RIM, I'm still reading.

I understand you're frustrated, I have days when I come here to throw tantrums & then kick & scream more when people don't post to my thread/tantrum! Not saying you're having a tantrum, just saying I know how it feels.

I know you want help w/the M & not just the alcohol/addiction. I'll bet you're mighty sick & tired of hearing about that because "it's irrelevant". That's EXACLTY where I was just over a year ago. I was working on M, but hubby was either working on getting drunk or thinking about the next occasion or pouting cuz I wouldn't let him. And MelodyLane told me then, she promised me in fact, that if I didn't look at this VERY SERIOUSLY, she promised me I'd be in the same spot a year from (then). Like clock-work, a year later (now) I've returned.

I wasn't ready to accept it then but I am now. And I don't want the same for you. But I understand that beating you over the head with "he's an alcoholic" will only irritate you until you're ready.

Here's what I'll say about your marriage, again: you cannot meed the EN of an addict. Whether he's "cut back" or not. You can't. You know you can't, because you aren't, and he's surely not meeting yours! Sure, there are times he is, like the night you just described, but even while it was happening you were telling yourself how weird it is. That's not normal!

Recently in my thread I said I wondered what made my H suddenly become such a jerk. My once very affectionate, very attentive, car always warmed up/brushed off, helped with dinner, pretty responsible with money...now out of the house & being an absolute jerk - even to the kids! Then someone posted to me that if I'm honest w/myself, I'll look closer & see how it wasn't very sincere. OUCH! LIVING A LIE?!?!?!?! Yes, I was. And also, what they portray as sincerty or thoughtfulness is actually manipulation - again, I KNOW you know this about your own H!

So, I'm sorry - I'm not really experienced in the WS/BS area. Or...am I? My H is definitely in bed with another woman: his dang beer! Not every day or non-stop but too much. And when given the choice to ditch it or leave, he promptly left. And then told me how horrible I am, that's why he left. Uh huh.

I don't want more misery for you, RIM. And if you choose to leave this board that's OK, you know what I'm going to tell you...find support in Al-Anon! For real, they are the nicest strangers I've ever met. And they let me sit & cry if that's what I need today. And I never, ever have to see them again if I don't want to - yet I can attend a different meeting tomorrow.

OK, that's all for now. I'll still be watching & hoping you can have peace too.

Rim

I know there isn't much advise I can give you about the logistcs of PLB.

Just want you to know I am still here and prayin for you BOTH

Rocky

Hello there Dear...

And you think no one reads this...

Ok, time to get somewhat tough.

why is it your specifically going to plan B in March? Your in this limbo state of trying to figure out wheather to act like a FWW or a BW. I don't see hiw the way you act has any bearing on how he sees things, which is you are the FWW, so act in that manner. Now you've been running a Plan A on him, and he has used it to gain power over you. Rhy? This is why I mentioned to you that he is acting like that 5yo that wants a candy bar whenever you don't respond the way he want's. then you consistntly react exactly how he expects you to. This is the patern you need to stop. When you do your 180 it must be concsistant, if you give in only once he will keep using it. Now you need to do a FWW review for youeself, and you need to be completely honest with yourself...have you done all you can to restore this M? It is a tough question but there may be something that you are doing or saying that us acting as a triger. You must be consisistant! When he acts up,180 right away. I don't think that hope id gone, just be patient.

(((((((((RIM)))))))))))

RIM,

I am reading.....And I care very much.....

Hey RIM, I might not post but I do read. Sometimes 'we' might not have a solution for you, but you are in my prayers.

OK-- now I'm annoyed. I just typed this long response, and well, its gone and never got posted. Grr.

Last night was a good night. I guess I am just feeling bitter recently and becoming apathetic about whether or not this even survives.

I'm really tired of him playing the victim in all of this.... to himself and to our family and friends. I'm tired of him acting like super husband in public and behind closed doors being an [censored]. Its hard to feel bad for a "victim" when they are doing VERY LITTLE to help their situation-- and taking advantage of other people when they do it.

I guess with the alcohol, he goes through stages with it-- where he'll drink a lot, then drink hardly at all for months and months, then go through a stage where he'll drink a lot again for a month or two. I don't really know what to classify it as.

I am looking into an extended stay hotel in our town to stay at for a month or so in March-- if figure if he doesn't come around by then then I'll start shopping around for a lease. I don't want to sign a lease right away then get stuck with the bills for the apartment for a year if he decides to wake up. I decided on March because I'll find out some important information about my job in March about a possible large raise and new 2 year project that will determine whether or not I'm willing to put "moving out of town" on the table as an option for starting over. OM is no longer working here, I've been in TRUE NC since November. I had been trying for NC since June, and asked OM for it since then, but he kept bothering me until I changed all phone numbers, emails, etc. I never answered any of his emails or texts at all after June.

Yeah-- so I am just falling out of love with him and starting to think that maybe I just wanted back the guy that I wanted, not who he is. That's why I'm thinking plan B. Because at this point, I just don't care that much anymore. And because of that, I've gotten better at 180. He throws a hissy fit and I just don't respond. Because I don't care that much anymore. Yesterday he started with the beginnings of one... I just ignored him. He texted me on the way home, I didn't answer. I got home, acted like it was all normal, and so did he. Situation diffused. You want to throw a hissy fit about something stupid and simple and overreact and make yourself miserable?? Have at it. You aren't dragging me down... and I'm certainly not rescuing you anymore. If you are TRYING that hard to be miserable and not TRYING to NOT be miserable... well, you deserve it buddy.

Tonight we are going to a friend's birthday party. Tomorrow is "date night" again-- I am planning. Then Sunday my parents are coming over for dinner, which is always stressful because I am not at all close with my parents and we have a lot of issues...

I am also dreading V-day... I have something nice planned for us, and a sentimental gift that I am making him. I have a feeling he'll do nothing... not even get me flowers (he usually at least does that). Now-- the flowers thing is a trigger for me. Because he sent OW#3 a huge bouquet of flowers for her birthday with a sappy little note that make me gag with his little pet name for her. And took her roses. So-- when a large occasion such as V-day comes and goes and he doesn't get me flowers... well, I get bitter because I feel like well, he could get them for HER... why not ME? Nevermind the fact that before my A... my 2 birthdays before that he wasn't even HOME for... and NEVER EVEN GOT ME A PRESENT. Nice. Its just such a slap in the face.

And I am well prepared for the disappointment that lies ahead of me. He KNOWS this is a big deal for me (the flowers bit). But he'll make up some excuse about how I did this that or the other thing to him in the past, therefore he's not getting me flowers for this V-day. And it enrages me.... so I just don't bring it up. But I'm preparing myself. I know he won't get any for me. I MIGHT get a card and some candy. If I'm lucky. And I know I'll be bitter. I'll try my hardest not to show it... but I just don't get how someone can be so vengeful and want to hurt someone as much as he tries so hard to hurt me.

I just wish V-day wouldn't come this year. It is going to be a miserable day for me. I know it.

RIM

Hi RIM,

Your stitch is so tough. One day it seems like he might come around, the next I want to go slap him around for you. If you are loosing your feelings for him, than yes Plan B makes sense. (Let's just hope it wasn't too late). But that doesn't mean it's over. Remember a while back I asked you if he felt like he really lost you? What was your behavior once you left? Were you initiating contact, was it you that decided to go home? ECT. I hope you get my point. If he felt like he still had that control over you then his plan A was not for him but to lure you back. What really concerns me about all of this is that he sees you as a possession. We also have to keep in mind that this time around you are the WS so that adds a new dynamic to it. You came back after his Plan A, you are more than willing to work on the R, be transparent and make restitution, but it doesn't seem to get you anywhere. Have you considered Plan FU? It's risky but it will give him a look at the new confident you.

Yeah, I guess that's where I struggle. My sitch doesn't fit AT ALL in any of these neat little peg holes! I wish it did-- so I could just learn and apply. But it seems that there's a lot of conflicting advice depending on what "hat" I am wearing... the WS, the BS, the wife of an alcoholic... the wife of someone who's "doesn't know waht he wants" and "doesn't know if he loves me anymore"...

And yes, he does come around a bit then its like he feels like he's putting in TOO much effort, so he has to go back to being an [censored]. That's why I loved that slot machine analogy. Every time I get really pissed at that "machine" (ie, H)-- and I'm gonna get up and walk away and take my quarters elsewhere, it pays out... just a little... just enough to keep me trying, hoping that someday it will give me that jackpot...

And, really his "plan A" was a plan A chock full of expectations. He missed the memo on the no expectations part. He would plan A me... IF AND ONLY IF he though there was something in it for me (ie, I was "coming around" or whatever). Truthfully, if he didn't see something in it for him, this is how he behaved also. Just like this. It was a plan A... if there was something in it for him. If there wasn't... well, then he just reverted back to this same person. But I guess what I saw that was if I COULD be the wife he needed me to be, he could be the husband I needed him to be. That's why I came home. I figured that I could be that wife, I knew I could be. Especially if he could be that husband!

Well... that never happened, clearly. But, don't ever think his plan A held a candle to yours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Remember, he cheated on me during his plan A... (revenge A...)... he LBed up and down... lied to me... AO.... you name it. So, it was like a selfish plan A. Lets call it that-- he did a selfish plan A.

I did plan FU for about 3 months before I moved out of the house. He morphed into the wonder H. It was crazy. I think he is way too prone to take things for granted and is now too. He actually made the comment to me a few weeks back when he was really mad that "I was the perfect wife now". Hahahaha....

I am doing a combo of 180 and plan A right now, until March. Then he gets the plan B letter. I've already written down my terms for reconciliation. I know what they are. I wish I didn't have to go plan B. I see plan B as risky for me because he's the kinda person that goes out and seeks attention from other people if he feels "jilted" (hence, his revenge A, and also his 2 EA's prior... oh yea, and then when he got mad at me back in October he took another girl out to lunch and then sent her flirty little emails for a few days... he can't be alone, someone has to be stroking his ego at all times...)

So, I see plan B as risky for 2 reasons... one, there's a good possibility he'll just find SOMEONE ELSE to fill that hole in him. Easier than deflating the ego for a few minutes and trying to reconcile with the WIFE. Reconciliation would take humbling himself. Finding someone else wouldn't. Sick, eh? He did this to his ex GF too... every time they weren't getting along, he'd start going out looking, flirting with other girls... (they dated for 4 or 5 years?)

And the second reason is that I think he's just trying to push me to my breaking point, so that I LEAVE and he can blame it all on me in his own head, and also to our friends and family. Now, that's totally not the case, but he's played his victim violin to everyone.... our friends and family included and I'm sure he'll do it again. There won't be a story of "well she wants to reconcile but I'm being an abusive [censored], so she left until I am ready to treat her properly and work on the M"... the story he'll give people is that "he's trying so hard... I cheated on him... he was trying and trying and it was just so hard... and now I just abandoned him... boo hoo..."

Grrr... makes me angry to think about it. I'm so tired of his victim routine. So when I leave do I TELL our mutual friends/his family and mine my intentions?? Because I'M POSITIVE he wont' tell them the truth. He's a master at manipulating stories... telling people half stories to spin things in his favor...

I don't get him either.

All I know is that before i came here and we were going to the idiot counselor, I wrote him several letters with my "terms for reconciliation" and told him he either agreed or I was leaving (threatening...). He would never directly answer and just kept saying "you may not get the answer you want!" and then would steer the conversation at the counseling session so that we never got to that..

He's cake eating, and at this point has NO REASON whatsoever to COMMIT to the marriage. Why should he?!?! I mean, I'm being the "perfect wife" (in his own words!) while he's being a selfish [censored]! Best of both worlds!! He's taking care of himself, I'm taking care of him... well jeez... other than the moral implications of that, that sounds pretty good to me! He's not going to make a decision. He's perfectly happy with the status quo. Why should he?? What benefit would that be to HIM? (the selfish, taker him...). None. Really its just a benefit to ME. But it is to him too... he just doesn't see that. Because it would be a better stronger M.

So, those are my 2 concerns with plan B. That he'll just run off and find someone else, because that's his pattern... or that he'll just use it as a way to justify it to everyone else and himself that I am a horrible person that abandoned our M.

RIM

Hi Rim,

IMO both those scenarios are deal breakers because it proves our theory that you are his possession. Do you want to even love someone who will treat to like that? The meeting OW should be number one, and the penalty severe, D. This would tell you that he is only in this relationship for what he gets out of it, not what will make you both happy.
From what you describe, he needs to grow up and be shown that you will no longer be his mother.

So-- I had a meeting at 12 today (I have one every friday at 12). Usually these are over at 1. Well, today it ran a little late, and then right afterwards I ended up getting pulled into helping someone with something else. So, I just get back to my computer now (and hour later than normal). Well, while I was gone, H sent me an IM that says "you've been gone a long time" (he gets nervous when I "disappear" at work....).

I changed my myspace page recently too (I hate myspace, I only have one because he has one, so I "monitor" his usage thru my account, essentially. That is about the only reason I maintain an account...and I do use it occasionally to stay in contact with a few friends that have moved far away... anyways.. recently I actually took the time to actually PUT a profile up (I hadn't actually had a profile prior to this past week). So, I made a list of random facts about me-- and put that up. Some silly, some serious.

Well, today H leaves a comment on my page that says "parts of your profile sound like a personal ad... sickening.". Whatever. Nevermind the fact that that is how he found OW#3... he put himself on yahoo personals as single. Oh yeah, and was trolling the personal ads on there way before I even moved out of the house. And it wasn't personal ad-ish. It was really just a list of things about me. It clearly says on my page that I'm married. And there's pictures of the two of us on there. Oh-- and my main "picture" on the main page is a picture of me, HIS MOM, AND HIS BROTHER'S FUTURE WIFE!

I didn't comment back. And I didn't mention it. Nor the fact that I was MIA for a bit. Well, I just said that I had to help a co-worker for a bit after my meeting. Which was true. That was it. Very matter of fact. And then changed the subject.

Whatever, he's being unreasonable. And even if he has some problem with my page and it is insulting to him and he'd like me to change it-- that's fine. But he's going about it the wrong way and I'm not responding to that. Posting that its "sickening" on a public forum... um, whatever. Not the way to go about it. Can't we act like grown-ups?

RIM

Post deleted by nesre

Yep, he's unwilling right now to work on himself and he's not a good person-- he's selfish and lacks empathy and is unable to have an remorse and is awfully self entitled. The good sides come out when he's afraid of losing. One of my favorite quotes from a song...

"Don't care about winning but you sure don't want to lose..."

That's where he is now... he doesn't care about "winning" (ie- recovery for him AND us...) but sure doesn't want to lose the M either.

I can't change him. I can only change what I do. I have already done a fairly good job of changing my responses to him. And while I'm not where I want to be yet, and I slip into old habits sometimes... well, I'm getting better. And I think in my changes I've seen changes in him. And quite frankly, I do still think he's reading my thread here...maybe not, I don't know.

I've given him chance after chance after chance... to grow up, to accept some responsibility. I've tried to be there for him... and now its just tough love time. I'm going to make these last few weeks the best I CAN MAKE THEM... so that I can walk away knowing I DID MY BEST, I TRIED MY HARDEST. I did everything I could. I am doing everything I can.

I don't want this marriage to be over. Walking away is going to destroy me... but staying in this the way that it is now is going to destroy me too... just a lot slower death, more painful death.

I just don't understand... he said he saw the light, he understood what he had done to me... he said he knew, he would change... its just so hard for me to accept that all of that was for selfish reasons, not because he wanted the relationship back and better...

So we'll go to VT. We'll see how that is. And then he has 2 weekends after that... then I'm going plan B.

RIM

Hi RIM,

I read through Rocky's summary and it got me to remember something you and I had discussed on occasion, but you still seem to dwell on.... EXPECTATIONS.

You will not or cannot change him and you're making yourself sick in trying to do so.

At this point I don't see the value of Plan A, maybe you should stick to the 180. If nothing else it will help with your own turmoil.

Now I have a very tough question...

Why? Have you asked yourself why lately? Why you are putting yourself through all of this anguish?

If the answer is that you truly love him then proceed, but I fear that you might have another reason... You don't think your good enough or worthy enough to find the love you seek, so you grad hold of the crumbs left behind by your H. Then there is possibility number three (You don't seem like the personality type) you cannot accept the breakdown of your M because it would be seen by yourself and others as a failure, which you do not know how to deal with.

Think very hard about these. You may be putting yourself through this torture for the wrong reasons.

Hey, don't ever think that we are not here for you. You have done what many will not and I for one admire your courage. Now it's time to show your H what we already know.

Time for a little more soul searching dear.

((((((((((((RIM))))))))))))))

I think guilt is the main reason I am still doing this, truthfully.... guilt over what I did. Because I took a situation that was bad... and made it much, much, much worse. And then when he did wake up and want to try to work on things... yeah, he made mistakes. But, I was totally unreceptive to working with him by that point... I was too far gone. And that is something I can't forgive myself for right now... that I didn't just have the balls to just give it one more shot and see if we could really fix it... I really didn't believe that he could change. I never gave him a chance. And that guilt eats me up inside. That guilt itself is enough to keep me trying. And even after I leave, that guilt is going to just CONSUME me. Because then I'm just LEAVING AGAIN. Running away instead of staying to FIX THINGS. Its just this time I don't have that chance to fix it WITH HIM-- and that's all I really want...

And truthfully, I don't love him right now. I love what he COULD BE... what I see in him, what I've seen glimpses of. If he could just put it all together... if we could both just put it all together, it would be great...

I know that I could "do better" than what I have right now. I'm not afraid of that. I am a little afraid of being "all alone"-- not in terms of not having a H or man around.... but in terms of really having NO ONE. I really don't have ANY close friends in the area, only acquaintances. And this is going to be really rough on me, and I don't really have ANYONE to lean on. Maybe that is why my dog is so important to me through this. She's really all I got. THAT scares me. Not having ANYONE. Sitting at home BORED OUT OF MY MIND... that scares me. But being without him, or starting over in a relationship sense... that doesn't scare me. I'm still relatively young, and I don't have any kids. That makes it easier to "start over" too.

I know I can't change him... and I'm slowly realizing I can't make him "wake up" and realize what he's doing to me or to himself either. He has to realize that on his own. I just don't know if he ever will. I'm starting to lose hope.

RIM

RIM,

I interpret what you just posted as saying...

I did wrong and deserve what I am getting right now, but he will be done soon and things will get better.

Am I close?

" did wrong and deserve what I am getting right now"--- yes, you are right...

"but he will be done soon and things will get better"--- this part is my hope... all I know is that I can't be "punished" forever. That at some point it has to get better... either because I stop accepting the punishment because I've paid my dues or because he stops.

I guess seeing BH like you... that are SO WILLING to just work on things, without being vengeful... and quite frankly, some of these FWS have been MORE "wayward" that I ever was... and yet, these people STILL want to work on their Ms... and are so happy to have their W back. He said all he wanted was for me to come home. I don't know what happened....

RIM

Post deleted by nesre

Post deleted by nesre

Ok lets look at that angle. Does he recongnize the reasons why you went wayward? Like the Harley's say, there are no excuses but there are always reasons. That's what I focus on, the reasons why. From there it will take work and time, but he he dosen't have this basic reilization then where do you start?

RIM you made a mistake, we all make them, please stop trying to atone for it all in one shot.

He needs to meet you half way, and until he
is ready to do so, you will not find the happiness you seek.

So the question is this... how long do you wait for him o grow up? He did all the right things to get you to come back home and now that he feels his trophy is secured, he can treat you like dirt. Is that what you want, need or deserve?

RIM, we are worried. I hope you g through with your plan b and that it be very dark.

Hi TT

How did your weekend go?

Just worried...