. He met the OW during his lunch hour or in the early AM, when I thought the was at work. If I called him- he was "in a meeting".

This sounds like an A to me.

Thanks all.
The reasons that I don't think he is having an affair:
*He posted a profile on match.com when he moved out
*After he moved out for a couple few weeks, he came back and we dated and he spent entire weekends and several days during the week with me.
*He has made it clear he intends to date others, but he will agree to physical exclusiveness (IOW, being perfectly upfront about his position.)
*He said that there aren't many things he can be proud of in his life, but he is proud that he hasn't cheated.
*During the time he first moved out he had the opportunity to do something sexual and he couldn't keep an erection which made him realize he is way more confused about me than he thought.
*He told me that he made out with someone
*He told me he's been out on dates
*When I asked him if we were dating exclusively he said "So far, yeah." (trust me that the time lines for this statement and the comments about him going out on dates makes sense. Not enough space to explain why.) When I got PO'd at the "so far" statement he said "well, I can promise you that the sex will be exclusive; not the dating."

Those are the highlights of why I don't think he has or is *currently* cheating. Since I have no concrete evidence to the contrary (and I don't feel inclined at this point to spend $$ on a PI), let's assume he is telling the truth. Yes, I could be wrong, but if I am going to deal with him based on what he and I understand to be the reality, that is where I want to start.

Star*fish- yes, I agree he is "interviewing". He said that it is much harder to fill my shoes than he thought. That he thought when he first left that there would just be this plethora of great women to choose from-turns out there isn't. (Duh.)

In his match.com profile he had posted that he wanted a woman 25-40. He is 44. <rolls eyes> He posted a pic of him with his 06 convertible Mustang, in Ireland with his sibs, one of him in a sea-plane cockpit for a trip WE took. He said he was seperated, but in the text part said that he was "recently single after many years", "had no baggage and didn't like to play games." Whatever. I gave him such a hard time about it (once I found it) he has taken himself off the site.

Re weight loss- I have lost 70 pounds. Yes, I could lose some more. I asked him point blank if me losing more weight and working out would matter and he said "No. Not really. I mean, it be nice, sure, but that's not the issue. It wouldn't fix our situation."

I have been dealing with this waffling (hard core) for the past 3 years actually. the only thing that really keeps me going is that we have the periods where he is very much in love with me, tells me he's been a jerk, he's so lucky to have me, etc. Shoot, last year on our 9 year anniversary he was talking about renewing vows for our 10 year. But then that feeling fades away. I keep hoping I am going to find the magic bullet the ends this cycle once and for all.

I had an opportunity to do a really great Plan A when he first came back and wanted to date, but I blew it. We were having a great time, going to concerts (Stevie Wonder!) and doing stuff, but then gradually we slipped into the same old rut as before and he got morose and distant, I tried to pressure him to consider coming hom; which culminated in me asking if we were dating exclusively and him saying "so far, yeah."

Since then things have really gotten bad to the point that he said that he was feeling more sure than before that we would end up divorced.

How do you do a Plan A when your spouse has moved out; quasi came back and are now distant again? Tonight I pick him up from the airport. He went to his sis' for T-day and in the 10 days he was gone, I probably spoke to him a total of 25 minutes. We have been being sexually active, but I am starting to think I am being used. Of course, part of Plan A would include that. Easy for me to be all strong here online; when I see him I really REALLY desire him.

Re moving out of the house: I can't afford this house on my own, and even if I could, I don't want it. It's too big and has "him" written all over it. He covers all bills except I cover his rent. We both understood that at the end of the 6 month lease, he would be moving back and the only question was whether or not I would be staying.

I sell real estate so I can save on some of the costs. I could tell myself that I am buying a rental investment that I just happen to be living in temporarily. (or maybe permanently.) He wants me to be completely independent of him. So, if I am used to covering all my bills, it should be pretty easy to make up the difference between a mortgage payment and rental income (if we reconciled.)

He definitely has 'entitlement' issues.

So, what would be a Very Brief VERY good Plan A? And would a plan B letter just say I can't take his IB and that's it?

Honestly, what reason does he have for coming home? You are allowing him to live his life on his terms and "DATE" you when he feels like it! I can't believe you would even allow yourself to think of yourself as "dating" your husband.

Where is the incentive for him to change what he's doing? I say Plan B, swiftly and effectively. You are obviously meeting at least one of his top needs (SF). Stop doing it. What's the worst that could happen, he'd find someone else to do it? He's trying to find someone else to do it anyway, regardless of whether you do it or not!!

If you feel the need to try to convince yourself that your husband isn't cheating, and then you justify it by saying that he's only looking, then you are kidding yourself. What is your PLAN? Are you going to stand by for another 3 years and let him continue to treat you this way? You have allowed this to go on for way to long, IMO. Right now, I see your plan is to lay down and be a doormat for this man and allow him to trample all over you and your feelings, then he can come have sex with you when and if he wants, then he gets to live the life he wants without the constraints of marriage...all the while being married. Every guy's dream, right? That's crazy!

Plan B him. Get a legal separation and protect your finances. Tell him that there is only room for two people in your marriage and if he wants to look for another wife then he can do it after you are divorced. You've taken way too much crap for too long and if you don't finally stand up for yourself, your obvious low self-esteem will only get lower.

Sassygal - I wish I could find all my old posts where I sounded just like you. My WH had me convinced there was no OW. He was NOT committed to our marriage for 2 years. Some times he would be very distant and other times very loving. I snooped and would find emails to and from other women, but WH was soooo convincing that there was no OW. I foolishly believed him for a long time.

My WH just moved out. Says he wants a divorce. STILL denies OW. There is one..has been the same one off and on for 2 years. My WH has been in a long term affair for 2 years. I was stupid to ignore and pretend it wasn't exhisting.

You are getting some good advice. Please listen to them and do not be a doormat like I was. Seems like it is time for Plan B. Protect yourself.

Update: (as posted on another site (in case this looks like a repeat to anyone.)

Well, picked up H late last night at the airport. Romp in the hay last night and this morning. After breakfast I asked what was going on with Christmas and New Years and he told me he was going to New York. Oh. Well, I guess then I don't have to be driven crazy knowing he is here local and not with me.

He said that he had talked briefly with his sis and uncle about our situation. But he didn't have any news. No lightening bolt hit him. His bottom line- I shouldn't count on him for anything. I had him elaborate and he said that we should proceed with me buying an investment house to live in. That I should try to find a foreclosure or maybe a fixer. I said "uh- I can't do all the handywork in a fixer" and he said "oh, well of course I'd be happy to help." (yeah, I don't think so. If I go buy a house, I am going to have to go completely dark.)

At one point I teared up and he said "I don't want to lead you on. I don't know what the ****** I am doing. I hate that I keep hurting you." as he wiped a tear from my cheek.
I said "so, you're just leading me on?" Him "No. I just don't know what I am doing." He wants me to move forward with my life (that's what he meant by don't count on him.) And if he comes back then we can make the adjustments.

I told him that I was really concerned financially; that I didn't want to deplete the nest egg and that I didn't think I could totally support myself without dipping into it and he said that he could "help" me. We also agreed that no one is filing anything; that things would be status quo until he could figure out what he wanted. Oh,and I said "You know the downpayment could have been a motorhome or all sorts of cool things" and he said "If we get back together, we are both able bodied--we'll be able to get what we want--and it's not like we'll lose money having real estate." (Obviously he isn't watching the rest of the country.)

He is still considering moving to another state/warmer climate. He hates living in the apartment. He just doesn't know what he wants with his life. Sometimes he wants to be with me and sometimes he doesn't. I said "well, you miss me" and he said "of course, I'll always miss you. I love you."

I said that I still held out hope because we have a really good foundation and he said "yes, we do. But BOTH people have to want to participate." *sigh*

It finished up with me saying "So, you just *have* to do this the hard way huh?" and he said "you mean because you know I'll be back?" and I said "yup. I will try to forgive you for putting me thru this; but you need to know that the spouses that were left and returned to are really MAD because they had to stuff their feelings for so long. Be aware it's HARD work."

Had some chit chat conversation regarding gutters, mail, etc.

He gathered up his stuff, gave me a nice kiss goodbye and left.

Every time I sleep (literally and figuratively) with him, kiss him, say goodbye, eat a meal with him, I always wonder "is THIS the last time I will ever do this with him?"

So, there it is. I guess I need to go and find a house. Merry F'in Christmas and Happy F'in New Year to me. BOOOOOO!

He has made no contact since I last saw him Tuesday. (I figured that would happen.)

I feel resistant to a Plan B letter for some reason. Especially since our finances are so intertwined. As I mentioned before, he pays all bills for everything, and I cover his rent. He has said he would "help" me when I move out. I guess I need to ask him directly what that means. His check goes into our joint account and I pay the bills out of that account. He gets $$ put into a seperate account for his food, gas, play money. I transfer $$ out of the joint account for my food, gas, play money. We have some bill pays that are directly drafted out of the joint account.

Looked at houses today. YUCK,YUCK and more YUCK. *sigh*

Buuuut, I also went and looked at a rental that is around $1000 LESS than a comparable houses' mortgage. (IOW, rent is $1500 and if I purchased the house the mortgage would be $2500.) The owner will want to sell in about a year. It's at the top of my price range and normally I would really want to own, but saving $1000/mo is signifigant-and I don't think I would be saving that much by having the tax write off and I don't anticipate a lot of appreciation next year, so there is no loss there (compared to homeownership). This way I can get into the house, see if it's a good fit and see if I can save the extra $1000/mo. If I can, then I will know I can afford the mortgage. It is SOOOOOO cute.

I was really scared to call and tell the owner that I wanted it; but I just did call and told him. My first step in that direction!!! EEK! Next step start seriously packing. Next step after that-rent a PODS and put stuff in there.

Wow. Am I really doing this??