I'm going to try to keep our story short, but it is really complicated...

I am the WW. We've been married for 2.5 years, and the A started just after our 1 year anniversary. We have no kids. My H was out of town a lot for the first year of our marriage (and for the year prior to it) and there were weeks where I didn't hear from him at all... he wouldn't bother to call or anything, and when he did come home, he never made any special effort to be there for me or anything, and pretty much really acted like he just wanted to hang out with his buddies. I felt neglected and alone. I met AP at work... and really, he's a pretty awful match for me in terms of personality, and we no longer talk, but he made me the center of his universe, and I drank it in, and before I knew it, I was involved in a full blown PA. H admitted when I told him about my A of TWO EA's that he had be involved in while he was out of town for that 1.5 years. I hadn't had ANY prior to this.

I moved out of our house in October of last year (a little over a year ago), although continued to see both AP and H. I pretty much rode the fence. I was an idiot. H fought for me back... although in November of last year, he put his profile on yahoo personals (we WERE NOT separated), and met a girl across the country that he then flew to visit, met her family, took her out on dates, talked to her EVERY SINGLE DAY, SEVERAL TIMES A DAY (this is what hurt the most, since he always acted like I was being unreasonable for asking for a phone call a day while he was out of town), sent her $70 flowers with a sappy note about her being his little "desert rose" (never did stuff like that for me...). I was CRUSHED when I found out last December. It hurt so bad...

Because of that A (his THIRD EA... nothing physical happend, but I think that was more because they were across the country from each other. He had told her he was divorced and moving to her area and had started applying for jobs there) I didn't move back home right away... but stayed in my apartment.

This past June, I moved back home, although still had casual contact with AP. (stupid, stupid). Well, this past September, it was like my H just lost it and GAVE UP completely on the marriage. He now does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for it, and says he's not sure if he wants to stay married. This has been going on since September. I have since went COMPLETELY NC... and am trying SO HARD. H is on antidepressants now (although he just started them, so haven't seen any differences yet). If I try to talk to him about his feelings, he gets very angry and shuts down, and REFUSES to acknowledge ANY of the damage he's done with this his THREE EA's... the last one being the worst. He had little pet names for her and everything. It disgusts me. He did everything for her that I always wanted him to do for me... that is why it hurt so bad. I felt like he never appreciated everything I did for him while he was out of town.

I guess now I am trying so hard, and he is riding the fence. Sometimes he acts 'normal', although he just claims that it is him 'faking it' and he doesn't really know if he still feels the same way about me. This has been going on since September. I am willing to do whatever it takes. I know my A was selfish on my part... and I know it crushed him. His crushed me too. I was in total shock when he told me about the first two.... and then the third one, well he lied to me the whole way thru that one, I finally got the truth from the OW because he was lying to her too, so she was angry with him too when she found out and we compared stories.

I dont know what to do... I have NC with AP anyore... and I know I did a lot of damage, but I feel like we are just STUCK right now, we aren't even really moving forwards, but we are slowly slipping backwards. I just want to give this M the chance we should have in the first place. We've both made mistakes.... I just don't know how much longer I can take his refusal to do ANYTHING for this marriage. He's completely detached and unaffectionate, and when I try, he just pushes me away and gets angry. I can't talk about how hurt I am at all, he just gets mad at me.

We tried counseling, but it was a total disaster. He looked at the counselor straight in the face and said over and over again he wasn't going to do ANYTHIGN for this marriage right now, until he made up his mind if he wanted it or not. This has been going on since September, and really quite frankly only getting worse, not better. I dont know what to do... I have been doing plan A... I have been trying so hard... I admit I screwed up at plan A a bit at first, but still made a pretty damn good run at it, I'd say... but I've been going strong at plan A now for at least a month, with NOTHING to show for it. How long do you keep doing this?? Torturing yourself?!?!? He made mistakes too, but he makes ALL OF THIS my fault. I know he tried before, when I first told him about my A, but I also caught him lying ot me about things, and he made promises he never kept, and he also had an A!!! How was I supposed to trust him?!!?

I dont know what to do... I'm sorry this has turned into a rambling... I am just so hurt and upset and frustrated. I'm afraid of plan B though, and I still have fight left in me... I'm still going to fight. At least until the New year. I have to keep fighitng...

I just don't know what else to do. He REFUSES to talk about ANY of his feelings, he just shuts down, or gets angry and starts screaming and calling me names. We just make small talk all the time because we can't talk about anything of significance without him losing his cool.

I finally convinced him to go and see a doctor about getting an antidepressant this week-- which he was prescribed, so I was a little optimistic about that. Hopefully that helps. But he's still going on and on with his misery... he NEVER says anything positive about us, just tears down our marriage over and over again and says how we should have never gotten married... it hurts so much.

Please Help. I dont know what to do anymore, this hurts so much. I feel like I have to help him with his hurt over my A, which is fair, and deal wth my hurt from his A's all alone, with no help. And if I try to share my feelings he just gets mad and says I created the situation and I deserve to feel like this (literally).

Help,
RIM

but has major issues with drinking and with anger control. He EXPLODES at the drop of a hat,

marrage builders principles are not recommended for abuse, addiction, and anger issues....

no children...
you should both having affairs...you should get out now...

I know that sounds harsh...

look at your issues you're all caught up in the fact that your husband treated the OW with daily phone calls and attention...yet you had the same thing with YOUR OM....

you want your husband to own up to his damage of an EA when it is you that had a full blown PA...

also have what two months of true no contact with the OP..

not such a long time...

regret the only way YOU are going to be able to work on this is if you focus 10000000000000000000000000000000000% on your issues...and let go of any expectations from him..

often it is through changes that we make in ourselves...that illicit changes in others....

you can't expect, demand or even desire remorse from him when he isn't capable of being remorseful right now..it's easier to blame .....

what's the real lowdown on the drinking...what is exact issue with it that is a problem....

what is his rage like...

is he physically aggressive....

I know this doesn't sound all rosey and peachy...
but there are times when it is bette to cut your losses earlier than later....

I am sorry for that...

ARK

RIM,

Welcome to MB....what a mess huh? Whenever there is "dueling" affairs....the damage done to the marriage is so extensive that recovery is harder and takes longer. A month is really a short time.....so hunker for the long haul if you're really committed to this. I think six months is a more reasonable timeline....and if you can't do that....then you might have to make some hard decisions about what your other options are.

What compensation have you provided as a result of your own affair. You can't force him to do anything. You can't change him.....but you can change you. You say you are trying....what are you trying? Can you describe your Plan A a little?

Sorry, but I completely agree with ARK, short marriage no kids, double infidelity. You both need to move on and get it right the next time.

Who

OK, so, no offense, but posts of 'end it and get it right next time' aren't really going to help, so anyone that has that advice can just keep it to themselves, because that's not what I thought this site was about-- nor is that what I want right now.


Secondly, maybe I should be more specific when I said "full blown PA". So, at the risk of this being TMI... In July of last year (2006), AP and I kissed once, and then later that week when we met to "talk" about the kiss earlier in that week (I had avoided him all the rest of the week), things got a little out of hand, and before we actually had sex, I stopped him. Not that that makes what I did right. I told my H after that. I told him the truth. That was all that happened between us physically, although H does not believe me. I did continue the EA for awhile after that (we had the same circle of friends at work). I have since went NC.

For the person that asked about my plan A... I have been doing EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN to avoid arguing with him, I've been trying really hard to meet his EN... I had him fill out the emotional needs questionaire... We still have sex on a regular basis, I have been doing the vast majority of the house work, I changed my cell phone number for him, I have ignored quite a bit of "bad behavior" from him. He tells me over and over again he has nothing to give to this relationship anymore (although he still does things with me, still cuddles iwth me, still has sex with me...)... and sometimes things are OK and like normal, and sometimes he does some backsliding. And this plan A stuff.... I started it seriously with some help about a month ago... and before that I was doing my own version of it since September. Yes, he gave up on me and us in SEPTEMBER, and I'm still trying. So don't tell me to just give up and quit and get it right next time like I'm some sort of failure-- like this is a lost cause. I really resent that. I'll decide when it's time to give up, thank you. And I would think that many people on this site would APPRECIATE someone who is fighting as hard as I am currently, and would offer support to me, not break me down. How many people around here wish their spouse was fighting this hard, yet you tell me to give up?? Giving up is never the answer.

And yes, he has anger issues, some of which existed before this issue, but have gotten worse because of this. He is a classic stonewaller, and if you try to get through to him, he explodes. Has been this way for a long time, but has gotten much worse with his apathy towards this relationship.

I came here for HELP... not for people to tell me to give up. I am quite frankly a little appalled at how quickly people are to tell me to give up. Not helpful, at all. I may have made mistakes, and it might be too late, but that doesn't mean I don't want to try. And that doesn't mean I'm not going to. And that doesn't mean that I am not going to ask for advice on the best way to get through to him. And for some Plan A support. Because I'm not ready to give up. So if that is all you have for me, keep it to yourself. Thanks.

RIM

And yes, he has anger issues, some of which existed before this issue, but have gotten worse because of this. He is a classic stonewaller, and if you try to get through to him, he explodes

anger issues are serious issues that can't be addressed by proxy in a annoymous board...

you need to learn how to deal with those issues so that you aren't enabling them....
and
most importantly so you aren't excusing them and not holding him accountable for them...otherwise it will be years and years of verbal aggression from him..
so YOU do that...

also lets hear about the drinking issues...

also if you are in plan A and really understand plan a you wouldn't be giving one ounce of thought to whether he owns up to his emotional affairs....

it's not that people are telling you to give up..persay..but that marriage builder principles don't WORK with abuse and alcohol issues....

see it is very uncomfortaable for people to advise others that might be in dangerous situations....


ARK

"also if you are in plan A and really understand plan a you wouldn't be giving one ounce of thought to whether he owns up to his emotional affairs...."

I am not, to him. Eventually, they need to be discussed. Not now, I am well aware of this. That doesn't mean they don't hurt NOW. That just means I am suppressing that for the better good of the relationship right now. I have done my fair share of plan A reading-- I know what this si about. But I also know that Plan A isn't permanent, and I know that his A's WILL HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH eventually. Yes, eventually. Plan A does NOT mean he is off the hook for them. I'm not saying he's going to be 'punished' for them, but I am saying that eventually they will have to be dealt with.

And yes, I do need to deal better with the anger issues. That is something I am coming to terms with. And right now, he's not accountable for anything. Everything he does has an excuse. We've actually been doing GOOD recently concerning that. And in order for this to recover, these are thing HE needs to work on. But for now, I can change the way I react, and I can change how I deal with it.

As for the drinking... that has gotten better recently too. I would say previously about once a week or so he'd have too much, get really verbally abusive and say some pretty terrible things (and then never apologize and act like nothing happened or else just say that "I deserved it").

So any SUGGESTIONS on how to work on things???

RIM

go to Ala-non...to show in action your seriousness about caring about yourself and your self worth as well as his....

I am very serious about that...

ark

Regret,

Since I am one of those whose opinion you don't want, I will only make a simple statement regarding MB.

Even Dr. Harley recognizes that not all marriages can or should be saved. He particularly feels this way in the case of new marriages with no children.

Recovering from an affair is difficult enough if you have a long history together. From what you have posted, it appears that you and your WH have had an unfaithful marriage and difficult times from the beginning.

I do wish you luck, and I mean that.

Best,

Who

OK, everyone BREATHE....

Because RIM came here seeking our support in the recovery process, that's what we should give her. I am also the WW and so I hope I can help a little. I just came out of my fog less than a week ago, after speding a year and a half torturing my poor hubby with the A and then fogspeak. BUT, I can also relate to Ark and WhoMe b/c the whole reason we made it, is due to the history of 10.5 great yrs (b4 the A) and 2 wonderful children. If it were the beginning of a marriage w/no kids...WOW. All I can say is hang in there, where there is love, there is hope. If he is still cuddling and there are still moments of hope, then it CAN still happen.

A point that some may not have considerd, is that without all those years to draw on and no kids, it may actually make the healing process easier. There is none of the usual "how could you do this to me after all these years...how could you put our kids in danger of losing their family" etc. to throw around. He obviously made no attempt to fulfil the marriage b4 the As and eventually he will have to realize that as well. You cannot build a new marriage when you are not around, for whatever (even noble) reasons.

My question is, if you loved him enough to marry him, why didn't you go with him? Why was he gone for so long? If you have answered that question already, I'm sorry, but I didn't see it.

There are 2 sides to the story and having dealt with my own anger issues, I can say that it is torture on the angry person, as well (to be angry all the time). As long as it is not abusive (P or E), IC will help him with this and possibly any substance abuse.

In this case, I would say- you need outside help (other than just us), so continue to receive it on a IC and MC basis and hang in there. Be prepared for a tough few months and then see how you feel.

THANK YOU LaLa. Truthfully, I had resigned myself to be a lurker before I saw that someone was posting with supportive messages. I am not ready to give up.

And, I think there IS something to be said for your point of a short marriage and no kids. Truthfully, I think that the no kids thing can actually work IN YOUR FAVOR... we can truly focus on each other, and each other's needs without kids in the way and the kids' needs too-- which takes away your focus from recovery, whether you want it to or not. But then again, I can see how having kids gives you a greater incentive to want to fix things.

Also, having only a short marriage, and being young, it is "easier" I think for us to make the changes we should have just made in the first place.

OK, so in terms of why I didn't "go with him"-- he had a job which required that he travelled 95% of the time. I have a job where I am only in my home city, and very rarely travel-- maybe once or twice a year for a few days. I couldn't really go with him. Most of the time he'd come home on Friday evening late, exhausted, and then leave again Sunday after dinner. Most weeks he was home less than 48 hours before he left again. He has since gotten a new job... but unfortunately, he didn't get that new job until I entered my fog, and it was "too late" from that stand point. He still has that job, and has only had to travel 3 days in the past year and a half. Much better.

I have gone NC... true NC (tried and failed a few times in the past...like many WS)... I guess his "giving up on the marriage" was what was the brick upside my head to get out of the fog. I guess in a way, without realizing it, he sort of followed plan A, to an extent (well minus his EA in the middle of it)-- and once he hit plan B, it was like a brick to my head. but he didn't "plan B" with hope, he "plan B'ed" because I had just sucked all the life out of him in my fog. So, now the roles have reversed. I am plan A'ing. I've seen SOME improvement. But some days we take some major steps backwards. And he still informs me just about daily that he doesn't know if he wants this marriage and that he's miserable right now. I forgive him for his mistakes. I think if nothing else, ARK made me see that I had to forgive his mistakes and be willing to make them the past in order for my plan A to really work anyways. So, that is what we are doing.

And yes, he can be pretty mean when he gets angry... and he seems to get angry at the drop of a hat. And yes, I think he has some anger issues he's always had. But no one is perfect-- and these aren't anger issues that are horrid anger issues we can't work through. And But, I've seen improvement... and truthfully, what BS hasn't been spitting nails angry at the WS at some point or another??? I am not enabling him anymore, I do not entertain mental breakdowns of his (in terms of angry ones). He has a lot of built up resentment right now. I am trying to get him through that. While he was inadvertantly plan A'ing and I was fogging, he got VERY good at controlling his anger, actually. So I have hope. And the drinking... I think that that has been exaggerated-- I maybe should have left that out. Yes, he sometimes has a few too many drinks, but I've seen a concerted effort to not do that... I think he scares himself when he's like that...



Thanks again for the encouragement Lala. Enough to bring me out of lurking... for now.

RIM

I am so glad I could help. Great that you can be together more now! It will help you focus on each other. Concentrate on ignoring his fogspeak (b/c he is also in the fog with "not knowing if he wants to stay in the marriage") and working on protecting your marriage from this sort of thing in the future.

I do have a rather hard question, though...do you really believe he only had an EA? I cannot imagine with the effort he was putting into her that it didn't get physical. VERY hard for me to believe, and I wonder if some of his anger is misdirected, and his own guilt is getting the better of him as well. I don't know if he would ever be straight with you, but it is a thought...

Like I said b4, where there is love, there is hope, and it seems that there is a glimmer in him. Read as much as you can here and see how textbook some of his (and your) behavior is b/c there is comfort in knowing that you are not alone. It is a big step for you to come here and try to find the answers you need to be strong.

Good luck and God bless!

you downplayed what you did with OM but in reality you moved out of the home and continued to see OM... it's not hard to see how your husband doesn't believe you when you say there was no PA?

and there really is something to be said in reference to it being only two or three months of NC

not tryin to be mean

Lala-- Yes, I do believe that he never had a full blown PA with the girl that I know of... this is because she lived all the way across the country from us, and he only saw her one weekend and both him and her swore nothing other than a hug and a foot rub (grr..) happened. And she had no reason to lie to me-- when she finally talked to me, we found out he had been lying to her too-- told her he was divorced and moving out there and was going to be with her, etc. He admitted that if she lived closer he wasn't sure if things would have gotten physical or not. And truthfully, I think if had been given the opportunity that weekend he would have let things get physical.. but lets hear it for women that actually have respect for themselves. I honestly respect her, because she worked with me once she realized that he was playing us both. I don't have any anger towards her. She was lied to too. That being said... I am not entirely convinced that if something ever happened in the past while he was out of town so much that he would tell me at this point-- he claims nothing ever happened, but I truthfully think he'd lie about it at this point if anything ever did. But I really can't spend too much time really thinking about that... I'll never know unless he tells me... he was out of town, all across the country... there's no way I could ever figure it out....

And yes, of course I see how he doesn't believe me about the PA (or that it isnt' as bad as he thinks). Understandable. And I know that my amount of NC is "nothing" in the grand scheme of things... but you have to start somewhere, right??

I know there's a lot of BS on here... but please, please, I've come along way out of the fog, and reading the BS threads makes my heart hurt knowing full well I did those stereotypical things... that I was consumed by the fog and the idiotic things I did. I've really done a 180 in terms of attitude. And maybe it was 'too late'. But I'll never know, unless I try, right?? So, I'm showing him now that he can trust me, we can recover, that I've learned, and that I can be the wife he needs me to be. Plan A. And his indecisiveness KILLS my heart... the way he can just look at me and say he doesn't know if he feels the same way, etc. But, I've got fight left in me. He fought for us, now its my turn. I'm not giving up this easy... even if people here think I should. There's plenty of people that don't... myself included.

And quite frankly, I think the advice of "just give up now" are rather irresponsible without fully knowing someone and a situation.. and I don't think that ANYONE can achieve that by reading ONE post by someone. Advising someone to do something that drastic off of one post just seems silly... I think maybe if that is people's opinions, they should be more responsible and probably just NOT post ANYTHING to that thread, especially if the thread is asking about advice for recovery. I guess that is what got my feathers ruffled. I know I was the WS... I know it is an uphill battle. And I know the tables have turned on me because of my own stupidity. Plus, from reading on here, I'm sorry I've read some screwed up stuff I thought was worse than our situation....

RIM

I feel you so much! I admire your ability to see things clearly, and to understand what you need to focus on NOW. I only asked b/c there is a thread on here about a guy who went to MC with a WW not knowing she was at the time, and his wife blamed him for all the marital problems even though she was smack in the middle of the A. Oh the stupid things we do sometimes, huh!

But you are of the right mindset now, and that's all that counts. He is still in a fog it seems, though noone can know another's heart completely, or what's in their head. So do try to be patient with him as you feel he was with you. It will count for so much, no matter what happens in the long run.

And keep me posted! I wish you all the very best, and if I can help you in any way, I will.

Remember- where there's love, there's hope!

OK-- So now I've had a lot of time to think about a lot of things, and I really would like advice from people that have been around for awhile-- especially those that have any sort of experience with this type of thing. Now that I'm back home and out of the fog, my H is very, very resentful and wants to give up himself. Its like now that he finally got what he wanted so bad for so long, he doesn't want it anymore (me, home, working on this). I know he's conflicted... its like roles have reversed. I have DEVOURED everything I can on this site, I am resolute in Plan A'ing. I was referred here by someone I met on another board, who I've been communicating with. I read all the posts and the advice to the posts. Yes, I was the WS. But, now that the fog is gone... I realize the damage I've done. Its my turn to step up... I just don't know how to reach out to him without being desperate, I guess. I think that is where I was until recently... desperate. Begging. Pleading. I need to stop that, I realize that now.

I really want to save this. I really do. And I think we have a chance... My head is fully removed from my foggy A** now... I realize what I've done... I realize I have an uphill battle, and I realize I drained my poor H... We have underlying problems that need to be fixed in order to fix this marriage in totality, and we BOTH know that and have admitted it. I just have to convince H that it is worth fighting for, that I HAVE learned my lesson... and that I would never do this again to him EVER.

Please help. I'm not quitting... I respect ARK's and WHO's opinion... I do. But we've been together for 8 years now... 8 years! Married for 2.5 of those. Yes, a short time compared to others that have been married for 10 with kids... but still. And I've known him now (we were best friends for awhile) for 15 years. We have do have quite a history.

I am perfecting my Plan A. I thought I was in plan A since september, but truly its only been about a month. Have been NC though for awhile, and have cut off all abilities for OM to get in contact with me... (he was still contacting me for awhile despite my requests not to)... changed phone numbers, etc. Have been being "transparent". Please help.

H is detached and unemotional. He stopped using all the cute nick names we used to have for each other.. he stopped pretty much doing ANYTHING that really made us 'us'. I feel like we just float by each other most days... that we are nothing more than mere aquaintences once you take away all the cute little stupid things that used to make us "us". He's denied all of our traditions... saying they are ruined for him (yes ,EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!) I don't know what to do. Should I try to uphold them myself, or just let them go?? I don't know! I stopped using the nicknames because he says they were ruined for him (but won't tell me why... and I really don't understand that at all... I can't tell any reason why they should be, they are exclusively ours...). Its things like that I struggle with.

I knwo some people like the 2x4 method of things... but right now I need encouragement, not a 2x4... I already had my 2x4 and am feeling beaten down, and need encouragement...

RIM

RIM...just wanted to check in with you and see if things are OK?

RIM, Resonance. Sorry I can't tell you anything that may help your situation, but I draw hope from that fact that you can come out of the fog. Would you be so kind to look at my posts and comment on the thought pattern you went through while in the fog? I am struggling with my WW because she acts like everything will be OK and we will be buddies. (I'm really getting Plan A down to an art form). I would rally appreciate to hear your fog experiences.

Thanks.
Is WS actually in a fog.

Things have been going OK... I am still trying very, very hard with my H. Does anyone else have experience with something like this?? I guess that is what I am looking for: someone who was the WS, came out of their fog, wants to work on things, only to find their spouse has given up and no longer knows if he wants the marriage while you were too busy being in a fog??

In many ways, my H acts like a WS anymore... inconsiderate, unaffectionate, saying things that sound a lot like "fogspeak" (ie, I love you, I Just don't know if I'm "in love" with you, etc), , and "re-writing" marital history (EVERYTHING is doom and gloom when it comes to our marriage anymore, according to him there was NEVER anything good about it, ever).

We haven't fought now in quite some time... I avoid talking about our relationship at all costs and change the subject immediately if it is brought up. I am trying my hardest to meet his ENs, and have pretty much done the majority of the work both around the house and also relationship wise while he sits back and reaps the benefits (if nothing else, my patience has increased exponentially through all of this!). He invests just about NOTHING anymore, emotionally. On top of that, our sex life has pretty much gone down the tubes (was actually BETTER than it used to be for awhile back in September/October) but is now worse than it has ever been.

I have been "trying" since September, albeit not perfectly. I would say I implemented a solid plan A for about a month now. I am still going strong. Occasionally I can see signs he's cracking from his actions, but usually he retreats again pretty fast. No verbal signs he's cracking at all though. He pretty much keeps to himself anymore. I don't have any idea what is going on in that head of his, no matter how hard I try. And if I push too much to try to figure it out, he just gets angry or starts talking "fogspeak".

Sigh. I'm hanging in there. We haven't been fighting at all recently, and I've been trying super super hard to plan A.

I really wish I could get some veteran advice here... or advice from someone that's been through something like this. I know I am the WS, which probably makes people reluctant to give advice, but if you read my story, I'm also the BS... (although, not as much so as he was...). I really am trying to save things here, I really am! And I feel like the roles have been 100% reversed... And all the WS behaviors my H is now showing...

Help!
RIM

Hang in there RIM...I have to feel the kiddos lunch, but I will be back shortly!