OK apparently my WXH has been telling two of our daughters (oldest daughter has nothing to do with him) that he has regrets but that its too late and there's nothing he could do now...

IMHO he doesn't yet feel any real remorse about the adulteries and the divorce - just regrets that OW dumped him and that I rejected his cake-eating agenda... and his offers to get back together secretly so he wouldn't have to tell his friends and family...

Most likely he's just rewriting history to try to look good in his daughters' eyes.

Should I try to discuss this with WXH? I'm guessing no because he hasn't tried to contact me. Besides, he has yet to apologize to me about anything (besides apologies years ago when he was trying to cake-eat and for false recovery attempts - which I of course don't count as real apologies). On the other hand, I never sent him a Plan B letter detailing steps to do for recovery either...

I think now I would prefer that HE would feel enough remorse and desire for reconciliation that HE would do the research to learn what to do for recovery and approach me with a plan. Also, even if he really did believe that I would never give him another chance and/or that recovery isn't possible now, I feel he should say and do certain things anyway just because they are the right thing and they would help me and my daughters with recovery. So even if he is remorseful but just believes it really is too late, he still has no excuse for not apologizing and doing whatever he can to help me and my daughters feel better.

I've tried to discuss this a little bit with my daughters - how I don't really believe he is interested in recovery and doesn't really regret what he did. But they've been making comments indicating that their perception of it all is changing to them believing that both of their parents ended the marriage... I reminded one of my daughters that I did try to save the marriage, for a long time, and that I did so with no guarantee that it would work and that I wouldn't just get hurt again. I also reminded my middle daughter that the 'recovery efforts' WXH tried were just attempts to cake-eat or weasel his way back into my life minus any changes or even commitment (more of a boundary issue than a true desire to be in a real relationship with me).

My WXH (back when I used to have contact with him) claimed he had done everything he could to work on our marriage. But of course this was when he was still actively involved with the OW and justifying his adultery by pretending that HE had been the one trying to improve the marriage but supposedly everything he did was never enough for me. The truth of course was that he was not the least bit interested in meeting my emotioanl needs AND would ONLY allow OW to meet his. For most of our marriage he claimed we couldn't afford to go out on dates. I settled for what little he put into the marriage instead of nagging him to put his efforts into our marriage instead of relationships with OW. I honestly beleive he'd end each adultery because he was broke and exhausted and wanted to go back to just coasting with me instead of all the work it took to be with the OW!

Years ago I told my daughters some about the MB principles and how I was trying to keep the marriage and family together. But I doubt they remember those details. They know I post here @ MB's but I don't think they understand what I do here and why. I have considered teaching my youngest daughter MB concepts as part of her homeschooling, for 'living skills'. But right now I doubt she'd be very receptive and might just interpret it as somehow putting her daddy down. She seems to have adopted a lot of his views about relationships unfortunately, saying things like it's not really wrong or unusual for marriages to end, that people can't help who they 'fall in love with', that she doesn't want to have any kids, etc. When I say anything that conflicts with those cynic remarks she sometimes reacts as if I'm saying something negative about her father, even if I keep it in general terms and don't mention my WXH and marriage/divorce.

Tell your daughters that you fought for your marriage and your family for THEM.

Tell them you did not tolerate adultery in your marriage because you did not want to teach them to tolerate their husbands cheating on THEM.

That you committed to marriage and fidelity, to be married even if you didn't "feel" like it, because you made vows.

That you understand wanting to hold onto their Dad, but taking on his beliefs about faithfulness isn't necessary and you understand they love him, even if he did wrong.

This stuff never ends.

I totally agree Bellevue. And that is what I tell them. And the thing is they do know how much I really tried to save my marriage and that I really hate it that their family was torn apart.

They also know that I gave their daddy so many chances and that he blew them all because he was infatuated with the OW. And then later, even after the OW dumped him for good, he still didn't appreciate the chances he had because he was much more concerned about what his family and friends would think of him than of what WE thought of him.

I understand it may be less painful for my daughters to pretend their daddy really did love us more than the OW, (and the OW's little girl), and that he cared more about what WE thought of him than those other people did... So I guess they need to believe that their daddy tried the best he could to put us first but it was their mommy's fault it didn't work out? They've been making comments that he isn't happy now but that he knows I would never give him another chance.

In the past everytime he dumped me again for the OW he made sure to try to start an argument so he could pretend it was my fault he was going back to the OW. I was so careful to not take his bait that he would end up becoming enraged and lashing out at me even though I was being civil and not giving him any excuse to leave again. Usually he resorted to going back to the OW and pointing to my reaction to that betrayal as the after-the-fact 'cause' of his going back to her... And at the time my daughters didn't fall for that and even called him on it himself a few times. But now they seem to want to believe that he really did try to make it work with me but that we just couldn't get along (um BECAUSE he was still seeing OW).

But now two of my daughters, especially the youngest one, says WXH and I fought a lot which is NOT true! I'm actually appalled by most of the banter that goes on between couples on tv sitcoms and poitn out to my daughters that the things those tv wives say to their husbands are things I never said to my WXH. I practically idolized my WXH and never criticized him unless he became verbally or physically violent. He KNEW he had to behave extremely badly in order to get me to say anything remotely argumentative with him - so that's exactly what he did so he could pretend we 'didn't get along' and that the marriage was bad enough to justify his involvement with the OW.

My daughters KNOW that when I gave him chances and he went back to the OW that it hurt me a LOT. And at the time it hurt and angered them plenty too! So I find it hard to accept that they can believe that I didn't give him enough of a chance! I don't think they are telling me these things about my WXH now because they want me to give him yet another chance. And I don't believe WXH even wants another chance anyway. It's just WXH's way of shifting the blame and for whatever reasons two out of three daughters are now receptive to believing his fog-spin on what happened.

Is this part true?

I think it is good talking about all of this with your daughters. You can also let them know that all married couples have disagreements, and these need to be worked out by the husband and wife WITHOUT being unfaithful.

Your ex sounds a lot like mine. He justifys his 4 year affair by saying I refused to take him back. Yep, I sure did. He was still living with the OW.

"Is this part true?"
(in reference to WXH's pretense to daughters that he knows I would never give him another chance)


Not really. In fact I suspect he STILL believes I will eventually 'come around' and will allow him back in my life without him having to give up his bachelor lifestyle.

I have not seen or heard ANY indication from WXH that he even wants another chance actually. The last several times we discussed it he was not interested; I was offering but he was claiming that he was a victim and that he could NEVER forgive ME! (for exposing the adultery, for 'causing' him to lose the OW, and for wierd stuff like my lawyer showing up at court wearing a SUIT!) Apparently his pride has been damaged beyond repair by my believing I was even worthy of respect and fidelity!

IF my WXH ever showed genuine remorse and a sincere effort I don't know how long he would have to sustain such an effort before I could trust him again... BUT IF he were sincere that shouldn't and Wouldn't stop him from doing the right thing anyway. I honestly don't feel I owe him any more assurances or chances. I took the first step many more times than he did and there wasn't a single time when he took the initiative that it was a genuine recovery effort on his part. There's no reason for me to even believe he is remorseful or would want another chance. And even if he did IMHO he should speak up and take the risk instead of having our daughters hint at it.

Would I give a truly remorseful WXH another chance? You bet. If he was proving to me that he was ready to be heroic and sacrifice his false pride just to give our marriage even the slimmest of chances, even though he'd be risking rejection, then I would give him another chance.

But that's not what's going on so I of course have no intention of giving him any encouragement or assurance.

If I don't mean enough to him to risk maybe getting rejected or hurt himself than I'm frankly not impressed.

Also, I'm starting to suspect my youngest daughter doesn't like me posting @ MB's... Not sure what she thinks my motive for posting here is or what she suspects I say about her father here...

The subject of addictions came up yesterday in a discussion with her. We saw this really skinny guy out jogging along ice covered roads when it was only 17 degrees outside! I commented that he probably was addicted to his jogging routine... that he obviously wasn't doing it for health reasons since he was ignoring the fact that it was not healthy to exercise to excess and in dangerous conditions (breathing auto axhaust and risking frostbite and getting run over by a car). Daughter said he wanted the endorphin high. I replied that exercising is a good source of endorphins but that even healthy/good sources of endorphins can be overdone and become addictive. I pointed out that soem activities are inherently wrong AND addictive, while others may be good activities, but wrong if they become addictive or IDOLS. At that point she became uncomfortable with the conversation and sort of slipped into her 'well that's your opinion' defensiveness.

Years ago, when I was in Plan A, and again when I was allowing their father to come home (for what turned out to be just another false recovery) I explained a little to my daughters about the addictive nature of adultery. I wonder if my youngest daughter even remembers what I told her then and if I should once again bring up the subject of addiction in relation to adultery? From what I can tell from her recent comments she wants to believe there wasn't really anything wrong with what her daddy did so I doubt she would be receptive right now to an explanation that he was acting like an addict.

MM,

I think that WHs in general do not remember half of what occurs during their affairs. I know in my situation, my WH was very verbally abusive to me for about 2 weeks (cursing at me in front of my DS).

When I brought this up about a month ago, he looked at me with shocked amazement and denied he would ever say such a thing to me, especially in front of our DS.

So, I really think they are not operating on all levels while they are cheating.

This is one of the main reasons why I keep a journal and will probably print out all my e-mails and even my post on here to keep for future reference. My fear, like what is happening to you, is that when the (x)WH begins to defog, he will also rewrite the history of his affair(s) as well.

I think the most difficult part of all this will be if, after I finally lose every last shred of love for him (as a wife), he will make a similarly lame attempt at reconciliation. I am afraid that my children will be old enough to hope it would work out between us and I will be at a place where I no longer want it to. Then they will blame me for not being more "forgiving".

I know that as a child, when my parents argued and at one time separated, it was always my hope that they would reconcile. Though they did, I found that I continued to want to mediate between them to help solve arguments because I did not want them to divorce.

I think that children always harbor a secret wish for their parents to live together and be happy. I have no doubt my children will do the same. So if or when my (x)WH starts with the "I wanted to reconcile, but your mom didn't want to" garbage, I would like to be able to have a record of exactly what I did to preserve the marriage so that I can show them.

Of course I will wait to show them everything until they reach the age where than can understand and handle the truth.

Sara I think it's a smart idea to document in case your WH someday tries to tell your kids that HE was the one who wanted to reconcile but that YOU didn't give him a chance. Your children are so young that they won't have their own memories to counter his spin.

But my youngest was ten years old when her daddy decided to have a midlife crisis. She seemed to understand more then than she does now about what was really going on. Nowadays she's just a tad too willing to believe anything that might put a positive spin on what he did. I think it's how she is trying to cope with the betrayal and rejection. She had a really rough time a few years back and was doing some pretty scary stuff like cutting herself. So I'm worried about saying too much to her to counter it when she repeats her daddy's foggy version of what happened. She seems to be doing much better now and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to remove whatever is helping her cope for now... The next time she gives me some serious trouble though, starts rebelling again, I will start scheduling visits with her for the family counselor again though. She is covered under WXH's insurance again so the expense is doable again.

Also, because my WXH is a serial adulterer, and has some major unresolved issues from his childhood, the selective memory thing with him is not a recent or short-term thing with him: He can't remember a lot from his childhood, has always been sort of loose with telling the truth, and spent pretty much most of our marriage in the fog of either adultery or withdrawal. I'm not at all surprised that WXH is still rewriting history - just sort of worried that daughters are starting to act as if they are buying it now even though they really do know the truth.

"I think that children always harbor a secret wish for their parents to live together and be happy"

I agree and I guess that's why I'm worried about daughters starting to believe WXH's lies about him wanting to save the marriage but it's too late, or I won't give him a chance...

I told daughters that I still love him but that recovery will probably never happen because he he won't take responsibility for what he did and won't make the needed changes. In all honesty I cannot see him agreeing to things like accountability, POJA, etc. Even at his best, when he wasn't involved in an adultery, he wasn't that kind of husband. Plus I did try to talk to him several times about what it takes to rebuild a marriage after adultery and he wanted nothing to do with the MB principles.

I also reminded them of how long and how hard I tried to save the marriage while he continued with OW. I also told them despite what he's telling them he has not contacted me to apologize or ask for another chance. That's when they said he didn't think I'd give him another chance, and that he thought it was too late.

In believe all he wants is their sympathy and for them to blame me. I doubt seriously he's even interested in another chance. Surely he doesn't really expect ME to call him and offer him another chance does he?!?!? IMHO not being man enough to contact me, apologize, and ask for another chance wouldn't exactly earn him any points! But I don't even believe he's interested anyway. I'm 99.99% certain that if I did contact him to ask him if he's interested he'd just reject me again AND continue to pretend to daughters that I am the one who won't give it a chance. Oh yeah, he is really that cruel. I won't be taking that initiative again just to be smacked down.

Besides that's not good enough for me anymore. I want a man who respects and desires me enough to pursue me, even if he's not certain I will say yes. I don't want a man I have to coddle or prod to get him to maybe do the right thing. If his desire for me isn't strong enought to counter his false pride, fear, whatever, then that's just not enough for me.

"Besides that's not good enough for me anymore. I want a man who respects and desires me enough to pursue me, even if he's not certain I will say yes. I don't want a man I have to coddle or prod to get him to maybe do the right thing. If his desire for me isn't strong enought to counter his false pride, fear, whatever, then that's just not enough for me."

Good for you. Me neither. My ex has been making an attempt to date and get back with me. But it is just NOT ENOUGH. I'd rather be alone than to have someone willing to give so little to me.

MM,

My WH and your xWH sound very similar. I can't see mine doing any of the MB principles either unless its allowing me to meet all of HIS emotional needs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure your WH is probably fishing around to see if you are still interested, even if its only to give him an ego boost.

My WH seems to that when he feels I am pulling away. He likes to know that I still love him and would take him back, but as soon as he hears me say it or reads it in an e-mail, he goes right back to ignoring me.

Your xWH is probably a little upset at your treatment of him last time he visited so he wants to see if you still have any feelings left for him.

I don't blame you for not wanting to play his game as you know him better than anyone and see the futility of doing that.

Your daughter probably wants to believe your xWH is sincere because children generally don't like to think their fathers are completely "bad".

I would maybe let him know that his comments are causing confusion in your youngest daughter and that if he wants to discuss the marriage, he should do so with you only and leave her out of it altogether.

Hi Believer,

I know how you feel. It's sort of insulting how little, and how late, the WS assumes he has to do to get us back!

Like we haven't turned down better offers than that! LOL

But in my case, I don't even believe my WXH even wants me back - just wants daughters to thnk he's done nothing wrong.

I guess I should at least be glad he FINALLY seems to care about what his daughters think of him anyway! Previously he made it clear he ONLY wanted to look 'cool' to OW, their coworkers, his family, etc. and apparently had zero concern what his wife and kids thought of him. Too bad his concern abotu what his daughters thinks of him is only deep enough to motivate him to lie and paint a false picture for them...

Hi Saralynn,

"My WH and your xWH sound very similar."

I've noticed this similarity all along too and it's part of the reason I am so worried about you and keep checking in on your thread. Maybe it's the fact they both had bad-daddy role models growing up?

"I can't see mine doing any of the MB principles either unless its allowing me to meet all of HIS emotional needs."

Yea I know and forget about the POJA thing! I think my WXH would literally feel castrated if he had to actually talk to me first before making major decisions. I can't picture my husband ever being married again unless his wife allowed him to live and act like a bachelor - making all his decisions without consulting his wife.

"I'm sure your WH is probably fishing around to see if you are still interested, even if its only to give him an ego boost."

I think it's more like he still assumes I'm interested and is still egotistically confident that I will someday 'come around' to accepting his agenda. And since his new job has him surrounded with oodles of nurses, I doubt his ego is lacking a boost these days LOL; the dude could give seminars on flirting in the workplace... um the exact opposite of the sort of workshops I want to do on that topic...

"My WH seems to that when he feels I am pulling away. He likes to know that I still love him and would take him back, but as soon as he hears me say it or reads it in an e-mail, he goes right back to ignoring me."

My WXH used to play that game but it's been so long now that I really don't think he's up to that again. Besides, it's been a LONG time since I've given him any positive feedback so he wouldn't be expecting it to work for getting an ego boost from me anymore.

"Your xWH is probably a little upset at your treatment of him last time he visited so he wants to see if you still have any feelings left for him."

Actually, I was sort of surprised that when I was that cold to him he didn't react with anger (like he would have in the past). He actually seemed sort of embarrassed and even meek... It was wierdness. But even if he is starting to realize what he's given up and does have regrets now, I'm not in the mood for subtlety. He wasn't exaclty subtle with his betrayals and cruel rejections! If he has something to say to me now he best man up and just say it.

"I don't blame you for not wanting to play his game as you know him better than anyone and see the futility of doing that."

Yea, in the obscure chance that he really is interested, he has quite a track record for not staying interested for long...

"Your daughter probably wants to believe your xWH is sincere because children generally don't like to think their fathers are completely "bad"."

I think you're right because she has been changing her values to try to redefine adultery and divorce as being 'normal' and not really that bad... I try to look for opportunities to mention to my daughters positive things about their dad...not always easy LOL
Just yesterday my youngest got an instant message from one of her friends about some artwork she had done - how they thought she was such an awesome 'drawer'. I immediately said, "Well that's certainly not something you got from me - your dad is skilled that way and all I can draw is stick people"

"I would maybe let him know that his comments are causing confusion in your youngest daughter and that if he wants to discuss the marriage, he should do so with you only and leave her out of it altogether."

I'm actually shocked he was willing to discuss this at all with our daughters. He usually just does the Disney dad thing and makes sure all his relationships stay as superficial as possible! He's VERY concerned about appearances and 'coolness' and fun. He usually never wants to discuss anything real. There's like a huge list of topics he normally deems off-limits and reacts as if bringing them up is 'trying to start an argument'. (This was his favorite tactic in getting to make independent decisions BTW - wouldn't allow any discussions of budgeting, scheduling, planning, marriage, parenting - just did whatever he decided and you got to find out later after the fact.) In the past if our daughters tried to talk to him about his adultery or the divorce he would literally end his visitation with them immediately, saying "I don't have to listen to this *@%*"! So the daughters 'learned' to just shut up and act happy around him... In all honesty I can't picture my daughters OR my WXH even bringing up the subject again. Amazing wierdness IMHO that this is even happening now!

I feel like even if he is maybe wanting to reconnect with me this late I'm not interested in lame subtle attempts through our daughters. And I'm not interested in even just being friends with him unless he does the same things he'd have to do for recovery. I don't think he will ever do those things. IF he is trying to reconnect with me it's probably just more of the feeling entitled to have me in his life without ever having to apologize or take responsibility for what he did. After all, what he's been telling our daughters amounts to him being sorry that their mommy supposedly wouldn't allow recovery. This is only a positive change in that he MAY BE at least FINALLY acknowledges to them that the marriage and family breaking up was not good for them (but of course not his fault)...

When FWH and I talked with my children's counselor last month, she was giving us some insight as to the different stages of comprehension children go through. She said our 11 yos and 13 yod still think concretely and see black and white (good and bad, right and wrong). They are still unable to see gray areas.

Our 17yos, however, has matured in his thinking and can grasp gray areas. So he processes this A stuff on a different level.

An interesting comment she made is that, sin is black and white (of course); but that forgivenss and grace fall into gray thinking.

Your youngest was still in the black and white thinking when the A happened. Now her thinking abilities have matured to encompass gray areas. Maybe she is re-processing her history again at a more mature level. I'm NOT saying that her CONCLUSIONS are at a more mature level. But maybe with this insight you can help her muddle through this again because she is able to process areas that she could not before. Her mind knows there's more to it, deeper levels that she didn't "get" before. So now she wants to understand areas that she didn't before, and WH is feeding her garbage. You can help her see truth at her more adult-like thinking ability.

So sorry you are again dealing with this kind of stuff.

Oh I think you're onto somtething there sexymamabear!

One of my youngest daughter's favorite things to say lately is about how there's no black and white... And I have no doubt she's trying to reprocess it all now in some way that exonerates he daddy from any wrong-doing.

I've been wondering if now might be a good time to discuss again with her the addictive nature of adultery? I did tell my daughters about this years ago but don't know if they even remember or understood much of it. At the time they all rejected the explanation as me trying to 'excuse' his behavior, to try to talk them into giving him another chance (which of course he blew and went back to OW anyway). They were pretty angry at their father back then and wanted to remain that way. In fact at the time they didn't want anything to do with him. so they weren't exactly receptive to hearing how his behavior was in any way 'normal' for a WS.

But maybe now it might help her to understand the WS behavior and not feel so personally hurt by it. I think that she is struggling with her own self-worth issues right now and it's hard for her to integrate his abandoning us for the OW and HER little girl with the natural desire to believe her daddy loves her and would never have willingly hurt her like that. So maybe by believing his lies that HE was the one who wanted recovery but I didn't, or that it's simply too late now, she can assure herself somewhat of his love for her despite his behavior?

Would discussing the addictive nature of adultery, plus how people get sucked into it, and why/how they resist giving it up, maybe help her feel it's OK to love and forgive her daddy without resorting to distortions of history and pretense that he was just the victim of a mean wife who supposedly dumped him? It's scary having her 'forget' what really happened and buying his lies now. But I want to be careful to correct her new interpretation in a way that doesn't come across as daddy-bashing; I'd prefer to help her understand his behavior with explanations of the addiction, fog, withdrawal, etc.

The subject of addictions in general came up the other day and I've been wondering if that might be a good way to try to explain her daddy's behavior without pretending he never did it.

MM,

Sounds like it's time for you to walk with your daughter through this journey. If she is re-processing everything on a more mature thinking level, then she definitely needs YOU to help her through it.

It seems like you are very sensitive to not bashing her daddy, knowing that she needs to love and forgive him and still know the truth of his actions. Wow! Kids going through this just don't get a break, do they?

She may bulk at some of what you tell her. But that's OK. In time, she'll begin to understand where you were coming from as long as she feels your love and concern for HER coming through in your conversations.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm so sorry your children continue to face the repercussions of this painful time in their lives.

I pray God gives you wisdom in your words, and strength in your heart.