So then OzDreamer, I guess you are pro adultery-based marriages, no?

FH - I'm still getting to your other post but doesn't the irony of this strike you at all?

If someone commits a crime, do they get excused if they aren't caught for 30 years?

Do we just allow people to do what they like because it was a long time ago?

Depends on the crime BigK, there is a statute of limitation on some crimes. But I know thats beside the point...

BK, I understand the irony and what you are trying to say to me.

But the DIRECT answer to your second question is, "yes." It's called the "Statute of Limitations." The only exception to that that I know of is for murder.

And the "murder" of a marriage could be the "similarity," however, the spouse was not actually murdered, so it would more likely be analagous to embezzlement or theft or even the spouse's right to use up all the assets of the marriage regardless of how it harms the faithful and innocent spouse.

Bigamy laws don't even apply, because the marriage ended.

And most States have gutted "Alienation of Affection" suits, preferring to "limit" the statute to "no fault."

And we probably shouldn't even get into the States that recognize "Common Law" marriages where shacking up for some "extended period of time" makes it the equivalent of a "legal" marriage.

But I do wonder how the "until death do us part" part of the contract of marriage, the covenant, might be similar to an Irrevocable Trust where you give up the right to make changes once it's been executed.

Yep. Ironies do abound.

I agree and they are free to voice it. That's how forums work from what I understand.


Yes I do, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post.

Yes I do, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post.

It came from your utilization of the term "Silly" to characterize those who think that the right thing to do WOULD be to return to her husband and seek to reconcile.

She DID give her OM 4 years to "see if it could work." How about the same time commitment to the marriage that she had? Is it "worth it?" And that's not even talking about what the Word of God has to say about it.

All I am saying is, her 1st husband has more than likely moved on with his life and is better for it. Good Luck To Him, but this lady now has learned from the mistakes and needs to move on also. You can't go back and uncrack the egg.
Forgive yourself for stupidity and bad decisions, make ammends to anyone you hurt and do better with the new knowledge and maturity.

I don't want to argue, it is JMHO and differs from yours.

I’m not so sure he is better for it based on what SD wrote above. I think her adultery took its toll on the entire family and then some.

Its so sad. Shows you how adultery’s destruction reaches far and wide. Just very very sad.

Medc & AGG,

Well..... I glance at MB before work, forget to shut it down like I 'normally' do and come home to find all this stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I will post MY responses to you since you have taken the time to respond to my H's post.

Now a bit of background. H doesn't read or post much on MB. He is now an H but was at one time a notorious WS, then Xws. We have been through a lot some of which (for those who have been here about 4 years or more) have seen me deal with the A.

He read SD's thread and made some comments. He isn't a regular poster here so let's go from that angle ok?

Seems like some here are holding onto a standard that most of us can't reach. I am NOT asking you all to condone any A. It's not about that but from the postings from some in the group, it is evident the expectation is higher than even the Harley's expect.

This is a place where we are allowed to share our thoughts and opinions. We can't dictate, we can share and in some cases try to help. BS', WS, Xws, children, relatives, friends..... many have come and learned here.

If a Xws comes here and learns how to move forward so they are no longer a WS and we helped them learn that, isn't that a good thing? Or is it better to be high and mighty and scare off those who are trying to move forward?

The recovery road is hard. People like SD have a ways to go. Please don't block that recovery. Now there are ways to help without supporting an A. Do you know how?

I will now address the responses below. For the sake of those reading, I have included H's comments so you can get a better picture on my responses.


[color:"blue"] Orchid: MEDC, r u sure you want to stick with your statement? Because it makes you look.....well quite judgemental. You can try rewording what you say to get your correct point across. [/color]




MEDC: Wow, that sounds judgemental. [/quote]


[color:"blue"] Orchid: Yes, you could say that, then you must realize the poster isn't a regular MB poster, he is reading SD's post and some of the responses. From that perspective, isn't it easy to see how one can get that feeling also? [/color]





[color:"blue"] Orchid: Sure.... but the drama you added is colorful enough. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I read some of your posts and welp.... I felt whooped and it wasn't about me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> [/color]



[color:"blue"] Orchid: Hey, he isn't being a hypocrite, he is sharing his thoughts which is what we all can do. Yea, he did it under my poster name and I am ok with that. Can't say I always agree with you either but I don't call you a hypocrite. Chill, ok? [/color]


AGG: Helpful? How? "Hey, I had 10 affairs, and now got a new guy who is GREAT in the bedroom - this could happen to YOU too!!"? Is that her contribution?

What exactly did she learn that she is trying to "share"? That if only her H had pursed her during her 10 affairs, that she might have stayed??[/quote]

[color:"blue"] Orchid: From what I read, she was sharing her experience which for many was painful to read. It must have been painful to live through and as you can plainly see, she is still having to deal with it. Don't write her off, she realizes now at least that there are closure issues that need to be addressed. How she chooses to address this is her decision. We can have all the opinions and input we want but in the end, it is her decision. [/color]

Additional comments: We will continue to hear both from Xws and BS. Sometimes we hear even from WS' and believe me, those are much harder to read than SD's posts.

Like I mentioned earlier, there are ways to help an Xws without enabling an A. It takes skill and the use of MB principals. Most of us can beat the A silly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Some of us can learn to skillfully apply MB principals to help.

We individually can decide which ones we will be.

For me, I know my intent. I am fairly good at spotting a troll and can also tell when a person is more on the sincere side and wants to help. I have also learned when even a supposedly repentant Xws turns into one worse than when he was a WS (i.e. former long time MB poster). It saddens my heart to see it but I have.

Yet what hurts me more is to see someone come for help and get beat up. Why don't we help each other learn ways to help and if you want.... kill 'em with kindness? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Remember the WS virus is deeply entrenched. It may take years to get rid of this type of character. Patience and care go a long way with recovery.

If you personally helped someone recover, isn't that a good thing? On the other hand if you really can't help and only want to browbeat without a good goal in mind, then we just gotta ask.... is that helpful? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

It was a serious enquiry.

You may not believe this seeing as you continually assume I have something about subsequent marriages but I thought I have seen you supporting other affair marriages. I remember a spat we had the other day but can't remember the exact circumstances.


I'm prepared to accept that we should not hold people to values they never signed up for prior to conversion. Personally, regarding Jilly, only God knows her heart but she sure did not appear to be repentant past what it required for her to garner support for her "marriage"


Agreed.


WOW I agree.


Again agree. Surely this must end!


I knew it couldn't last. Please stop misrepresenting me like this. I have very orthodox views. God's grace is sufficient. Christ's death on the cross WAS sufficient. Our faith in HIM makes us right before Him.


In so far as the marriage was someone marrying an adultery partner I agree. But I don't have a problem per se with second and subsequent marriages, particularly where the participants are non-believers at the time.


I don't agree with that. I'd need to consider that further.


No it's rooted in the concept that Jesus said that anyone who divorces and remarries except because of adultery causes the remarriage to be adulterous.


FWIW I don't believe in venial or mortal sins. All sin is deadly.


The problem here FH is that you and I don't agree about what the bible says and disagree over it's interpretation.


Agreed.


Agreed


Agreed


Well DUH


I don't disagree with that either.

But God requires we repent and turn from our sin. THEN he forgives it. It is foolishness to believe we can continue in our sin and still be forgiven. Now all of us have sin in our lives and God reveals that to us so we can deal with it as He reveals it to us.


Well God expects us to renounce and walk away from sin where it is possible or not because it is ALWAYS possible.


This has nothing to do with EARNING God's forgiveness FH. This has everything to do with turning from your sin (in this case adultery) and living in line with His word.

Just because a person walked out of their marriage (without valid biblical reason) does not mean that God says - oh OK - I recognise your divorce. That is preposterous. Neither does it follow that the subsequent marriage is recognised by God.


OK I'll play....


Yes if she was truely repentant and for real.


Deliberate disobedience to the clear will of God sustained over time? Perhaps. God would have to answer that.


Well ALL our sins were forgiven by Christ - all we need to do is recieve that forgiveness.


Moses's law made it possible for that woman to be divorced by being given a letter from her husband. He didn't recognise her current relationship as a marriage though. (in fact He specifically said she wasn't married)


So in other words, the only difference between this person and Justjilly is a few years of marriage and a professed faith in Christ?


Clear.


I understand your position


I'm positive you are right!


Well I only have limited time!

If I may, regards my other reply, Does God have a statute of limitations on sin? I found your statement on that quite extrordinary.

The irony is you argue EXACTLY what I would agree with "not getting away with fraudulently siezed goods" but you are prepared to turn a blind eye to it in other cases.

All,

You have convinced me. It is time to leave this site. It used to be a place where even people who were wrong were accepted and treated with respect all the while showing them what the resources were here, how to use them, and gradually turned those people perspectives to something positive.

In short this was a site of help, hope, and support. One line retorts, black and white statements about something that is very very fuzzy, and just plain intolerance seems to have invested this place by what seem for all purposes to be nice people.

Her post was wrong. Her intent MIGHT not have been wrong. She'll never have a chance to show if it was or what she has learned. Nice work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

God Bless you all,

JL

Orchid, you expressed yourself beautifully, GREAT post.

JL....the tone of this site has changed drastically since I first lurked in 2001, no doubt. Hate to see YOU throw in the towel JL but I totally understand. Thanks for all your good works over the years. You too, Orchid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JL,

It's been a while since we posted to each other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I miss the dialogs from the past where I learned sooo much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I understand but know this board would be at a great loss if you were to leave. You have seen times like this before and weathered those storms so that those of us who needed to see that beacon of light were able to find it.

Please help us get back on the right MB track. ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.

Sorry for not being grey enough for you.

You don't think you are showing intolerance for the views of others JL?

Personally I also think this site would be poorer without you.

I see you still online so maybe you didn't go.

Here-Here MR!!!

So many assumptions.
So few questions.
Such high, high horses! Beware the fall. For some of you, it's going to be a loooooong way down.

--SC

Orchid, my point with your H was that he was talking abount not judging this poster, yet he comes here judging others posts.
You will NEVER hear me criticize someone for judging another. I do not have a problem with anyone fairly judging the actions of another...so I would not change that statement...I would judge any person for not informing a potential spouse of the past infidelities.
Orchid, I challenge you to go back to the beginning of this thread and point out where I slammed this poster or added drama to her situation. It just didn't happen.

Cycles, JL.

I fully understand your feeling have "been there, done that" too.

In fact there is one on the system who perpetually delights in taunting me with things like "when are you going to leave the system 'again'?"

No one is "required" to participate and post on MB. People come and go for a host of reasons.

One thing to consider, having done so myself, is you cannot stop people from dissagreeing or for holding opinions that are different from what your or I might hold or from the "style" that they use when saying something (the way that they express their thoughts).

All you can do is offer your own thoughts and opinions, sometimes just as a "counterbalance" to what others might say.

So the question is who does your presence help or hurt, and who might your lack of presence help or hurt? Sometimes it DOES feel as though you might be just "one voice crying in the wilderness." Sometimes it does feel as though you are being the "Good Samaritan," even while knowing that others might think you are foolish or even might be 'judging' you for helping someone that they don't think is "worthy" of help or who might 'defile' them or others merely because they exist and have the 'audacity' to post or be seen in public.

By the same token, there HAVE been people who have "despitefully used" the system for their own purposes and it is not a "bad thing" to address those situations either.

I would have more to say to you about this, from MY perspective and my own personal experiences, but I would prefer to do by way of email, if you would care to hear anything more.

Regardless, let me simply conclude with something to also think about. Could it be as "simple" as people responding and forming opinions based upon their actual life experience rather than on the "theoretical" or "philosophical" vantage point. For someone who HAS experienced adultery in their own marriage, the effects can be changing and long lasting, and quite different between fBS's and fWS's. People MAY find complete forgiveness and healing to be elusive, if not impossible as the experiences that they have gone through can have lifelong "changes" in how they respond. Add to that the walk, or lack of a walk, with the Lord and where they may be if they ARE believers in their own "maturing in Christ" walk, we are always going to be faced with differing beliefs and differing "points" along the Sanctification journey.

Regardless, you don't need my blessing or "permission" to retire or to continue posting. That is, always has been and always will be, your choice. Just know that your presence on the system, imho, enhances the system even if the system (or the postings by various members) occasionally causes you personal "distress," especially during what you may see as one of the "down" cycles.

God bless.

smartcookie - your "here, here!" to M.R.'s post is interesting. It is your opinion, which you have every right to hold, yet in supporting what you liked in that post, you also "chose a side" and denigrated others who might hold a differing opinion by implication that they might not "agree" with your choice of "sides" on which to be.



There are always going to be some assumptions. However, there are also many stated FACTS of actual actions and decisions by the thread author that people are responding to based upon their opinion of the facts as presented.

However, I will speak to this issue of "assumptions" that you make a little later in this post as it pertains to what MR said in his post, to which you are giving your support.



There have been several questions posed. Most of which have been ignored by the thread author. You may not like the questions, others may not like the questions, but they are questions nonetheless.





You know the funny thing about falling off horses is that you can fall off BOTH sides of the horse. One side or the other is not "fall proof."





SC, this is an admitted "assumption," from which MR is extrapolating that SD's current course of action is "justified."

But there is absolutely NO basis in fact for this assumption. It is mere specualtion at best, and the making an argument based upon that speculation that may or may not be accurate.

What IS accurate is that her ex-husband was willing to try to recover from the worst pain that can be inflicted on a spouse BY their spouse. MR is himself a betrayed spouse, so I am sure he knows about some of that devastation personally. I, also, am a betrayed spouse, and I CAN tell you I understand the enormous depth of the pain and hurt.

It is especially noteworthy to point out that because SD's husband was not responding to her as she wanted and wasn't all that good in bed anyway, she chose to move out and stop trying. She chose further adultery as the "answer" to the marital problems and to the betrayal she chose as HER way to deal with her marriage.

It is just as easy to "assume" that her ex-husband is broken, bitter, and completely distrusting of not only her, but of all women. He did not, so far as we know, react to his wife's adultery by beating her or attempting to "control" her. He went to Counseling, but in her opinion, the brief counseling wasn't being effective, or at least not effective enough for HER.

Even IF he has found another woman (which we don't know), that is HIS right as the Faithful Spouse of a divorce. It is not her right to find another husband to "make her FEEL happy" according to God. That she may CHOOSE to ignore God is not something that would surprise me, but that does NOT mean that we just have to "roll over" and say "it's okay, you do whatever you want to do and committing a willful sin is 'okay'."

If you want to potentially stop someone from robbing a bank and taking what does not belong to them (the money, as desirous as it may be to HAVE money), it belongs to others, do you SAY something when you know that the robbery IS in fact planned, or do you simply keep your mouth shut and LET them do as they are planning without one word of "warning?"

Do you enable them, and perhaps enable others, to say nothing of potentially hurting others through their actions and attitudes, or do you stand up and say "regardless of what you might choose to do, what you are planning is wrong." It is, at this point, before the "crime" has been committed, time to stand up and declare "black and white" issues.

I understand that marriage is more "personal" than bank robbery, but from my perspective, it is even more important because God established the Covenant of Marriage and how two people are "Supposed To" perform their roles in the marriage they CHOSE to enter, even if that marriage was not one that God would have chosen for them if they had let Him do the choosing of "spouses."

Remember, her husband had his life destroyed by her choices. Her fiancee destroyed the life of his wife too, from what SD has chosen to reveal of the "darker" side of their values.

Earlier on I had said that I would not be posting on this thread any longer because I had already made my "opinion" clear and there was no point in continuing to beat a "dead horse." I still have no intention of posting further TO SwingDancer as I have said all that I care to say to her.

By the same token, others can choose to post or not to post as they choose to participate or not participate.

But I do wonder, given your post, for example, just how far her husband was PUSHED off of his horse and how far he has fallen, or is perhaps still falling into the bottomless pit of emotional distress that was CAUSED by his wife.

To assume he might have "hooked up" with someone by now is a possibilty but not a known fact. Even if he has, that is no justification for what SD did and no justification for her not trying to make her previous marriage right FIRST.

Understand, SC, that SD is going to DO whatever she wants to do anyway. She may well "reject" all biblically based opinions because she may not be a believer herself. But that doesn't mean that believers in the sanctity of marriage and the covenant relationship of marriage cannot "speak out" in opposition to what she is doing.

BK, just a note to let you know I read your post and will be taking a little time to respond to a few things.

I am also considering beginning a separate thread for this "side discussion" and not utilizing SD's thread for discussing our thoughts on marriage, divorce, and remarriage.

What would you think about continuing the discussion off this thread?

That would be me...except you are wrong that I "delight" in it. Nor has it been perpetual. It was petty on my part...and for that I am sorry. I have always said FH you have a lot to offer this board....I agree with you at times and other times not...but I know you speak from your convictions.