TMTS,

Focus Dude!

You need to figure out her ENs and meet them. You need to identify your own love busting behaviors and eliminate them. You need to be pleasant, up beat, cheerful and enthusiastic when you are with her.

Discussing the real problem will not get you into recovery. Trying to get her to commit will not save your marriage.

Dr Harley's most basic premise is that the feeling of love is a response to stimulus similar to Pavlov's dogs that salivated at the sound of the bell though no food was forthcoming because they had been conditioned to expect the food. Your job is to make your wife's time with you so enjoyable that she feels good just by being with you...THIS is what the feeling of love is.

Your job is to provide that stimulus so that she will have that response.

Just being with you needs to make her happy. You can't do that by making her admit she is doing something wrong and trying to beat her (verbally or intellectually) into submission.

What this means is that you should do things that attract her, not things that make her fear spending time with you. Date her, have fun with her, make her feel special, make her think you are special.. Nothing more right now.

I think the number 1 mistake folks make around here is trying to recover their marriage while an affair is still going on. You can't do it that way. First you have to save your marriage or you won't have one left to recover. You won't save it by fixing it, only by making it stronger through...Plan A...Meet her ENs and avoid love busters. If she loves you, which she will do if you fill her love bank, which means...meet her ENs and avoid love busters...then and only then can you think about what to do to FIX what is broken because she will buy into what you are trying to do.

You have to do all of this over and over again with NOTHING expected back from her and in spite of what she says, does or threatens. NO ULTIMATUMS! NO BEGGING! NO ARGUING! NO PLEADING! NO ATTEMPTS TO BREAK THROUGH WITH LOGIC OR SYMPATHY!

Don't throw up your hands and say "I've screwed this up!" Focus on what has to happen and keep doing it until your love for her is almost gone then you can do Plan B if she isn't home by then.

At the same time any exposure that needs to happen needs to get over with as soon as possible.

And just so you know, seldom does real NC begin the first few attempts. The WS is addicted to the affair partner. It will be like trying to get sa crack head to give up their pipe...and just like that crack head, you can't reason with the WS and convince them to give it up...You have to offer something better and that has to be you...

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the jolt back to reality. Up until yesterday, I was doing what you described to a T. Then I made the fatal mistake of asking her what the point of prolonging the inevitable was if her decision to leave was already made. She is still in the house but sleeping in the basement. We started making a list of things that we would have to change over, like out joint bank account and credit cards. It was a good conversation no LBs from either side. I suspect that it will be 1-2 months before she finds something. What can I do now? Do I simply revert back to Plan A mode and continue on?

Think you can go a whole month without talking about the relationship? Think you can go an entire month just being there for her with nothing in return? Think you can fight for your marriage by spending time with her doing fun stuff and not trying to force her into giving up her addiction, all the while trying to respectfully ask that she not cross your boundaries.

A whole month with no DJs, no AOs and ignoring her IB...Give it a try and see what happens. No guarantees here. Plan A seldom destroys the affair and makes everything fine, but unless there is a good Plan A, there is nothing that can come from Plan B other than the end of fighting over the affair.

The Better your Plan A the more likely she will be to miss you during Plan B. If you devote Plan A time to making her uncomfortable around you and arguing and fighting about her actions, then when Plan B starts, she will feel nothing but relieved to be away from you.

Make Plan A about making her happy so that if and when you get to Plan B she remembers you as someone who makes her happy...

Mark

Mark,

Thanks, I will go with that plan. I also intend to help her in finding a place and helping her move. Do you think that's advisable as part of a Plan A? Financially she will also need some help to get started, what about helping her out with that? I was thinking of buying some of the furniture she would need.

Right now it's everybody's pain that is causing some tension in the house, but everything has been amicable up until now, I can't say that there has been no DJs or AOs at all, but they have been few (From both sides).

The only part I think that will be hard to get around is her EN (A, SF, RC) how do I do that now that she's in the basement and has told me that she is leaving? Or should I concentrate more on the ENs that she is not putting much consideration to and I am good at, like DS, and FS, FC, H&O, C.

Thanks

NO!



NO!



I think you should put emphasis on the ENs that she's allowing you to meet. Avoid the LBs, DJs, AOs and the like, and she make start allowing you to meet the others.

Nope!

You need to do nothing to enable the affair...

I see on your other thread that she has suggested an open relationship...

This is a sign that she doesn't want to give you up, so you are way ahead of the game in that regard.

Meet her ENs, avoid LBs...Do nothing to enable the affair or to discuss separation. Don't do anything that makes it easy for her to leave you for OM. Don't love bust, but don't give her unlimited freedom to pursue OM.

Don't finance the affair. If she wants to leave, let her, but don't make it easy for her by giving her money or things she needs to do so. If she wants to leave, it is up to her to figure out how to afford it. If you help her leave...she will be gone.

Your mantra needs to be..."I'm fighting for my family." Repeat it often when she tries to get you to buckle to her whims and help her run off to be with OM and says you are controlling her if you don't help her do so. If she brings up divorce, tell her there's time for that after you've done everything to save your family. If she asks for money to get a place to live, tell her that you need the money to save the family home and can't afford to help finance tearing the family apart.

You have to be loving and supportive without being a doormat.

Find a copy of Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud. I can give you a link if you need it. Read it soon.

I have some discussion of the concept of boundaries in my Musings thread linked in my signature line. I also have some stuff on Plan A and Plan B as well as links to resources on this site and others. If you haven't read it, do so.

Mark

Thanks guys. Should the way I approach meting her ENs change now that she has decided to leave? I also have holiday time coming up during the X-Mas holiday and was planning to go visit my folks out of town with my kids. She is working and will only be there for a few days (Her folks live 5 mins away from mine). Do you think this time apart is a good or bad idea?

The other thing I wonder is how I handle Plan a once she is out of the house? It will be even harder to meet ENs when I will not see her much.

I have started reading your suggested posts.
I understand the what's, but I'm struggling with the how.

I have not given up the fight, but like others have said I can't stop her if she decides to go. Thanks for the advice on supporting her move.

She isn't out of the house yet.

Address that issue once it happens. You have time to stop it from happening if you follow a good Plan A until the day arrives and if you don't help her to leave.

If you are going to your folk's place without her, expect her to balk at joining you if she has contact with OM while you are gone. If she arrives where you are...Plan A your butt off.

Speaking of her parents...Do they know what is going on and about the affair? They should know! Do your folks know? They should. Does OM have anyone in his life that doesn't know that also needs to know about it?

Mark

No she's still there. I took your advice about not helping her leave. (We are in the middle of re-financing our mortgage, of which we had asked for extra money to redo the kitchen. I had talked to her about taking some of that money, but I called my mortgage broker this morning and arranged to have the mortgage reduced to just enough to cover our outstanding debts.)At this point I don't think she is planning to join us at my folks place. She will go to hers and make arrangements to pick up the kids for X-Mas morning. (We celebrate the evening before, so that works out for the kids). As far as the parents knowing, yes, hers have known for a few weeks, and I told mine this weekend. Her Mother is especially disappointed in her and had tried to convince her that she is doing the wrong thing. As for the OM, I know nothing about him except that he has a 13 son from a previous relationship in a different city. There is really no one I can expose him to that would help my case.

I'm ready to implement a "good" Plan A, but we have now turned the discussion to separation matters... i.e. separating joint account, changing name on the utility bills, and for the first time today she mentioned equity in the house. (Which is not that much).

I don't think that the affection I had been showing would be of any benefit anymore as she is living in the basement but I can work on the other Ends.

Mark, your comments and suggestions are very much appreciated. I feel like I've been hit by a truck, so please understand that my thought process might not be too good right now. That being said, you posts are helpful.

I have not given up yet and don't intend to for the foreseeable future.

TMTS,

The point of Plan A is to rebuild those feelings she once had for you. You out-affair the OM.

By filling her LB$, she starts having that "spark" again and becomes more open to letting you meet those ENs OM is meeting. Given enough time, think months rather than days here, she should begin to reconnect with you.

While in Plan A you should expect nothing in return from her. Your work must be precise and intense and fairly short in duration. Dr Harley suggests that a man can do a good Plan A for up six months and a woman can pull it off for about three months.

If by the end of that time the affair is still going on and no progress is being made it is time to go to Plan B. At that point you withdraw yourself from dealing with her while she is engaged in the disrespectful activity of the affair and save any love you have left for the day when the affair finally ends, which statistically it should do of its own accord within two years in about 95% of all cases.

Just so you know, I was once as lost and confused as you are. It was reading and understanding everything I could find on this site, including threads of others who were going through the same things or who had been through it before that were the greatest help in understanding what I needed to do and what my focus needed to be. It isn't easy to just do Plan A stuff when it seems that it is having no effect or her, but it IS having an effect. Since it didn't take a few weeks to get to this point in your marriage, you can't expect it to be all better in a few weeks either. Your efforts are cumulative rather than explosive. There is no magic bullet that makes it all OK. It is hard work, sustained over time that does the trick.

Mark

Understood. I'll keep reading.
I'm wondering if Plan a will work better when she has moved out, because now I will be the one with the possibility of courting her and showing her that I am if fact capable of meeting he ENs.
I promised another senior member that I would share my plans prior to implementing anything. So here it goes...

She started looking for an apartment yesterday (Dec, 2) I don't know that I can bring myself to force her to find something for Jan 1. (It's my youngest B-Day on Jan 3 as well). So I though of this as a plan. I ask her to move out by Feb.1, I get her off the joint account and remove all access for her (Or just close it and open a new one under my name only). She keeps her salary and pays me $75.00 rent and board until that time. If she wants any extra spending money she can then use her own.

Please let me know if this makes any sense, and if it is consistent with a good Plan A.

Thanks

Why are you trying to get her to move out?

Why not just try to keep her home and make progress by hard work and effort?

I don't care what she says about wanting to leave and you shouldn't either. Your best chance at success is for her to stay home unless you have to go to Plan B later.

No dates for anything to happen by. No attempts to get her beg for forgiveness...Just work the Plan without reacting to what she says, does or suggests.

Mark

Please don't get me wrong, the last thing I want is for her to move out. I still love her as much as I did when I married her. The decision to move out was hers, and it's been in her mind for months now. This started as an EA in August of 2006 and was discovered last June. We went to counseling and though we were working things out. Nov. 4th is when she dropped that he had moved closer and that it became a PA. I'm just looking for a way to extend the time she is here. She wants to move out before X-mas, so if I can find a way to have her wait it out a little longer it will give me more time to work on Plan A. I hope that makes sense.

I just don't know what to do next. She was ready to move in with a neighbour last night (Largely due to my pushing...misunderstanding of Plan B). But I convinced her that it wasn't fair to the neighbour to have this dropped on her lap. So she decided to move to the basement.

Should I hold off on changing any accounts until I know for sure that she is leaving?

Thanks
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Your WS isn't acting in your interest. While you may not have to actually change any accounts at the moment, you should take steps to protect your financial interests. WS's are typically under the mistaken impression that all marital assets are theirs to use as they please, even to further their A.

I did much better last night. I got home, asked her how her day was, we talked for a few minutes about lack of sleep, then she showed me her plan for getting a cell phone plan instead of a land line, I listened and asked if she had checked into calling cards to save herself money on long distance. So far so good... then she said she was sorry for doing this to me (The A that is), I told her that I understood the reasons why she did it and asked her if we could not talk about the past right now as we have much do to looking forward. I made a conscious effort to be kind and understanding, I even took her by the hand and told her that either way we would all get through this and proceeded to kiss her hand. That was the good part... Then I went downstairs to check my e-mail before she went to bed and when I saw my oldest daughter at the computer, I could not hold back the tears any longer, I told her I was sorry that this was happening to our family but that we would all get through it. I could tell she was more angry than sad. She stomped upstairs and my WW yelled up at her to stop. My daughter then told let my WW what her feelings are on the situation (Yes, she told the children that she was moving out). It was not pretty. She basically told her that she was very angry at her for wanting to leave, and that running away was not how to solve a problem. By the time I got back upstairs my WW was alone in the living room very upset at what she had just heard. I asked her if I could do anything, or get her anything, and she responded by asking me not to be so nice, that she didn't deserve it and that the only thing she did deserve was what my daughter had just told her. Then she reminded me that I had warned her that this would be her reaction. So I got my WW a glass of water and a Tylenol PM, and then went to talk to my daughter to try to calm her down a little. We talked for about half an hour and it took some work to get her to open up about what she was feeling. I did my best to reassure her that her mother is not doing this because of anything her or her sister had done or not done, and that there was no excuse for what she did, but there were reasons. I explained a little on how my WW did not feel she was getting enough attention and affection from me. I don't think she bought it, she was just still too mad. A little later she went downstairs looking for her MP3 player and got into a screaming match with her mother. They were in the basement and it was loud enough to wake me up on the third floor. I made sure they were both ok then tried to get to sleep myself.
This morning I could tell that my WW had not slept well at all. I think the reality of her actions is setting in now and she is having a hard time dealing with it.
I don’t know if it’s making her think twice or not, but I will continue to do all I can to meet the ENs that she will let me and be there for my kids as well.

keep trying! (((prayers for you)))

TMTS,

I only have a minute so I'll keep this short (What a relief that must be)

NO expectations.

No Expectations.

NO expectations.


I assume DD Knows WHY Mom is moving out as well. If not she should, IMO.

No relationship talks w/ WW. No commiserating with her over lost love of the past.

Plan A...ENs met, no LBs...

That is all...

NO EXPECTATIONS!

Mark

Thanks Mark,
That's the attitude I went into it with last night. She started on the relationship talk and I managed to make it very short. I paid special attention to having no LBs and would take any opportunity I could to meet an EN.
My DD is fully aware of why she is moving out and what happened from the ES to knowledge of the PA. She is extremely angry at her mother and we have been supporting each other quite a bit. We spent over 1 hr talking last night just about her feelings, because I didn't want her to do like I did when I was in her position and just bottle everything up. I explained to her in more detail than she ever knew about my father's A when I was 14 and the fact that I never dealt with the pain until recently.

I will repeat your words to myself....

NO EXPECTATIONS, NO EXPECTATIONS, NO EXPECTATIONS.

Keep beating into me...I truly appreciate your candor and the time you are taking to help straighten me out.
Thanks

TMTS,
Just one thing re DD...Be careful how much you put her. At 13, she IS in need of your support, however, she is NOT equipped to support YOU. For her sake, pls make sure you are not leaning on her - that's what IC, family and adult friends are for...

I say this because I know how easy it is to do. I have to remind myself every day when dealing w/ my two teens - that I'm the parent...and that's my job. They are the kids, and while they appear very grown up, you need to work very hard to not hasten the end of their childhood...

My .02

L2F

OBTW, it's GREAT news that WW is still in the house! Don't HELP her move out, don't MAKE her move out. Don't ENCOURAGE her to move out...

Your job...

NO LBs
NO DJs
NO expectations....

Thanks L2F, Point taken. I did have that moment of weakness last night, but then became her support system. It is a good reminder for me though. I promised myself last night that I would not break down in front of her, her sister or her mother. I had no one to lean on when I was the child, and I need to remember that I'm talking to her as her 40 year old father and not the 14year old.

Yes, she's still living in the house, but the A is not over, so I still have much work to do.

Don't worry about me doing my job.... Mark is slapping it into me when ever I remotely think of going off path.... and it's very much appreciated.

I do have a question... Do any of you think it would be a good idea to send her a copy of Truehearts letter posted in notable posts? Considering that she is still in contact with the OM, it makes me wonder if it would be advisable. On the other hand my DD really shook her up last night.
But with no expectations...right Mark?

Thanks to all.