My husband admitted today that he used "Blondie" for sexual gratification, but claims he did not "touch" her. He said he did the same with multiple former secretaries as well.

This admission confirms that he lied on at least one polygraph question, rendering the 5-hour perfectly executed Polygraph Test invalid.

I have more things to say about what's happened since I last posted, but I'm still trying to cool down my blushing, heated face since our last conversation this afternoon.

What am I missing here.... is your H Bill C?

L.

Orchid,

It's great to hear from you again!


Oh, my gosh. I'm still laughing. Actually, it's not even funny.

Well, he looks like him, he talks like him, he prays like him, and he covers his tracks like him...so he must be...but I'm no Hillary!

Should I add that his Uncle is a regular at a nude beach?

Were any of the women in the same room that he was in at the time he used them for sexual gratification?

Lake53,

How have you been? I miss you too!


I don't know. At the time, I didn't think of asking.

I had caught him offguard with a clever question and once he began saying names and numbers, I think I sort of shut down.

A lot was going through my mind and the look on his face showed me that he was stuck and had to answer with at least some truth.

I'm sure we will be discussing this further, although it will be hard to know when he is telling the truth.

He did say that he didn't tell me before because it was so "shameful".

Okay, here are the main events that happened since my last thread:

- Broke down (exposed to older children)
- Polygraph Test
- 24th Anniversary (became acquaintances)
- Deliberate lie (with gaslighting to cover up)
- Late night drive (close call, treadmill)
- He switches from SA to Recovery Nation
- 50th Birthday (his plan)
- Blondie's job search
- Insight to voyeurism
- Considered annulment
- Admits to sexual gratification (where this thread began)
- Approaching fitness goal

I would like to talk about the lie that eventually led to some truth before I began this new thread, unless someone is interested in any of the other topics listed above.

Okay, we ended up having the "sexual gratification" conversation because he wanted to know if I was content with the status of our marriage: acquaintances.

I said yes, and my reason was that we had no foundation of truth and fidelity to build on anyway.

He asked me what my plans were and if I was considering ending it with him.

I said I believed he was a liar and adulterer when we married, making our marriage vows invalid, therefore implying that there could be an annulment in our future.

He didn't readily object to being a liar (you'll see why below). But he seemed to want to claim his innocence as an adulterer.

So he said that he hasn't done anything physical, and that you have to be physical with someone else to be an adulterer.

Then I asked him, "You mean you haven't used your body for lusting"?

He looked at me with a blank stare and said the same thing he did on a question that I had asked for the polygraph test: "What do you mean"?

Instantly, I knew he wanted to deceive me. I could hear the clock ticking away in his mind, as he searched for the right things to say.

So I answered the same as I did for the polygraph test: "Just what I said", and then repeated the question for him.

But this time I added, "Now's your chance to tell the truth", as we both knew our relationship wasn't going anywhere without it.

He paused, his facial expression changed dramatically, and then he began spitting out information. Really, I was shocked he was telling me anything at all.

It was kind of a blur for me, as I registered names and faces in my mind and tried counting secretaries from the past as he spoke.

Rewind...

One of the reasons we got that far with some truth is because our marriage recovery took a MAJOR BLOW about a couple weeks after our 24th Anniversary (which immediately followed the polygraph test), when we had decided to be acquaintances until trust could be established in our marriage.

You see, he had lied to me BIG TIME and I happened to have had the evidence on his whereabouts and activities to prove it without a doubt.

He didn't know this and had promised me up and down that he had nothing to hide and that he was being completely honest with me.

It was one of the most surreal experiences in our marriage for me.

The lie unfolded with beautiful words and wonderful claims. All I could think about while reading his emails was the evidence I already had tucked away - making him quite the conniving liar.

I became somewhat comical in my replies and asked questions repeatedly to give him another, and another, and yet another chance to come clean on the spot. He couldn't find it in himself to do it.

Here are parts of our emails to each other:

[color:"blue"]ME:[/color] I appreciate your kind words and thoughtfulness on wanting to take care of our issues. However, I think you're doing the same thing to my (topic) question as you did to the honesty question during your polygraph test. You seem to have an expert way of changing the meaning of a question so that your answer turns out to be true. If you're going to beat around the bush on something as trivial as this, then I can surely assume I will never get the truth out of you for serious things.

[color:"red"]HIM:[/color] OK I will stop beating around the bush on your questions and give direct answers. Can we still talk on the serious things?

[color:"blue"]ME:[/color] Why would I want to talk with you about serious things? You still haven't answered my question. That means you're still beating around the bush. It makes me wonder why. How many times do you think I should ask you the same question? Is this what you consider answering directly?

[color:"red"]HIM:[/color] I'm sorry I did that, I have no reason to beat around the bush on (this) question or any other. I don't want you to have to ask a question more than once. I have been (gives incorrect answer). Please give me another chance to answer all your questions the first time, complete, no beating around the bush.

[color:"blue"]ME:[/color] Okay, I will give you another chance to answer my question completely and without beating around the bush: Are you saying that (ask question again)?

[color:"red"]HIM:[/color] I really don't know... No I can't say for sure. Please don't feel this is beating around the bush, I just don't know.

Story continues…

Then days later, we were driving home together and he looks at me and begins to share his heartfelt feelings. With utmost sincerity, he said that he had this "awful feeling" that I (his trusted wife) was "forcing him to lie" by not accepting the answer he gave me.

It was dark outside, and my eyes widened as I watched the lines of the road pass by while thinking, "He's got to be kidding"!

It was his best gaslighting attempt that I can recall and he kept at it even until after we got home and sat in the driveway for a long time.

Had I not already known the truth, he could have buried me alive with guilt.

Then I sprung it on him that I already knew the answer and proceeded to tell him. You should have seen the look on his face and how well he instantly attempted to save face.

The next day, I (secretly) recorded him as he admitted (but only because I had caught him) to the blatant lie and the emotional abuse against me to protect it.

After that, I told him that he scared me that night because I didn't know to what extent he would go to hurt me to protect his lie. That, for the first time in our marriage, I felt he was a dangerous person to be with.

Is this what our marriage has been for all these years? What if I didn't have all 3 forms of evidence (gps, recorder, and keylogger) necessary to back up the truth? I would not have ever known that his charming words were just part of a cold-blooded, unnecessary, deliberate lie to me.

Conclusion...

After that, I was cured of all romantic love for him. The rollercoaster is gone.

So I guess you could say that I've gone "nuclear", like Mulan had suggested in her last post on my original thread. She was absolutely right on!

Or maybe I could be considered "consistent" like LousyGolfer and Owl wanted me to be, before I went off the deep end and my thread got locked. Sorry about that Lousy. I don't even treat my own husband that way.

And well, MEDC, I wish those Polygraph Tests were accurate with smooth-talking liars! The Examiner told my husband that he should be "content" with what he has. Do you know that my husband LAUGHED the other day when we discussed how the polygraph test was inaccurate - in his favor?

Fast-forward...

That's what brought us to the newfound information of his sexual gratification issues.

Whew!

He's too much work, eh?

I just received an email from my husband.

He offered to give me a (requested) "list of women" that he used for sexual gratification. He doesn't want to email it, but instead say it to me in person.

Here's what I sent to him in reply:

[color:"blue"]
I would appreciate this list. But I don't want it unless it will be COMPLETE and TRUTHFUL since the day we made our marriage vows.

If you have problems remembering some things, please give me place, location, building, name, hair color, body shape, clothes, shoes - anything for me to identify and understand what's happened to my married life.

I also want to know (and you may not believe this, but Dr. Harley will support me) what kind of sex you had with these people in your mind, with your body and/or with them in person, in the room or whatever I need to know to understand.

Do you need more time for this? What time is good for you?
[/color]

Is there anything else I should ask for? Is there anything I am missing?

Can't sleep.

Slick Willy confessed to using 4 different women for sexual gratification in the last 15 years.

Two were employees (secretary, clerk), one was a waitress at a restuarant, and the other I can't even remember who she was (but I have it recorded).

He claims that none were in the same room with him whenever it happened.

Because of a persistent question I asked, he also confessed to luring (flirting and getting response) a 5th woman, who was different than the one I was hoping he would tell me about (but didn't).

Two of the 5 women (vendor, employee) responded to him emotionally, with periodical or daily encounters.

He still has contact with at least one (vendor). Stopping contact with a vendor will be like cutting a jugular vein. His job is his image, status and life.

What happened to the other (I thought he said a few altogether) secretaries that he was talking about last Saturday?

I'm not feeling very well...don't know when I can get back to this board.

Slick Willy??

Sounds more like Jimmy Carter to me...remember his statement about lusting after women in his heart? (I think that was the quote.)

Lake53,

Thanks for your input.


Either way, he has endangered our marriage for years and wants me to play detective to protect it.

To be blunt...

How would he like it if I started an EA and said his words back to him, "(he) was very friendly, (he) liked me"? Well, I say to him, too d--- bad if she liked you or not.

Be assured, I don't even have the full story yet. He lied (confirmed at Recovery Nation) before he admitted one EA and his "confession" confirmed that he lied on MORE polygraph test questions as well.

I have to ask myself, is he even worth it? I'm probably just wasting my time.

Shhh..hh..h...

I'm trying to get a post in while my husband is not on his computer. He's been poking around on this forum, looking for my thread!

He didn't find it. If he does, there goes all my snooping, which won me valuable information about his lying techniques.

I really haven't been snooping much lately though. I'm losing incentive.

My vehicle tracker blew out (battery). I caught another lie with the keylogger regarding our recovery. Haven't felt like adding batteries to the voice recorder.

I contacted the Polygraph Examiner and asked for a copy of my husband's answers to my test questions because I wanted to check off the things that have been confirmed as lies.

I discovered that my husband was playing "word games" with the test process.

For example, he didn't "plan to", he just "did".

Things like that.

But still, there were 100% lies as well.

Here is what the Examiner said about my husband's polygraph test taking:

[color:"blue"]"Certain people are very good at rationalization, which is why we strive to use question construction that is very specific to the issue of concern, and precludes rationalization.

Even though my questions were very specific as to whether or not he lied in his statement, he apparently attempted to rationalize that what he had written, did not constitute lying.

I would say that he wasn't very successful in the sense that he was still capable of responding significantly.

The character questions he was also asked pertained to whether or not he was the type of person who usually lie to people that love and trust him, etc, and he was also responding to those, hence the relevant questions responses did not stand out as they would be expected to.

It seems that what has been coming out of late demonstrates why he would have been responding to those questions as well.

This isn't a case where the examinee is worried about going to prison for 10 years or some great consequence. The fear of exposure, discovery and consequence isn't at play psychologically as it ideally should be since you two had already been wrestling with the issues and concerns at hand.

In other words, the greater the risk of discovery, exposure and consequence, the more powerful the motivation to avoid these, and the more powerful the emotional, and then physiological response.

Some polygraph tests are predictably difficult because the circumstances of the case aren't likely to produce adequate fear of these elements in the mind of the examinee. Perhaps this is at play in this case.

This is also why we won't test subjects who are really depressed as they are not emotionally aroused as they should be."[/color]

Hmm...sounds like I've been too much of a nice gal (low risk) about this whole thing.

That's probably going to be changing though.

I think I got over a major hurdle on Christmas:

It was our first Christmas in 24 years that we were not together romantically (SF).

We had a very nice Christmas, and at one point, I found myself (my own initiative) sitting on his lap (effects of wine).

He never put his arm around me (although it was stretched out along the back of the couch) the second time I placed myself snug against his body.

I was also wearing a favorite outfit from my new wardrobe (size smaller), making me feel very feminine and something he actually choked out a compliment for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I couldn't bear the coldness from him while sitting there. I courteously got up and went to bed.

It was the first time in my life that I slept naked - and alone.

It happened again, nights later, after we had gone out for dinner and shared some feelings.

He said he would take me dancing (my candid suggestion) - only if he could have Sexual Fulfillment (SF) afterwards.

What? Oh yah, he doesn't get it.

That is, sex is the fruit of true intimacy (honesty is a good start) in marriage.

After a couple days of being tested on romantic love feelings, I succeeded (maintained acquaintance status).

With that experience, I feel like I have gone through my MOURNING process. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Now it's just what I'm going to do with my life from here on out.

Get back on track like I was before this all happened, I guess.

It's been over 3 months since we've had SF. In another 3 months, I can ask him: Where you getting it?

Looks like the coast is clear...

My husband doesn't appear to be looking for my thread anymore.

But last night, he was hurling fire. I've never seen him so mad...

Granted, we both had wine before our conversation started.

He wanted to tell me about his session with Steve Harley last Thursday. I knew all about it because I recorded his side of the conversation.

He was not upfront with Steve on where we're at. I'm not sure why he wanted a session with Steve if he was going to blow smoke like he did. Maybe because our relationship is at "rock bottom" like he told Steve.

Getting back to last night, I remained calm until he blew his lid and started cussing and yelling. It was as though I had just exposed him or something.

All I did was introduce "negotiations" for what we're going to do with an invalid marriage.

I told him that I was just going through the thought process and that I hadn't made any decisions yet.

And that it would be best to validate our marriage, but only he could do that, and he has given me no reason to trust that he would.

So I came up with an annulment idea that would keep everything for our family the same as it is now, except for a couple documents:

That is, he wouldn't lose any of his possessions and would have the chance to remarry me provided he overcame his sexual addiction in the future, the kids would have both parents at home (sleeping in separate buildings) at least until they are all grown up, and I would have justice and peace of mind instead of having to live as though nothing is wrong.

He accused me of many hurtful things that were clearly untrue:

-that I had planned things behind his back with an attorney and so he doesn't stand a chance (but I have not communicated with any attorney at all and have no set plans)

-that I was reaching my fitness goal and taking special care of myself, hair, nails and clothes in preparation for another man (there is no other man and never has been)

-that I was going to drag his name through the mud because everyone will find out how bad he is and how good I am (but I have thought long and hard on the best way to handle our situation without hurting people)

-that I intend to remarry and that he would never remarry, so people would see that I was the real wayward spouse in our marriage (but I have been the faithful spouse, not him)

-and that I was using his honesty against him (but I had already claimed marriage invalidity before his most recent and revealing confession)

I realized I could not defend myself with words and that it was getting out of hand, so I politely got up and left the room.

I kindly told the kids, who were now at the dinner table together, that I was going for a ride. Our youngest child jokingly commented on "quite the meeting" we were having in the bedroom.

As I was closing the vehicle door to leave, I saw that my husband had followed me out of the house and insisted he was coming with me.

So once the vehicle door was closed and before he reached the passenger side, I pressed the button that locked all the doors (first time ever). He couldn't get in (and apparently didn't have his keys). Then I left by myself (and came back home around midnight when everyone was in bed).

He texted me once with a mad apology and then called me 16 times throughout the evening, but I did not answer.

I wanted time-out and I was paying close attention to driving safely since I normally don't drive after having wine.

Speaking of wine, the music was great! I mean really great!

Today, I'm still trying to sort out what happened. I still have the whole thing on recorder if I need any information.

Hi Observing,

Well, I'm gonna take a leap here and from what I read it appears there's a lack of trust both ways. Do you see it? I am sure you feel it.

I would focus recovery based on trust 1st. That takes times, requires lots of patience and gives you both something to work on. It also makes each person look out for the need of the other.

He needs to make sure you feel safe in your R with him and you need to make sure he feels safe in his R with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for his angry outbursts.....again that w/b a safety point that needs t/b dealt with. I find the word safe easier to palate than 'love'. That word need to be brought back into the R waaay later down the line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

L.

Orchid,

Thanks for your insight. I always appreciate the courtesy and wisdom in your posts.

I think what you're seeing is his desperate need to keep me. And I saw that too.

What he may not realize is that his Sexual Addiction prevents him from being intimate with ANY human being, not just me.

Because to uphold his fantasy lifestyle, he must separate himself from reality constantly.

That's how I came to the realization of marriage invalidity and went to him out of openness and honesty.

He's known for over 24 years that he could trust me 100%, and that's why he married me, because he knew I would not betray him, like he knew he would betray others.

His accusations were emotional, yes, but not to be innocently confused with the expertise of a Sex Addict's manipulation (of a wife), whether conscious or not.

By reading the testimonials at RecoveryNation, one can see that the last thing a Sex Addict wants is for everyone to know who they really are.

He knows I have no intentions of broadcasting who he is, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't naturally reap what he has sown anyway.

So to move forward in our marriage from here, I would need to be able to trust him.

What signs would I look for to know that I could trust him?

That's the beauty of recovery. The BS s/b doing less work. You shouldn't have to look for anything. The effort is on the Xws' side.

I got more when I did less. R U the giver in your R? See if you can get ahold of Dr. Harley's book: Giver/Taker. Very interesting. Sometimes the giver sabotages their own R because they push the giving part sooo much.

So you shouldn't have to look you s/b able to feel it.... hint..... you s/b pampered more than treated as a slave.

Willing t/d less laundry? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

Yeah, I'm a Giver. He's a Taker. I haven't read the book yet, but the plain definitions describe us perfectly.

However, I've been easing up on the giving for about 3.5 months now because I'm concerned about being used.

There's great relief in knowing that I don't have to look for anything (trust). It should just show up, huh?

Yawn... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh, yeah...I finally listened to the voice message he left the other night while I was driving around. He had apologized for saying "things that were untrue" and apparently was following me on the highway, wanting to meet somewhere.

We're back into our routine again, but I do feel uncomfortable about the direction of our next conversation (when we have to deal with what happened the other night).

I appreciate your input, it has given me a sense of calm.