I will stay with it. Thanks for the comments. The seminar in Florida is something we simply can't do now. We're in no position financially for one thing. And I don't think she would be keen to spent that money anyway, since we're not on the same page.

MWH:

The Harleys are based out on Minneapolis, I believe. Maybe St. Paul.

They have the seminars all over the country. We went to the Philadelphia one.

It might cost you $1,5000. or, at the most, $2,000. How much do you think your marriage is worth? I wasn't sure I had it either.

But I spent it. And it was worth every dollar. And if your wife doesn't think it is money well spent, than she is not clearly able to make that decision right now, is she? What if the roles were reversed and you were the one in the car? She wouldn't think it was a waste of money, then. You might. But that's the mindset of a wayward. And your W is still wayward.

There was a poster here about 8 months ago. Her Husband was a nutcase. Affairs, moved out, drinking, etc. She literally stuffed him into the plane on the day of departure.

He was miserable. He wasn't going to do it. And she thought the whole thing, the WHOLE weekend was a failure. Then about three weeks later, the light bulb went off for the husband. He had been processing it. And it started to make sense. And when she posted about six weeks later, she was amazed by the change. I would love to see an update from her.

Your wife, of course, is NOT on the same page. Time to turn the page for her.

Lets start with you, What are YOUR most important Emotional Needs?

And what, and I ask AGAIN, what are your WIFES most important EN's?

LG

Your post makes so much sense. I am going to see what I can do to try and raise that money. Between the two of us, we simply don't have it. But perhaps I can sell some stuff. And perhaps she would be willing to go. We'll see.

A few weeks back, we each took the EN quiz. And although we discussed it together, I can't honestly recall the conversation. It's probably due to all the turmoil recently. We did take that Lovebuster questionaire the other night. What an eye-opener! I've saved those papers this time. Perhaps I'll print up the EN thing again today, and fill it out again.

I posed the idea of the seminar. And while she wasn't necessarily against it (even though admitedly, she's not on the same page as me) she feels the money (if we can even get it) would be better well spent elsewhere.

But you're right. I've got an amazing DVD collection, as well as a Star Wars toys collection. Both mean a lot to me - but not as much as my marriage.

Time to open an EBAY account - today.

I printed up the Emotional Needs questionnaire yesterday. We didn't get a chance to fill it out. Hopefully we will in the next day or two.

The seminar isn't going to happen. We simply can't afford it for one thing. We started to look into therapy yesterday. We have to go through a few steps in order to get it covered by insurance. But it looks like we can get it covered - which is nice.

If my wife is willing, (and insurance will cover it) I would like to try the sessions with the Harley's. I have now heard back from them. And they've told me that even couples in our position (where one half thinks there's little chance of success) have had their marriages saved.

In the meantime, I've tried to move away from dwelling on this, and have decided to try and refrain from talking about this at length with my wife. It's draining on both of us. We've agreed to do counseling. So we can talk about it there.

So now I'm just taking things day by day. I know that there are MANY things I need to work on myself - to not only be the best husband I can be, but to be the best person I can be as well.

MWH, I am just going to tell you that there probably is someone else. I hope I am wrong, but you need to find out for sure in order to rule it out.

Let me tell you why I think there is an OM in the woodpile:



In order for her to feel she is OUT OF LOVE, she has to have a point of comparison. She wouldnt' know this unless she had this point of comparison in her life right now. This statement, "I love you, but I am not IN LOVE" is a CLASSIC statement of someone in an affair.


They all say this. And yes, the revelation may have been a year ago, but it likely emanated from a feeling she has developed for someone else.


Her true intent is revealed here. She would have no desire to work on the marriage if she was in an affair. The solution to this problem is not to LEAVE the marriage, but to get help for the problem. She does not want to solve the problem.

I would suggest that you don't ask her about this, but quietly check her cell phone bill, her computer for emails, etc and see what is going on. I strongly suspect it is an affair but HOPE I AM WRONG.

Those are fair assumptions. But I assure you, there is NOTHING going on right now.

For the record, my wife has in fact stated that she would be "pleasantly surprised" if marriage counseling works for us.

Although the past few weeks have been emotionally trying for both of us, we still have a wonderful relationship. There is no coldness or hard feelings. We still spend all our time together - when we're not working. We eat together, watch TV, got to movies, play with the kids... Our sex life is fantastic. We are still best friends. She just doesn't feel that "whatever" for me right now - and isn't sure she can.

We have both been very open and honest about everything - sometimes brutally so. And if there were someone else, she would tell me. And if she did want to move on from me, and to someone else, she would. It's as simple as that. If there were someone else, she wouldn't go through the charade of marriage counseling. Because like I said, we are best friends. And she wouldn't put me through the ****** of phoniness.

MWH:

Yes, your W could, inspite of all the things you just noted, could still be in an A.

We watch for that stuff around here like a hawk. I hid MINE from my wife for 4.5 years. Yes, she suspected about year 3.5, but not really before that.

That said, the most important thing to remember, is to be on the look out for it. Do the snooping things that make sense. Keylogger, cell phone records, etc. You will see SOMETHING if it exists. And if not, then that's ok. You will KNOW.

I will not say anything further about your W still being activly wayward, until you uncover evidence to the contray. Her mindset is still wayward however, and that is the mindset that you need to change.

First, redo the EN's.

Second: About this:

"The seminar isn't going to happen. We simply can't afford it for one thing. We started to look into therapy yesterday. We have to go through a few steps in order to get it covered by insurance. But it looks like we can get it covered - which is nice.

If my wife is willing, (and insurance will cover it) I would like to try the sessions with the Harley's. I have now heard back from them. And they've told me that even couples in our position (where one half thinks there's little chance of success) have had their marriages saved.

In the meantime, I've tried to move away from dwelling on this, and have decided to try and refrain from talking about this at length with my wife. It's draining on both of us. We've agreed to do counseling. So we can talk about it there."


It's OK if you can not afford quality therapy, and insurance is covering the sessions that you might get. My only caution, is that BAD therapy can be devasting to you. GOOD therapy is what you want. And you do not know if it is BAD or GOOD until after the fact. And most insurance policies will cover 6-12 sessions, tops.

I do not belive that the Harleys accept insurance. However, I'm sure they would be happy to provide you with information that you could forward to your insurance plan that your insurance plan could tell you what amount of reimbursement they would give. If the rate for Harley MC is $185 an hour, and the insurance company will pay $100, in reimbursement, you are out of pocket $85. And, the one thing we do KNOW around here, the Harley MC is GOOD advice. If the local therapy provider, charges you $100 an hour, and then you are reimbursed the same amount, but the advice is BAD, then you use up your benefit, and you do not move forward. There are a number of threads around here from long time posters who have used GOOD counselors, and BAD ones. I recommend the GOOD ones.

And, it is an excellent idea NOT to talk about it ALL THE TIME. If you get into counselling with the Harleys, they will give you a time to talk to THEM, and then, they will give you structered, moving forward activities, for you and your W to work on. ANd then, you talk to them about those activities the next week, and they assign some more. So, you do not NEED to talk about it ALL THE TIME. And about ALL THE TIME? The OM? HE never talked about the problems in the marriage. He talked about what your W was interested in talking about, and not about the kids, the dog crapping on the rug, the bills to be paid, the broken whatever, your crazy sister, the naked fat guy next door, etc.

Talk about things that make her happy, and you to. There is a time for discussions about the A, and a GOOD MC will determine those times for you.

LG

No, she would not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Why not check to just confirm this?

Please, just quietly check and PROVE US WRONG!

LG, please stay on him until he RULES IT OUT. If he called up Dr. Harley right now, he would tell him he suspects the same thing because of this comment:

"My wife feels that she has fallen out of love with me (in an "in love" sense)"

MWH thinks she would TELL HIM, which makes me even more nervous.

Actually, she would tell me. I know that sounds crazy. But she would. She's a very strong person. And if there were someone else she wanted, she would cut me off and leave me.

And for the record, I don't believe there's ANY way anyone around here could "prove" anyone else wrong. There will always be people who refuse to believe an affair has ended, no matter what.

It was my snooping that discovered the affair. And I continued to do so after the affair. Times have changed for us since then. For one thing, she is no longer a stay-at-home mom. She works. There is no time in which she is alone to even have an affair. If she's not with me, she's at work, on the way to or from work, with the kids, or sleeping. And this lifestyle will not be changing anytime soon. Divorce is not imminent. Separation is not imminent. It's just her and I for the foreseeable future.

My problem is pretty simple. There were feelings (and lack thereof) which lead my wife down the path to an affair. I caught that affair literally a couple of days after it happened. And it has been over ever since. HOWEVER, those same feelings that lead her to that affair HAVE NOT CHANGED! And I don't understand why anyone would think that they magically would, simply because she got caught. Just because the affair is over doesn't mean that our marriage is suddenly wonderful again. No, those lack of feelings for me - the lack of "in love" were present BEFORE the affair. Therefore, those feelings are still there now. And that's what I need to deal with.

Mel:

He has been hammered on this subject both on an earlier thread here and on his Rocovery and/or EN's thread.

Personally, I think his W may still be wayward, but she still has the wayward mindset.

But I want MWH, to start working on fixing his M. And that's why I, and you, recommend that he keeps looking.

If he is surprised later, that his W is still involved, than he will be surprised, and hurt, yet again.

He has reason to believe that his W is NOT involved. I will accept that, and proceed accordingly. MWH's has a broken M. He just doesn't realize to what extent it is broken. I want him to explore that, and he can DO THAT, if he stays here.

If his W is still wayward, that will come out.
.
But, if all we tell him to do is snoop, and his W is still involved, and can't you see it, and what's wrong with you, and your crazy to think otherwise, and then he goes away, we really do not accomplish much do we?

So, IF we presume that his W is involved, then outside of snooping for evidence, what would you recommend that MWH do?

And, if MWH can satisfy himself, using whatever methods, that his W is NOT involved, what would you recommend?

I understand that until the A is over, that rebuilding the M CANNOT occur. However, if MWH recieves excellent advice on how to become a better H, and implements that, then he has a better shot of destroying what is left of the A, whether active or dormant.

Besides, if HE and MrsMWH called Dr, Harley, she would deny it as well. But if they never call back, then he never gets help for his M, does he?

And Mel, remember Mr. Mel ended his A on Dday, just like I did. Mrs MWH's may have ended hers as well. And although Mr Mel and I jumped onto the recovery wagon quickly, (In Mr Mel's case, he had your trusty six-shooter to deal with...LOL) maybe Mrs MWH is dragging somewhat.

LG

Yes and yes.

This is where I need help. Please, let's move on with the assumption that there is no affair involved. ******, logistically, she wouldn't even have the time for it. If I'm wrong, like you said, it will come out. But for now, I am fully satisfied that there is nothing going on.

My wife claims to have lost her feelings for me. It happens. But a person can fall out of love, and not have an affair also. That being said, she's certainly susceptible to having one. And I'd like to do whatever I/we can to prevent that from happening again. And yes, my wife has expressed concerns to me that she could fall prey to that once again. That's one of the reasons she wants to move on - so I don't get hurt again, if she does suddenly develop those feelings for someone else. And that was one of her main reasons for resisting therapy - fear of failure.

But she has "come around" and has agreed to counseling now. And while we go through this process, I need advice as to what I should do, and how I should proceed. Her heart isn't totally in it because she thinks there's little chance of success. But "little chance" doesn't mean "no chance." Like I said, in her own words, she'd be "pleasantly surprised" if it works.

Oh, for the record, the Harley's do not work with insurance companies. As for our insurance, they will pay indefinitely, as long as one (or both) of us has been diagnosed with something such as depression, anxiety disorder or adjustment disorder.

Apparently you can't say H-E-L-L.

MWH:

Your efforts SO FAR, seem to have affected some changes in her behaviors and attitudes, already.

So, your on the right track.

I recommend that you start getting your 15 hours a week of undivided Attention (U/A) time with your W. And this time doesn't mean talking about the A, but talking with each other about other things. And maybe doing fun things. Playing cards, window shopping, walking in the park, etc.

Continue reconnecting with your W.

Your doing well. Keep it up.

LG

ahhhhhhhh, ok! I thought you were denying that there was EVER an affair, which really scared me. I can TELL she has had or is in an affair. Her statements all point to that. Sorry, I didn't know that missing piece!

When did her affair end?

It began and ended on August 10th. He then went out of town for two weeks, starting the 11th. I found out about it on the 20th. He made contact again on the 23rd and 24th. He wanted to see her that weekend. She told him no. Then he got irritated. She told him I knew everything, and that she was going to work things out with me. He then turned into a jerk - which turned her off completely. There has been no contact since the 24th - although he did make one final attempt to IM her two months later, on October 22nd. I happened to be sitting in front of the computer at the time, and lead him to believe that I was her, all the while probing him for information as to whether or not there had been anything going on. And it turned out, there hadn't been. Posing as my wife, I blew him off, told him off, and then got hammered by insults from him. Yeah, I pissed him off. And it felt good!

My wife has totally washed her hands of this guy, and has also referred to him as a "[censored]" for his baby-like behavior.

But unfortunately, those feelings for wanting to find her "perfect match" still exist. But again, she has agreed to counseling, and has agreed to "stay faithful" (if that's how you want to put it) during this process.

Thank you. I am trying. And she's receptive to doing things together. So we'll see how it goes.

I am completely over the affair. It seems so petty now, when looking at the big picture. For three months I lamented it saying "poor, poor me," not realizing that for her, those same feelings that existed pre-affair still existed post-affair. And instead of dealing with that, I just moped around being sad. So no more. It's time for me to grow up and deal with the situation, and be the man that I am capable of being - and that includes being a better husband. Because I know now that I had many shortcomings in that department.

One day at a time.

you should be the man she fell in love with in the first place, remember? what did you do when you were dating? whatever you did then is what caused her to fall in love with you, do that again.

Very sound advice - and advice others have shared as well. But my wife has thrown a kink into that logic. She has claimed that she thinks she may have never been "in love" with me. So from her perspective, how do you rekindle what was never there?

For the record, I don't believe it. I know what I saw in her face, her eyes, her embrace, her touch... I've dug out old cards and love letters. I've asked others who have known us for their opinions...

There's no way she could convince me (or probably anyone who has known us and has been around us over the past 9.5 years) that she wasn't "in love" with me.

So why did she make that claim? Could it be that she's simply forgotten? That's reasonable. In the midst of her soul-searching and turmoil, perhaps she's thought to herself, "Hmm... I've fallen out of love with him. Did I ever love him? Maybe not." And when you're leaning towards the non-love way to begin with, it's a pretty easy step.

Of course it could also be theorized that by telling me she was never "in love" with me makes it easier to walk away. It's a lot easier to justify getting divorced, if you can convince yourself you were never "in love."

As of right now, we have our first marriage counseling session scheduled for January 2nd. As the therapist told me, being on different pages is ok. One party thinking there's a "little chance" of success is a far, far cry from believing there is "no chance."