I've posted before but never my whole story. Due to H being home right now, I will give short version of M.
Married 34 years, two grown sons (one married, one at home).

We had, I guess, an average marriage, although H has never been one to express his feelings so I never knew how he felt on most subjects. I'm finding out now that he kept feelings to himself because he did not want confrontation but would retaliate by refusing to do things around the house, etc.

Four years ago, I stumbled across some emails to a woman he worked with. I had never even thought to check his email before as I had no reason not to trust him. I had gotten into his email looking for some pictures he had saved. The emails to and from this woman were not sexual in nature but the fact that he had not mentioned them to me really bothered me. He had become very interested in the computer just previous to this discovery but told me it was because "guys from work were sending jokes". Anyway, when questioned about this woman, he gave usual "we're just friends" crap. He had talked about her to me previously, along with other people he works with, but failed to mention these emails.

Over the course of these past four years, I have caught him in several lies regarding the emailing and other things. He said he immediately stopped emailing her and has not even seen her in past year due to the fact that she works in another building now. He did, however, do a search on her name a few months ago, which I discovered. He gave the excuse that someone had told him there was a lot of information available on the internet about everyone if you just put your name in and "google" it. He said he tried our names and nothing came up so did her name because she is not very computer literate and wouldn't know to go online and delete information. He said he only did it to find what type of information was available - not looking for specific information on her. I don't believe a word of this.

Also, about this time I found a hand written map of a city he had taken a business trip to about 8 years ago. This map was drawn up by a guy who lives in that area and was of the downtown area. It included restaurants and hotels and also included two strip clubs. My husband swears he did not ask this guy for this information. He said the group he was with from our area asked the guy for a map of the area and he included these clubs. He, of course, denies going there.

After much arguing over the above details, I asked him to submit to a lie detector test because I felt no matter what I said to him (I will not leave you. I will work on marriage, etc.) that he would never admit to anything because he is of the mind that he will do anything to avoid a confrontation. Anyway, I made the mistake of trying to find out too much with lie detector test and asked four questions (two of which did not relate to the other two). One question related to use of pornography, one question related to strip clubs and two related to sex with another woman and emailing on his work computer. He failed use of porn and strip club so examiner said test was invalid. Examiner had asked about strip club during original questioning (I guess they were considered base questions to determine his reaction.), then used the term "dancer bars" when he was actually doing test. My H said he couldn't figure out why he wasn't passing test so examiner told him to try to think of any bar he had visited out of town over the years and he came up with a dancer bar they had gone into 25 years ago. Also, on use of porn (it was limited to previous 2 months), he failed because someone had sent him a joke with a dirty picture and that must have been the reason. This all sounded like lies to me.

The examiner wanted him to come back and just be test on cheating issue because by asking questions not related to each other, it made it hard to come up with a valid test. I refused to spent another $700 on another test.

I have tried the use of a tape recorder to see if there is anything going on at home while I'm at work (he works from home quite a bit). I have only been able to record some ramblings to himself that I am not 100% sure I am hearing correctly because it was not spoken very loudly. He tends to talk aloud to himself a lot, I guess. Anyway, one rambling sounded like he was saying a woman's name and then "be married to her". Again, I'm not 100% sure. This is not a name I have heard before, if I'm hearing this correctly. Also, he was really upset that I had refused sex with him one night and mentioned something about that one day. It's kind of strange listening to this but it seems to be the only way I have any idea of what he is thinking. These tape recorders are not terribly reliable since they are voice activated and do not always pick up everything.

I have had two sessions with Steve at MB and my husband has had one. We are now due to have one together. Unfortunately, we cannot afford to keep making these appts much longer and I have many questions about how to handle certain things. So, that is why I am here.

We had originally scheduled a weekend away, which happens to be next weekend. I am thinking of canceling as we are making no progress at all in this marriage, as far as I'm concerned. I have tried meeting his most important needs (SF) and feel that he is making no attempt to meet mine (honesty). I don't even want to be around him most of the time and am starting to feel very "used" by having sex with him considering the way I feel.

My questions are: Should I cancel the reservations or go and force myself to do a mini-Plan A? Not knowing exactly what is going (or has gone)on in my marriage makes it difficult to know what I'm even dealing with here. Also, how do I handle the sex issue (not just on this weekend away but at other times)?

I just don't know what to do here as I'm not sure what has gone on, other than I know he has lied. I feel like this whole marriage has been one big lie. He says he is not interested in any other woman, has never been interested in any other woman and only wants to retire next year and spend the rest of his life being with me.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Shadows

Shadow,

Your story is like most. Instead of using a tape recorder have his conversation recorded on the phone and put a spy program on his computer to monitor what he is doing. You need to find out if your WH is still in contact. If he is you need to let as many people he knows know about the A. Even contacting the OP spouse.

With Plan A there is no mini version. You have a Plan A and a Plan B that is it. It does you know good to do what you are thinking. You should continue to do Plan A for at a minimum 3 months. Try to avoid LBs. You should have no expectations from your WS. Do what you need to do to meet his EN. but also do not forget yourself to keep your spirits up. Do things you enjoy. Spend at least 15 hours quality one-on-one time together. If plan A does not work then you go to plan b.

Going away may be a good thing if you have not spent enough one-on-one time. There is other EN besides SF. You never see an A or M stay together because of SF. It is combination of all the ENs the MB talks about. I hope this helps.

South C,

I do have a keylogger on the computer (that's how I found out about his search on the OW's name). The only thing is, he's now aware that I check the computer, although he doesn't know about the keylogger. The other problem is he has a laptop for work that I do not have access to.

As far as the mini-Plan A, I guess what I meant was should I go on the weekend trip and try to be as pleasant as possible, even if it kills me? Right now, I'm having a tough time with the no LB's and being nice to him when I know he has lied to me. We have had intervals of several months at a time since this all began four years ago when things were really going well and then something else would come out - like the search on her name. So, it seems to be ongoing, even though he may not actually be in touch with her. I just don't know how to handle that.

What if everything is over and it's just a matter of him not admitting anything that has gone on during these past 35 years? What do I do then? And as far as SF, that's pretty much his #1,2,3,4 and 5.

Thanks for replying!

Shadows

Yes, he did lie to you. That is pretty clear. Seems that it may be just strip clubs and an EA. Objectionable as you may find it, still better than a PA.

Now that you know, you have to set the bar and then continue to meet his needs and see what happens. I am inclined, and would hope, that he feels you are worth straightening up for.

Best wishes,

Shadows.....

I completely understand your frustration. It's very hard to give yourself to a man who is manipulating you with lies.

I'm not totally sure what your story is either and don't really know your situation. I guess you have your suspicions of an affair and your H is denying it?

I understand that you don't want to spend another $700 for a lie detector test but you might want to rethink that thought. It's cheaper than a divorce.

It is true that those test are troublesome if you don't stick to a specific topic. Your H is a proven liar due to the first test. I am willing to bet he is still lying to you to protect himself. People like your H and mine, will lie through their teeth to avoid conflict. If you let this go, you'll be avoiding conflict yourself. Your gut knows something isn't right and it won't rest and you'll stay unhappy with the results.

Avoiding this situation will do neither of you any good. It'll just prolong his waywardness and your misery.

Be good to yourself. Get the test done and ask the right specific questions. If your H refuses a second test, he's still lying. He may lie all the way up until the test. My H did. His lies came out over about 3 weeks with the last ones the day before the test. And if your H doesn't pass a second test, have you thought about what you will do?

You will never have a intimate relationship with him if he's still holding secrets from you.

The time away with him would be nice to plan A if you choose. I would plan A him all the way up to a polygraph test. Plan A doesn't mean being a doormat for a liar. Put your boundaries in place. If you don't want to live with a liar, don't. One way or another, you NEED to find out the truth and I believe he is having or had an affair, maybe more than one. Your H will lie to protect these secrets. They always do.

Good luck.

The result from the polygraph exam is a red flag for me. So far as I know, if a person "believes" a given statement is true (or false), the machine will not register deception with the answer. Remember, a polygraph is only sensing physiological responses, and it cannot determine whether a response is deceptive because of an incident 25 years ago that isn't in the forefront of a person's memory. Maybe not. There were just a couple of items in the whole examination which came out with deception indicated, right? If he were involved in something, wouldn’t there be more? Just my two cents. I'm not an expert in that craft.

Anyway, Shadow, if you've found nothing definitive using the best amateur methodology, may I suggest you find yourself a professional private investigator? There are various types of PIs. Some specialize in the stereotypical “eyeball” surveillance and these are the guys who would do their job following your husband around to find out what's going on. Others do electronic surveillance in addition to the more mundane type, and there are some who do nothing but gather information from public records and Internet sources, etc. Find one who can do the job you need, and perhaps you can have done with this whole thing once and for all.

Also, were I you, I’d be ready to sit down with your husband and work out some issues that are addressed in HNHN and the last 2/3 of SAA. I can’t get a reading on the possible porn addiction from your words, but that’s a problem is one that can be addressed by counseling and you two working together.

Now, it seems to me all the events you’ve written of are separated by many years and I’m not entirely certain they might not all be things that happen without conscious involvement to any number of men. I, for instance, was on a TDY once (that’s the Air Force term for a business trip), and some of the blue suiters in the office there took me to what turned out to be a quasi-strip bar/restaurant. I had no idea what was going to happen beforehand, or I’d have declined. It worked out okay. No one went over the line and, surprisingly, they did have excellent sirloin steaks. I wasn’t married, btw.

So...again, just my two cents...I think a PI may be able to identify exactly what is going on, or lay your suspicions to rest for good. Consider employing one, okay?

nmywayhome,

The fact that he may have lied about the strip clubs and EA has really put doubts in my mind about what else he may have lied about. For 30 years, I pretty much just believed everything he told me. Now, I don't believe much of anything he says and wonder what else I don't know about.

Mopey,

I have thought about another lie detector test but I was not very happy with the examiner so would have to try to find another one. I posted a few months back about the experience but will just say that he made several inappropriate comments (started off by defending Clinton. Also, asked if I had ever been attracted to anyone else during my marriage, if I had ever kissed anyone else. It was like he was trying to find ME guilty. He also told my husband that he gets a lot of "woman your wife's age who bring their husband in here to be tested". I guess he thought that all of us post-menopausal women are crazy and making up things.)

I was really upset that they had told me on the phone that I could ask questions about affair, strip club and porn but after the test was ruled inconclusive, then the examiner said I should have just stuck with one subject.

I think maybe you're right though - I do need to reconsider having another test done and should start looking for another examiner.

Shadows

Longhorn,

I'm still having trouble understanding the way the polygraph works but basically the examiner told me that once a person lies, the test is ruled inconclusive as far as the other questions. I didn't really make sense to me but he specifically said he could not say whether my husband had told the truth about the affair or not and we needed to come back to have another test done. This is true from what I've read about the test but I just don't completely understand it.

I have also thought about the PI but don't know how to go about finding a good one. It's not something I would really like to ask around about. I'm a very private person and so far have not discussed this with anyone other than counselors and the polygraph examiner. If I could find one who could give me some answers, I would definitely go that route. But, again, hate to waste the money and find nothing - like the polygraph experience.

I appreciate your sharing your experience with the strip club/restaurant. It is possible my husband's explanation is true in that this was a dancer bar. The women were not naked and did not strip. At the time, he was traveling extensively - actually moving from one city to the next every day doing presentations. He said it was late at night and they wanted to have a beer and that was the only place open.

It's just so difficult when someone betrays your trust and lies to you. It makes it very hard to know what to believe.

Shadows

Shadow, finding a good PI is not as complicated as you think. First, you can actually use the Yellow Pages to find one. LOL Second, you can do a Google Search for ones in your area and do some comparison shopping--interview them to see what they can do for you and what the going rate is. I assure you, the reason you would be calling is one of the things that keeps PIs in business so they won't be shocked you would broach such a subject. Here's something that just came to mind. If you have a friend who is in law enforcement, or a friend of a friend perhaps, you might be able to get a recommendation on a good PI that way. For myself, I'd just call the local PD's detective bureau and ask if they have a recommendation (one of them might just moonlight as a PI, for instance). Never hurts to ask...and if you use a phone, they can't see your face getting flushed. Try something, Shadow. It would be worth extending yourself a little in order to get a handle on this problem.

O.k.- let's look only at FACTS!!!

1. He emailed some woman from work with no sexual undertones.
2. He went to a "dancer bar" 25 years ago.
3. He lied about some emails (you didn't post the details of the lies, so I have no idea what they were).
4. He googled the above woman's name.
5. Got an "inconclusive" lie detector test which, from the sounds of it, was botched by the examiner.

YOU, on the other hand, have:
1. Put a listening device in your home.
2. Installed a keylogger on your computer
3. Subjected him to a lie detector test.

IMO, it's a little extreme and maybe premature. I understand that you're suspicious (I would be too), but I think that unless you have more solid proof, you're being just as deceptive as he is. Your behavior sounds a little over the top, IMO.

I know alot of people here will disagree with me, especially because so many here are BS's. But jumping to conclusions about people without an SOLID evidence is wrong. I'm all for "fighting for my marriage" (so to speak) and doing what it takes,etc. But I see alot of people here who, with no more proof than "he's been acting different" jump immediately on the "he's cheating on you" band wagon. Yes, cheating unfortunately is common and we should all be on the look out for it. But the extremes to which you've gone already, are ALSO destructive to the marriage. If he's NOT cheating on you and never has, how will he feel when he finds out you've been listening in on him and having him followed??? There's more than one way to destroy a marriage and cheating is NOT the only way.

I'd suggest marriage counseling for both of you and individual counseling for you.

Sorry if that's harsh, but I know from experience that suspicion will KILL you inside and destroy the marriage as a whole. I've been checking my DH's email accounts, etc. for 4 years and never found a thing. I've never taken it as far as you have, but the fact that i've never found anything NEVER made me feel better. Only worse. Spying can become a slippery slope where it doesn't matter whether or not you find anything out. It will never be enough. You'll ALWAYS want to keep searching for things to "find out" about him.

Go to MC and deal with the trust issues in your marriage. If you come across some more concrete proof, then by all means use keyloggers, etc. But (and this is just my opinion) you don't have enough evidence to warrant PI's, keyloggers, etc. which could end up costing you the marriage anyway if he finds out.

Good luck!

Longhorn,

I think after the ordeal with the polygraph examiner, I just don't want to end up paying again for something that is just a waste of money. But it may be something I end up doing. I'm not really embarrassed to speak to the PI because I'm sure they've heard worse stories. I just meant I didn't want to ask around (as in my friends and coworkers) for a reference since they are not aware of what is going on in my marriage.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Shadows

want2believe,

I think the fact that my H lied in the beginning about receiving these emails was the first red flag. I had asked him several times why he was suddenly so interested in the computer and he never mentioned exchanging emails with this woman. After I told him I didn't think it was right for him to be privately emailing her, he said he wouldn't do it anymore and would delete her email address. Instead, he changed it so that it was filed under something else. He said he thought that would change the way it appeared if she sent him an email because he didn't want me to be mad if that happened. He said he wasn't going to email her anymore.

He also had sent her a picture of himself taken on our vacation. This was the first time we had been away for a whole week by ourselves in 30 years. I felt like he was kind of distant the whole time we were gone and then when we came home, his biggest concern was downloading the pictures we had taken. I, of course, was busy doing the usual million things you have to do when you come home from being away for a week - laundry, mail, etc. He said he was downloading the pictures because I had said I wanted to send them to a friend of mine. He had actually taken a picture of himself and sent it to her. She immediately responded by sending a picture of herself taken at a seminar with other people from work. I don't know, I guess I never thought about sending my picture to any of my coworkers. That was another red flag.

As far as the lie detector test, my husband really tried to get out of that one. Not that I blame him, even if he is innocent. It's not something to look forward to and there's always that outside chance you could be telling the truth and the test shows you're lying. I personally don't think it happens often but I really don't know. He definitely failed the test on two of the questions. The other two (about the OW) were inconclusive because of the fact that he failed part of the test.

I'm just beginning to understand how my husband will do absolutely anything (including lying) to avoid a confrontation. I also feel that, over the years, he has chosen to avoid expressing his feelings about things and then made me pay later by retaliating in some way. He has even admitted this, although he says he would only retaliate by not doing things around the house that I had asked him to do.

Unfortunately, when you keep catching your spouse in lies, it makes it very difficult to believe anything anymore. And because he used to travel quite a bit for his job, that makes it even worse. You start wondering what else has gone on in the last 35 years.

I actually did go to counseling on my own when this first came out 4 years ago. My H went a couple of times only to "help me with my problem". The counselor basically did not think much of my husband's attitude but felt I should just accept that he lies because "we're all sinners". I recently went to another counselor but all she could come up with is that I needed to make him feel safe enough to tell the truth. That I should remain calm and not get upset when he told me things. These are things I know I need to work on and have worked on. But the bottom line is that you can't make a person tell you the truth. That's where the lie detector test came in. I thought it would settle things once and for all and then we could go on with our lives. Unfortunately, it didn't work that way.

This website has been a blessing to me. I have learned so much more here than any time spent in counseling. I appreciate your help and wish you the best also.

Shadows

Want2Believe......

With all due respect, I disagree with almost your entire post. So much so, I felt I really needed to respond to prevent any harm from being done.

Let's look at the facts:

1. He emailed some woman from work with no sexual undertones.

* The e-mails may have been innocent, but as most of us here know, this can be a slippery slope. However, I don't know if it was business or personal e-mails. If he was sharing any parts of his life with her "as friends", he could have been having the start of an emotional affair with her. And that was 4 years ago right? And am I right and saying that he still thinks of her possibly to this day? I feel her husband e-mailing another woman on a "friendship" level, unless it's business related, is not appropriate in most cases unless all of it is shared with his wife.


2. He went to a "dancer bar" 25 years ago.

* It was a long time ago. It just means he wasn't opposed to that kind of sleezy thing back then. I wonder if he would still go to one today?


3. He lied about some emails (you didn't post the details of the lies, so I have no idea what they were).

* "He lied about some emails". And you don't think lying is cause for concern? You CANNOT trust liars. They lie to hide secrets. WSs lie ALL THE TIME. WSs can lie and hide their secrets very well. MOST of us BSs have felt things weren't right, just like Shadow. Some WSs have hid their secrets for YEARS. My H hid some of his secrets for 16 years! He was an excellent liar, and just like shadow there were the little things just like this. Shadow, we do need more info on the lies to help you.


4. He googled the above woman's name.

* Not a big deal really. But why her name? He COULD HAVE been trying to find her again. He could have been lying to cover the google search up. Most WSs lie to protect themselves.


5. Got an "inconclusive" lie detector test which, from the sounds of it, was botched by the examiner.

* It does like the examiner was a jerk. And it's true that it's hard to get a good test if the subject is too spread out. However, I don't understand if he really failed the first two questions. At any rate, I highly recommend a second test. Just for the mere fact that her husband was a proven liar regarding the e-mails. He should WANT to do another test to prove to her that he is being honest. He lost her trust. He has to earn it back. He should NOT demand her to trust him because he's not proven himself trustworthy yet after lying.

YOU, on the other hand, have:

1. Put a listening device in your home.

*That is correct and an appropriate thing to do to find out for sure if he is cheating. We even have a thread here called "Spying 101" just for instances such as this. Good job shadow. IF you find out your H did have some kind of affair, EA or PA, and he is remorseful and wanting your marriage, he will have no problem being transparent to you. He'll want to earn your trust back. He will understand your need to find out the reality of your life if he was manipulating it for you with his lies. He11, what if he did have a PA with unprotected sex? He could be risking her life. If it wasn't for the not talked about emails and the lying, this probably wouldn't be an issue. BUT IT IS.

2. Installed a keylogger on your computer

* Great way to catch a cheat who e-mails. Again, if your H wants a great marriage with openness and honesty, he'd have no trouble giving up all his passwords, etc.

3. Subjected him to a lie detector test.

* I would too. He lies and he's still doing things that are suspicious. She should do another one to nip this in the bud once and for all. AND ask for complete transparency.











She needs to snoop to get the SOLID evidence.

Sorry if that's harsh, but I know from experience that suspicion will KILL you inside and destroy the marriage as a whole.

That's why she needs proof. And if she doesn't snoop and the H is having an affair, the affair can kill the marriage as well.





People use keyloggers and such to get concrete proof. I think the lying and e-mails to another is PLENTY of evidence to warrant her snooping.

Shadow......



These are huge red flags. I suspect your H has had, or is having an affair. Do not let this go.



My husband was the EXACT same way. This behavior is called "passive-agressive". Please look it up. There's a good definition of Wikipedia. It's abusive behavior and controlling.



And this is called "gaslighting". Please look this one up as well. It's a cruel form of emotional abuse. My H, and most WSs, do this as well to take the heat off them and blameshift.

want2believe, the fact that folks here are betrayed spouses does not make them UNOBJECTIVE, rather it makes them EXPERIENCED. If you want someone to diagnose your car problem, are you going to go to an EXPERIENCED master mechanic or are you going to go to someone who has no experience diagnosing and fixing car problems? The folks here are pretty darn good at spotting the signs, so I would caution you about dismissing their experience. That would be a mistake, I assure you.

Secondly, snooping is RECOMMENDED by Dr. Harley. If a spouse objects to snooping it is a sign that he has something to hide. It is not lack of trust that destroys a marriage, but LACK OF BOUNDARIES. And if Shadows has concerns about his trustworthiness, she needs to investigate.

Dr Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

[


con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

So I guess by your estimation that if a H lies about ANYTHING they're automatically a cheater and should be put under constant surveilance. Not a good foundation for a marriage either, IMO.

I DO think that she should be concerned. And I DON'T think that she should sit back and do nothing. But I still think what she has done is over the top.

I hope she's prepared to possibly lose her marriage if her H is innocent and finds out what she's been doing.

But again, this board is filled with BS's who are very quick to proclaim others as "guilty" w/o nearly enough evidence and turn suspicous wives into paranoid ones too. Just as destructive to marriages!!!!!

Shadows- I know nothing I say will stop you from doing this and talking to your husband instead. I just wish you the best of luck and pray that this behavior either gives you the information you seem to need (guilty) or doesn't come back to bite you in the butt and cost you the marriage.

Good luck to you!

want2believe, the fact that folks here are betrayed spouses does not make them UNOBJECTIVE, rather it makes them EXPERIENCED. If you want someone to diagnose your car problem, are you going to go to an EXPERIENCED master mechanic or are you going to go to someone who has no experience diagnosing and fixing car problems? The folks here are pretty darn good at spotting the signs, so I would caution you about dismissing their experience. That would be a mistake, I assure you.

Secondly, snooping is RECOMMENDED by Dr. Harley. If a spouse objects to snooping it is a sign that he has something to hide. It is not lack of trust that destroys a marriage, but LACK OF BOUNDARIES. And if Shadows has concerns about his trustworthiness, she needs to investigate.

Dr Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?




con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

[/quote]

My husband was the EXACT same way. This behavior is called "passive-agressive". Please look it up. There's a good definition of Wikipedia. It's abusive behavior and controlling. [quote]

mopey,

I have ordered a book on this subject after I read several other posts concerning this type of behavior. I also agree with the "gaslighting" - did some reading on that as well. I just don't know how I lived with this man for almost 35 years and never realized any of this. All of the problems in this marriage have been my fault, according to him.

I just don't know how to proceed from here. I think I mentioned we have had 3 sessions with Steve H (I had one, then H, and then me again). We are due for one together but need to fill out HS/HN questionnaires. The last week has not been good around here and I almost threw in the towel. I'm trying to tell myself we need to continue with at least one or two more sessions with Steve.

Shadows

Sorry, I somehow messed up my previous post and quotes from Mopey ended up in the wrong place. Not sure what I did wrong but hopefully I'll figure it out!

Shadows

want2believe,

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from here. I did talk to my husband about this whole thing - over and over again. I told him if he would just tell me the truth, I would do whatever it took to keep this marriage together. He still says he did nothing wrong.

And as far as needing to find him guilty, I really don't understand that statement. Why would anyone want their spouse to be guilty of an affair? I was trying so hard to believe that he was innocent that I actually convinced myself that he would pass the lie detector test and then we could go on with our lives. That didn't happen. But, as usual, he had an excuse for everything.

Shadows