Somebody? Anybody? Its awfully lonely out here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

RIM,

I promise you aren't alone. Please hang on and someone will be back to respond to you.

I am way too new to offer any advice. But I don't want you to feel alone.

(((((RIM)))))

Hey RIM,

I've only read your last post...

I would say it could be a few things, or a combination of...

Is he trying to make you suffer?
Walling up, or staying distant to protect from further pain?
Depression?

-JKT

hey RIM,

I think it's odd for the people here to suggest that marriages that are short or have no kids are somehow less valid. Some people can't have kids for medical/physical, heck even philisophical reasons. Are their marriage invalid? (Sorry, this hits a button for me as I have no children.)

Your post has given me a lot to think about. I dont hear a lot of talk/support here for FWWs doing plan As, but I think maybe it's what I need to do. H was really enthusiastic about me coming home, but I've been doing everything around the house, initiating SF (which he rarely wants - even before the A), etc. even through my withdrawal because I felt it was the right thing to do.

But now I'm starting to do DJs and AOs because I am feeling drained. Reading your post makes me realize that maybe I need to do a plan A in earnest, with purpose. But I haven't read much about anyone doing a plan A besides BSs. Do they work for FWSs? I don't know. I'm willing to try if it will help.

I don't have much advice for you, because I'm sitting in a similar boat. But lots of support!

RIM,

I know you are asking for FWSs and their opinions, but they are few and far between on these boards.

I am not a FWS but I've been around here a while and I hope I can give you some insight:

I don't know your whole story but you both had affairs, correct?

It sounds like there is the possibility that your H is having another affair. I would check into that first off. If he is this foggy, there may be reasons for it.

Secondly, keep up your Plan A while you try to figure out if he is engaged in another A. Are you sure you have his ENs right? What are his top 3, and are you meeting them?

Are you spending 15 hours of UA together? Are you doing RC things together?

[UA = Undivided Attention and RC = Recreational Companionship]

Are you ver familiar with the Basic Concepts here, and how they work? If not, read, read, READ some more.

If you can answer these things you might get some more help.

BTW, part of me agrees with WhoMe and others who say this M might not be salvageable. But I also totally respect your decision of not wanting to give up right now. That is admirable, also you will never regret not giving it everything you had.

I'll try to check back later and see if you have answered these questions.

JKT--

Thank you!!

My hubby is on a anti-D (just recently prescribed, 2 weeks ago, after me encouraging him to go to the doctor for about three months now). I am not sure if differences I have been noticing recently in him are from the anti-D, from my changes in attitude, or both (I'd like to think both!!). He still seems pretty miserable most of the time, but it seems a lot of his anxiety and anger has subsided.

He's VERY standoffish-- and has admitted that he stays away because he can't take the pain again (I wish I could put him in my head so that he could see I would NEVER EVER do this EVER again... that I don't know the person I was, and that I'm not that person anymore-- and that this is a permanent thing). Has said several times that he's afraid I would do it to him again sometime in the future (not true!! I've learned my lesson, but again, I can't put him in my head to make him see that). He shares VERY little emotion... is very distant.

Has admitted in the past that he wanted me to suffer, but now claims that isn't why he does this, its just he doesn't know what he wants. Although is very quick to point out (over and over) that I did this to him for a year, and I've only been going through it for 6 months.

I'm hanging on... he's already informed me that I am going to be disappointed at Christmas, because it was hard for him to come up with good gifts for me (?!?!), and that he hates christmas (over and over and over again, he's expressed how much he hates the holidays... funny, he's never complained that much about it in the past...).

I really don't know how to get through to him, other than my actions...

RIM

RIM,

I've skimmed thru your thread... I commend you for your desire to save your M.

I also understand why the others who have posted their believe you would be better off giving up...

I have been both WS and BS. I can tell you, if not for the "at the time" 17 years of M, and three kids involved, it would have been much easier just to D.

I am NOT telling you to quit on your M.

I will say you have a long painful road that requires 100% commitment from BOTH of you. You can not save a M alone.

You need a plan of action, and a time line.

I believe the first step after the anti-D's kick in for your H, is to ID his reasons for not supporting recovery.

-JKT

Hi Married forever--

Yes, we both had A's. He had 2 EA's (that he admitted), while he was out of town a lot for the first year of our marriage. From his description (which is all I have to go on), they were short-lived and either just grew apart or ended by him. I have to trust him on this, essentially, as these people are all out of town people and this was 2 years ago, so I have no way of knowing for sure- I don't even know their names.

His second (very, very involved) EA was right after I moved out of the house (we were not separated, but I was fence sitting, so I guess maybe my objection and hurt to this isn't so "fair"...). She lived across the country, which I think is the only reason it didn't become a PA. He did fly out ot see her (told me it was for work) one weekend, took her out on a weekend long date, met her family, took her out for fancy dinners, rubbed her feet... sent her flowers and cards in the mail, talked to her every day, several times a day... all while telling me he was being faithful and wanted to fix things (ugh). He told her he was divorced and was moving out to be with her soon. He lied to me about the whole thing, and I found out the whole truth from her... once she realized he had been lying to her too, she was very receptive to comparing stories with me.

RC is pretty high on my H's ENs, and we've been doing quite a bit of that recently. A ton, actually. The only thing I haven't weaseled my way on too much is his poker night. I don't like poker that much... I've gone a few times, but I know that is his time to himself with his guy friends too, so I try not to invade too much, just go occasionally (they play once a week). Other than that, we joined a gym together, have been going to the movies together, and going to other events together and doing things we both enjoy doing.

The UA part is hard... we probably do have 15 hours of UA together, but it feels very superficial because it is hard to get my H to invest in anything emotionally. Still trying though!

And, I have been on alert, looking for signs that my H is in an A of his own again-- some of his behaviors now are very similar to how he acted when he was in his EA a year ago. He's changed the passwords to his email accounts, but when he was in the shower, I snooped on his work computer to see if I could find something in his work email account... nothing suspicious. Nothing suspicious on the cell records. He hasn't been excessive amounts of time away from home or being shady like that. No clues on his myspace page, and he even listed himself as married and has pictures of the two of us on there. So, I guess unless he's become REALLY good at hiding it, I really don't think he's in a A of his own. Other than his email account and cell records, I'm not sure what else to check, really. I went with him to his work christmas party this past weekend and didn't get any weird vibes there or anything either... and he introduced me as his wife to everyone and everything... so, no evidence for his own A.

I have been reading all I can here, and have also read/skimmed Dr. Harley's books. I skimmed thru all of them, and have read pertinent chapters and am now starting to work back through them. I would still call myself a novice... but I am at least familiar with the concepts!

I respect that you think this may not be salvageable... but thanks for recognizing that I won't ever regret trying! I've seen changes, I've seen things getting sloooowwwly and sliiiightly better. I think I just needed to lower my expectations a bit...

RIM

I agree, JKT. I am plan A'ing away. I only found help and MB about a month ago, so I have only been "solidly" plan A'ing for about a month. And maybe I'm just being overly hopeful, but I think I've seen results!

I do have a "timeline" in my own head. Since I've only been Plan A'ing for about a month now (at least a GOOD plan A... I've had a modified version since september, but wasn't so good at it those first few months and made mistakes)... my time line is to keep plan A'ing until ~Valentines day. That is probably about 3 months of plan A'ing (or just shy of)-- before I go plan B, if he doesn't make the effort to re-commit. I think I owe him that much, at least.

Oh, and...our company holiday party is this afternoon. I really wanted my H to come, but he is wary of it because he doesn't like the people I work with (OM used to work here, no longer does, but a lot of the people I work with knew about the A, some even enabled it... I have since cut them out of my circle, but still). Anways, H, called me just recently and said he'd come over because "he knew it meant a lot to me" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I started crying on the phone! Then I told him F the holiday party, the fact that he was going to come over meant so much to me, all I wanted to do was spend time with him, and that I was just going to take an early day off of work and go home... and convinced him to go home early too-- so we are going to go home early to spend time together!!!

Yay! See, every once in awhile something like that happens that gives me hope....

RIM

Hi RIM,

That sounds like progress to me. Keep it up.

Thats Great..

The fact that you recognize the work place might be a huge trigger for him, and let him off the hook.

The fact the he was willing because it was important to you... This means you are BOTH putting each other first.

It's these little things that keep adding up to recovery.

keep in mind. you have a long rollercoaster ahead. It's all about more forward progess than backward over the long course, not day to day. Remember is a marathon, not a sprint.

-JKT

Good job, RIM. Not going to the party where he feels uncomfortable is the kind of ACTION that will speak to your husband. Excellent!

Maggie,

I don't think anyone takes away from the validity of a M that doesn't have children. It's often time the ONE thing couples in turmoil agree attempting to recover a M is owed to the kids... Without them, a fogged WS only sees personal belongings, time vested and/or money hold them back from being "Happy". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The main reason others have suggest RIM move toward D, is the timeline of the M...

A marriage in it's first few years "know as the honeymoon phase". Is not "supposed to" have issues of infidelity. You "supposed" to be goo goo over each other only...

The numbers or polls (So I hear) suggest a very high percentage of M's suffering infidelity early on are doomed.

Rim,

Personally... I like a challenge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'm a BS who feels pretty much the way you describe your BS. I never had any EA's, so I guess that changes the dynamic.

From what you posted, what he is saying doesn't sound all that unusual. He's withdrawn. Basically, he feels like, what's the point of doing anything? He most likely has things that he wants, but he's decided asking you is a poor strategy because in the past it has not worked. He doesn't want to ask anymore because the risk of being rejected is too high.

My advice is to quit asking what he wants and to start providing what you think he wants. And I'm not talking about just meeting EN's.

First off, he probably wants to know the truth, so to start with, have you confessed everything about your A? Are you hiding aspects of it? Are you trying to present it in the best possible light?

Some BS's stay numb for six months then go through an anger phase. Recovery takes two years on average.

Maybe your BS is being slow to respond to your plan A because he is afraid that your changes are not permanent. It is why recovery takes a long time and patience.

Keep showing him that you are not going anywhere and be an open book. This will help rebuild his trust in you.

Rprynne-

I guess what I am struggling with is that I truly DON'T know how he feels. I have NO IDEA. So-- if you don't mind sharing, how is it that you FEEL? I mean, how do you feel with regards to your wife-- feelings wise?

He says he doesn't know if he feels the same way, etc etc, doesn't know if he wants to be in the marriage. But he has acted in the past like he doesn't want me to leave either. Sometimes I feel like he's just "testing" me. I really truthfully have NO IDEA how he really, truly feels. All he EVER says is "I don't know if I feel the same way about you" and that he doesn't know if he still wants to be in the marriage. NOTHING positive, or nice, EVER. Even when things are good, EVER. NOTHING.

He's a miserable person to be around anymore... all he EVER does is whine and complain, about EVERYTHING... from his job, to me, to the weather, EVERYTHING is doom and gloom... including our marriage. It is very frustrating to be around someone so perpetually NEGATIVE about EVERYTHING. If he's not whining and complaining about something, he's just not talking at all. Its like he needs a SERIOUS attitude adjustment in life in general-- my lord, not everything in his life is awful... in fact most people would say he's got it going pretty good for himself, of course minus this situation!

I seriously just don't understand what he is thinking or feeling. I guess that is what I don't understand. I don't understand if he's just testing me, or what. And if I try to ask him, he just shuts down and then gets angry. You can't talk about ANY of this to him without him just getting angry-- and saying I am "pushing" him. Sigh. I really just wish I knew what was going through his head.

RIM

This is a BAD DAY.

H and I talk online via instant messenger while we are at work. He's started with his whole "I don't know if I want this marriage", "I don't know how I feel about you", and now he's added on that he doesn't even desire SF with me anymore. That is a new one. So, I told him that I wouldn't initiate SF anymore, that that was up to him from now on...

I feel like everything I do is taken for granted anymore... he appreciates nothing. I am having a bad day with this plan A stuff. I have been sitting at my computer at work crying... people are looking at me funny...

And there's no rhyme or reason for this. Last night, I went home early, we did some errands, things were good, we made dinner together and watched the football game. Went to bed. He said he didn't sleep well (he says that EVERY night anymore...), and then started with this stuff again today. I just can't take it. And I don't know how to respond when he starts with this stuff. I really don't. He says (quote): "i just still dont know what i want or feel anymore" and "and i do a lot of pretending too" (that is his big thing, that he just "pretends" all the time to make me happy, that he actually doesn't WANT to do any of these things for me... that he USED TO but I ruined that all...).

I can take the LACK of affection and emotion, what I can't take is the negative talk over and over again. It kills me. And I don't know how to respond to it.


He is going back to the doctor for a check up after the anti-D's they prescribed him. He says they "don't make him feel anything at all". I don't know. I think he is REALLY ashamed he is on anti-D's... but i have noticed a decrease in his anger and anxiety since he's been on them... he says he's "less miserable" but not happy. Its only been 2 weeks.

This is a very bad day. And they seem to come out of the blue with no reason. I really wish I knew what he was thinking.... I really do. I am starting to believe all this stuff that he says... especially since he NEVER says anything positive or nice. It would be easier to stomach this negative stuff if at SOME point there was positive stuff, but there isn't, ever. I just don't see him ever "waking up" and realizing that we can have the marriage we both want, but that I can't do it alone....



RIM

I'm sorry you guys are having a bad day. It can take a toll when one person is working hard to fix the R, and the other is very negative and unsure of the R. But these are the hard times- the storm before the sunshine. For better or worse is not just a statement, it is reality. Even if your A's had not happened, bad things happen in life, and being strong for each other is very hard sometimes. Think about it this way, you are a rock for the next, say, three months while he is unsure and waiting for meds to help. He pulls through and somewhere down the line, you go through a really bad time, and he steps up and pulls you through. It's like a see-saw, and the goal is for both people to have their feet on the ground and holding steady. But life isn't always like that...time to hunker down and show him what you're capable of to fix things.

Wish you the best...keep your head up!

I don't now if this will help but I wanted to assure you that some anti-depressants don't just decrease the negative emotions, but also any positive emotions too, and the sex drive.

The anti-D I was on didn't do this but I've heard some od.

So try not to take it too personally and don't lose hope.

(OH and I know about that crying in public stuff - did it a few times myself with people looking at me...)

((((((((Regert-Is-Me))))))))))

"now he's added on that he doesn't even desire SF with me anymore. That is a new one. So, I told him that I wouldn't initiate SF anymore, that that was up to him from now on..."

If I were you, I would take that back if you can. My H and are struggling with SF, too. I've tried the "fine. you have to initiate it then." approach and it doesn't work. It just puts me in a victim mentality. We just went through it again last night and I handled it very poorly. Don't want to see you in the same boat I am.

Let him be cranky about his issues, but don't get involved in a tit-for-tat about it. IMO, this will ruin your SF relationship. It has mine, anyway.