Also, meremortal is so right. Most anti-Ds are sex-killers. They would also explain why your H isn't sleeping right.

I guess it would be easier to be a "rock" in our relationship during the storm if there was sunshine on the other side, ever. It just feels like I am the rock during the storm, and then when the storm is over, there's no sunshine, just greyness before the next storm creeps up.

I know Anti-D's can decrease all emotions, but there wasn't any good emotions before he started them anyways-- only negativity or ambiguity. And the SF problems started shortly before he went on them (although have gotten worse since he's been on them). And the funny thing was, back in like October, our SF got better than it had been since college... and I don't understand why all the sudden it took a nose dive.

I don't know if he should go off of them... from my perspective, he's "easier" to deal with. He had no control over his anger before, and was very vengeful and bitter. There WAS no good. So, I guess "nothing" is better than constant nastiness.

Even back in August he was SO gung-ho for fixing this marriage. And I just wish I knew what happened to that part of him...

And with the SF... I just feel so rejected on that front too, which is not something I've dealt with before... I don't know how to deal with it. I feel like I'm not good enough anymore... like he has no desire for me on an emotional or physical level....

As a little bit of background.. back in October, we had SF for the first time in a LONG LONG time. He wrote me a big long letter that day and told me it felt like "old times" and he wanted to try again-- brought me home flowers that night, was super nice to me for the next few days, was truly my old husband. But then 48 hours later, we got in an argument over something stupid, and that was the end of that. He went back inot the funk he had been in since September... and hasn't come out since. He said a few times that he felt I was using SF to control him awhile back, but that isn't true. Now he's just EMPTY... not himself, like he doesn't care at all, even during SF. And that started BEFORE the Anti-D's (but gotten worse with them). I guess I just wanted the SF so much more than before because that was the only time that I felt close to him at all anymore. He won't even talk to me outside of stupid little surface discussions. We have no connection whatsoever anymore-- not for lack of my trying.

He pays absolutely NO attention to me anymore... sometimes I feel like if I disappeared he wouldn't know for days (which, scarily enough was something I said to him over and over again before the A started...).

I feel like someone kidnapped my husband....

RIM

So, while trying to distract myself at work and actually get some work DONE in order to hopefully retain my JOB... I had a slight epiphany. Not sure if anyone actually READS my thread, but if nothing, having everything here for me helps me, sort of like my own personal journal...

A little more background on me:

I had a group of friends I was super, super close with that have slowly but surely all moved away. They were my family essentially, as my family has never been that close, and my H's family moved across teh country when he was still in college. I am a very social person, and have always had a wide circle of close friends. During the time period when all of my friends were moving away, my H also got a job where he worked out of town 95% of the time, and would spend on average less than 48 hours a week at home. He rarely called, and it seemed to me I was more of a pain in his [censored] than I was anything else to him. During that time period in my life, I have never felt so alone... I didn't have any close friends left in the area, and all my friend that had left the area had moved on with new lives and new friends and we were all slowly drifting apart....

In the environment I work, I work very closely with 2 other women. I am not overly close with either of them (one is my boss, the other is a colleague... we are a "team" of sorts within a department). Well, when I started this new job, because I was wrapped up in taking care of my house and my husband, I really didn't make any close friends. I was VERY lonely. We had always speculated that my boss was having an A with someone else in the department, but I still don't know for sure if this was true. It was DEFINITELY and EA if nothing else... but they were awfully touchy feely and worked some late hours together, so I wouldn't be shocked if it was a PA too. I also found out about 3 months before my own EA started that my colleague was having a PA with someone else from the department. At first, when she told me, I was truly disgusted... I couldn't imagine how she could do that.

After she told me about it, she would "update" me on the A, how it was going... truthfully, I didn't really think it was a good idea, but it felt good to "have a friend"-- someone to talk to about SOMETHING. Stupid. This was the beginning of my A, even though at this point, I really wasn't even TALKING to the OM. She sort of glorified her A... and even though I didn't really believe in it, I just wanted to have a friend. Wow, sounds like something some high school girl would say. I realize how stupid this was. Well, during one of these conversations, I mentioned that I thought someone else from the department was cute... and BAM my A was off to the races... she encouraged me to talk to him, gave me excuses to go and walk past where he works, blah blah blah. A TRUE enabler.

Well, her A was discovered by her H, and she went NC, and is now recovered (he found out 1.5 years ago...). She is pregnant now and due in January. After her H found out, she told me to stop what I was doing with my OM, that it wasn't worth it. But I didn't really listen-- at that point, it was a full blown EA, and I was eating the attention. Not to mention, hanging out with my colleague and the OM and I made OTHER new friends... people that they hung out with. Suddenly... I had FRIENDS again! Social contacts!

I pretty much made this new life for myself, based on lies... it was all based on lies. I don't talk to those people anymore, and I am back to having NO FRIENDS. BEING ALONE 24/7. That's it. Its just me. My colleague took off the next 6 months unpaid for maternity leave. My other people in the department I used to be "friends" with I either don't talk to anymore, or have left themselves (we have a lot of turn over here). I never really talked with my boss about this.

So, I think partially my A was from feeling neglected, but I also think that "having friends" again-- a close knit "family" of sorts... really drove my behavior too. And that is ALL ME. My personal faults. But I still can't help but feeling alone again... and now I'm torn between trying to reach out and make new friends again (of course, not this way-- through my own activites and such) and making my own life again, and working on my marriage. Because my H sees it as me having my own separate life for awhile which didn't allow me to work on my marriage... which was true. And I don't want him to think that that is true NOW. But at the same time, I feel so alone again... I have NOTHING again. No friends, no husband... the same environment I was in when this all started... and that scares the living bejesus out of me.

I don't know if I should share this with my H or not (my epiphany). I truthfully don't see him being very supportive, probably only shoving it back in my face which is going to hurt really bad right now, because I'm still sort of raw... really raw.

Need help today guys... please don't ignore me. I feel like I am losing it...

RIM

Hi RIM, we are here... as many of the veterans have told me in the past... breath! I don't know aboout you but just getting it out makes me feel better. I'm sorry I can't give you any other words of wisdom, but know that your courage to come here and tell your story is appriciated buy some BSs including myself.

Hi Rim, I read through your posts today and I have a couple of questions. Have you actually looked your husband in the eye and told him that you are SORRY for your betrayal and asked for his forgiveness? (Doesn't matter if he has or not at this point.)

You also said that you've gone "No contact." Did you write a no contact letter and ask your husband to send it for you? (MB plan?)

I think I'm seeing a HUGE trust issue on both of your parts. You have only been married a short time and you're dealing with multiple affairs (EA and PA). That's a LOT of damage in a short time.

Both of you seriously need to admit that you were wrong (no excuses) and be geniunely sorry. The question is, who goes first?

I don't know if you're a believer. But some serious prayer would also help if you really want to make this right.

I have told him that I'm sorry and asked for his forgiveness. I actually have spent the past few days (hand writing!) an apology letter to give to him, tonight.

We do have HUGE trust issues. I will admit that. In late October, he took another woman out for lunch and then had a series of flirty emails back and forth with her (this all took place over the course of a few days only). He was working in a certain part of town that day, where she works (he audits, so he travels around for work).

Well, just today, he had to go out to that part of town for a doctor's appointment at lunch time. And has been gone a very, very long time... and now I'm left her sitting here wondering if he took HER out to lunch again... he promised me he wouldn't... but he's been gone an awfully long time... and the last time he did this he didn't tell me until AFTERWARDS. I feel like he'd rather put the effort into someone else rather than put the effort into us to fix us.

Just as much as he doesn't trust me, I don't trust him... but he doesn't seem to see that as a problem... or really anything he's done as a problem. He used to admit his mistakes, but now, just like a lot of WS, EVERYTHING is my fault anymore, somehow or another, even if it doesn't make sense. He really doesn't see his EAs as that big of a deal at all, even though they kill me inside and it takes ALL of my effort to just get over the hurt and betrayal that I feel and put his feelings of betrayal first. It is so draining.

I don't care if I have to be first... that is fine. I have been solidly (if I do say so myself!) plan A'ing for at least a month now. I am sorry, I have said I'm sorry over and over again, I have asked for forgiveness (he says he can't right now). I wrote a 3 page long apology letter, without a SINGLE excuse in there.

I did not write a NC letter, but I have since changed my phone number, and he no longer works with me. I haven't heard from him in awhile. I can send a NC letter (and have offered, but H has pretty much said that it wouldn't mean anything now, and he doesn't care if I do it or not), but I'm afraid it would stir a pot at this point-- I did have trouble getting the OM to actually respect my NC wishes for awhile (which also drove H up the wall, and he blamed it on me). Do you think I should now? Or let a sleeping dog lie? I didn't find this board until after I had already went NC.


RIM

Concerning the sunshine, you need to find that within yourself. It's not "out there somewhere," it comes from within...check this out


This is a quote by Learning2fly, a BS who posted to toomuchtoosoon over the weekend. I hope it illustrates the point I am trying to make, or at least inspires and uplifts you as it did me.

I am sorry you feel so alone. My DH went through my destructive fog all alone as well, and it made it worse for him, I think. Just be careful that you do not seek out people who would offer you the wrong kind of advice, i.e. "you should leave him" type of stuff. Wouldn't it be better if you helped him through this and then found friends together, instead of the "your friends, my friends" stuff?

Wishing you the best...

Since I didn't find MB either until well after we were into recovery, I defer to the MB experts on whether you should still send a no-contact letter. Do you understand that there are "no expectations" while you're doing Plan A?

Can you afford a counseling session with one of the Harleys? They may be able to get straight to the heart of the matter. I've heard it's well worth the money and they've helped a lot of people.

I understand that there are no expectations... and am working my hardest not to have any. I guess where I struggle with things is it feels like I am getting somewhere then **WOOSH!** the rug goes out from under me and we are back where we started, then I get a little bitter about him taking away things that he gave to me... ya know? I know its not right, and I'm trying to beat it out of my head!

We could afford a counseling session. we were going to MC... but the guy we were seeing was an idiot.. we did try counseling wiht someone we both liked last January, but only went to a few sessions before we stoppped going (I didn't want to go anymore... sigh. I was pretty foggy at that point). but now she doesn't have any appointments available that fit our schedule. Arg. Oh, and we went to one other COMPLETELY INSANE MC in september of last year (over a year ago)... we both LAUGHED about it after we left, it was actually sort of bonding... she was a nut case-- she tried to hypnotize us, and then did all this weird stuff with mirrors and smelling stuff... it was kinda nuts, and not very pratical.. and $200!!!! Haha.

I was thinking of asking him if we could call the Harley's... but he's so very much against any sort of working towards a reconciliation, that I'm not sure that even the Harleys could get through to him. And it seems anyone TRYING to get through to him just makes him ANGRY, actually, because he says he feels "pushed". Arg. you can't win. I was thinking of calling MYSELF and asking for advice, and whether or not they think they can do anything with him (if he even agrees to it...).

He's REALLY against moving in a direction that is pro-marriage at this point. Over and over and over agian he points out "he's not ready". As if he's waiting for an epiphany... some moring he's going to wake up and decide that "its the day to start putting effort back into the marriage!".

Today is just a slippery day for plan A. I think because I've been separated from him that it has been easier to maintain a facade of plan A today, but I've been breaking down all day-- he just never saw it. I broke down here instead of to him. I'm still plugging along!

RIM - Seems like you side stepped my question???

You asked how I feel about my WW. For the most part I feel the same. I love her. What has changed is that I have lost faith in her. As she did with me.

What effect does this have on me? It means I'm not convinced about investing in the relationship. It means I have to see some "returns" before I'm going to jump back in.

Maybe your BH feels the same way, I don't know.

As for a couple other items you mentioned.

First I wouldn't get frustrated about how he seems to have changed his mind. He probably hasn't changed his mind, he just never said he had doubts when you were fence sitting. How could he? He didn't know if he wanted the M or not, but he knew he wanted the choice. I hope this doesn't bring you down. My point was, things have not gotten worse, they are just getting out in the open.

As for complaining about every thing, this is a part of a key MB concept. When your M is strong, all these other things don't matter as much. But when your M is struggling, these things seem to be worse. I think this has to do with the fact that people will put up with difficult jobs or other things when they think it is a means to a happy M, but once the happy M is in jeopardy, they lose tolerence for these other things.

If I were in your situation I would do three things. First, do the things you know you should do. Apologize, come clean with the facts, give him a NC letter and tell him he can send it if he wants. Second, make a plan to meet his top EN's, if you don't know them, go with the most likely, SF and RC. Third, tell him what you want him to do and ask how him how you can help do that. For example, when he said he doesn't want SF, you could answer with "Well, I do. What can I do to help you meet that need of mine." My point is that he is withdrawn. You need to act so that he will move out of being withdrawn.

I sincerely hope his EA's are over. Much of this advice is irrelevent if he is in an active A.

Finally, I think its important to realize that there is a balancing act for you here. You can't just expect him to "get over it", but if his only goal is to make you suffer, then I would not accept that either. From what you wrote, he may just be retaliating, or wallowing around in self-pity. I'd give it some time, to test that out, but at some point you may have to confront him about that.

What question?? Sorry, I am not side stepping, or trying to side step anything. Its just sometimes I check back here and there's been so many responses with questions that I overlook some, but it is not on purpose...

RIM

No problem.

My question was;

Have you answered all his questions regarding your A truthfully? If he has stopped asking questions, are there any facts in which he is still under the wrong impression? If you lied about anything or sugar coated things in the past, I'm sure he senses it.

IMHO, prooving that you are being completely honest (about the past and going forward) is a good first step in getting him to stop being withdrawn.

RIM - How'd did the rest of your day go, how’s your morning so far? Hopefully you’re feeling a little better than yesterday did you give him the letter? Did it help?

Have you considered that what you are interpreting as 'reverse' fog is actually FOG? You have suspicions that the EA is still going on... could this gut feeling be right?

Rrpyne--

I will admit to some sugar coating, but he does know the essential facts of the affair. Its hard not to sugar coat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> especially with as fragile as he is right now, and especially since he's so on the verge of leaving me, I'm afraid if I didn't sugar coat a few things, it would give him that little push to just up and leave. Plus, really we avoid talking about the A or anything that happened concerning it at all costs. We really can't at this point-- he gets very angry and upset and we just can't have a civil conversation about it, its impossible at this point-- I've tried. He either shuts down completely or gets very angry. Do you think that I should come completely clean now? I mean, I guess i see your point (correct me if I'm wrong), that if I sugar coat now, and then let him know the full truth later, it might just send us into a tailspin again.

I just feel like he's got one foot out the door, and I am doing everything I can to not let the other one out too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

RIM

Hi TMTS-

I am back on the plan A track today. I was really losing it yesterday.... when I got home yesterday, H had beat me home (which hardly ever happens), and had taken care of the dog and started dinner. I will admit that I did make a comment about him doing NOTHING around the house anymore (which is true, he's pretty much just sat back and watched me run the WHOLE house without helping with ANYTHING (or making excuses why he's too busy to help). So I think that is where the sudden helping came from. I know that comment wasn't so "plan A-ish", but I was really losing it yesterday... I am so stressed out with work and with what is going on at home, I just feel like I go from one stressful place to another! Work is pilling a lot of responsibilities on me recently...

Last night in bed I lost it... I started crying... he held me and said I didn't have to hide my tears from him... but that was all he said. I didn't really talk to him at all, because I'm so afraid to say anything anymore, he just gets defensive and starts fog speaking which makes the hurt even worse. So, I just cried. And he fell asleep (while I was still crying).

This morning was a normal morning. Nothing all that unusual to report. I am meeting him for lunch in a bit. We'll see how that goes.

And in terms of the fog-- I have been snooping, I will admit. He changed all the passwords on all of his accounts a long time ago, but I did manage a few weeks ago to bust into his work email account (he left his computer out while he was in the shower), and there was nothing suspicious there-- unless he's deleting them all. Nothing suspicious on the cell phone bills. He really doesn't spend THAT much time away from me, other than work. And I went to his work holiday party this past weekend with him, and didn't notice anything strange- he introduced me as his wife and all. So, if there is an EA, it would have to be during work hours only. Plus, he audits for work, so he does travel around a bit from place to place, so its not like he's in one office for very long to develop strong contacts with people. So, I guess the moral of the story is that he's VERY good at hiding it if there is an EA. But then again, he hid his last very involved EA from me for over 2 months before I found out... but I wasn't "looking" then either though.

So, I guess I don't know. I haven't found anything that leads me to think that there's an EA going on-- and I have been snooping. And he denies it. So for now, I'm left to believe this is a reverse fog. If I find out that there's an A of any kind going on, I've already decided it is immediate plan B time...

RIM



Last night we went to a holiday gathering with some of his friends to make holiday ornaments and christmas cookies. Nothing special-- since there was a ton of people there (and kids), it wasn't really like us spending any time together.

We pretty much came home and went straight to bed.

Oh-- and I brought him home daises last night from work (they were our wedding flower). Kinda weird giving flowers to a guy, but still.

I was going to take the dasies and leave them on the kitchen counter this morning with the letter and coffee for him to take to work with him, but we got up late this morning and were rushing around, so I didn't get a chance to give it to him. He has the rest of the week off of work, so I am going to do it tomorrow morning, because he'll still be in bed. The letter is all finished though. Truthfully, I don't expect a response of any kind. I think he'll probably just say to me "this doesn't say anything I didn't know or you didn't already say" which is what he usually says.

RIM

He held you while you cried and said "You don't have to hide your tears from me." That is a positive thing! It means he still cares about you. It means when you are vulnerable to him, he will respond. He could have said "oh, cry me a river" and rolled over and went to sleep. Then I would say- yikes!

There is still love inside him, if you can break through the raw pain and withdrawl. Do a good plan A for 1 month and see if he doesn't start to come around. You showing your "soft" side will hopefully keep him from getting angry. Maybe in those moments you could ask him what he needs from you for him to feel better.

I'm glad to hear you feel better today. I saw the alien WW last night and it got ugly between her and my ODD.
I wrote a similar letter to my WW a couple of weeks ago with the coaching of JHC. All she said was "That's nice" not sarcastic or anything, more appreciative. The interesting part is this... she keeps all cards and letters that she holds dear to her, as done so for years. I checked the drawer that she keeps those letters in and I found it there. Point is, see what he does with the letter. With a guy he may not keep it, we don't think the same way when it comes to those thinks, but I know myself, when it's something important or sweet, I will read and re-read several times. I don't know that he will react the same way but, if it has any effect on the fog, you'll probably see it manifested as a reaction you would not expect.

I would imagine my WW thinks I know the essential facts of her A. But I don't. She has provided a nice story of it, neatly packaged in what is supposed to be a pleasant blend of what I can "handle" and what portrays her in the best possible light. The problem with doing that is that it never fits reality. Every time I run into one of those mismatches between the story I was told and reality, I am left to conclude that either my WW thinks I'm too stupid to figure it out, or I'm to weak to handle it. Neither of which leave me feeling warm and fuzzy.


Here's the problem with sugar coating. Do you want your H to love you or love who you can pretend to be? At some point you are going to have to face this. There aren't any risk free recoveries.


I really don't know. If it were me, its what I would want. Can't you ask him if it is what he wants.


Partially, but its really more about getting him out of being withdrawn. He has asked for things that you refused to do. Now he does not see any reason to ask, or even worse, he's afraid to ask.

This may seem complicated, but most times, its really a matter training and feedback. In my own life, prior to d-day, I had no problem asking for what I want. I kept doing that for the first 2 years of this mess. After my third false recovery, I realized telling my WW what I want was the most painful and least effective thing I could do. So I stopped. Unlearning that will be difficult. So most times when we talk, I get angry and frustrated. Not so much at her, but at the fact that I am so conflicted. She's asking what I want, and part of me wants to have faith that if I tell her she will help, the other part is reminding me of all the "training" I've received over the last three years. This usually comes out in a big jumbled mess of "I don't know's."

IMHO, the best way to get someone to come out of being withdrawn is to change the feedback loop. Start giving them what they want. If they won't tell you what they want, guess at it. If that still doesn't work change the approach or the question. Tell them what you want and ask them how you can help them provide it. Anything that begins to reinforce the idea that it is worth their while to express what they want. When they finally do, make sure you deliver. Now, with all of that, you have to have your boundries. This is why I said in the other post, its a balancing act. You don't sacrifice or accept abuse. If the only thing he wants is retaliation, then, I'm sorry to say, it isn't going to work out.

Anyway, my best guess at something he may want is to know the whole truth. Timing and tactics are certainly a consideration. You may want to wait and try other things for a while. Think back, what are other things he asked for that you didn't do? What are things that he used to ask for and no longer does. If after a few weeks of doing this he is still withdrawn, then you may have no choice but to assume this is what is holding him back. I mean if he doesn't stop being withdrawn, not much is going to get better, so it really is not all that much of a risk.

Finally, even with all the above said, I really think you should snoop hard. The EA's may be the problem. It is an equally plausible explanation of his withdrawn state. He may not be asking you for things because someone else is providing them.

I've been doing a pretty solid plan A for about a month now. I've seen SOME results, but he's still pretty withdrawn, and I haven't seen ANY indication of commitment to the marriage.

At lunch today I asked him if he wanted to plan a vacation to Aruba for teh two of us for my "spring break" (I work for a University, so I get that week off too). He seemed pretty unenthusiastic about it, but agreed. I would just go ahead and plan it all, but he has a boat-load of Marriott points (from 1.5 years of being out of town and staying in Marriotts, we have over 4 months FREE in a five star Marriott hotel. Although it was NOT WORTH IT... being separated, that is...)... anyways, he has to call because the Marriott account is in his name and check out the rates, etc. I said I'd take care of everything else if he'd do that. He seemed pretty unenthusiastic though.

Oh-- we are visiting his family (across the country from us) for Christmas this year for 10 days, and while we are out there visiting, we are going to take a road trip to Las Vegas (just the two of us) for a two nights. Hopefully that will give a little QT alone.

And in terms of snooping... its hard. Very hard. He has changed all of his passwords, and the last time that I asked him if I could see his email account he got on this high horse about how he didn't owe me anything and wasn't going to show me (even if I showed him mine). I since changed all of my passwords for everything to one thing, and told him, so he can check anything of mine he wants at anytime. He has a work email account that he can only access from his work laptop... and that thing is like Fort Knox! Not just because of him, but because of his company, they have like 456356567 passwords that change every month (and are assigned to him, and are completely random things like "moose foot 7"). He works for a company that does auditing work, so his computer has to be secure. Anyways, so my only chance to bust into it is pretty much when he walks out of the room but the computer is still on-- but the screen saver hasn't kicked on yet (yes, that is also password protected!). That doesn't happen often. So, I don't have a whole lot of ways of checking up on his computer usage... he hardly ever uses our home one.

He also has a yahoo email account. And when the really involved EA started, he "found" the woman by posting an online personal ad in yahoo personals and emailing her that way, then phone calls, then out to visit her.... I haven't seen that one in awhile either though. I don't know of any others that he has...

And he has a myspace account, but he has himself listed as "married" and has pictures of me on there....

I have also signed onto his AOL screen name a few times from our home computer and just let it sit, to see if anyone suspicious IMed him... but got nothing.

I have gone through the text messages and phone call log on his cell phone and poured over the cell phone bills. Nothing suspicious (but then again, he uses his cell for work extensively, so sometimes it is hard to distinguish work from personal phone calls... but I've been slightly psycho a few times and blocked my number and called number he calls a lot, and they've all been work related... and guys. Sigh.

The only thing I don't have access to is that we have two separate checking accounts (because he was out of town so much before, it was just easier that way so we weren't over withdrawing all the time). So, I can't really get access to that-- and he stopped paper mailings of the bills to our house and just gets the electronic versions-- to his super secure email account. Sigh.

So-- if anyone has any other snooping ideas, I'd love them. Because I'm just about out of them right now, and he refuses to show me anything because "I'm not owed it" which only makes things look more shady... and I've said that, and he just reiterates that I'm not owed it.

I dunno... I need to get a hold of his work computer again and look through the history and email account. But its really hard to do because its like fort knox, and i can't even "guess" the passwords because they are so random and change so frequently.

RIM