Unfortunately I live where abandonment does not apply. I have talked to a lawyer and mediator and was told the same thing. My best bet is to agree with the 50-50 and hang on to the house. I can carry that on my own.
I've been Mr. Mom for a long time now and that adjustment alone will be hard for her. She doesn't speak the language that my DDs get their homework in; I do all the cooking, laundry, tidying up.

I have a question for Mrs. W if that's ok? Was there an instant where you felt the fog lift? Or was it more of a slow process?

I just fell apart right now. I had the radio on and Hotel California came on. This is the first song we ever danced to. The tears are rolling down my face as I post his. I was doing so well for the last three days, no breakdowns, just focusing on the plan. Hearing that was just too much to handle. I hurt so much!!!

She didn't see to even notice that it came on, she just walked by as it started, I had to stop the song, I just couldn't handle it.

((((TMTS)))))

We are here for you, buddy. Hang strong!!!!!!!!!!

Coming out of the fog is a process.

Imagine this:

Plant some seeds. The more seeds you plant the better your chances are.

Seeds include: Plan A, information about adultery, requesting/demanding politely and calmly NO CONTACT, etc.

Hopefull the seeds germinate.

But you still don't have a blossoming tree. It takes several years to perhaps a lifetime to remove all the fog. There remains "recovered" posters on this very board that still can't see right from wrong...and CELEBRATE IT.

I can recall and have related previously particularly poignant moments in our recovery where you could almost see the fog lifting. Some of them were actually posts written by Mrs. W on this very forum. Another one was on a road trip she and I took to northern Michigan alone where we TOGETHER listened to His Needs/Her Needs on CD. That was merely 2.5 months into recovery. We paused the CD and discussed many subjects at great length. It was the moment my wife really recommited to our marriage and recovery. It was the moment she realized that she could love me again like she used to. Amoung other things I can't recall.

On another note...abandonment may not be a term used in your state but the fact she did it won't be ignored by the judge. If you are SURE you've got your daughter in your back pocket then why agree to anything absent a court order. The fact she voluntarily left without an agreement WILL be held against her. The fact she lives in a crappy practically unfurnished apartment WILL be held against her. YOU are in the drivers seat regarding custody unless you leave the marital home. Though it's always risky for men (and your attorney's advice reflects that) your kids will not be young that much longer and it's worth it to roll the dice to protect them as much as you can OR possibly instill enough consequences that your wife hits rock bottom and you get the chance to save your family.

Maybe verbally agree to 50-50 but just take more. Just don't force your 13 year old to visit and keep the other one home because 13 year old refuses to go. If she's out then she's really got no control.

Remember further...the IRS automatically gives the parent with 50% plus one day the tax deduction for that child unless you agree otherwise AND provide the proper form to the non-custodial parent (50%-one day). The IRS is concerned with where the child sleeps. Keep VERY accurate records and insure that you always get/take at least one day more than 50%.

Mr. Wondering

I'm better now that I let some of that out. I guess it had been brewing for the last couple of days, and the song just triggered it.

Resonance, Mr. and Mrs. W - Is ambivalence normal? My ODDs best friend said to me this morning that we sure do not act like people who are getting separated. This part is the hardest to take... I work the plan and she takes it all in like nothing had ever happened. She was sitting with me a little while ago and I was rubbing her leg. She gave no adverse reaction to it. This has been the routine for the last week. No reaction negative or positive.

After talking to lawyers we decided that it was best to use a mediator of which I found on Wednesday (My F's friend). He left messages for her on Thursday and called me on Friday to find out when she would call. She has yet to call him, and I have not suggested or pushed that she does.

TMTS,

I have sooooo been where you are right now. Don't beat yourself up about it. I think the worst part of dealing with this is the triggers. They are everywhere and you never know when they are going to get the best of you. What you are experiencing is completely normal. You are questioning everything you thought to be true about your life. This is your bodies way of releasing the stress you are under. If you keep these feelings all bottled up inside they will eat at your soul. Don't try to fight it let it out and move on. Once you regain control do something to change the subject. Playing with my boys always helped me the most when this happened to me. Why don't you go spend a little time with your kids. It will help keep you grounded. Hang in there....

Want2Stay

I would say she is taking it in, thinking hard and really starting to question herslef. The more you create the safe environment for her without expectations (stopping short of enabling her/breaking your boundaries, of course), the more she will hopefully come around. She is not actively pushing you away right now, and I think that is a good sign.

And know that we are in the stands cheering you on...

Go too much, Go too much, GO Go GO too much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your encouraging words. I just finished shoveling the driveway. We got a foot of snow, and it doesn't look like it's letting up. I do feel better.

My number one source of relief is posting here! Knowing that I can communicate with people that have gone or going through the same thing (From both sides) helps me allot.

I am pulling for the both of you as well!

Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!
I just finished a heated discussion with WW. It started when she asked me if it was ok to take the child tax credit money, I told no it wasn't because I considered it as household income. So she started up about her paycheck that she input two weeks ago, and I told her that she could have that back, but asked her about the $100.00 per week. She was balking at that now. She then talked about the new mortgage that she thought she we get a chunk of money out of, but she says she didn't know that I was going to drop the amount to just enough to cover consolidating our debts. Then is when she started spewing out fog babble and I must admit I let out a couple of DJ's (I lost focus for a bit there). We talked about custody, of where I told her that I was rethinking the shared custody deal, because I did not think that she could find a suitable place for her and the kids. That really got her going. She said that I had told her that if she wanted she could probably have force me to leave and get custody of the kids. She told me that I was doing a flip flop, so I answered but telling her that I'm just doing the same thing she has been doing for the last few months. (I know that was not good).Then she started up on relationship talk and I fell right into the trap! (Stupid, stupid, stupid) I wasn't meeting her emotional needs, and that I never wanted to show her the attention she wanted. I then told her that I have not felt that it was ever good enough when I did try. Then I asked her if she had really tried to get me to listen, all I had ever heard were demands, not talking. She said that she did think I would listen anyway so she didn’t push it any further. She then started up on how I thought that I wished for her to fall on her face, of which I told her that this was not true, and that I do worry about what will happen to her. I was honest and told her that I wish she finds happiness, but that she finds it in our home with me rather than outside.

I told her that I meant what I said in the letter I sent her, I understand much more and am looking forward to work things out. I also told her that my original offer still stood, that she could stay and work on our marriage, but she needed to do it without any contact. Then I told her that I do not want to have a custody battle, of which she said that she did not trust that anymore, I told her that we were even then because I had lost all trust for her. I apologized for flipping, and told her that my emotions got the best of me. She then left the room. (Not to happy).

I've just finished putting the nail in the coffin!

No body.....no coffin and no nails. But you will get a good lawyer to protect you and the children, right?

L.

I feel like I just undid everything I had acheived in that last week with just a 15 min coversation. I want to cry right now. I still need to work on my plan A, that's if she doesn't come back with her own plan FU.

I am in a complete panic now! I don't know what I can do other than give her space to calm down. I think of the conversation, and I come off as being completely nuts!

Any suggestions or advice on how to minimize the damage?

TMTS,

What does that have to do with it?

You Plan A with...___(Fill in the blank for me, will ya?_

The harder you press for instant resolution, the more you drive her away.

Meet her ENs...
Avoid LBs...
No _____(You know this one, right?)

Stop trying to change her mind and worry about changing yourself. I know it's hard. BTDT, got the scars to go with it.

You know what her answer is, so why ask? You know what she is thinking, so why ask? You know she is looking for a reason to leave, so why ask?

Get a lawyer to protect your rights.

Talk to Jennifer or Steve for direction.

Even if she leaves, it isn't over till you stop waiting for her to come home. That is what you have to remember. She has a good hand of cards, but you have all the chips. You can out last her if you can keep it together.

Or you can keep biting her lures and get jerked around flopping like a fish out of water.

Mark

And I was doing so well, that's what gets me. I loose focus for 30 seconds next thing you know I sound like I'm in a bigger fog than she is.

I've got more work to do!!!

I think she's realizing the money is not going to be there for her to move out and live comfortably and she wants to make it YOUR fault.

Your not doing the greatest job hiding behind the attorney's. Although you don't necessarily want to agree with the 50-50 split...you CAN string her along. When the pen meets the paper through the attorney/mediator is when you start becoming difficult and just delay the actual agreement.

Your not expected to handle every conversation perfectly. You are up against an adversary that will bend and twist anything you say to suit their objective...which is to fulfill their quota of rationalizations and justfication. This is why "negotiating" with a wayward is impossible. It will never be enough. In the end...she's gonna do what she's gonna do. For all you/we know...she's setting you up as we speak. Once she realizes moving out isn't feasible (and it NEVER was) she may just go to Plan B herself and pursue attempting to get you out. If she does that it's not your fault. You didn't blow anything. There is NO WAY you could have enabled the move out without giving up way too much and then she would have wanted MORE money anyway. She's bent on destroying you both and your kids financial security to pursue her selfish desires. Selfishness has no limits. For every pound of flesh you give her...she'll want two more.

This isn't your fault. IF she wants to leave the door is wide open for her to go and make it on her own. Visitation will be allowed by you as you're not a madman that wants to vengefully keep their kids from their mother. You want to protect them...but that's an argument for another day.

Stay calm. Don't be manipulated into a fight or anger. These are HER choices and any consequences for her choices should fall upon her. Don't accept the blame but don't defend yourself to someone that can't hear you. That's where reverse babble comes in. Insert things indicated you are brainstorming this "move out" idea like: well, maybe we can both work our butts off, get second jobs, pay off our marital debts and separate in 6 months when it's really feasible". Combat irrationality with practicality.


I don't know...I'm rambling. I did advise you to retain and speak with an attorney before pressing this issue with her. You must guard your legal strategies from her. Nothing was in writing in front of you tonight so there was no reason to discuss the custody issue.

I understand how maddening this all is. Been there, done that. Just calm down and relax. You stood up for yourself a bit which is not typically something you will regret 6 months or 3 years from now. No ONE conversation is going to ruin anything.

Mr. Wondering

Stop.

Breathe.

Wait for the storm to calm a bit.

Apologize for being a jerk, but add that you are tired of her playing you. (After things calm down a bit...)Do NOT escalate it or let her escalate it into a shouting match. Do NOT argue, walk away without having to win. You don't have to win the argument...

Do not storm off and slam doors, shouting over your shoulder as you go, just walk away.

You can make this last as long as you want. When you are ready to end it, make it swift and serious. But don't let her lure you into discussions of custody and divorce settlement until you are finished.

Plan things (fun things) with the kids and do them. Invite her to come along. Do them without her and tell her how much fun you had (be sure the kids are having fun so they can tell her too) and let her know she was missed and will be welcome the next time. Then do something else, with the kids or with friends. Invite her along. If she doesn't go, you go without her.

Repeat as much as possible through the holidays. Continue till she moves out.

Do not help her move out. Don't pay for it, don't move things, don't let her take the furiture or much of anything you need to run the house. Don't make it easy for her to go.

Make it easier to stay...

Do this by...
You know the steps...
1)
2)
3)

Make her time with you the best time of her day...the best time of her week...the best time of her life...

This is how you will win her back, not by outmaneuvering her in an intellectual debate.

Mark

Try to take comfort in the awesome advice you are getting from these guys.

I'm sorry you had a bad evening. As I've said b4, try not to look at every slip as your demise. Get right back up and try again. You are only human, and I cannot imagine how you must feel....

All you need to do right now is stay as calm and collected as possible, and know that you can count on the people here to help you through. They can be your rocks right now. They are experts...what better players could you have on your team!!

Thanks to all,

I've calmed down (and so has my WW). I apologized for being a jerk, and she answered... "I can't blame you for wanting to see me fail" this time I just said.... nothing.
She actually let me give her a hug.

Mark - Why you haven't given me multiple 2x4's by now I don't know, but thanks for your continued efforts to try to pound it into me.

Mr.W - I think this made her think a little, so standing up for myself may not have been as bad as I thought. (That's how my M dealt with it when my F became a WW; she just worried about doing what was best for us kids and herself). No legal talk unless it’s in front of a lawyer/mediator.

Lala, W2S - thanks for the cheers.

You are all inspiring to me and give me hope that the fog can lift and things can work out.

If you get another shot at this, tell her you don't want to see her fail and that's why you are fighting so hard to keep your family together. (Make it about the family rather than you and her.) You want her to be happy, healthy and successful ...and your wife.

Mark

Point taken Mark. When I told her this she responded by telling me that I though she was stupid, of which I replied that this also was not the case. So when she brought it up again I figured my best bet was to clam up. That being said, I’ll keep this in my back pocket should it come back up.

I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn't stop thinking about her, and the pain she caused. Then I pictured us at our wedding and started crying again. I can deal with the affair; it's the leaving that is very difficult to take.