NC has not happened, she says that it's only been three phone calls, but that's probably a lie. WW still in the fog.
I'm thinking of hiring a P.I. to dig something up on this guy because I have nowhere to expose him.
The only place I have not exposed my WW is at her work. This had nothing to do with her work so I can't see it doing any good.
Both our parents know, as well as all our closest friends. Everybody is shocked and dismayed. Those who have talked to her can't get thought the fog either. She actually said that she thinks her Mothers motivation has more to do with social status than anything else. That's thick fog for you.

Here's how I'm thinking of dealing with the expenses.

Since we refinanced the mortgage to pay off debt that we both incurred, and you are still living here I think it's fair that you pay a share of the expenses while your still here. I think $100.00 per week is more than fair. Do you agree?

I do know his name and I am trying to get his phone number, but no luck as of yet. I saw on the internet that there are reverse search services that can get all kinds of background info.

TMTS,

If you can afford the PI that would be the best way to get info IMO. Online search database aka: reverse lookup, works but costs as well, though less than a PI. A PI however can get you information that he can generate himself and so he has more options than just what is public record.

If you have his name and an approximate address, you can try the online white pages. Also do a Google search on the guy and it might tie him to an employer or give you other info you never dreamed possible.

Once you do have a phone number, BTW, Google can often give you reverse lookup for that as well, though it will simply return name and address.

If you can find an email address, that can often be found through search engines as well.

I verified OMs identity by using Google and his phone number. Once I had the name, I knew who he was so didn't have to go any further. When I confronted my wife I did so with cellphone, home phone and email records from about a 2 month period. I had it all laid out on paper with time-lines for calls, followed by email and followed up with another call. Though I did not have the actual emails, she assumed I did. Much of what I had was conjecture based on combined call records and email traces. Exposure began as soon as I verified who OM was and I turned up the heat for about the next two weeks, widening the circle of who knew almost daily. If I had it to do over again, I'd have done it all at once, but would have included others as well as those I did expose to.

OM's W knew before I did and they already were legally separated by the time I found out. I actually knew of the beginning stages because OM's W had informed me that something was going on, but we had to threaten legal action against her in order to have her stop harassing both of us and there was a written NC letter sent to both OM and his W on our lawyer's letterhead that stopped the insanity of what was going on with her calling us at all hours and even calling my W at work. We counseled a few times with someone locally and it looked like recovery was swift and on target.

Then, after 13 months of NC, she found out, from someone who lived near OM that he and his W had separated and she initiated contact again. It spiraled quickly out of control from there and within days I knew something was up. Within two weeks I was pretty sure what and within 6 weeks I knew who and lowered the boom.

The first 6 weeks were ****** because of continued contact. After that she was depressed and so was I for about 2 1/2 more months, then things began to improve.

We still aren't where we need to be. We're back to where we were, but that isn't good enough for me any more and it apparently wasn't good enough for her either, but she doesn't seem willing or able to pursue the next level of recovery as of yet, though I have been turning up the heat lately.

None of this is easy. As much as we would like to get back to the blind unmerited trust we once had, it doesn't really happen. It shouldn't have been so before, but it is how we assumed it would be once we married, so that is the way we saw it.

One of the hardest things for a WS to realize, I think, is that while they see the progression as falling out of love with their S and then falling in love with OP, it is usually the other way around. So many of the bad things they can list that pertain to the marriage and the BS are all things they thought up in order to justify what they are doing and feeling. In some cases, that is not true, but I believe it is in most.

What you have to do is make her fall in love with you all over again. She is saying she has been unhappy for years, she doesn't love you, maybe never really did and a lot of stuff that is hard to hear. But all of that is based on a model of love being something magical that happens to us and we are helpless to resist. If I fall in love with someone else, it has to be that I am not in love with my spouse, so this new love must be the real deal.

According to Dr H, the new might be the real deal, but so was the old. It doesn't feel like it is anymore because of various factors. Some have to do with the BS actions such as LBs and failing to meet certain ENs in a way that can make a difference. But some have to do with external triggers as well and the typical person's inability to identify a possible temptation before a threshold is reached and protect against it.

When I meet someone who is attractive to me, normally we do not have continued contact and nothing happens. But if that new girl at work begins to flirt with me and I can recognize that she is a threat to my marriage, perhaps not today when things are going well at home, but if things were not so good at home, then I can protect myself in several ways. I can minimize contact with her, never flirt with her in return, inform her that I am married and wish for her to stop flirting with me, ask for a transfer or even quit my job. Lots of things can be done to prevent myself from allowing her to meet ENs that only my W should be allowed to meet.

But I have to decide all of this before there is a problem at home or my wife has to leave to care for a sick parent in another state or I will remain vulnerable to allowing that flirting to get to me at a time when I am weakest. This is the lesson the WS needs to learn to be truly recovered and earn the F to become a FWS.

The problem for the BS is that we can't learn it for the WS and we can't educate them about it either, especially when they are involved in an A which is all about their feelings and has nothing to do with reality. All JMO.

You also need to be ultra-clean in your dealings with all women because as this goes on you become more vulnerable yourself. The fact that you are giving without getting anything in return means that your ENs are going totally unmet and that leaves you open to fall to the first temptation to come down the road. And while you might now say "Not gonna happen..." when the time comes it is not nearly as easy to pass up as it sounds. Now is the time to decide what you will do to avoid it yourself, because when it starts to happen, you will not be able to simply resist and succeed. It will begin small, a smile from someone who strikes you as interesting or attractive. Failure to walk away then starts the process that is a slope so slippery that it cannot easily be overcome.

That is how a WS becomes wayward and the world is full of revenge affairs, justified because, "He/she did it first..."

Your request for financial help sounds good to me, but I would drop the question as to whether or not she is agreeable. I'd just state it and walk away rather than leaving it open to debate. If she comes back with a counter offer, what would you do? To her "fair" means you will help her move out so she can spend time boinking OM and justify it because "the marriage is really over already." Trust me on this, that is the way she is thinking right now. Draw a line in the sand and enforce it.

If you do get a lucid moment, you might want to mention that from what you have read in your hours of research (build this up good to show how much work you are already doing toward trying to understand what is happening), you understand that if she were to commit to NC for say, 6 months and really put forth the effort to work on the marriage, all research says that her feelings for you should return. But you have to wait for a hole in the fog before bringing this up so you aren't just shut down with.."But I don't WANT to feel that way about you anymore..." If you do get the shot, it is worth taking, but then just change the subject or walk away because it needs time to brew before it can have any effect.



Mark

Can I come live there for $100/week?

:P

You're doing good and getting good advice.

So far so good. She did open up new bank accounts today, but I put on a brave face and talked about how her day was. Later on I dropped few things on her lap... One was that I was not giving up on our marriage and her just yet... then I asked her if she would be willing to read truehearts letter to WSs. She actually asked a few questions about it and seemed intrigued (Or she was just putting on a show, but the tears welling up gave her away). Then I dropped the bombshell... she mentioned that she didn't know if she could get those feelings back and had started to loose them before she met the OM, so I asked her if things might be different right now if she had not met him. She couldn't answer... I think that question caulght her off guard because the discussion was very light in nature. So I started in to how much reading I had done in the last few months and that if she had NC with the OM that the feeling had a good chance of returning with some hard work. I started to educate, but caught myself about 20 sec. into it and stopped. So I asked her if she had heard about the mall shooting, and we read some web articles on it. Next I talked to her about continuing to contribute to paying off the expenses, and she agreed to do so with no arguments. We settled on $80 per week. This by percentage of salary works out to be pretty fair. It was either that or start getting into LBs for $20 a week, not perfect but OK.
Thanks for your guidance Mark!!!

Wow - only $80 a week? My family is quite similar to yours (we're both in our early 40's, and we have 2 daughters). Our annual budgeted expenditure works out to about US$3,000 per month, when loans and mortgages are included. $80 a week would be like a drop in the bucket...

Any, I take it as a good sign that she's willing to contribute. Did you discuss your full budget before coming to that figure, or was it more "wet finger in the air"?

BTW, the more you can safely engage your WW in family stuff like this (i.e. without LB'ing), the more difficult it will be for her to decide simply cut ties and move out. I think the trick is to do things that lead to her feeling wanted and needed, without coming across as being needy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I based it on how much we both made per year.
I did do so well later on... I started reading SAA and decided to read her the passgaes of Jon and Sue. Asked her if their story sounded familiar, then started talking about what I had read told me and that her decisions would have lasting consequesces when it came to the relationship with er DDs. I repeated that I still loved her and that given the chance we could work this out, but only if she was willing to give up the OM and have NC. She said that she was not willing to do that. I was calm to matter of fact, it wasn't as light as the earlier discussion but it was open and frank. For the first time in a long time I feel like she was not teying to hide anything. so we plug along...

(((TMTS))) Keep listening to Mark, pay attention to what he tells you!!! You are getting good advice.

Thanks MVG, kept telling myself last night to be calm and strong... but especially NO EXPECTATIONS. Just planting seeds for her to think about in the days, weeks and months to come.
I saw a little break in the fog last night and took the shot that Mark suggested. She didn't shut it down until later on, but I think I got her really thinking now. Everybody that I have exposed this to tells me that when they talk to her she seems very confused. I know Mark's not going to like this next comment but, I hope for her sake that she sees clarity before my bank is in the red. I know... be patient.
No heavy talks tonight. Got to try to get some sleep.

I'm going to wait a week and then drop trueheart's letter to WS on her. I planted that seed last niught too.

TMTS,

Do you even read the advice people give you?

No relationship talks.

No EXPECTATIONS.

NO EXCEPTIONS.

Asking her to read Trueheart's letter helped how?
She made you feel worth even less.
She re-entrenched her positions that this isn't about OM (though we all know it has everything to do with OM)
She now has another piece of your strategy.
She probably knows where you are getting your advice and could begin lurking here, figure out your user name and see what people are telling you to do. Nothing like having the other team's playbook a month before the Superbowl.



Actually this is something I agree with whole-heartedly. Before your LB$ is in the red, you have to be ready for plan B. But for Plan B to be any more than a waiting game it has to be preceded by a brilliant Plan A. Make hay while the sun shines, my friend.

What you have to understand is that you are having certain expectations. You do something good and useful toward Plan A and then since it is going well...try to add to it in some way. Then she gets to give you another dig and hurt you some more and your expectations are shot all to h3ll...

You see, there are a couple of different ways to sell things. One is to lay out all of your presentation at once and then try to close. If the customer balks at signing, you go back and overcome each objection and try to close again.

The problem with this method is that some folks just never run out of objections. So you spend all of your time trying to reason with them and in the mean time other customers are lost due to lost opportunity and hearing this guys objections.

Another way to sell things is by trying to find a specific need that the customer has and presenting the product in such a way that this specific need is addressed completely. It may only be one facet of the product, but it can do what they need it to do, so you dwell on that over and over. You get them to agree that this need is fulfilled by your product, get a nod from them that it is what they want (a simple close on a simple part of the overall whole) and then like after any closing question...you stop talking...you don't show them all the other things it does...You don't tell them it comes in 17 other colors...You don't explain the warranty and return policy...You just shut up...

The second method is the way Plan A is supposed to work. You are selling yourself. You find a need that OM is not meeting as well as the ones he is meeting. You focus on these things. You do them to the exclusion of all other things including trying to teach her what you know. You don't correct her thinking about her choices. You don't try to establish dialog about the relationship. You don't do anything that makes her want to run away from you. You just meet her needs and control your own LBing behavior.

The day is fast approaching when you might have to begin Plan B and so you need to begin thinking about that and figure out what you will do to start it at some point. Like Plan A it does have a specific goal in mind and like Plan A it is not something that she is in control of. Plan A lets you become better at meeting ENs and avoiding LBs and so is all about you, not her.

Plan B is designed to protect any love you have left for her and just ignore the drama of the affair and her issues while waiting without expectations for the affair to burn out by itself. So this too is all about you and not her or what she is doing.

But first you have to take your current opportunity and use it to your advantage. Plan A your a$$ off. No LBs. Meet her ENs, especially the ones you meet better than OM but the ones he meets for her as well.

Don't try to gage your progress along the way; winning at half-time isn't your goal; just repeat it all over and over again. Every time you stop and try to close her, she objects, your hopes are dashed further, your LB$ is depleted, you love bust in some subtle way or just come across as needy, which does the same thing, and she reinforces her position and it becomes harder to sell.

Mark

Sorry, you must feel like your wasting your time.
I know it got the best of me later last night, and you’re right about the subtle LBs. I was doing it quite well earlier in the night, but your also right on the money about gauging my progress along the way and about trying to close so I got to keep telling myself NO EXPECTATIONS, and just SHUT UP! You could not be more right about trying to add more when a good Plan A segment has happened. I need to do it and let it go.
The realization of what I did hit me about 15 mins after I went to bed, and I've been a wreck ever since.
I'm going to get the SAA book out of sight tonight and make sure that I get rid of all traces of being on MB.

I've just been in panic mode and I need to stop. Whenever I do something that seems right I follow it up with something dumb. No wonder she want's to leave.

TMTS,

You're still missing my point. You can leave SAA out in plain site if you want. you don't have to hide MB from her, but don't try to lead her here yet. Leave Trueheart's letter laying around for her to find, but don't try to hand it to her because that says..."You are wrong; I am right and here is proof..."

She is impulsive and won't likely follow through on anything that requires research, but you don't want her to be lurking and intercepting your specific plans.

You on the other hand are reactive at this point. That is what you have to overcome more than anything. The point of having a plan is that it is something you do on purpose from start to finish. It does not depend on what she says, does or suggests. You do your part, the part you control, the part that is you and forget about what she does in response until you see a weakness in her defenses. Then you exploit that weakness.

Example: You discussed budgetary and financial things and she was receptive. You might have been able to go over the entire budget with her and show here what expenses there are and what it takes to run a household. This might put a little fear into her as to what she is getting herself into. If she remained open, you might have even been able to steer the conversation toward what the cost of the affair has lready been.

But when she hesitates even slightly at accepting what you are saying...shut up and go to something completely different..."Enough of that right now; it's too depressing to think about. Hey, what do you want for dinner?" (or invite her to the Christmas party at work, the neighbor's NY celebration, the seminar on finances at the local library...anything else at all.

It's like boxing...jab, jab, jab, jab...stick and run...jab, jab, jab...right hook...then go to a neutral corner to see if she can continue. If you try to slug it out toe to toe, you will get your brains beat out because her fantasy is bigger, stronger and faster than you are...because it is just a fantasy and not real. it doesn't have any feelings or needs...

Mark

You are 100% right on this!!! I start talking and loose sight of the goal. I'm trying to do too much. I need to let things fester for a while.
Your also right about how she is taking this as I'm write and your wrong when I tell her things like most professionals agree that the chances of an affair working out is very slim. SHUT UP, SHUT UP, SHUT UP.

NO EXPECTATION AND SHUT UP
Thanks

TMTS,

I'm going to give you a recommendation and I think you should consider it seriously.

Call Steve Harley for a specific plan for your situation. SH can cut to the chase faster than weeks of counseling with most ICs and might be able to help you avoid some of your reactionary tendencies by giving you specific things to do ahead of time so that you aren't flying blind all the time.

I'm not saying I won't help you as much as I can, but I do work in retail and don't have a lot of time this time of year so I can't walk you through one step at a time and there will be days that I don't get here at all during the next month.

Link to the coaching center is at the top of the page on the nav bar.

Just something for you to consider while you still have a chance to Plan A before she moves out.

Mark

TMTS,

Go read Midwesthusband and Shocked's threads.

They're in similar situations and the advice they are getting might help you as well.

Have you read my Musings thread linked in my sig line? There are links including some for other sources off site to look at on page 4 and 5. And if you are into fishing, check the fishing thread as well as it is so much more than just fishing.


Mark

Edited to add: read Tuco's thread too.

I'm set up to talk to JH tonight.

Thanks

TMTS,

Perfect! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just think you'd be so far ahead of the game to get real professional advice so you know what to do and can act rather than reacting to what happens as it happens. That way you can have an idea that you can have as an underlying theme and not have to ask for help as much and can begin to solve some of this yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I love helping and for whatever reason, I seem to be your go to guy right now. But I do have my own marriage to keep working on and a job that is becoming more like feeding time at the zoo as we get closer to Christmas.

My desire is not to stop posting to you, but rather to see you develop your own skills and ideas to the place where you don't have to post every 30 minutes and wait for an answer before acting.

What have you read? Have you read SAA? Have you read the Q&A columns on infidelity? Have you read any of the threads I directed you to? This is where all of the advice you might get here comes from. By reading it and understanding it or knowing what questions to ask, you will become more able to make decisions that don't move you further from your goal, but keep you pointed and moving toward it, assuming your goal is a recovered and restored marriage that is better than before.

Keep me posted. And if you are given advice by the real pros that contradicts anything I or anyone else has been telling you, please let us know so we can adjust our thinking as well. This is still a learning process for all of us, though some might not admit to that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mark

TMTS,

Let us know how tonight's session goes.

I didn't mean to suggest that you shouldn't post, BTW, just that I wanted you to get some real help rather than relying on me 'cause my job is getting crazy busy and in days to come I might not get here much at all.

Mark

You have been a beacon for me Mark! I needed that push. I'm about half way though your musings thread. It helped quite a bit. Especially when you talk about the magic answer, which is the mode I’m in. I read half of the SSA last night (Up to the reconciliation section). I started reading Midwest thread and his original story, but I couldn't get through it today (I hurt for him). But I will finish it. I might only have three week now to do a good Plan A, she’s talking about moving in the first week of Jan (But she has not got a place yet).
I will let you know how things go and thanks for helping out this block head.

Thanks again, you're a good man!