FWIW, I agree completely. It is quite obvious that a misguided, but vocal few have taken the very good framework that the Harley's have developed and bastardized it with their own narrow, intolerant views.

From my readings of the Harley's words, I simply don't find the comdemning intolerant rigidness that manifests itself in the writings of a few of the self appointed disciples that have formed the Harley MB CULT !!! Yes, that is what you have become ... A CULT that will shout down any who have even the slightest disagreement with "THEIR" interpretations of the Harley's direction.

Also, many feel it necessary to wear their religious beliefs on their sleeves to continually flaunt their moral superiority in front of others. I'm sorry, but its those attitudes that caused me to question my southern Baptist upbringing, and turn away from all organized religions. In stead, I have found strength and comfort within myself and from my family and close friends, which has been MUCH more fulfilling and real than relying on simple faith in a collection of ancient myths.

I may hang around this board awhile longer, as I am still working through some issues that the writings of the Harleys help me understand. I will be forever thankful to them for at least coming up with a vocabulary, whereby my W and I could have a common language to start discussing our issues that normally deal with "feelings" that were never simple to discuss without misunderstandings. Also, at this point, I still get a sense of satisfaction by helping other BH's who seem to lack the strength to stand up for their families to their WW's.

However, there will come a day in the not too distant future where I will leave this depressing place and the "high post count" disciples who prefer to wallow in the misery of others rather than recovering and living their own lives.

Once again, it appears that you have succeeded in running off a brand new poster, who was seeking help and direction, and in the process also alienated a long time veteran MB member ... YOU SHOULD BE PROUD!!!

I would advise everyone to take a deep breath, step back a bit, and really think about WHY they come here.

We're all here for help right? To give and recieve it equally.

Threads like this don't help anyone, and hurt many. Given what many of us have gone through, it just seems silly to engage in this type of behavior HERE. What is the point?

Before you post, think about it. Agree to disagree, entertain the thought that maybe, perhaps you are wrong, or even perhaps that you are right, and someone that disagrees with you is equally right and that is ok! Not everyone believes the same things and there is room in this world for different opinions on many things.

That's all.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with MyRev. I also agree with the poster MyRev quoted in the above thread.

There aren't many good sites that FWS's, or WS's who want help to get back on the right path, can post on and not get their words torn apart and thrown back in their faces.

I hope SD comes back and uses the ignore feature for those who insist on preaching their hardline, no tolerance, black and white views.

I just read this and found it fitting...

Come with me to a third grade classroom..... There is a nine-year-old kid
sitting at his desk and all of a sudden, there is a puddle between his feet and
the front of his pants are wet. He thinks his heart is going to stop because he
cannot possibly imagine how this has happened. It's never happened before, and
he knows that when the boys find out he will never hear the end of it. When the
girls find out, they'll never speak to him again as long as he lives.


The boy believes his heart is going to stop; he puts his head down and
prays this prayer, "Dear God, this is an emergency! I need help now! Five
minutes from now I'm dead meat."

He looks up from his prayer and here comes the teacher with a look in her
eyes that says he has been discovered.

As the teacher is walking toward him, a classmate named Susie is carrying
a goldfish bowl that is filled with water. Susie trips in front of the teacher
and inexplicably dumps the bowl of water in the boy's lap.

The boy pretends to be angry, but all the while is saying to himself,
"Thank you, Lord! Thank you, Lord!"

The teacher rushes him downstairs and gives him gym
shorts to put on while his pants dry out. All the other children are on their
hands and knees cleaning up around his desk. The sympathy is wonderful. But as
life would have it, the ridicule that should have been his has been transferred
to someone else - Susie.

She tries to help, but they tell her to get out. You've done enough, you klutz!"

Finally, at the end of the day, as they are waiting for the bus, the boy
walks over to Susie and whispers, "You did that on purpose, didn't you?" Susie
whispers back, "I wet my pants once too."


May God help us see the opportunities that are always around us to do good..

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'd like to help SD if at all possible because "I've wet my pants once too".

I think it is up to the owners and moderators of this site to decide what is in the best interest of these boards. I see a lot of people come here and complain about the way others are posting...and yet, more often than not, they are the ones being edited (and trust me, I know all about being edited). In fact, those in charge of these boards have only seen fit to edit one comment on this entire thread...I missed it, but obviously Justuss found it bothersome enough to edit it.
FCF, you are preaching that black/white views are intolerant. That in itself is an intolerant opinion. I happen to see many things...most things this way...you don't. So?
I have benefited a lot from some of the posters that Myrev has slammed...and that have "wholeheartedly" agreed with. My posts on this thread have been very respectful and restrained. I haven't seen much in terms of harshness from others here either. What I have seen is a divide in beliefs and principles.

And MR, you don't find describing deeply held religious beliefs as, in your judgment, "myths" to possibly be very offensive to those who do value their relationship with God as saved sinnners?

Are you saying that one of those "myths" is Jesus Christ Himself, what He did for us, and why He did it?

Are you saying that "obedience to God" is NOT what people should do?

Are you saying that it's "okay" for someone to wear their "secular" beliefs or even their outright animosity toward anything related to God or religion on their sleeves, but it's not "okay" for believers to also wear their beliefs on their sleeves?

While it is possible for someone to "flaunt" a belief of "moral superiority," that attitude is NOT restricted to the SBC or any religious group. That is an "equal opportunity" belief regardless of one's beliefs, religious or otherwise.

That is your right, FCF.

It is the right of anyone who wishes to do so.

It is also my wish. But you seem to be saying that the only help that is "okay" is the help that says, "go ahead and marry this man. Your husband and your previous vows are meaningless just so long as you are happy. His former wife is also meaningless and he shouldn't try to return and reconcile with her."

And just for the record, FCF, I view this also from the perspective of one who was betrayed, as I am sure some others do too.

I view this also from the perspective of what MB is designed to do, and that is to help broken marriages recover through the application of MB principles by BOTH spouses, not from the perspective of one spouse deciding that their "feelings" are all the justification that they need to stop trying and "go follow their wants and desires."

The time, if one accepts that there might be any time to tell someone that there might be "another way" to consider, to suggest reconciliation and effort would seem to be BEFORE someone remarries, not after, don't you think?

For those who have been the ones who "once wet their pants," perhaps they too know all the rationalizations and justifications for doing what is "wanted" rather than what is "right and just."

Do not address me MEDC. We've had issues seeing eye to eye in the past and you've told me not to address you before in an extremely rude mannder. I will not discuss this topic with you.

Ummmm... That's a nice notion FH and in a perfect world maybe that would be possible. The thing is, that's not how it usually works IRL. She has been apart from her H for some time now, engaged to someone else for four years. Four years is a long time.

Also, we just don't know enough to jump to the conclusion that is even remotely possible. What if they were terribly matched to begin with? Should they go back for more punishment? Not all marriages are good ones that need saving.

I don't like divorce, I would rather see a couple stay together if possible. Too many people rush into marriage these days and don't think about what it will take to make it work for the long haul. Til death do us part is a quite a while... They also don't think about what having children will do to their M. Unfortunatley, not everyone is dedicated to making it work thru thick and thin.

Does that mean we should toss the baby out with the bath water and refuse to help someone like SD have a better M this time around?

I guess feel the time to help her with her first marriage has passed us by. She came here too late for that.

Well, I see my remarks found their mark, as anticipated.

What you don't seem to understand is that I made a statement about MY beliefs, and where I gained strength and comfort, as opposed to where I find NO strength or comfort.

What I DID NOT DO was preach to anyone ELSE to make life altering decisions based on MY beliefs ... AND THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.

You see, I don't see any place on this forum for religious beliefs. IMHO, this whole issue is about "right and wrong", and in most cases that coexists nicely with most religious beliefs. However, when they don't based on someone ELSE's interpretation, then the entire message they are trying to convey is LOST. Speaking of one's own individual religious beliefs in a debate is only beneficial if both parties share the same basic religious phylosophies, otherwise the poster is simply wasting their time.

Simply put, what you or I "believe" with regard to Jesus Christ, obedience to God, salvation, etc. is IRRELEVANT in trying to save someone's M from A.

Some people need a "crutch" to get through life, whether that's drugs, alcohol, etc., or even religion ... while others take responsibility for their own life choices.

You took offense at my position relative to YOUR religious beliefs, and I take offense at people who try to make decisions for others based on THEIR OWN beliefs ... It seems to me, this would be a better place if BOTH viewpoints were kept to OURSELVES.

I posted to you JL on a general post... then found where this comment was.

I read the opening post when she posted it. She was sincere, and... VULNERABLE... from what I read of her statements.

How people respond to vulnerability is... tragic sometimes.

I will not "speak into" her situation from my POV... because God knows things we do not. We need to learn what we know for application to our own situation... FIRST!!!

And when we really do... we're a little more slow to "read into" others situations what may be true in our own.

Is this whole thread about "should's and shouldn'ts???"... attacking a "real life person".. who doesn't fit???

(the list of shoulds and shouldn'ts???)

Well, I am not going to "speak into" her situation.

There are many things I personally do not know.

But just as a point of reference... she had her first marriage with a man who was divorced already. Do we really know whether this "marriage" she was in... was REALLY a "marriage"... in all senses of the word from God's POV???

I won't say because it's specific to her situation. I don't know... how could I?

However, she was not happy at all in it. And now she has found a man she loves.

How, really, do we know that this ISN'T!!!!... the covenant marriage God planned for her all along????

It very well might be... and her first marriage may not have been in God's will.

I'm not saying I know that... I don't.

But if the choir is going to preach... please get the sermon right.

You can't preach at a woman who married a divorced man that she is still bound to him under the Word of God after she divorced him.... imo... cause WHAT IF... (just a what if... I won't say I know cause I don't)... that marriage wasn't a covenant marriage in the first place??? (Cause HE was divorced without grounds... ????)

Do we understand and know all things??? NO!!!

And what if this man she loves is God's true and perfect will.... FOR HER!!!!

It's her life.

It's her business.

Between her and the Lord... and this I know... we are not HIM (the Lord).

(I'm standing up for her in Jesus' name... any way you slice it.)

God bless.

This viewpoint is the foundation of facism, I hope you know. You are essentially suggesting that Christians should have no right to express their views, while you are free to expound on your own SECULAR viewpoints. One standard for you and another for others. You are stating that your standard of "right and wrong" is legitimate because it emanates from your secularism, but Christianity is not and therefore they should not be allowed to express standards of right and wrong.

How is that you imagine only secularists are entitled to express their views of right and wrong, but NOT CHRISTIANS?

Can we apply your own standards to you?:



Have ya really thought this through, MR? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

MyRev, is it ok if I state that "I don't see any place on this forum for secular beliefs?"

And ask that they keep their views to themselves because they are not Christians? Thats ok, right?

ahhh...I get it, you were deliberately trying to "stir the pot" so you could assume a "higher moral position" for yourself.




On the contrary MR, you are leaping to a false assumption.
I fully understand what you were doing, and the "not God" argument you were presenting as being superior to all other things.




Of course you didn't. You would only "preach" to those who believe that humble obedience to God is the "best way" for them to live their lives, despite what they might be feeling or the circumstances in their lives.




That was patently obvious. As I said, I understood what you were saying. Your OPINION trumps everything else and determines, if you were allowed to impose your opinion on others, that there would be NO mention of God anywhere on this system and just as likely, no where in the country either.




Just so long as the "right and wrong" you want is determined solely by what you define as "right and wrong" or that "secular" society defines as "right and wrong," nevermind the fact that those "determinants" are ever changing and what was "wrong" yesterday could be considered "right" today. You reject, apparently, even the notion of "absolutes" and embrace "all things are relative," in much the same way that Mr. Bill wanted everyone to believe that "it all depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is."

And the emperor had no clothes too, despite what the "society" said.




So what? It is NOT the responsibility of the speaker to determine what the perceptions of the hearer. That doesn't mean that you don't speak the truth anyway, regardless of whether or not anyone will "hear of it."




Says who? You? When you cast a stone into the water, the point of entry my not like it, but the "ripples" may well reach others who are observing and not directly involved. You never know how many people might actually hear something even when they are simply reading and not participating (as in all the "Anonymous" people who usually outnumber the members on any given day and on any given forum.




I disagree. But let me ask you what YOU think is "relevant" to saving someone's marrige from adultery?

What DO you recommend that someone submit their lives, feelings, and choices to, in order "keep them from following after their own desires and NOT accepting that their intended (or active) behavior is WRONG?"




I know of quite a few people who take responsibility for their own life choices, and who's choices are EVIL. But they are happy with them regardless of what anyone else thinks because "rules are just made for the sheep."

You have an interesting way of denigrating God and obedience to His commands and calling God a "crutch."

By the way, God DOES tell us that we ARE responsible for our choices. He also tells us that there are consequences that go with all choices. He tells us to "choose wisely" and not follow our feelings as our sole justification for doing whatever we want to do on the false belief that we can "because there is no Judge outside of ourselves."




Again, you assume I "took offense." I didn't. I found what you were saying to be "offensive," but I didn't internalize and personalize it and "take offense" at you.

Your IDEA is offensive, not you. What you are saying is offensive, not you. But then you wouldn't want to have a discussion about opinions and beliefs and differences between them and reasons for WHY someone may hold a particular belief. At least that's what you HAVE stated. You are "intolerant" of "religious beliefs" should anyone "dare" to state them, let alone state an opinion that might be contrary to the "let everyone do whatever they want to do" opinion.

the MB logo is a red triangle containing two arrows pointing upward --- as if reaching toward ??what??who??

I (and others) know what the Harleys' intended this logo to symbolize --- and it is not a secular symbol !

Back, what we know is that her ex-husband was married before. What we don't know is how he came to be divorced or why there was a divorce. It is even possible that his first wife also committed adultery or simply "walked out the door" to pursue HER own desires.

But if you want to talk about this notion of a "covenant marriage" perhaps meaning that you can divorce and switch spouses as often as you like until you find the "one that God intended for you," we can do that back on the other thread where you and I were discussing marriage and divorce and not here.

God bless.

I think a person began this thread about a very personal situation... and she loves her fiance... and this thread is by her for her....

and y'all should go to another thread to argue and debate.

This thread should be FOR swingdancer (I think that's her name).

Can people agree to start another thread... and respect others?

Or does the end justify the means... no matter who gets ripped to pieces in the fight between opposing views?

This is a person here... not an place, thing, or idea.

Jesus loves PEOPLE... and He died for people...

And when we no longer show sensitivity to a person who started a thread....

I don't know what mount this sermon is coming from.

Just my 2 cents... cause this just is thread hijacking imo.

God bless.

Can I offer you some Deliverance, Pep?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

All I could see was that it appears a human being started this thread... and the great debate has begun without care for her feelings... at some levels.

I think it's wrong.

I'm just pointing out the obvious... that you agree with... that NO... none of us know, do we... and is it our place to go into "dissect" mode???

No.

I'm not going to debate the matter. I think this thread should be about and for in love for the person who stated it.

That's the main point I wanted to say.

God bless.

OK, I'll do my best to explain where I'm coming from on this "relevant" issue ... all the rest is really only "background noise" for the purpose of this forum anyway.

What is "relevant" in saving a M from A, is for the couple to reconnect with the foundation that caused them to be married originally ... "IF" there was a sufficient foundation to begin with. "IF" there was no solid foundation on the front end, successful Recovery from an Affair is basically not going to happen.

So, its about the couple themselves and their plan, which is where MB is very beneficial. The MB plan is GREAT at breaking up A's, but only marginally successful at recovery, UNLESS they have a motivated couple with a solid foundation.

It seems the majority of new posters who come here after having discovered that their spouse is engaged in an A are successful at breaking up that A, but still ultimately wind up in Plan D ... a smaller portion actually recover ... while others are too paralyzed by fear to do much of anything and remain in some type of limbo.


In those cases, where there is a motivated couple with a solid foundation, then the recovery principles can help too. IMHO, the GREATEST benefit derived from MB in this regard is to get troubled couples to start "speaking the same language". Many couples, us included, simply didn't have the vocabulary to communicate our emotional needs, and feelings to our partner. MB provides that vocabulary with definitions so couples can communicate effectively what they are "FEELING" and establish their own plan to "get on the same page" and IMHO, this is invaluable.

So, like most other things in life, its really up to us, using the tools we've acquired, to get ourselves out of our own messes, or in the alternative, learn to live with the consequences of our own choices.