I had a talk with my ODD and explained the plan a little bit more in detail and told her of some of the things mommy might be going through. She came back to me with the best thing I probably needed to hear.

"Mommy won't come back if she misses me, she going to see me every other week, she'll only come back if she misses you"

My 13 year old gets it, why is it taking me so long?

That may have been the 2x4 I needed all along.

WOW! Out of the mouths of babes, huh!

It will be back and forth and back and forth. Hold your guns, keep doing exactly what you did tonight. You did WONDERFUL! This is the guy she knows she'll be lost without if she leaves. Make sure she always know you want her to stay...that she hasn't left yet and you want her to stay. None of this has to happen, etc. Do this in those moments of her anger, rather than getting down in the mudpit and wrestling the alien.

I think (besides the outright stubborness) that the feeling of "well, I've made my bed, so I have to leave" just gets the better of us waywards sometimes. Even if it completely defies logic, financial or otherwise.

I would get on the reverse babble thread and MEMORIZE it. So much of what she is saying is right out of the book. It shouldn't be difficult to build a whole set of responses to what you know has been said a million times by a million people. If you are prepared for it, it will just come out with almost no effort on your part. Not to mention those priceless blank wayward stares I've heard so much about (but of course never did myself-HA). It will make you feel stronger, more able to deal with it and let it go in one ear and out the other. Pretty soon she'll realize that you're not going to be baited, and (hopefully) it will stop. Along with the talk about leaving.

Hope this helps!

Mark thanks, I am getting better at just shutting my trap. Allot of what I'm talking about is my thought process. I'm starting to give some reverse babble back, but it's still very rudimentary... babble babble babble... me too. Since I've talk to JHC I, managed to stay away from the trying to educate her or talk her out of things. If she brings something up and asks me a question I let her know how I'm feeling then stop. The whole blaming me bit was part of the argument with her ODD.
As far as time goes she seems to be looking company herself. She’ll come sit beside me one the couch, she’ll hang out in the kitchen and chat while I cook supper. I keep it light and fun, just chatting about the day, news, how the kids are driving us crazy like kids do, but except for Sunday night I’ve been avoiding the R talk and not shooting any LB's. All this being said thanks for the whack; it helps keep me in line.

Mr.W - thanks for the warning, I talked a little bit more in detail about what her M is going through and asked her if she had any questions about anything she said. She a smart kid... she answered, " Oh, she told me that she lost her feelings for you... yada, yada, yada, and that you ignored her." I asked her if she thought I ignored her, of which she asked me if I was crazy because I was here daily. I did explain that during the last couple of years I had been smoking Pot pretty much daily (Quit cold turkey March 7, 07)and would sit at the computer while M watched TV, which meant looking at the back of my head, so from her perspective, she could have felt ignored. I also will keep an eye on the becoming friends instead of a parent. I’ve always been more of the disciplinarian, but on the other hand I’ve also been the fun one, so long as she doesn’t try to buy their love I should be ok… but I understand I will need to manage it. From my point of view, this will only work for a certain time. By the time I was 15 I was able to see right through my F if he tried to do something similar, so she needs to be careful as well.

She is very mad at her mother and does not accept the rational for leaving. I have had many talks with her about talking to me about her feelings and not do like I did and bottle them up for 25 years. This is something I will need to keep on top of because she has a very similar character to mine.

Lala - I've been studying orchid's reverse babble, but it has yet to become automatic. At least I'm thinking in terms of reversing it so that's a positive step. She is well aware of my feelings and intentions, and I have reminded her once or twice (didn't want it to sound like a broken record, usually after she's baited me and we end up apologizing to each other, I will reminder her that I do not want her to leave). That reminds me... Mark I did use the "give it 6 moths NC and see how you fell then" last night, and yes I got the blank stare that slowly went to the floor. I woulda made you proud o master.

She can't say it or admit it, even to herself, but that made it through the fog. Don't expect everything to be perfect by lunch time, but you just know when something has gotten through. That caught staring look is the dead give away.

Don't pull that one out again right away. Let it sink in. You don't need to give her a chance to refute the logic with more babble.

I think you're doing pretty well these days. Just stay positive.

And I am no master, just a lowly student who was lost and confused when he got here.

Mark

tmts,

The RB takes practice. Me, I practiced in front of the bathroom mirror. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Remember the objective is to give the WS back their guilt. Has t/b short and swift. It's ok to RB then walk away. Most WS' are slow to react, so don't stand around and wait for it to hit.

The purpose is so you as the BS don't have to shoulder that guilt and take the abuse. It will help you move forward so the WS can see the gap widening and give your real spouse a path to return. If you hang around at the level of the WS, there is no motivation for her to change.

L.

I'd like comments about giving her a letter which I've started to write and will post for comment before I give it to her. I was Wondering if I should give it to her at the same time has her X-mas gift or not?

I've been keeping tabs on some things she says she needs or wants (Her favorite perfume, (she's almost out) new makeup brushes, a stone plaque with a cat on it, and a big warm fleece nightgown). I figured to stay with something a little more personal over extravagant.

I would give her the letter before you give her the gift and go to the IL for Christmas dinner. She might need you there for support! I dont advise her going to the folks for dinner, it could turn out too stressfull for everyone. I know this on a personal level. Add me to your address book, or call me at the store im here till 2 today.
Mucho love! M.

Hi M,

I've set up X-mas dinner, so I'm good there. I'm thinking of leaving the letter for her before I leave on Saturday.
She is coming on Monday (don't know why, she's not working on the weekend) The only reason I can think of is that she does not want to deal with her M and more than necessary. I wonder about my FI??? I have not heard about any comments from his side, but knowing him he may be keeping it all inside and it may come out when she visits.

Love Ya. Give the boys hugs for me...including D.

I'm trying to think of a good RB for the following line.
"I feel like we are best friends, best friends with benefits"
There is truth to her statement in the fact that our SF has always been good, and had got better and better though the years and we have been best friends for all this time as well. We have always got along great and she will admit herself that she has a good time when we go out together, we are very comfortable around each other.

Any advice???

Thanks

Alright, here it is. If anyone could let me know if this would not be a good idea under Plan A, I would very much appreciate it. Please feel free to 2x4 me if you see anything that may be taken out of context or just be plain stupid.

My dearest WS,

My heart aches to feel your love once again. I see your smile and feel my soul come to life. A glow of happiness fills me when we talk and there is nothing more sweet and caring than hearing words coming from you. I have always felt that you are the only person to make me experience what being happy and content is all about. Your eyes and your little pout still make me melt inside to this day. You are the person I want to grow old with, the person I would do anything for, the person I love most in this or any universe. My being is complete when you are there and it leaves me empty to think of a day where I cannot show you my love.

Decisions you have made have hurt deeply but I respect that you are making the best choice you could for your happiness. Always know that my heart has and will have the biggest part of it reserved for you. Should you one day think that there may be a chance to rekindle the love you once had for me, the door to my heart will always be open. I commit to you that should this day come I will look to the future and not dwell in the past. I will also ensure that will protect you from any negative reactions from those how may not believe in our future together.

The future can be bright and I want us to be the light that shines that path back to happiness together.

With all the love in my soul.

BS.


Thanks to all!!!

TMTS- This is a very beautiful letter! Any woman (or man) would be happy to receive it. Since you asked for advice, though, here are the things I thing may need a little revising.

First paragraph is great! Then you start the second paragraph with one of the things that used to trigger me, because I heard it over and over...(I may get some slack for this, this is just IMHO, and remember I am new at this, too...)

"Decisions you have made have hurt deeply.." When I hear that, even with all I've learned, there's that little monster inside that goes AAAARRRRG (even though the statement is TRUE and COMPLETELY ACCURATE). It is not what you want to accomplish here. This is about giving her your heart, not pointing out what she did wrong...does this make sense? Vets-am I way too foggy for this...?

The second thing I think I'm pretty confident about...


This is not really a true statement. I don't mean to sound harsh when I say that, but, if things don't work out between you for some reason, believe me, you will move on, recover, and love again. It may take a long time...but eventually you would. So, to just leave yourself open to a lifetime of pining for someone that you have parted ways with is kinda unrealistic, ya know? It speaks to the hopeless romantic in me, but it also doesn't (and remember IMO) portray your VALUE. Keep in mind that it would take just a slight revision...even just taking out the words "one day" and "always" it would make it better. Maybe something like: "you still have all of my heart and if there is a chance that we can rekindle the love we once had, I think we should try..."

Gotta put the youngins to bed, so I'll check back in a bit...

TMTS,

I'm not an expert on this kind of thing, but I would wait until a few of the vets weigh in on it.

I'm not saying it isn't good, I just don't think I am the expert and I'd rather see you err on the side of caution until other can advise.

Mark

I think you are wasting your time sending her the letter. Most wives would appreciate it, but a WW won't.

Hi believer, the only reason I am even considering this is because the last one I wrote (About two weeks ago) she kept and stored. If that is good or not I'm not sure (I saw the WW alien last night). Also she has yet to find a place to stay (As far as she has told me). So I was to leave it on her pillow.

Do you think that makes any difference?

Mark - Be careful man!!!

Lala, thanks for your input.

Does this look better....?

My dearest WS,

My heart aches to feel your love once again. I see your smile and feel my soul come to life. A glow of happiness fills me when we talk and there is nothing more sweet and caring than hearing words coming from you. I have always felt that you are the only person to make me experience what being happy and content is all about. Your eyes and your little pout still make me melt inside to this day. You are the person I want to grow old with, the person I would do anything for, the person I love most in this or any universe. My being is complete when you are there and it leaves me empty to think of a day where I cannot show you my love.

You still have all of my heart and if there is a chance that we can rekindle the love we once had, I will be willing to try for the foreseeable future. I commit to you that should this day come I will look to the future and not dwell in the past. I will also ensure that will protect you from any negative reactions from those how may not believe in our future together.

The future can be bright and I want us to be the light that shines that path back to happiness together.

With all the love in my soul.
BS

I'm not sure of this line vs. what you suggested.

"I will be willing to try for the foreseeable future."

Thanks for all your help with this... unless of course some of the vets. suggest I don't waist my time.

On another note - tonight has gone off with no drama and so major plan A action. Made her one of her favorite dishes (Chicken marinara with Italian style roasted potatoes). Her voice was sounding rasp so I asked if she was staring to get a cold, she confirmed that she was feeling congested, I got her some Nyquil and set up the vaporized in her bedroom. Watched a little TV together, chatted about our day. Very nice, you'd almost think she likes me. And no Mark, I won't go mess it up, she's in the shower right now and is going straight to bed.

Believer - Please let me know if you still think I'm wasting my time. The last letter was suggested by JHC because she set me straight on a focus Plan A.

Thanks to all!!!

TMTS...

I wouldn't give her the letter to be perfectly blunt...Sadly, sickly, wrongly it will only be seen as needy and weak by her at this point...Further, there really will NOT always be a place in your heart for her if she continues down the wayward path...At some point that door will close and really your letter almost gives her license to cake eat by telling her otherwise...See I'm a firm believer that waywards need to be disabused of the notion that if they choose to walk away from the marriage that you will remain friends...UM, NO WAY JOSE!!! They need to KNOW that you will NOT meet any of their needs and that that part of their history will effectively be GONE (which btw was one of the things that got through to me in my fog-Mr. W said to me essentially that no one will have known you "when"-that made me think-that made me very sad-there would be NO ONE that shared all those special moments with me-our engagement, our wedding day, our honeymoon, no one else coached me through labor...no one else was there the day our dd walked for the first time, said her first words, no more private jokes or knowing glances...well you get the picture)...Remember there is a carrot and a stick to Plan A...And yes, in Plan A you DO let waywards know that their actions ARE hurting you...They do not get the luxury of believing that everyone and everything is gonna be A-Okay no matter what they do...Life does NOT work like that...You can still give her carrot by meeting the needs that she will allow you to meet...You can still tell her that you are WILLING to meet the ones that she isn't letting you currently meet...And you can do this all the while letting her know matter of factly that her wayward actions hurt you and that if she chooses to walk you will choose the same...for good...You are her HUSBAND, NOT her "buddy"...Choices have consequences...do not shield her from her consequences...

Mrs. W

Edited because I called you "Try"...Sorry 'bout that!

I'm with believer and MrsW.

It's a great loveletter, but wayward spouses are strange creatures. There's a good chance you will get just as great an effect from reading it to the nearest fire hydrant.

She's right. Of course. As usual <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What you did tonight, though, was really sweet. I hope she appreciates it. DH did stuff like that for me all the time. When he did it made me think...really made me think.

TMTS...

Seriously, DO NOT GIVE HER THAT LETTER...It basically tells her that everything she has done and is doing is just fine...And to top it off you actually tell her that you will shield her from consequences...Nah Uh...The "A" in Plan A does NOT stand for "appeasement" and/or "[censored] kissing"...No sniveling or groveling...Got it?

Think about it this way...Did you ever break up with a girl? What if you received a letter like that from her? Would it have changed your mind or would you probably have rolled your eyes? Now on the other hand, if she played it cool but still was nice to you-told you some jokes-brought you a soft drink when she got one for herself-bought tickets to a sporting event that you REALLY wanted to go to and invited you...But basically continued with her life and even made herself more attractive by say working out or buying some new sexy clothes or whatever...Now that just might have made you think twice, huh? Well that is sorta where you are right now...Think about it from that standpoint and see if you get it a little better...

Mrs. W

Ok, it's starting to sound like the vets are not in favor.

I did not thing of the weak aspect of it. The letter that JHC helped me with had a very specific purpose to tell her that the changes do to Plan A was not because I was loosing my mind. At the same time expressing that I want to work things out.
This one will make me look needy, not wanty (Like that I'm inventing my own words...just tell people it's Canadian. LOL)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Lala.

Mark - She did give me a chance to mess things up tonight.... She came downstairs, and I asked her if she was feeling better. I got up and went over to her and rubber her back. She said that the Nyquil was starting to take effect and that the shower did help to clear her up. She asked me if I had put the vaporizer in the room for her, I acted all cool and said that it's very dry so I hopped it would help her sleep better. She said good night and I reached out to give her a hug, and she kissed me.

Now Mrs. Wondering, you really have thrown me a curve ball here. This is the sense that I have been getting from her, that we will still be good friends. I need to review the stick part of the plan; I'm handling the carrot part ok, bit need to work on the stick part.

The only part that I have worked the stick ok is with the financials and not discussing anything that has to do with her moving out.

I am sitting here with a tear of joy in my eye! I don't think I could have made it this far without all your support. Weather my M works out or not I will Always (This one I mean) appreciate the support and love shown here.

Thank you all very much!!!