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Well, a religious debate was bound to happen here eventually.
FWIW, I took MyRev's post to mean that advice is welcome, but preaching is pointless unless you know the other person shares your beliefs. It will just fall on deaf ears, or cause that person to discount everything you say out of hand.
I think every person here can agree on the basics. Adultery is a betrayal of the worst kind and is never ok. On the other hand, to say categorically that a relationship that starts while a person is waiting for divorce is adultery is not truthful, its just judgmental. Because it may not apply outside your chosen set of beliefs.
Nearly the entire first page of this thread was just downright venemous attacks against a woman who came here looking for advice. Maybe she is still a bit wayward. Maybe the cavalier attitude that came through in her first post was the true her and she doesn't get it.
The only thing we can now be sure about is that, whatever help she needs or could use, won't be obtained here. That is what I felt MyRev was trying to convey also. That preaching to a person with different religious beliefs won't get you very far. It's fine to talk about your beliefs, but don't try to cram them down someone's throat.
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Nooooo Mel.
What I said was: I don't TRUST **** based on an observed PATTERN of behavior (not on an irrational assumption). LOL But, the 'pattern" from which you draw your conclusion is not a "pattern", SC, since the 2 examples you use are diametrically OPPOSED! A "pattern" is demonstrated by CONSISTENCY, not OPPOSITION. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Methinks you are trying a leetle too hard to avoid answering some very simple questions. [also asked by rprynne, I suppose he is in on the conspiracy too?] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That pattern is: Judge first, ask questions later, twist the responses to fit the preconception. Which describes your treatment of her exactly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Justuss; 12/06/07 01:56 PM.
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There's a new BS that needs help. Her name is MIAMA.
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So are you saying that non-Christians need not visit this forum? Perhaps there should be a warning at the top of the page. no, I am not saying that (I never said anything about "Christian", I said not secular) I am providing you (and others) with a fact
Last edited by Pepperband; 12/06/07 02:02 PM.
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That is what I felt MyRev was trying to convey also. That preaching to a person with different religious beliefs won't get you very far. It's fine to talk about your beliefs, but don't try to cram them down someone's throat. Agree very much. You see, I don't see any place on this forum for secular beliefs. IMHO, this whole issue is about "right and wrong", and in most cases that coexists nicely with most secular beliefs. However, when they don't based on someone ELSE's interpretation, then the entire message they are trying to convey is LOST. Speaking of one's own individual secular beliefs in a debate is only beneficial if both parties share the same basic secular phylosophies, otherwise the poster is simply wasting their time.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men — robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
(Luke 18:9-14) graplin - if some folks are arguing that God has no place in the discussion or in SD's situation, why would you think that this passage has any application? If you are trying to use it against people who do think that the "answer" is in and with God, then the application would be IF SD and her OP even are believers who MIGHT be seeking His forgiveness to be like the the tax collector. We've seen no indication of that and have seen several arguing for "do whatever you want because obedience to God should not be injected as a standard for those who do not accept God." I agree that SD should not be "brow beaten" with an opposing viewpoint. That is why I have said that I will not be participating in trying to "help" her with her impending marriage to her OM, but I WILL stand ready to offer help should she ever come to accept the Lord. I already stated my position TO SwingDancer, there is no reason to restate it again and again to her. The rest of this thread has been between other members and their own opinions of helping someone in this sort of situation. No one is "exalting" themselves when they are saying "be obedient to God." But one could argue that someone taking the position of "I'm going to do whatever I feel like doing" could be exhalting themselves over God and over anyone else. God bless.
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the MB logo is a red triangle containing two arrows pointing upward --- as if reaching toward ??what??who??
I (and others) know what the Harleys' intended this logo to symbolize --- and it is not a secular symbol ! Am I the only one that caught this? Thanks Pep for pointing that out! I say that makes the case for God most definitely having a place on this forum. The poster who argued otherwise is WRONG. So are you saying that non-Christians need not visit this forum? Perhaps there should be a warning at the top of the page. Tabby I don't know where you got that from what I said. That's really stretching it. I'm saying God DOES have a place in these forums as intended and evidenced by the owners' own logo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by princessmeggy; 12/06/07 02:13 PM.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Swingdancer (if you're still here),
Have you taken any time to disclose information about your affairs during your marriage to your former husband? Have you atoned for your past transgressions to your former husband and children (yes, your children did not ask for what you've done to them)? Have you, in the past day or so, taken the time to disclose your previous A's and behavior to your current partner?
I wouldn't advise marrying anyone else until you have figured yourself out; why you do what you do when the going gets tough. You have had NO time alone to look into your past behavior; you have only moved on to someone else that makes you FEEL good. When those good feelings are gone, when REAL LIFE takes over, the daily grind, you will be in the same rocky boat. What have you learned and what are you implementing in this new R that will help to set up EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS in order to avoid more A's (for, apparently BOTH you and your fiance)? For you two, BOTH being former wayward spouses, it is paramount that you learn from your mistakes with your BS's.
I don't believe that going BACK to your former husband is a real possiblity UNLESS you BOTH want that. Recovery is hard enough without entering into it unwillingly. We don't have the benefit of your former husband being here to state what his inclination would be, so I am going to assume that he has moved on.
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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Agree very much. You see, I don't see any place on this forum for secular beliefs. IMHO, this whole issue is about "right and wrong", and in most cases that coexists nicely with most secular beliefs. However, when they don't based on someone ELSE's interpretation, then the entire message they are trying to convey is LOST. Speaking of one's own individual secular beliefs in a debate is only beneficial if both parties share the same basic secular phylosophies, otherwise the poster is simply wasting their time. I'm not really sure why you keep posting this snippet. You are correct that it can be applied to atheism as well as it can be applied to religion, but are you arguing with the point he made or with the fact that he was dismissive towards religion while asking people not to shove their beliefs down anyone's throats? Its a shame really, because I believe the point he made is valid, but he made it in a combative way that basically ensures people will ignore it. Despite the little graphic at the top of the page, this site is not limited to Christians, so out of respect, I would hope people would not come at new posters from the standpoint of beliefs that are specifically religious in nature. Someone who believes in Christ may offer great advice, but lose the intended audience at the end with a single mention of his name, simply because that person does not ascribe to the same beliefs.
ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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Well, a religious debate was bound to happen here eventually.
FWIW, I took MyRev's post to mean that advice is welcome, but preaching is pointless unless you know the other person shares your beliefs. It will just fall on deaf ears, or cause that person to discount everything you say out of hand.
I think every person here can agree on the basics. Adultery is a betrayal of the worst kind and is never ok. On the other hand, to say categorically that a relationship that starts while a person is waiting for divorce is adultery is not truthful, its just judgmental. Because it may not apply outside your chosen set of beliefs.
Nearly the entire first page of this thread was just downright venemous attacks against a woman who came here looking for advice. Maybe she is still a bit wayward. Maybe the cavalier attitude that came through in her first post was the true her and she doesn't get it.
The only thing we can now be sure about is that, whatever help she needs or could use, won't be obtained here. Andrew, That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, THANK YOU, but apparently some can't (or more likely WON'T) allow any alternative interpretations other than their own VERY NARROW beliefs to even be considered. This whole thread has really turned into a truly pathetic display of self-righteous bigotry, and its a shame that the hypocracy of these actions actually turn more people AWAY from the faith they profess. Anyway, I've made my point and now its time to leave this thread. I just have little patience anymore for those of this ilk.
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I am ill about this... not ill enough that I still couldn't shove lunch down my pie-hole.... after all the yelling is done after all condemnation is done after all that is done.... after all the pointing out what is wrong wrong wrong with them.... what is next... where do we meet someone on a road of recovery... where do we meet them if they haven't even stepped on the road... how do we encourage BS to seek the good in a WS... how do we instruct the BS to extend open lines of communication to a WS even when and if their words on a board hurt us... Christ went to and lived with the lowliest of the low... his actions were SHOCKING to the Rabbi's the fact that he would TALK to a WOMAN at the well unheard of... that Mother Theresa in a caste society of untouchables would dirty her hands on a dying person shocking meeting someone on a road to recovery is not instantly equal condoning any of their actions.... in this case we aren't weren't even close to the truth of what transpired....in this person life... honest to God.... I am not posing this issue to be contrary .. to argue with people with whom I have respect to be a part of cause of people leaving this forum (that part does make me sick...) OR even to get in a huge religious debate...(futile in my opinion)...but there's always prayer.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and let me say that though I used an example that was Jesus focused...my question is greater reaching and broader.... and actually has little to do with being Christian or not.... but about being caretakers of one another...no matter what we believe... The Christ reference definitely applies to MYSELF .... but I think the story itself is about dealing with someone/something that is easier to condemn rather than help...as all others did and were expected to do and if no one helps... then there is no hope for redemption or change... and helping someone change...doesn't mean you condone affair marriages... or whatever else.... I am becoming more and more at a loss..... we could do a hostage exchange... JL stays...I go.... seriously... it's a good trade... it's like boardwalk for marvin gardens... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ark
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Someone who believes in Christ may offer great advice, but lose the intended audience at the end with a single mention of his name, simply because that person does not ascribe to the same beliefs. I agree, but we also run the same risk with secular views. Non-christians might also might "lose the intended audience" with their secular views. If the person is a Christian, they might find offense with secular viewpoints. that is why I keep posting this snippet. I would hope people would not come at new posters from the standpoint of beliefs that are specifically religious in nature. The problem is that a Christians WORLDVIEW is formed from Christianity and would dictate all of his opinions, especially views on right and wrong. He could no more leave his religion [foundation for his worldview] at home than he could leave his personality at home. The reason that I keep posting that little snippet is so that you can realizse how silly it is to ask someone - that you don't like - to leave their worldview at home. Do you not see how ridiculous his proposition really is when applied to secularism? You see, I don't see any place on this forum for secular beliefs. IMHO, this whole issue is about "right and wrong", and in most cases that coexists nicely with most secular beliefs. However, when they don't based on someone ELSE's interpretation, then the entire message they are trying to convey is LOST. Speaking of one's own individual secular beliefs in a debate is only beneficial if both parties share the same basic secular phylosophies, otherwise the poster is simply wasting their time.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Its a shame really, because I believe the point he made is valid, Andrew, do you not see that if his "point" is valid, then it can be legitimately applied to NON-Christians? You see, I don't see any place on this forum for secular beliefs. IMHO, this whole issue is about "right and wrong", and in most cases that coexists nicely with most secular beliefs. However, when they don't based on someone ELSE's interpretation, then the entire message they are trying to convey is LOST. Speaking of one's own individual secular beliefs in a debate is only beneficial if both parties share the same basic secular phylosophies, otherwise the poster is simply wasting their time.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Anywho... I wonder if SD will come back. If she truly was new to posting in a forum like this I'd bet she's pretty shocked by the angry responses she got right off the bat.
She didn't know she has to pick and chose her words so carefully. She didn't know she needs to walk on eggshells around here. She just wanted to share her mistakes, she wants to better herself. At least, that's the feeling I got from her post. She might have posted some justfications, but that's typical for a WS. She also admitted she realizes she was wrong for thinking that way.
Here are some of the first responses she got as a brand new poster on this board:
"You have no idea how offensive your post is here I guess-the flippant way in which you come to a forum full of people DEVASTATED by ADULTERY and you post what you do with "LOLs" scattered generously throughout...WOW, how sick and cruel...OMG...Just so you know, the man that you intend on marrying, you know, your ADULTERY PARTNER??? Yeah, that guy...It is STILL adultery today...it will still be adultery tomorrow and the next day...And you are going to be entering into an AFFAIRAGE and every single time you sleep with him you will AGAIN be committing adultery...Your union will NOT be blessed-EVER...It is destined to fail...Count on it...
As far as telling your ADULTERY PARTNER the truth about your past, yeah, I doubt that will happen and he really shouldn't expect it to...He met you as a liar and a cheater...He should expect more of the same from you...And you should certainly expect it from him...What he will do with you, he will do to you and vice versa..."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"This is CREEPY. You are lying to your new lover just like you lied to your husband. Does it never end? I feel very sorry you had children.
I think what you should have done is divorced right away when you found out your man was a bad lover. Then you could have boinked and boinked man after man after man. You could have given your baby to your EX to raise. That way the baby could have been given nurturing, love, and care.
I hope you never have any more kids and do not destroy any more lives. Your post is HEINOUS. Your life is HEINOUS. Good luck MS. HEINOUSNESS> "
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Yikes! Have you gotten tested for STD's?
BTW you are a serial adulterer and it has nothing to do with your husband's lack of sexual skills - if it wasn't that excuse you would have come up with some other justification."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"You know, a Wayward Spouse really has no right to expect their Betrayed Spouse to Plan A them, the way you seem to feel. Your ex-husband did not owe you a Plan A after your infidelity.
The fact that he agreed to let you stay in the marriage at all, after the devastation you inflicted upon him, was nothing to take lightly, sneer at or giggle at - it was an extremely generous gift to someone who was manifestly undeserving of it.
Too bad you can't realize that."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"So very true. She's a serial cheater and doesn't even see it.
She thinks the problems were all related to HER unmet needs as opposed to her very destructive and hurtful choices.
Three guesses what she will do next time her needs are unmet. That is, if her partner-of-the-moment doesn't do it to her first. Karma and all.
Lord almighty."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"SD,
This is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not "Congrats On Your Divorce by Way of Serial Cheating" Builders.
Honestly, its as though you want us to congratulate you on your discovery of the importance of EN, but ignore the horrific destruction you left in your wake.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ADULTERY, NONE."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And those were the VERY FIRST RESPONSES to her post. Not one person attempted to NICELY explain to her the "ins and outs" of posting here. Just attack attack attack. Blech...
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Why are you reposting this if your goal is to draw her back? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It seems like your goal is just to stir up ***edit***********
Last edited by Justuss; 12/06/07 04:05 PM.
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we could do a hostage exchange...
JL stays...I go....
seriously...
it's a good trade...
it's like boardwalk for marvin gardens... Well............ Could you throw in a root beer float, Arkie? Property is good, but sometimes a root beer float is the only thing that will do. In all honesty I feel a huge loss everytime someone leaves. I still haven't gotten over WAT leaving, and am still somewhat traumatized over the last vacation you took. You guys are like my parents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Mel made a very good point that allowed me to step back from some anger that was threatening to come up in me when she said that it is impossible to leave your world view behind. And religion would be a a religious persons world view. Or non religion, as it may be. No judgement in that. Just the way it is. I value those who have the guts to say what is on their mind though. I don't really have that kind of guts anymore... where religion is concerned. I don't want my feelings to get hurt, or to hurt anyone elses feelings, and that's where it usually ends up.
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hum...
rootbeer float with or without pasties...
arkie...
can I ground you or take away your webkins....
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can I ground you or take away your webkins.... No thanks. I'll take a crisp $100.00 and the keys to the drop-top Cadilac, thank you.
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if some folks are arguing that God has no place in the discussion or in SD's situation, why would you think that this passage has any application? It's one of those cases of if the Scripture fits, hear it. If it doesn't fit, then don't. It was not in response to anything you posted. It has been said that people are justified in expressing their outrage over adultery and lying because they are decent people. It has also been said that those who can't tell the difference between right from wrong (as per their standards) should be locked up. These things have been said by people who have identified themselves as Christians. I think Jesus would be considered a decent person who knew right from wrong. And many Christians tend to think He had the inside track on what God liked and didn't like. So, we have adulterers & other assorted evildoers on one hand and the confident-of-their-own righteousness Pharisees on the other. Which group was Jesus hanging around with and which group did he denounce so often? Man's anger does not accomplish God's righteousness. What is the goal? To present information to the wayward or betrayed who isn't totally with the program yet? To appeal to them to change course? To appeal to their heart by conveying to them the pain their betrayed has felt/is feeling? To correct as we have been corrected? To point out errors with some decorum in the hope that they will see them? Or is it to make sure they know how much they disgust us? What sluts and hos and skanks we think they are? What deceitful, diseased animals they are? It seems that the most outraged among us claim to be Christians. I wonder if they have spent as much time privately praying for soul of the one who has disgusted them or whose behavior has outraged them as they have publicly expressing their disgust and outrage? I am saddened that the likes of Just Learning are leaving the forum. That his experienced assessment of the negative changes on these forums is ignored. That it wasn't the adulterers and the supposed skanks that led to it - but rather it was the contributions of those who have become ever more strident in expressing their opinions. Harsh responses not only against the newbies who aren't immediately aligned with the MB program, but also against those MBers who do subscribe to the MB philosophy but choose to work with those out-of-alignment newbies. If JL's post doesn't result in any re-examination of the path these forums have taken, then there is little hope that anyone else can do so.
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