Bravo TIM! That is great about the OM quitting! I figured that would happen, way back in the first post I made to you! (tyk stops patting himself on the back)

Good job, don't worry too much about your W's anger, continue plan A and just be like a duck. She'll come around.

:::LA pats Tyk on the back of the hand patting TIM on the back:::

:::LA then smacks the back of Tyk's head and laughs:::

LA

Exposure works! I'm sure OM is quitting the coaching gig because OMW found out.

You WW won't be feeling empathy for you for a while, I'm sorry to say. Not fair, but that's how it usually goes. You can survive 6 months of an unhappy W. Read LA's good post carefully. You don't want to do anything that will make your recovery harder. You've made some great strides in a short time. Now progress will be slower and you need to keep in mind your long-term goal. With luck, one day your WW will realize just how loving you were in an impossible situation. And she won't forget it.

- WG

Tired,

All is moving right along. You have accomplished in weeks what has taken others 10x longer.

You have a huge load off of your plate. Now it's time from recovery. This is a phase that the time line is completely out of your control. Do not expect you can just to the right things here in order to make it move along quicker.

You ran the sprint with taking steps to create the best enviroment for recovery, now it's time to think marathon.

Ensure your W sees you are not only protecting the other members of your family, but her as well. It may take awhile for her to recognize this, but when the fog clears, she will see what you have done, and respect you for it.

** Edit- After I posted, I went back and read what Wounded Gent said. I said almost the same thing. Wounded Gent is one smart cookie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..

-JKT

Great minds think alike, but WG's relationship with cookies is that he eats too many.

JKT's point about showing your WW extraordinary care now (i.e., you are looking out for her and your M, not merely defending your personal interests) is an important one.

Also, I don't recall that you really know yet that you are in NC. That's the next step you want to work for. Shutting herself down for a few days is different from making a permanent decision not to continue to try and resume an A. Exposure helps (your children and OMW add pressure to really end it), but your WW would be well above average if she didn't at some point try to salvage her affair, however sneakily. Read up on snooping, getting to NC, and rebuilding trust. Any idea at this point if your wife would consider counseling?

- WG

Thanks again to all of you. Seems that my W anger has passed, at least that which was related to my exposing to the kids. Seems that she misunderstood my motivation for telling them, insisting that I was doing that in an attempt to punish her. We talked it out last night and things are much improved.

However... though I think that I understand (thanks to the many helpful replies on this point) the need to be positive, supportive, caring, meeting her EN, minimizing LB, etc. I also feel that a key to my willingness to work on recovery is her willingness to discuss the meaning of the A, the ways in which we both contributed to her decision to betray me for 3 years, and to actively work to address these issues. Failure to do these things, I think, will likely result in continued unhappiness and a repeat of the current situation. I am sure there is no shortage of men willing to play the role that the current OM has played.

My W is not one to go to counseling (ruled out many times over the years - she doesn't "believe in it") nor is she a fan of self-help. To date (I know it is early in the process) she has indicated no interest in reading any of the books recently purchased. I am afraid that after a relatively short period of time I will become frustrated if she has not begun to make an effort to actively work on our M. Should I simply let this go at the pace that suits her or is it OK for me to push it? Privately I feel that 3-6 months of no action on her part would be interpreted by me as a sign that she is neither interested nor willing to make or ask for change.

As always, your words of wisdom would be welcomed.

One more question: my W has several close friends but one in particular in whom she confided about the A and who helped conceal, enable etc (we often socialized as couples) and I have said to my W that I think this friend is not pro-marriage. I have zero interest in socializing with this woman again and I believe that this will be a source of tension (at least) between my W and I. Is there a good way to handle such a situation? My ideal outcome would be for my W to end the friendship out of respect for me but that seems unlikely - and that may be selfish of me. I don't want to appear controlling so I don't plan to tell my W that she must end the friendship but I am fearful that the influence of the friend on my W will make recovery more difficult rather than easier and as such she needs to go. Am I off base?

TIM,

Three years in...how long for withdrawal? See, that's where I'm of no use to you...my experience was short-term, rather short withdrawal (three months).

Have you asked her what's her plan to recover the marriage?

"I also feel that a key to my willingness to work on recovery is her willingness to discuss the meaning of the A, the ways in which we both contributed to her decision to betray me for 3 years, and to actively work to address these issues. Failure to do these things, I think, will likely result in continued unhappiness and a repeat of the current situation. I am sure there is no shortage of men willing to play the role that the current OM has played."

So have you shared this with her? That your willingness is contingent on her choices?

Did you tell OMW's that you'd contact her immediately if NC was broken and would appreciate the same in return?

You don't control the pace, her acknowledging, experiencing...recoverying...you only control your choice of what you want, when you want it by and if you choose to not recover this marriage. You're looking at three years of recoverying, I think. Really tough road. Her not getting counseling, etc. doesn't prohibit you for one second. Yours remains...and contact only just now ended, really, didn't it, this month? You go from last contact...that's your timeline mark.

Share with her you're not sure if you can go the full three years...that you fear her, based on your perceptions and expectations, to control recovery through her unwillingness, her choices...that's YOUR fear...you honestly don't know what today will bring, let alone, tomorrow.

Let me make clear something help you see this differently...she didn't MISUNDERSTAND your intent...she chose to perceive you were exposing to punish her. That's valid...about her...her choice of perception. Then she CHANGED her perception by choice.

You have no control...cannot communicate to her your intent any more clearly or respectfully than you already do...you share...that's your half...up to her to perceive, isn't it?

And she can choose to believe she misunderstood...her own DJs can trip her up just as yours can you...and you remain with your half, choose to believe her truth as hers or not. You can recover and not choose to believe your spouse.

LA

hehe, I think I've seen these questions about the "meaning of the A" etc. on every single "recovery" thread. I made this same post, and I still have not found a satisfying answer. If you do, you win the jackpot TIM!

That doesn't mean that she doesn't have some thinking to do, some work to do, some amends and apologies and remorse etc. Just realize that there is never going to be an answer that satisfies you. The reason is that adultery is wrong. There is simply NO justification. Your W did something that can't be excused or justified, and you are going to have to live with it. Its not easy, and I haven't figured all this out yet either.

The friendship is over. She is no friend of your marriage. My W had a friend like that. She and her soon to be XH were in our wedding. She actually called me for advice as her marriage was crumbling (due to her own infidelity) and I said I would try to help and that I would appreciate her helping me. I asked her SPECIFICALLY about my WW's OM and she denied knowing anything. Meanwhile, she was providing cover for the A! While asking ME for help with her M!!!

I put my foot down on that friendship on D-Day (my timeline was not a MB timeline at all really). My W was not happy but I pretty much threw all my requirments on the table and told her to say yes or get out. I meant it. She said yes to all of them. Since then she has told me that she sees this "friend" for what she is, and has no respect for her. Other than the joke emails this friend forwards her, she has little or no contact. I can live with that.

Anyhow, sorry to babble about my past in your thread, but it is not imo at all unreasonable for you to insist on an ending to that friendship. You can just put your foot down, or you can see if the friendship dies a natural death. Its likely the friend knows you detest her, if not you should make it obvious at your first opportunity. As you work through the MB plans (your wife isn't there yet, I know) the POJA and PORH and all that will eventually end that friendship anyhow. So yes, the friendship is over, your WW just might not know it yet, and this might not be the right battle to fight right now either.

tiredinmd,

From my perspective, your instincts have served you well in what you suspected, how you confronted exposure, and what you expect from your WW to continue in the M. You seem to be a very strong individual with good decision making skills. Therefore, my advice is to "trust your gut" ... you know what you can accept when you look at yourself in the mirror.

There is a lot of quality advice and support here, but its your WW and your M, and you know both better than anyone.

Also, I believe Tyk has given you some very good guideance. I too had to face a toxic BGF, and I too INSISTED on NC with the BGF. At first my W was more reluctant to establish NC with the BGF than the OM, but as the fog cleared, she began seeing the toxicity of the BGF and at this point, NC with her is no longer an issue.

In reality, whether you actually R depends on how much of the "heavy lifting" your WW is willing to do over the next few months. You have made the decision to attempt recovery, but if your WW won't help, then there truly is nothing to R.

I simply didn't have the patience that many MB vets have, and much as Tyk did, I drew a line in the dirt very early and told my W that these things are what I require to recover ... take it or leave it ... and not only did she agree to it all, but she has embraced the concepts. I sense much of the same strength of will in you, and hope your WW rises to the occassion, although I understand you are dealing with a much more lengthy and serious situation that what I had to endure.

Best wishes for your continued success at recovering your M.

My personal experience with MC, and FWW's IC, is a negative one.

Please do not take this to mean I do not recommend couseling. I just wish my experience was a positive one, but we carried on without it.

This Counselor recommended my FWW NOT tell me about the A (while she was having it). Recommended my W file for D, that we had no future in our M, it was time for her to move on.

I was happy to send an email to this MC years later, letting her know just how wrong she was.

Our couseling came from books, this website, and a M retreat.

My FWW also had A support from a few "friends". I suspect it was an adult version of peer pressure. One friend was willing to pass communication between FWW and OM. Happy to provide cover, etc... This "friend" was also involved with a M OM for many years.

To this day.. I do not socialize with these "friends" who stood by my FWW years ago. I do not demand my W have NC with them. She knows where I stand on interactions with them.

They did not hold a gun to my W's head. My W owns her actions. They just did not care enough about me to take steps to stop it. By doing nothing they enabled it, some even supported her. So my POV... With friends like you, who needs enemies? Don't include me.

I don't do "fake friendly" well. I have never looked at sales as a career field.

-JKT

Tired
I've read many of the posts ref your situation.
I admire your perserverance and your dedication to your family. It is a little frustrating not knowing "Why" your wife cheated. But a 3 year affair with someone in your daily life
like this coach reveals your wife is a person who can withhold a part of herself from you,(the part she shared with OM) she is an accomplished lier AND you are not in touch with her emotionally ( or you would have picked up something a LOT sooner than 3 years)
It seems to me that you and your wife have very differnt values referance marriage. It feels to me that your wife has very rigid ideas of what marriage is and she doesnt want any more info..
you need to do counseling for you to determine what marriage means to you and what are deal breakers..
get pro advice to determine what works in marriage..there are certain things that apply to ALL marriages..no matter
what the individual couple BELIEVES.. certain things jeoperdize any marriage
lack of communication, physical violence, ADULTRY, lying,unwillingness to go to counseling, a support group that supports hurting your mate,.. ALL/or any put ANY marriage under stress
see a pro to determine what legitimate boundaries are...
then ..tell your wife what you need in a marriage. then get about rebuilding your life.. with or without her.. being "in Love" with a destructive person isnt love..its needyness and self destructive LOW self esteem..
but dont trust me.. talk to a pro
good luck
my brother
JB

This is great advice (finding your boundaries and determining what are/aren't the deal breakers).

I kept a list that I'd review over and over, and edit. I had my absolute requirements and lower categories of desirable things. I'd scrutinize the requirements and contemplate, is this one really worth ending the marriage over. Can it be relaxed, or should it be strengthened.

- WG

Jersey - Thanks. Yours was an interesting reply that I find myself rereading again and again. Over the last day or so I have been struggling a lot with the magnitude of the deception, the brazenness of it and the total disrespect - all of which are magnified because of the relationship that the OM had with me (friend) and my son (coach). I think on some level I am troubled by the possibility that anyone capable of doing this over such a period of time may be so fundamentally different from me in terms of values, moral compass, etc that recovery will be impossible. Not that I am any less committed to trying but it is sometimes (like now) difficult to feel optimistic about our future prospects. Exacerbating all of this, from my point of view, is that my W has not shown any interest in any way whatsoever in getting started on the work that lies ahead. She is still choosing to read mystery novels rather than anything that might help us (and her) to deal with our current situation.

Sorry for the rant but this whole thing really sucks.

"She is still choosing to read mystery novels rather than anything that might help us (and her) to deal with our current situation."

WW's usually need to be in NC for six months for withdrawal from the OM to take place. Do not expect a WS to be able to much in the way of recovery until then.

That may be true for complete WD to take place Road, but it shouldn't take that long for them to begin to come out of the fog and begin to take steps to repair the damage.

Give it a bit more time TIM. Continue your Plan A activities. Get out of the house, go do something with the kids, WITHOUT your W. Have a good time and enjoy life (or at least appear to be). Let her see you large and in charge, regardless of what she's doing.

She's wallowing in self pity right now (with a good mix of anger, shame, and sadness), and you need to stop indulging her. If she doesn't want to have a good life with your family, too bad, that doesn't mean the family stops functioning.

Make her wonder what is going on, make her poke her head out of her fog to investigate just what the he11 everyone is so damn happy about.

Exactly Tyk ...

One thing I learned on another forum and I think it holds much value:

"Women will not leave a happy man!!!"

OK I get the importance and understand the benefit of my Plan A self but is that to be demonstrated at the exclusion of any and all "negative" behaviors? Is it not OK for me to say "I need us to start working on this in order to believe that you are telling me the truth about how you feel, your willingness to re-commit, etc"? Just this morning my DD (18 yr), who had been acting pi55ed off for the last day, told me that she is pi55ed, at me (!) because I'm being so nice to her mother.

And, Tyk I am willing to give it time but I am reading into my W actions/behavior (I have to read because she is not speaking to me about any of this) an attitude that says "get over it" and other than in the initial days after exposure, a complete lack of empathy, compassion, support for me.

I hope that I am not facing months of this "fog" or "withdrawal" that acts as a total block to any progress. Because at this point I am not sure that I am willing to stay in this M for more than a few months without some demonstration of effort - not necessarily progress - on the part of my W to start to repair the damage and recover.

First off...high five for following the concepts...as unnatural and against the grain as they feel...they work.

with that being said...I'm going to tell you something I've told some folks a time or two in the past in regards to your current sitch.

you hold the ticket..it's in your pocket...it's a get out of jail free card... you have chosen to forgive your WW..and try to recover the marriage. but you are the bearer of your ticket.

she has betrayed herself, her children and you. you are not required to make this marriage work...you are absolutely entitled to a divorce should you choose to do so..

BUT... you could come out the other side of this recovery thing...with a better, stronger..happier marriage than you've ever known.

That may be worth it ?...no ?

However...this does take two.

She can't throw her hands on her hips and shove the "get over it" attitude down your throat. Until she stops doing that...she is NOT truly committed to recovering the marriage.

ANY wayward spouse...that maintains that attitude..especially since you found out about this very recently...is NOT committed to making the marriage work. Unless they are willing to walk the walk...the rest is all lip service.

You can state your expectations...you aren't expected to walk on eggshells...but you are urged to eliminate LBs...and start putting POJA..and RH in place.

These concepts work...but that doesn't make you a doormat...and you should keep your bar raised high. Yes..she has withdrawal...and has her demons to battle...but she's gotta be more open to owning what she's done here.

IMO, as the BS, you get to drive the recovery bus, which means that you get to establish the boundaries necessary for you to stay in the M and work towards recovery. Timing will depend on individual circumstances.

Each of us handle our situations differently, but in my case, my boundaries were:

1. NC with the OM immediately and forever.
2. NC with her toxic Best Girl Friend who encouraged the A.
3. To begin and actively participate in MC
4. Complete transparency
5. Complete honesty to all questions

So far, I've only had to deal with 3 breaches of these boundaries, two being failed attempts to contact OM for "closure" within the first few days post D-Day ... one she confessed, and the other I discovered through continued snooping to verify NC, being the 3rd breach over her dishonesty in attempting to hide this attempt at contact, and all were dealt with directly in MC.

Only you know what YOU can tolerate from your WW, so set your boundaries accordingly.