Another newbie needs help. He's on the Divorcing/Divorced forum and is named Ilovedebbie. He's as anguished and confused as we all were. I think he needs more help than I have time for right now.

Thanks Y'all.

Mark

MArk, I just wanted to sya that I think that you did an excellent job...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yes, he did!

To answer a question posed to me, I live in Virginia. I am getting tired of sitting on the fence with my wife.I am an action oriented person, and I want to plan a course of action for my life either with or without my wife. I would prefer to do it with her, but I can't control her. After reading HNHN yesterday, and I've started reading HNHN for parents today, I can actually pinpoint where we started having problems, and in my mind, it would be completely simple to repair whatever damage has been done. But as our therapist told her, the only way for this to work is for her to shut the door on the other man. That is what she is debating about right now. Although everyone says the grass isn't greener on the other side, she won't hear it because of her fantasy world. Of course while she is seeing this guy, she is living her virtually responsibility free. That is why I am thinking that serving her with papers, awarding me custody of our daughter (she can't afford a lawyer to protect her rights) and not allowing her alimony, might be the only way to see reality. ******, her vehicle is in my name only, and if I have to I'll make her pay me for the use of it. Which again, she couldn't afford. she makes no money, which fortunately for her is not a need of mine; I'm very proud to take care of my family financially. She can't even afford to rent a one room apartment on her salary, not to mention that other things in life you have to pay for to survive. Whether she will admit it or not, I'm am providing some needs for her, but I don't know where they rank on her list, as she hasn't completed the survey yet, and probably doesn't know herself.

I know this sounds like I'm heading towards an ugly divorce, but that is the last thing that I want. I absolutely refuse to put my daughter through something like that. I just to make life without me and our daughter as miserable as possible for her that her fantasy will explode, and the ignorant redneck (no offense to any rednecks reading this) will simply not be able to meet those needs she now has, and won't be able to handle the emotional breakdown this will cause for her. I don't know if that's cold hearted or not, but then again, I didn't have the affair, causing her all the emotions that I have been through, and I'm not the one who wants a divorce, which will in all likelihood scar for life the most beautiful person in this world, our daughter.

Thank you for letting me ramble.

I would love to know your thoughts.

Ok ILD.. I haven't read your other post but I have a few questions.

Do you -want- a divorce? Do you -want- this marriage to end? If so.. file.

I think you've got an opportunity here to knock her off the fence, but that's a choice -you- need to own.. the choice to fight this the MB way, or ILD's way. I chose my way and my world's gone to crap.. just my experience.

Have you done Plan A? How long?

If you're going into Plan B, look at the option of a LSA and a dark Plan B.. if anything will knock her off the fence it will be that. Give Plan B some time to work and if there's no movement.. well.. then go to Plan D when you're ready.

While I wouldn't go about protecting her from the consequences of her adultry.. by acting hostile towards her and -making- an ugly divorce out of what is a salvagable marriage.. seems a little overkill, and will likely push her to the other side of the fence.

JMHO

No, I do not want a divorce. However, I've read through Plan A and don't know if it will work. She is very unreceptive towards me at the moment. I think I might need to jump to Plan B and get legally separated just so she will come out of the haze she is in and realize that I truly want to repair our marriage, that it really wouldn't be that tough if we follow the HNHN plan, and that it is totally worth it not just for our sakes, but for the sake of our daughter. My wife can be a very stubborn woman when she wants to be, and I think this would be the only way for her to see reality, even though it's staring her in the face.

I have been very attentive towards her since I found out about the affair a month ago, and I've tried to be caring, Not understanding, and generally nice towards her. And she has told me that it's not making any difference. In our last counseling session this past Monday, our counselor who preaches this book and is how I found the website, has told her that all this work that we would be doing is useless if she doesn't want to put forth the effort. He was responding to her question of "what if I just don't care". He also told her that the only way to truly rebuild the marriage is to completely close the door on the other guy, so I can make deposits into my love acct without competition.

So that's where I am now. I thank everybody who has responded with kind words and good advice. I will definately be returning for more help, I'm sure.

Have you exposed the affair, ILD? That is your most potent weapon against the affair.

ILD - you can certainly choose this course of action if you want to.

But be warned that it could be seen as "manipulation" and an attempt to "force" her to stay. And it could backfire on you.




This part is true. As long as an affair is ongoing, nothing you do will really register with her. Your "best bet" is a good solid Plan A for 3 to 6 months BEFORE moving to a Plan B separation if she doesn't respond to the Plan A.

The fact that it appears you are both seeing a counselor is good thing, because she is hearing it from the counselor, who is not intimately involved in your marriage and is, therefore, hearing it from someone else.

If, after what you consider to be a "reasonable time," she won't end the affair and commit to trying to recover your marriage, then you should expose the affair to all who have a "need to know." The goal, as it is right now with the therapy, is to destablize the affair, to break through the protective "fantasy bubble" that encases all affairs, and to let the light of day (reality) begin to disipate the fog.

Here's one last thing to consider, "I am an action oriented person." Sometimes the best action is patience and "patient endurance." Don't be in a rush to haul out the 16" guns before trying less drastic steps first.

I guess I should have been more clear. My wife has already moved out of our bedroom, and is currently planning her leaving. She has been very lax about it mainly because why should she leave. She is getting free room and board from me. I have taken her of my cell phone plan, and she has always paid daycare, but other than that, she has no responsiblities. There is no incentive for her to do anything. And wouldn't allowing her to stay knowing this be the same as giving my approval to her affair, which she has told me is ongoing? I've told her that I refuse to share her with anyone, going to our marriage vows of forsaking all others, but if she is getting her needs met by me and someone else, what is her motivation to leave or stay? I've decided that serving her with separation papers is the only thing that might make her decide what's important. Granted, I'm might not achieve what I am hoping for, which is for her to come back, but I cannot and will not live under the deciept and betrayal that she has brought into my house. I've asked to stop seeing him and work on our marriage with me, and she has not given me a direct answer, which in itself is giving me the answer. It's not the one I want, but I have to live my life too, and I cannot do that the way that I am feeling right now. I also have a 4 year old daughter to consider, which as far as I can tell, she is not doing that right now either, because the only sensible solution to this dilemma is to stay and work things out. I know we could be happy again, but not like this. Thank you all for your help and suggestions. I will be checking in again to see if anyone has seen this.

ILD, please don't misunderstand. I understand exactly what you are saying, but it doesn't sound as though you have done much of a Plan A yet, that's all I'm saying.

Understand, too, that after almost 3 months of trying, I DID tell my wife to move out. I did not set any "deadlines," other than to make it clear that she could have him or me, but not both. I made it clear to her that if there was going to be a divorce, SHE would have to file because I would not. I would not live with her while she was in her affair, but I would not divorce her either because despite what she was doing, I did love her and I MEANT all of my marriage vows to her. We would live separately until she "got right with God" with respect to her adultery.

I was as surprised as anyone when she later told me that her first response was "Halleluia, I'm free!" and that within minutes of her actually driving off to her aparment as she left our home, that reality bashed her in the head and she said "What am I doing?!"

Sometimes, in fact it is my opinion that most times, nothing changes until a "crisis" is precipitated. At that point, my wife understood that I couldn't stop her, but I was SERIOUS about marriage having NO room for anyone other than God as a "third party."

God may or may not play a part in your lives, but the principle of change due to having to confront a "crisis" that requires a decision to be made and eliminates prolonged procrastination still applies.

Just remember to always speak the words in humbleness and love, even if it may (it probably will be) be "tearing you apart on the inside."

God bless.

ILD,

Let me ask you a question and before you answer I want you to consider it and also consider the ramifications of your answer.

Is the way you want your wife to stay with you as the result of being forced into choosing you over some other man because she can't leave for financial reasons? What I'm getting at here is that you have pointed out that there is no way she can survive on what she is earning and yet you seem to have as a goal putting her into a position where she has to either hook up with a sugar daddy or come crawling back to you begging for her very life. I can assure you that she is more than capable of finding that sugar daddy and will eventually if you take this approach, even if she comes crawling back initially. This is not extraordinary care as described by Dr Harley in his writing. It is an attempt at coercion. It will not make her love you and can only cause more resentment in the future.


I realize that you are trying to be strong in all of this, but forcing her into deciding to give up everything or stay in servitude and grateful acquiescence to you is probably not the way to win her heart, which is what you need to do to get her to love you and commit to recovery. I'm not saying be a doormat and not suggesting that you enable her affair and its continuation, but you do need to be willing to give without getting for at least a couple of months and longer if it makes progress toward the goal of winning her back.

And concerning your being an action oriented person and FH's comment to you in that regard...Before the command to attack is given a good field general will always consider all of his options, attempt to predict his opponent's response to various actions on his part and move his troops into position where he not only has the advantage but can sustain that advantage throughout the battle. It is often the case that the first rush to victory becomes the death knell of the attacker. Consider the fates of the Axis during WWII, the US backed ROK in the 50s, the great might of Soviet military power in Afghanistan and Iraq's incursion into Kuwait in the early 90s. All showed great strength and power and all had overwhelming victories to begin, but the best of the outcomes of all of them was in Korea where the people are now separated from each other through negotiated treaties...just like a divorce...and this is the best result of all of them.


Intense Plan A, doing away with all excuses for her to leave (love busters) and being the best YOU that you can be and THAT followed with Plan B (including LSA and custody hearings and all of that stuff) is more likely to bring her back than telling her "don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out."

You are right, she is not considering your daughter. Your 4 year old needs to be your focus because of that, but that does not mean you have to be rid of your wife immediately.

You have a window of opportunity here to have an intact family with a mother as well as a father at home for your daughter. Forcing your wife to choose between being happy (in her affair) and being miserable in her marriage is probably not the best route to that end. Plan A is all about showing her that while she may be happy in the affair, she can be happier in the marriage. She knows the marriage is real, she doesn't know the affair is not. You have to win by love not by force or you will lose in the end.

Did you look at those links I pointed you to (page 4 and 5 of my "musings" thread)? One of them is Longhorn's thread that someone else pointed out to you.

What you have to do is out affair the affair partner...Make at home with you BETTER than being with him. My wife was trying to decide if she would stay with me after over thirty years of being together or if she was going to run off to be with OM. He had a big house in the country while I have a small house in the suburbs. He is retired (actually twice, since one is from the Army) and has more money retired than she and I earn together. Even if it didn't work out with OM, she could always live next door to him where her step mother lives on nine acres in a big house all alone (which is how it all began). If I had said "get out" on D-day, we'd be history. I did eventually say that, but not until a couple of months of Plan A, and THEN I stood a chance. She then said she'd stay and it was still several days before real NC began.

What you need to decide is this; are you willing to put your ENs on hold to save your marriage? Can you give to her, while doing all you can to bust the affair, and expect nothing in return from her for at least two months? You have to focus on the goal, not the interim steps. Where you end up is what is important, not where you are. I KNOW you don't like where you are, none of us liked it.

Plan A is NOT talking about the relationship or trying to FIX the marriage. That is recovery and BEFORE you can begin recovery you have to win her back from OM. That is what Plan A is for.

Who knows about this affair? Has it been exposed to those who can put pressure on it?

Mark


Edited to add:
PS If you want to stay on this thread I'll edit the title to whatever you would like it to read, at least until the "Title Locking Police" get here in about 6 weeks or so...

Mark, you make great points, and I really do appreciate it. I think its great that so many people are willing to help me through this, the hardest thing I've ever done. I do see your point, and I'm going to have to go over Plan A again. I'm going out at lunch to pick up Surviving An Affair, and will read it, and learn it. I guess I could put things on hold for now, until I can decide whats important to her, and then meet those. I'm just afraid that while I try and try to make deposits in my acct with her, that the bank is closed to me while there is someone else.

Thank you again.

Hi ILD, sorry you find yourself here. My W recently had an A, and we have a 7 year old daughter.

Your anger and hurt is coming through loud and clear, and its certainly understandable. I would caution you against directing too much of that negative energy toward your W right now. There's a difference between attacking the A and attacking your W is what I'm saying. Attacking the A is a good and necessary thing, attacking your W is going to be (will always be!) very counterproductive.

Its good that you are in counseling, and your counselor is right, nothing will happen until your W wants it to happen. The A won't end until she or the OM decides to end it. The plans here are designed to end affairs and give marriages a chance to recover.

Plan A has both a "carrot" and "stick" component. You seem to have the stick. Where's the carrot? I'm not saying its not there, I just can't see it from what you've written.

You say you are very proud to provide for your family financially. I think that's great, but what if your W doesn't feel that's very important? Surely she reaps the benefits of it, but what if financial security isn't one of HER primary Emotional Needs? What if she needs Affection and Conversation and isn't getting them? If that were to be the case, then you providing Financial Security doesn't make her feel love for you. Likewise, you threating it and withdrawing it won't mean alot to her either, although at some point it will certainly impact her lifestyle. It just might not have the immediate impact you are hoping for, and in the time it takes for that tactic to have an effect she may in fact grow more invested in the A where obviously some of her important needs are being met.

I just don't want to see you win the battle and break up the A but lose the war and not recover your marriage.

Sorry, both you and Mark posted in between me typing my response. He said much of what I was trying to say, and did a better job of it.

ILD, it IS closed while there is another man in the picture.

But think of it like a bank.

The Love Bank perhaps?

The Bank is closed and only the people inside the bank can move around. But they NEED your deposits to avoid eventual bank failure. So you line up all your deposits, waiting for the time when they open the doors and you can begin to bring the deposits in. Or maybe they even have one "Teller Widow" open in the Drive Up, so you can make a few small deposits, but the big load of deposits is still waiting in the Armored Car parked outside the main doors.

What Mark is saying, what I've been saying, is to NOT view Plan A behaviors as having "no worth" while the affair is ongoing. They DO have an effect. The people inside the bank can see what you are doing, they just aren't ready to ACCEPT what you are doing, but they SEE your sincerity and your readiness if they actually DO open the door. They begin to believe that you really DO want to make those big deposits in THEIR bank.

It's NOT easy. We know that. But if you DO want a shot at recovering your marriage, some of the preparations you do will not be easy, they just "need to be done" as a part of the overall process (plan).

God bless

Thank you all for your advice. After much soul searching, I have decided to get the separation papers ready, but not do anything with them now. They'll just sit at my lawyers office. She has decided (don't know if by want or need) to spend Christmas in the house as a family, which gives me time to seriously impliment Plan A and get her into more counseling sessions. We are also going to have to work together to give our daughter a birthday party the week before xmas. (See what happens when you don't plan) I am going to do everything I can to show her that I've realized that I haven't been meeting her needs, and show her that I intend to everyday till death do us part. I'll just keep my deposits safe until she is ready to let me make a deposit.

Again, thank you all for your help. You have no idea how it has helped me sort through all my emotions and feelings.

God Bless you all!

Maybe you should take a break from suggesting counseling for awhile, and just Plan A. Give Plan A time to work its magic. ("A watched kettle never boils.") Let her see that your changes are for real, and not just based on winning her back.

ILD,

I agree with Bellevue. Counseling might need to wait a while yet. You can decide that for yourself, but when still involved in the fantasy, counseling is often seen by the WS as a way to walk away and say "I tried counseling and my feelings didn't change."

Do you want me to change the title of this thread for you? Let me know what you want and I'll edit it. Or you can start a new thread, but probably want to link here and your original thread so that you don't have to explain it all over again.

Mark

ILD,

Haven't heard from you in a week. Just wondering if you're still around and how it's going.

Mark

I'm still here, just been out of touch. News is that my wife is bound and determined to move out. We've talked several times, there is no doubt that she knows what I want, but I don't think it's made any difference. I really didn't think it would, but at least she knows how I feel, and I feel good because I've been honest with her. She wants to be out of the house 1-01-08, so that is what I'm telling my lawyer whether she has found a place or not. I need to start my recovery and dealing with what I'm going through and I can't do that with her here because everytime I look at her all I want to do is hold her. My plan is to be as nice and pleasant as possible to her until she leaves, so she leaves with a good taste in her mouth regarding me. When she crashes and burns on her own (almost a certainty) hopefully she will realize what she just threw away. The other thing is that she will not be able to see OM when she has our daughter or risk losing her visitation rights. I'm hoping that will put a strain on her relationship having to choose between him or her daughter. I've told her I'm giving her the separation in the hopes that it will eventually make us stronger, but I will fight a divorce with everything I can. I am going to continue counseling by myself to help me through this and to help me with my patience that I am going to need to win her back.