Let me satrt by saying I wish I'd found this Forum months ago. I have been a case study in how to violate almost all of the MB priciples in the aftermath of discovering my WW's EA...
I did not do this intentionally. I truly felt that questioning her and trying to reason with her while showing the hurt and pain she was causing was the way to solve this.
The Plan A steps are truly counterintuitive, but I can see how they would be effective. I have been trying Plan A for a couple of weeks now, but I'm not sure if it's helping. But I persevere...
This past weekend, there was a HUGE setback in my efforts. Specifically, within about 18 hours, WW discovered my post on here (Titled "I think I've done everything wrong"), read it, and was quite upset mainly with some of the comments in response. She felt very hurt by this, and we had a fairly stern discussion (oops I slipped oput of Plan A), and she left for a drive. She called just a few minutes later and told me that she wanted to call OM (another attempt at NC had been initiated 2 days earlier), but she called me instead. This was a bit of a pleasant surprise for me. We spoke calmly, and I asked her to come home so we could talk in person. She did, and she talked a bit about how she wasn't mad at me for posting, rather that some of the comments by others were hurtful and judgemental. I think this has really turned her off globally to MB / Dr. Harley etc.
The other thing that dealt a bigger blow, was she somehow discovered the spying software I had installed on our home computer. She asked what it was, so I was honest and told her. I figured she could do a web search and find out herself, so I fessed up. She was furious. Is citing this as another control / lack of trust issue she has with me, and I'm wonering if this may be the death blow to our chances for reconciliation.
I explained ac calmly as I could that my installing it was in response to her deceitful actions towwards me, and asked if she understood why I felt justified in doing it. After some resistance, she acknowledged that she understood why, but did not agree with it.
She has been much more distant and short with me in the time since these revelations. Not that she was exactly being friendly or even nice most of the time anyway.
We have been going to MC for a few weeks, but I fear this is not providing the necessary plan for restoring our marriage. She has had an IC session, and has another scheduled, but the general tone of the MC we've gotten together has been more focused on how I haven't met her needs, we're not communicating well, not on her actions. And not anything about her needing to end contact for our recovery to even start.
I have asked her to do a phone session with Dr. Harley as I feel that the MB principles make sense to me. Her response was "What if it doesn't make sense to me?" This is typical of her immediate negative / opposing viewpoint type comments that pepper my conversation efforts.
My question is this, how can I expect to get something out of the phone session if she's not even willing to open her mind to the possibility of success. I have considered doind a solo session, but feel as though I'm fairly well versed at this point in the general principles, and am open to trying to start fixing this. I need her cooperation, though for it to succeed.
I feel as though to this point, our conseling has only helped her feel justified in her actions, and is getting us further from recovery. She's doing the typical "not In love" with you thing. And is also talking about feeling like she's missed out on a lot and thinks about "Open Sexual" things, n on-manogamy, etc. She was only 19 when we started dating, and is 28 now.
I think I always had a fear that this might happen...

Thanks in advance for your help.

She is still a WW, that is really the biggest part of the problem. Neither of you is going to see much progress in your M while she is still in contact w/ OM or in withdrawal, that's just the way it goes. Unless and until she decides to end contact and recommit to putting effort into the M, there's really no point in even talking relationship with her. HENCE PLAN A, THEN PLAN B!

If she doesn't want to embrace MB, what is HER plan for restoring your M? What are her objections to the MB program? Ask her, have her explain it, I bet she can't. What, does she not like the idea of radical honesty? Of course not, she's a liar. Does she not like the POJA? Of course not, she's cheating on you and you don't agree with that!

She was/is cheating on you, and is upset with you for spying on her in order to find out the truth? Don't you see how ridiculous that is? There's nothing there for you to apologize about, so don't. There's really nothing to even explain. You have the right to require honesty from your W. You have the right to seek the truth about your life as well. You were spying because she was cheating. When she stops cheating and you come to believe she is trustworthy, you will trust her and stop spying, that's just reality.

Honestly, so what if she doesn't like some of the responses to your thread? Not only are you not responsible for other people's opinion, IF she wasn't cheating on you, you wouldn't have felt the need to post here in the first place, right?

You need to stop taking blame that isn't yours, and she needs to step up and own what is hers. I realize you are trying to achieve that, but SHE has to take some steps to make that happen. YOU can't make her do those things, you can only tell her what they are, and be the best husband you can be in the hopes that she will realize that you are the right choice.

When you get tired of doing that, you begin to take steps to move on with your life.

STOP trying to make her react the way you want her to. SHOW her what you can be until you don't want to do that anymore. Stop apologizing or defending yourself for things that are not your problem. Its not doing you or your M any good.

Thanks TYK.
One of the things she talks about is "control".
I've never (and she agree's with this) in nearly 10 years tried to force her to do anything she didn't want to until this ONE issue. And yes, I want ther to not have an affair. Not too much to ask, no?
I'm realizing however, that she's really the one who's trying to control this situation. I realize that I have to enable her to allow her to control it, and I fear that I've showed too much. Showed my cards as it were, and have given her too much power.
I'm focusing on "NO EXPECTATIONS" of late, and finding that it is somewhat empowering, but it's still very difficult because I feel her getting farther away, and struggle with the thought that there may be no chance for us to survive.
I don't want to be miserable. I don't want her to be miserable. (yes I still care very much for her). And I especially don't want our son to be miserable.
Some days I feel like I don't even like her anymore. I know this is short term thinking, as I do love her and want "us" back. It's just tough to keep up the friendly, happy, facade sometimes.
Do you think I should go ahead and schedule the Dr. H session, and explain that it's something I want to do?
All she really seems focused on is what she wants.
How come the wayward gets to fault the betrayed?...
It's like an F-ing script...

Feel your pain brother!! You sit sounds almost totally identical to mine as far as the openess, honesty and being forthright is concerned.

I have no proof of anything and therefore am just stuck with being miserable that my marriage is lacking something of significant importance. I am at my wits end.

I have been working on getting her to "open up" for five years without success.

Wish I had some helpful advice for you, many good knowledgeable and experienced people on this site that can help you.

Your sit was so close to mine I had to pipe in if for nothing else to let you know that you are NOT alone.

GL

trytoo..

this is typical Betrayed spouse confusion...when a WS is breathing down neck in a frantic scramble to make ABnormal seem normal...

she says...

lack of trust issue she has with me, and I'm wonering if this may be the death blow to our chances for reconciliation.

not trusting your wife is not and never will be the death blow to recovery...
it would be the FACT that she engages in UNtrustworthy acts...

it is babble to turn this on to you...
it is futile for you to engage/explain/defend...

she says you aren't trust worthy...
you say..

cool then we're even...

and WALK away....

long empty discussion is the death of plan A as well as fodder for fogged up WS...

it's the worlds greatest diversion..

on and on and on and on and on on she can rant and rave abouth the installation of anti-spyware....blah blah blah blah blah.....

great tactic to get the attention off of the REASONS for it...

HER ACTIONS..

don't fall for it...
don't engage with it
don't discuss it...

look you say ...
you don't like spyware..
I don't like that you have OM in our marriage...

walk away..

plan A EXPECT NOTHING

do you understand...

EXPECT NOTHING...cause you go...I keep doing this that and the other...and she does nothing..

so what...plan A has nothing to do with her response...nothing....

am I making myself clear....

no expectations....and plan A can set your world on fire...cause it has all the freedom in the world...

you should be whistling merry christmas cheer under your breath...

ARK

It's funny that you mention the Christmas carol thing. I've actually been doing that a little...
As for the trust thing, I didn't mean not trusting her was a death blow, rather her now having ammo against me as far as trust goes. I did explain that it's her actions that resulted in this. But as you say, she's in a fog.
As far as counseling goes, she says she doesn't think she can work on fixing us until she understands / fixes herself. She doesn't understand why she feels such ambivilance as she "knows" the right choice is to make us whole again.
I think she's having some sort of "mid life crisis" as she's 28, never had a lot of experiences (or other lovers) before we got together. I hope she doesn't need to find out for herself how unfulfilling lousy short term relationships are in order to realize how well off she is with me...

Well Trytoohard most everything you are saying sounds familar. My wife of 12 years was having an EA with an XBF. She finally when to IC and it was determined she was also having a "midlife crises". It seems the IC like to dish that out. She told me that she could not work on us until she figured out what she wanted. She finally setup our next go around of MC. I am going to make sure that this time not only that my dificiencies with meeting her EN are not the only issues. The issue of her EA and how she is the one who does not know what she wants will be the higher topic that needs to be work on to help our marriage. You may want to do the same.

I have been doing Plan A for only a week and a half and it seemed everthing was going well and then all of a sudden she is depressed this morning. I sent her a virtual hug and a virtual rose. When I talked to her this afternoon the first words out of her mouth were you are trying to hard and proceede to explain why. I interupted her and said all I want is a hug. She gave me one and then I gave her a kiss and walked away. Plan A Expect nothing in return.

Keep doing what you are doing.

No expectations!

I try to keep telling myself this.
I will also try to switch the longer term issue of Communication / EN's to the shorter term "Knock this off and everything will get easier" subject...
Not sure how that will go.
Could be your WW's "depression" could be a good sign as in OM withdrawal or seperation...
Keep up hope!

As for the trust thing, I didn't mean not trusting her was a death blow, rather her now having ammo against me as far as trust goes. I did explain that it's her actions that resulted in this. But as you say, she's in a fog

I know exactly what YOU are saying..

but it is your own confusion and living with such irrational stuff in your face that you start to believe...

She has NO ammo against you...

it's a defective movement....

push and place blame on to the BS..takes the heat off of the WS...

and YOU are falling for it...

wrong wrong wrong...

she says you aresn't trustworthy...

smile and walk away....

there is NO point in powerstruggling or discussing...

it's futile...

and if this does't work..it will never be because YOU aren't trustworthy...

ARK

TTH,

You are aware they babble right? Talk all that nonesense. Why? So they can get us to question our sanity and make us enable their whacked ways.

Ok, have you read about reverse babble? Check out my sig link.

Listen to Ark. Change your POV and you will find you have more control and power over your sitch than you realize right now. This will help you to move forward in the right direction.

take care,
L.

ark is right, that is not "ammo" that is THIS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WW has recently taken to "flirting" online through her myspace.
Is this typical of WW's tring to get attention once NC w/OM happens? (We're at 7 days NC in most recent attempt)
I told her that I was not ok with it considering our current situation. She thinks this is me controlling her (I know, Babble...) I told her that it was incredibly inconsiderate of her to do this. She said she didn't think she was doing anything wrong. I calmly expolained that I was sharing how it made me feel so she can make a more informed decision about how she acts.
Essentially, she now knows that it is not ok with me for her to be flirting online, and her actions regarding this will tell me a lot about how she feels about me.
She has been communicating more openly with me of late. I don't think our conseling is getting us closer to resolving the affair issue, though.
I told her that it would be nice if she'd flirt with me...
We'll see how it goes.
Was this "flirting" conversation LB or establishing boundaries?

Change YOUR language...

not a word about what she should do or not do...

change what you say...

instead of you shouldn't flirt...

say..

when you talk to other strange men on the internet and show them great kindness, interest, and humor...it hurts me because those are things I want to share with you....

that's not a controlling statement...

that's a picture statement....

quit saying don't...
and say..
when you.blank blank blank...it hurts to the core...like a one more knife thrust in my back...and I wonder how it has come to be that it is you the last person I ever thought of...holding and twisting the knife...it is curious to me...

and walk away.

ark

Well said...
I'm trying.
This is killing me sometimes.
Some days I feel like I hate her, which is unbelievable to me, that my feelings can be so low towards her.
Our love was always such a wonderful safe place...
I hope I can outlast this and not lose all of my love for her...

I see a number of similarities in your situation as to my own. And as much as I'd like to say that I know how to solve your situation, I have not recovered my M. But I'll try and share a few things I've learned since D-Day in the hopes it can better help you deal with the situation.

You've asked numerous times on your other thread if there is any place your WW can go in order to get helpful advice. Did you notice that there wasn't an answer? That's because waywards do not listen to good advice. They fight it. They become angry. They resist anyone who tells them to do something they don't want to do. They seek out others who will support their wayward actions.

Thus it is not surprising that your WW reacted the way she did when she found this board. Mine reacted in much the same way when she found my postings on a different site's board.

I once thought as you did. That WW could read the same information I read and would understand it as I did. But she did not. She rejected the advice of noted therapists with decades of experience because she 'just doesn't agree.' I did not understand how someone as smart as my WW could possibly be so irrational. But that is the wayward state of mind and you cannot educate them.

I also felt that I had to be honest about the spying. That my honesty would be honored by her. It wasn't and it won't be in your case. Your WW will not come around because of your honesty.


You can't expect anything. That is part of Plan A. I will repeat this: you cannot expect anything during Plan A.

It's very possible that your WW will not get anything out of the phone session because of her wayward state of mind. My WW read SAA and all she got out of it was 'He seems to be very much in favor of separation.' This is because she wanted to separate from me so that was the only thing on her mind: 'How can I convince BS that it's good for me to separate from him?' Your WW may also simply hear what she wants to hear. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't try it. If your WW is willing to do a phone session with the Harleys, give it a shot. My point is really that you can't expect it will help. You can't expect anything will.


My WW also told me she felt like she had missed out on being single and never got to experience living by herself. This is fog-speak and you shouldn't take it too seriously. It's more of a mid-life crisis thing. One thing I've noticed listening to the radio show is that Dr. Harley never asks people what their WS's complaints are after the infidelity, but before. If your WW never spoke of these issues prior to her A, then they are actually results of the A and her wayward mindset. Don't bother debating them.

And I think you know the "controlling" charge is particularly baseless. It's a way to make you feel guilty so that you'll allow her to do what she wants to do. Ignore that accusation.


This is why you need to start preparing for Plan B. If you keep at Plan A too long, your love will disappear and then there is zero chance the marriage can be saved. You need to be asking yourself: what will I do if WW hasn't turned around in one month?

If I had given it one month on D-Day, I would have been gone for 3 now, and my son would have a broken home.
I do have hope that this can be saved. I've really only been aware of Plan A for less than a month, and realize that my first 3 months of "trying to fix" the problem are partly the reason we're so far apart now.
I know I'm not supposed to believe anything the "alien" says while she's in the fog, and not have any expectations. I have done well in limiting my expectations, and do see glimpses of progress at times. I know this is a process, and requires great determination and patience. I know that she does want to save our marriage, not just for our son, but for herself as well. I also know that as I learn more and read more helpful ideas from all you posters here that it gets a little easier for me.
Thanks to all for your generosity and concern. It does help.
Please feel free to continue to counsel me. We are in MC, she's in IC (I'm admittedly a little nervous about what she's getting there...), and seem to have fewer "heated" discussions.
What next?

I'm not talking about one month from D-Day, I'm talking about one month from now. And you didn't answer the question. What are you going to do one month from now if NC is still not established? Continue Plan A? Begin Plan B? D?

I'm not saying that you have to do anything specific in a month's time or two month's time. Instead, I think you should know right now what your plan is and give yourself some timeframes.

Partly the reason, but don't beat yourself up too much over it. I also had a tendency to do that and my Intermediary would remind me that I was working really hard to save the M and I shouldn't place so much blame on myself when it is WW that is truly the roadblock to R.

If you still have hope and can perform a stellar Plan A, that's great. Go for it. Dr. Harley always advises BHs on the radio show to Plan A for as long as they possibly can before entering Plan B. Identify what complaints WW had about you prior to the A and work on solving them. The more consistent you can be about improving yourself, the better.

I would not say that you know what she wants. Even if she has said this, you can't fully believe it.

As others have noted, MC while a WS is in the midst of an A is basically pointless. And IC is not about helping the M, it's about helping the Individual. So I wouldn't put much stock in either of those right now.

Can you define "heated"? I don't think there should be any during Plan A. Dr. Harley notes that it takes two to argue and when an argument is beginning that one spouse should simply not argue. Others here have better advice than I on how to do that, since I have a compulsion to always have the last word. But something like 'I don't want to have this discussion while you are upset. When you can calm down I will be willing to discuss it with you.'

Basically, continue Plan A until you can't bear it anymore and then enter Plan B. You will need to make preparations for Plan B while you're in Plan A, since it will take some work to get everything lined up.

BHHFSG, (Sounds like an ingredient on a package of throat lozenges when I type it like that...)

Just wanted to jump in and say that You have nailed several points right on the money from what I see in the above post.

Listen to this guy TTH. Be sure you didn't miss anything he said.


The 64000 dollar question...


Ding ding ding ding...


Ah, yep...



Amazing what you can pick up by listening to that radio program. Give it a try.


Egg Zak Lee...


Study Orchid's Reverse Babbla. I'm not as good as it as she is, but it works like this.

She says, "I'm tired of living like this."

You say, "Me too. What would you like for dinner."

She says, "I'm not happy right now."

You say, "Me too. I think I'm going to go get a movie from Blockbuster. Is there anything you would like to see?"


I think he's right on the spot here, TTH.

Plan A is about the BS fixing the BS so that the BS is a better S and a more attractive alternative than OP.

Plan B is about protecting what love is left in the LB$ of the BS so that the BS has enough left in the tank to begin recovery if and when the A ever burns out.

Plan A and Plan B are both for the BS. Neither one is supposed to do anything for or to the WS. Plan A makes the BS a stronger magnet, Plan B peels the magnet off the damaging relationship until repairs begin.

Mark

Thanks for the input, guys.
I'm really the heat in heated discussion.
I feel so hurt and desperate for something to change, that when we get to talking about some of the issues we're dealing with, I have a hard time not showing my emotion. After all these years, she can read me like a book, and can usually tell just by looking at me if I'm upset.
It usually starts with her asking what's wrong, we get to talking, and I have a hard time not overemphasizing my points. I feel like I keep falling back in to the quicksand. I know better than to do this. Some days are better than others, but I still keep lapsing. I think part of it for me is that this has been going on for 4 months now, and I'm really worn down. I didn't really become aware of MB, Plan A, etc until a few weeks ago, and am not sure if I can break the habits I've developed in dealing with this so far...
I have another thread going referring to my WW's need to "flirt", and how I'm dealing with that. I would love for you to jump over there to add .02 as well.
I thank you for your advice and support.
I really hope I can get stronger and better, and that our marriage can survive.

TTH,

Now realize that this is just my opinion and not from any MB source or book and is not necessarily what Dr H would recommend, but you might want to try something like this...

She says, "What's wrong?"

You say, "The same thing that was wrong last time you asked. My family is being torn apart."

Then walk away...

If she tries to engage further, ask her if anything has changed. If not, let her know there is no point in discussing it at this time.

Hopefully you can get some feedback from one of the older heads so you don't have to act based solely on my opinion.

Mark