One other thought, assuming I manage to end contact with New OM, does this throw a wrench in NC with OM?
(I know, over analysis is one of my worst qualities...) I know NO inappropriate contact with either would be best, but is email with someone far away better at this point than contact with OM a few towns away?..

About 180's, can you please elaborate, maybe some suggestions? I'm not exactly sure what 180 means in this context.
I'd sure like to show a little more power here...

T2H,

my interpretation of the 180s is that instead of overthinking and asking why why why all the time... snoop like a watchdog, apologize when caught, snoop more and then go out and have some fun... go golfing with your brew crew or something

let her see that you aren't just going to mope around until she sees the light... go live a bit and she will be reminded of why she married ya

Yes, yes, yes, C3! That's what to do.

I want to say one thing here that I sort of just realized (remember I am new to this correct thinking, and have been in the fog for 18 months or longer). Just knowing that my husband was watching me, monitoring me (and he didn't even do it that much, but just the possibilty...) was enough to keep me from making many mistakes in NC. My hubby is hatching all kinds of plans, and even bought a killer domain name. He wants to take the money he makes from advertisers and write his own code for spyware so that he can give it away free, as a thanks to all of the people here who have helped us.

As for the "gifts and small gestures" I do agree with Mr. and Mrs W. My H says he doesn't resent doing them- even now, and that it was a tool for him to remind himself how much he loved me and to keep himself focused on THAT rather than get angry all the time. See, I am still learning, too. My H is extremely obsessive and went through so much of what you are experiencing. If she is even having slight breakthroughs where she thinks it will work, it can happen, believe me.

I just immediately went into "protect the BS" mode once I finally "got it" and hate to now see others driving themselves crazy over a WS who is foggy, ya know? I guess my main point on that particular subject would be- DO the small gestures, etc until/unless it gets to making you feel bad (i.e.-"why am I doing this when he/she doesn't even appreciate it" or "why am I the only one working at this when she should be the one pampering me" etc.). Then back off and take care of YOU.

Remember it's not your fault, she is absolutely still in the fog, and you cannot listen to that kind of reason b/c you know better. Just tune it out, and stay focused on being there, being cool, and taking care of yourself.

One more thing I want you to remember, b/c you are a victim of fogspeak...DO NOT LISTEN TO IT. You have every right to watch her, to make sure your needs are being met (at least a little), to bring up your children as Mr. W said, etc. YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT!!!!

Oh I don't know, being betrayed makes most folks seem "obsessive"...I sure as heck would have been...

Something good that came out of Mr. W's "snooping" was that he was able to see firsthand just how fake everything was...he saw the lies that were told just to get the ego strokes...That helped recovery in our situation...

Mrs. W

Thanks all.
Again though, Can someone give me some examples of "180's"?
I'm not sure I understand what is meant by that. If it's going off doing something without her knowing, doesn't that justify her being secretive? I could use some help with this.
Also, I could use some guidance on HOW to approach OM2 on the subject of no longer contacting/ replying to WW's Myspace emails. Not sure if I should reveal or justify reasons why this is not cool. Ideally I'll convince him to just stop replying and leave WW to wonder. Worst case I guess, is OM2 shares all I say to him with WW, their communication continues, and WW & I are back to square 1 again...
I know I sound like a big weinie, but I really want to proceed with whatever gives the best chance for reconciliation. I regret many things I've tried in the last few months that, in hindsight have set our chances at recovery back. Not sure how many more times I can bungle these attempts before I start contributing to the demise of our chances...

Also, what Mr. W says about playing it cool, not talking it to death; going back to doing things you did while you were dating that made her fall in love with you enough to marry you; and executing Plan A without letting her get away with destructive behavior.

Specifically, you can take charge by nixing all of her sources of "replacing the A drug" by cutting off her access to Myspace; cancel her email accounts that aren't work related; figure out a way to get into her work email like my H did; confiscate her cell phone; confront any and ALL OMs (and KNOW that you have the right to do this as her husband-you really need to OWN this fact).

Much of what I am hearing is NOT you being a "wienie" but is a true and honest effort to thrwart her bad behavior without crossing her. BUT SHE NEEDS TO BE CROSSED!!! She has crossed you and now needs whatever it will take (time, understanding, quiet listening, intervention, etc) to snap her out of it. As I said, my hubby sounds much like you, and it wan't until he got really tough with me (after months of Plan A) that I "got it." I am not suggesting you threaten her, I cannot advise anyone here b/c only you know when it is the right time- only you can make that decision. But it's a thought..

Specifically on the 180...keep up the Plan A effort, but when she gets into bad behavior mode, cut her off and walk away. Do something for yourself that you enjoy, and do it without her. I understand your fears- that she will just use that very opportunity to cross boundaries and continue seeking her drug fix. Maybe she will, but maybe she won't. Maybe she'll begin to understand that what she is doing is wrong. Leave some stats laying around about children raised by a single mother...particularly ones about how very difficult it is on the mother.

If all else fails, start exposing her. To her family and friends who may not know, to her OM, whatever. Maybe in the face of all that anger directed at her, she will "get it." Just remember, once again...YOU ARE ENTITLED. Do not get caught up in what YOU are doing right or wrong, or what you have the right to do in this situation. Honestly, she HAS no rights at this point, until she earns them. HEAR ME ON THIS as a FWW and recently converted doofus.

HEAR ME!!! Quit worrying about her "rights" and her reaction to you busting up her attempts to continue bad behavior...she deserves it!!!!!!!!!!

the 180s is a word that somebody just made up btw... don't get stuck on it... there are no specific examples

IMO it's a phrase that means go out and do whatever it is you think is fun... either by yourself or with friends. it's not a secretive thing either in fact you may want her to know that you'll be golfing with your friend Joe and may come back drunk... it's time away from the marriage... just like hers but your time is healthy

the whole point is moping around the house wishing this never happened is destructive... you can't wish it away... you can't control how she feels... you can only control how you feel and the only thing you can do to keep that sanity is "180s" sotospeak

tell her u love her, tell her u always will... tell her there is no "try" not flirting... or "try" no contact... tell her you love her... ure eyes are on her... that you're vigiliant... and then go have some fun so you keep those batteries charged

it's one or the other... you do that for six months or so and if she is still doing stuff behind ure back you re-address matters then

Below is the 180 degree Plan list from Ms. Davis's divorce busting website/book. It is NOT MB and you will see several distinctions.

As far as some of the advice above...do 180...go out with the brew crew, etc. It's fine in limited quantities I just don't think it would have been effective for me and likely you.

My wife was annoyed that I was home all the time. She'd have been thrilled for me to 180 her because then she could have continued in fantasy land unabated. She'd have just spent MORE time on-line, text messaging, and talking on the phone with OM. I interferred by just being home. Although at the time she thought I was up her butt constantly I did make efforts to just be there but NOT in her face all the time.

Rent a movie and invite her to watch it with you. If she says no...don't get needy and beg. Accept it and WATCH THE MOVIE YOURSELF. Get a book and sit and read. Be available IF and WHEN she wants to talk (meeting need for communication) but don't force communication by constantly pressing for it.

Make plans in advance. Tell her Friday night that you are taking her and your son out to dinner. Foggy waywards don't think past the moment and the next fix of OM. They will commit on Tuesday for a friday night outing. Sure when Friday comes they will want to back out but TRY to hold them to it...(I've already got tickets or reservations, etc.). IF she backs out...take the kid and go anyway. Hopefully, she'll submit and just go. Plan A time.

If one of the conditions which preempted this adulterous behavior in your marriage was you weren't home much, worked to hard, didn't talk to her, etc. I can't see the 180 plan being a good idea to turn her mind back to the marriage. It only reinforces your seeming lack of care and FEEDS her justications and rationalizations.

Just my opinion. It's not all a waste to know...some of my do's and don't of Plan A were adapted from this source amoung others to the extent they complimented MB's Plan A.


Mr Wondering



[color:"blue"] For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.[/color]

guess i was wrong about 180 being a made up phrase

then again by looking at my post count and registration date...

lol

Mr.W, if you're still on, can you give me a little guidance as far as contacting the OM2? How much to say, how to say it etc?
I asked this a little bit ago, but the posts took a 180 direction, which is also very helpful. Thanks, all.
Poor comunuication / "not being there" for her was a big reason WW thinks she looked elsewhere. Though she admits she never communicated to me that anything was wrong until it was critical mass...
At any rate, I'd really like to know how you all think I should tell OM2 (email guy) to back off. He sure didn't start this, WW did. (Very painful...)

I didn't mean to just address that last post to Mr. W.
Please, anyone else with some insight, please feel free to respond.
Thanks

TTH,
You are getting some wonderful advise here from some of the most respected posters here.(You all know who you are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Your wife's flirting with OM is a recipe for disastor in your M. My W did this after 30 years of M with her the, boss and OM.

She thought it to be harmless, but it was obviosly forfulling to one of her top EN. I never saw it. DUH!

Your supposition of contacting OM will be totally fruitless. He's "not a nice guy." He would not be trying to seduce a M'd woman if that were so. Can we start with that understanding?

Your battle front is with your WW, not OM, pos predater who ties to woo her. They are all the same, and could care less about you.

The sad part is that your WW feels a need to interact with them.

Thus the problem here lies with your WW, not OM, as they exist a dime a dozen out there.

Start with raddical honesty and POJA. If you can win your WW over to this point of view, you stand a very good chance of R.

I have more to say, but this will take time and patience.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Dr. Harley does sometimes recommend that you contact the OP and let them know just what is going on...Waywards LIE...Big Surprise...OM2 may certainly have been told by your wife that she is single, separated or divorced...You state the FACTS Try, tell OM2 that you are married, are in this for the long haul and will fight til death for your marriage and family...That it would be in his best interests to bark up some other tree...You do this with no expectations...It might work, it might not...It's worth a shot...

Mrs. W

Good thoughts. He knows she's married.
Again, she's really tho one who's initiating this with him.
Do I tell him what she's been doing?
I want to be guarded with what I say to him, assume it will get back to her...
Help

I would just say "Go away or you will pay. If I find any more communications from you, even if she initiates it, I will cut off her Myspace access anyways." Who cares if she finds out what you said or how you said it? She's going to be mad either way and feel that you've invaded her privacy...tough! Most OM are cowards, anyways, and he will probably run without protest with his tail between his legs.

Try,

Let's not forget that what you are doing is NOBLE...Who cares if it gets back to her...Actually that would be GREAT-It tells her you are fighting for her, that she matters to you, that you cherish her...BE HER HERO...You are the guy in the WHITE hat, remember? Now Cowboy up and Git 'er done!

Mrs. W

I wouldn't bother threatening OM-no need to try and make him puff out his chest for spite...Just let him know your intentions and that you are not going away...

Should he not back down then you work on EXPOSURE...You don't threaten exposure, you just do it...Forewarned is forearmed...

Mrs. W

I would be careful about doing things like taking away your wife's cell phone or computer...While I understand very much your right to do those things, you are trying to reconcile with her...Putting her in a cage is not a great way to come to reconcilliation...Dr. Harley talks about NEGOTIATING the end of an affair...and it's a fine line, because bargaining with a wayward is not always a productive thing...I just remember Mr. W being very gentle regarding that stuff...For instance, I had the dreaded "affairullar phone"...Mr. W said to me, "How about we get you a new laptop and take back this phone"...I agreed to that and didn't feel threatened by it...It's a delicate balance...

Mrs. W

I don't see any need, nor would I threaten OM2.
He's 3400 miles away, and is only responding to my wife's continued correspondence.
What would I threaten anyway?
It's not like he's a good friend of hers. I don't think she'd seen him in 10 years or so before running in to him last month. They were never "good" friends anyway, just acquaintances from teen years. Again, she never even mentioned him to me.
Clearly this is just a new obsession for her to, IMO replace some of that "he makes me feel good" she's missing from D-bag (somehow OM doesn't seem strong enough...).

How's this, for a slight shift in focus?
I do send him a message and ask him to go away, close his Myspace, whatever. She's the only reason he has one anyway... (at her request)...

What is my prepared response to WW's negative reaction to me? I'd like to have something ready...

Your mantra: I love you and am fighting to save our marriage...I will do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal...

You remain calm...You can say things like, "uh huh", "I see", "I understand", "I'm sorry you feel that way"...Even "I cherish you", "You are important to me"...

If she yells, you whisper...

Just stay on message...Do not let her shift your focus...ACT, Don't REACT...

Mrs. W