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yep you are right....
remorse is an action/s
exactly what have you told your wife...
and
exactly what actions are you waiting to see from her...
ARK
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Krazy,
Your subject line must have hit a nerve because it seems to be getting a lot of attention.
What about BR's question about IC?
People are complex, and sometimes I think IC is the only way for some to realize why they think and feel the way that they do.
As I said above, I think most marriages that go through this would need to IC and MC to make it. Individual effort just doesn't seem to be enough, particularly when only one is putting forth the effort.
onmywayhome
Me - 40
S - 32
Married Jan/2006
5 kids from previous marriage
1 son from current marriage
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yep you are right....
remorse is an action/s
exactly what have you told your wife...
and
exactly what actions are you waiting to see from her...
ARK I've told her too much to recall, but above all else i've told her I still love her, I want our marriage to work, and I'd like to be able to forgive her eventually. As far as actions I'd like to see from her, I can think of only two right now. 1. Not have an affair of any kind. 2. Approach me with the same care-free enthusiasm and wreckless abandon as OM. No specific acts or anything...it's all about the mind-set.
Divorced
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IC and MC are not possible right now.
My insurance paid for X number of visits in a lifetime. Unfortunately, we used most of those on MC in '05 to try and deal with my insecurity and jealously. I seemed convinced at the time that she was up to something, but I had no evidence, and no concrete reason to think so. I was made to think I was out of control and about to destroy my M.
Of course, that was right in the middle of her A.
We've read books and discussed things at great length over and over again.
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2. Approach me with the same care-free enthusiasm and wreckless abandon as OM. No specific acts or anything...it's all about the mind-set. Now, THIS statment I can hang on to. This is what I want to achieve in my M; this is what I once had with my FWH, and hope to have again. Even if the flesh were willing, my FWH's heart and mind are not in sync, and are not ready. I wonder how much this has to do with me, and my approach, and my anger, and how much of this has to do with his willingness to explore his own inner workings.
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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That's for her to decide. I disagree. Its a practical impossibility. You have already essentially said this. I believe in another thread you basically said that A's are nothing more than somebody being horny and wanting some strange. You have implied that A's do not involve underlying personality problems, no issues with EN's, etc, etc. Well, since you are the BS, you can't ever be some "strange". Further, if A's are only for sex, then there would be no time during an A that the WS is not horny. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic. I'm right there with you. I'd just suggest you stop trying to compare your M and your WW's actions in your M to her A and her actions during her A. You'll have a better shot at recovery, if that is what you want.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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You're expecting her desire to be rational, but for some that is a foreign notion. There is healthy desire and unhealthy desire. She has chosen unhealthy desire. You perceive her actions as a rejection but a substantive relationship is more than just rutting. Do you feel you are competing with her diminished notions of healthy sexuality? Do you want her to replicate that conduct with you? Is that what you really want for yourself? I have a feeling that you want something more substantial--but it will take a great amount of work on herself before she is available to meet you there.
--Brix
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I will not, however, live with the knowledge that there is some guy out there who did things with my W that I can't have anymore....and that the only reason I can't is because he did. Krazy, FWIW, I understand the above quote completely and fully support your position. It appears that some of the female posters are having a problem with your "delivery", but from my perspective, I understand what you are trying to communicate and achieve. GOOD LUCK to you in your quest.
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Let's say I give up what I want. I bite the bullet, swallow my pride, whatever you want to call it.
What should she be expected to give up? Sex with OM?
I know life isn't fair, but we're not talking about life in general...we're talking about the specific actions of one person.
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You need not bite the bullet or swallow your pride. You deserve what you need out of a relationship.
I just don't think the way that you are approaching this situation is going to get you what you want.
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Krazy71, has your W ever expressed to you why she is not interested in performing those "specific actions" with you?
ManInMotion
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(see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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You need not bite the bullet or swallow your pride. You deserve what you need out of a relationship.
I just don't think the way that you are approaching this situation is going to get you what you want. I don't know of any other way to approach it. If I have to work extra hard in other areas and wait for who knows how long, then my need still isn't being met. It was very, very easy for OM. If I have to put out far more effort to accomplish the same thing, my need isn't being met.
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I don't think any of us are suggesting you not get what you need from your wife. I wonder if what you need isn't to punish her, that's all. Do you really NEED these things or do you want them solely because OM got them?
Again, if you can only have things one way, that is your choice, and it is understandable to want what you want. I think the way in which you are saying it does smack of punishment, instead of pleasure for the BOTH of you.
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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Krazy71, has your W ever expressed to you why she is not interested in performing those "specific actions" with you? It's not so much specific actions, it's a mind-set. The reasons are the pregnancy, and the aftermath of the A. The baby is 9 months old now, and we're still on the roller coaster. I understand her reasons. They are valid, and I won't dispute them. She has the right to react to any situation however she sees fit. Nothing on her end will eliminate my need. I've been patient for 17 months.
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I don't think any of us are suggesting you not get what you need from your wife. I wonder if what you need isn't to punish her, that's all. Do you really NEED these things or do you want them solely because OM got them?
Again, if you can only have things one way, that is your choice, and it is understandable to want what you want. I think the way in which you are saying it does smack of punishment, instead of pleasure for the BOTH of you. I don't intend to punish her. I want her to enjoy it, just like she did with OM, or more. To enjoy something with OM, then be unable to with me after all she's put me through, to not even try, is unacceptable. If I was a BW insisting that my FWH hold my hand in public because he did with OW, I doubt anyone would see it as punishment.
Last edited by Krazy71; 12/10/07 01:08 PM.
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Marriages are long complex relationships - a unique pattern of good and bad and stress and beauty and all that stuff that makes an incredible, UNIQUE, mosaic.
One of the attractions of an affair is that it is, seemingly, uncomplicated.
You will never have what she had with OM. Why? Because what they had was uncomplicated selfishness.
For women, that mosaic is a critical context to marital sex.
Reducing it to a specific position or action with an OM reduces your marriage to the level of an affair.
This takes TIME. And it just bloody SUCKS for the BS while going through it.
Your wife, if she does what she needs to do to recover HERSELF, will one day be able to give you BETTER than what she did with the OM.
But she is going to need a context that is not angry, bitter and punishing.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Marriages are long complex relationships - a unique pattern of good and bad and stress and beauty and all that stuff that makes an incredible, UNIQUE, mosaic.
One of the attractions of an affair is that it is, seemingly, uncomplicated.
You will never have what she had with OM. Why? Because what they had was uncomplicated selfishness.
For women, that mosaic is a critical context to marital sex.
Reducing it to a specific position or action with an OM reduces your marriage to the level of an affair.
This takes TIME. And it just bloody SUCKS for the BS while going through it.
Your wife, if she does what she needs to do to recover HERSELF, will one day be able to give you BETTER than what she did with the OM.
But she is going to need a context that is not angry, bitter and punishing. So, once again, I've got to put my needs on the back burner, "get over it", be a good boy and then MAYBE, somewhere down the road, I'll get some vague facsimile of my needs being met. One would think it's easier to let loose sexually than to get over being betrayed and having your life annihilated, but that's just me.
Last edited by Krazy71; 12/10/07 01:13 PM.
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I don't think any of us are suggesting you not get what you need from your wife. I wonder if what you need isn't to punish her, that's all. Do you really NEED these things or do you want them solely because OM got them? I don't intend to punish her. I want her to enjoy it, just like she did with OM, or more. To enjoy something with OM, then be unable to with me after all she's put me through, to not even try, is unacceptable. I'm female and I totally agree with you. She should be willing to do whatever she can to meet your needs in that area. If that includes doing something with you and she used to do with OM I think she should. (ducking from the 2/4's)
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I don't think any of us are suggesting you not get what you need from your wife. I wonder if what you need isn't to punish her, that's all. Do you really NEED these things or do you want them solely because OM got them? I don't intend to punish her. I want her to enjoy it, just like she did with OM, or more. To enjoy something with OM, then be unable to with me after all she's put me through, to not even try, is unacceptable. I'm female and I totally agree with you. She should be willing to do whatever she can to meet your needs in that area. If that includes doing something with you and she used to do with OM I think she should. (ducking from the 2/4's) I'm not saying that I want to replicate positions, etc...we've already done everything 2 people can do together. It all has to do with attitude and mindset.
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So, once again, I've got to put my needs on the back burner, "get over it", be a good boy and then MAYBE, somewhere down the road, I'll get some vague facsimile of my needs being met. Well, you can sit on your pity pot, crying about Not Fair! and She Owes ME.... Or you can take responsibility for your own recovery and let her work hers out. If you gain, at her expense, your MARRIAGE loses. You made the choice to go through recovery, so its up to you to participate by pulling your part. What you WANT right now is normal, but NOT healthy or productive. If you want selfish dirty sex - go get it - after you are divorced. But demanding selfish dirty sex from your wife as your EN is going to destroy your claimed goal of recovery. You THINK that it will make you feel better...but what it will do is HARM YOUR WIFE. How does recovery work by demanding that she be harmed?
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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