Woahhhhh, hold your horses here.

Youi and I can both see some pretty bad outcomes to this A...1. She gets used for a while and disenchanted with OM (and hopefully all OM's) 2. She gets burned early and will sit and lick her wounds and fall fast into a very bad place...

Yes, you want to protect her from this, keep her from moving out, help her see the error of her ways, but what you are proposing to do is soften her fall, and therefore rob her of a very hard lesson.

If you continue down the path of trying to orchestrate this scenario, that you have NOTHING to do with, this will backfire in your face, and you will be the bad guy after everything shakes out...

Right now, you need to be a specator in these choices WW has made.

Please, please, please stop trying to control the outcome of THEIR R, this will only end up badly for you...and could very likely draw them closer...

My suggestion? You have said what is going to happen, you can follow through with what you have said, and let things fall where they may...start concentrating on you! Yes, follow a good Plan A, which DOESN'T include coordinating any OM or WW actions...

If you soften this blow for her she may not learn a valuable lesson from this...please allow her the respect and honor to make her own mistakes...

You know there is no way in he11 she is going to agree to this?
The very LAST LAST LAST thing a WW wants is to get the guys together. She will absolutely NOT participate in a 3 way call with OM and BH.

She has lied to you.
She has lied to him.
He is lying to her.
The last thing in the world she wants is exposure of all these lies.

If OM has lied to her, she does not want YOU of all people as a witness to her humiliation....

This kind of intel is best delivered by another person.
You should just NOT be involved in this.

Because she is only going to believe that you are only doing this to further your own agenda. It smacks of desperation and neediness. You're trying to control the outcome.

Let me interject something here, if you don't mind.

If you approach your wife with this idea and she says "No" what have you lost? Maybe not much, and I could see that as being the case.

If you approach her about this idea and she says sure and OM fesses up, you're the hero and she might actually decide to stay home.

Here's where I have an issue with it...

The probability of WW agreeing is not all that good, but the probability of OM admitting the lie on a 3 way call with you is almost too small to calculate. And if he denies what he has already admitted to the neighbor and says it was just his way of blowing off someone who he thought was coming on to him...Well, I'm afraid that in this scenario, you would not be seen as the white knight, but the arch villain instead.

This is like deciding to fight this big burly guy in a bar and hitting him across the face with a chair, stepping back and realizing he didn't go down and knowing you are in trouble as he spits two teeth onto the floor and smiles to show you here they came from...

So if you want to fight Bubba in a fair and square fight and see if you can come out on top, feel free to pursue this idea further. But if Bubba tells your wife the truth, I would be extremely surprised, since he's already had that chance and weenered out on that.

If you really think a lying cheater like pos Bubba is going to tell the truth, the have a ball. But if it don't go like you thought it should, the damage will be immense, since now YOU have become the liar in her eyes.

After finally getting to tell her how you felt and getting it all off your chest last night it tends to make you feel invincible, but are you really? Things went pretty good for you last night, much better than I expected, but do you want to apply the same solution to the next level or look for alternate solutions first. If you get it just right you win, fight is over and she falls into your arms.

But if you don't get it just right and he says something like "I just told the b*itch that to get her off my back. I thought she was trying to seduce me and wanted to be true to my real love,<inseert your wife's name here>.

Might go one way...


Might go the other way...

The question to ask is the possible victory worth the possible defeat. We aren't talking about Plan A or Plan B or ENs or any of that stuff here, just plain old gut instincts. The victory would be oh, so sweet...But what would you do if you lost?

You've been in counter attack mode and last night you attempted a break-out that succeeded and gained ground. Now you have to decide if pursuing the enemy with what you have on the ground is the winning strategy or if you need to regroup and be sure of the numbers before sticking your best out into enemy territory and ending up letting them die because the enemy countered your incursion...and cut off your ability to help them.

If you want to make his life ****** and keep him away from WW another day, wait till Saturday morning and announce that you have decided to help her move some stuff after all. Tell her that since she is determined to go this way, you are willing to help her simply because you love her and want to make it less stressful for her.

If she RUNS for the phone or gets all in a tizzy, she already has OM scheduled to be at the new place. If she looks forlorn, she knows she has been busted at it, and if she throws her arms around your neck and gives you a hug, just say "you're welcome" and grab a box.

But if you're gonna try to leverage her again by making that three way call, be ready for it to go very bad very fast.

You might pull it off and win...

But it isn't a bet I'd be willing to make.

The worst that can happen is that she can say yes and then he turns the tables on you and becomes her hero after proving that you are a lying weenie. All he has to so is lie to her, which you already know he does...Almost by definition, he is a liar.

By the end of the day you should have enough to get a cup of coffee.

Mark

I've been trying to get this posted for 20 minutes and just have no patience for when things run this slow.

SHMI & Lexxxy,

I couldn't disagree more with your positions. TMTS has been floundering following advice like you are proposing.

I really don't think you understand the dynamics of what is occurring:

1. This is not a LTA where there are joint feelings. This is a WW and a PLAYER OM ... she has made bad choices and then developed feelings to justify her choices ... he is just out for what he can get and has already moved on to another.

2. Through her indecision and cake-eating, and TMTS's stellar Plan A, WW has nearly bankrupted TMTS's LB, and he is nearing Plan FU if she moves out.

3. TMTS's position only improves when he acts ... his strength, confidence and great Plan A are VERY attractive to his WW ... this just makes a direct comparison to OM visible to WW's wayward mind.

4. WW still has love for TMTS ... she made a bad choice within a stale M ... and is reluctant to believe that the new and improved TMTS is for real, even though she wants to believe.

If you think this is letting her down easy ... think again ... once reality slaps her in the face, her remorse and self loathing over her stupidity will be nearly incapacitating, and she will be forced to relive those mistakes every time she looks at TMTS and sees the new and improved H, that she always wanted, hurt to the core over her horrible choice to pursue a world-class LOSER.

... and if you think that I have no idea what I'm talking about and that this will NEVER work, then all I can say is that I'm speaking as the "voice of experience", because this is exactly the situation I found myself in with the same type OM, and exactly how I handled it, and it is exactly how my FWW responded. There is nothing that I'm suggesting to TMTS that I haven't done myself with much more success than many of the BH's that are still here.

The only difference is that TMTS followed advice like you are suggesting, which prolonged the A, and nearly got him to the point of no return before he decided to act. Maybe it took him getting to this point of "nothing left to lose", or maybe this could have all been addressed 60 days ago and he would already be in recovery now.

It's simply a matter of playing to and emphasizing TMTS's strengths and exposing the OM's obvious weaknesses. After that ... as long as there is still love between TMTS and WW, the rest will take care of itself with some marital boundaries put in place to continue to set the bar high for WW.

Baseball analogy...

Bottom of ninth, bases loaded, down by one and they have their closer on the mound. You dig in and he throws you a 99 MPH fast ball that just misses the plate, which is good, cause you didn't see it. The next is a strike and then he misses with two breaking balls. So it's 3-1 and the game is on the line. You know his best pitch is the fast ball and you are waiting. The question to ask is when do I commit to swinging at the pitch? To hit a 99 mph pitch, you have to begin to swing before he lets it go, but if it's a breaking ball or a sinker, all you will do is pop it up or hit a grounder at the middle infield.

What you have to decide is if you can wait one more pitch, since the count is on your side and even a walk ties the game, but an out means you will lose and there will be no further chances to get even.

Swing?

Or take a strike?

That is the burning question of the day.

The strike out pitch for most guys who live by the heater is the high fast ball out of the zone and up around the eyes. The batter sees that pitch better than any other...He can't hit it, but he can see it really well.

You see an opportunity to win the game with one swing. It's right there. But can you knock it out of the park? Or should you let this one go and maybe get another at bat?

Acting in desperation can be a real mistake.

Her leaving and moving out may be the best thing in the long run for the outcome of your marriage, it may not, tough to say.

Many marriages that have recovered on this site have gone through a separation. Some have recovered after D even.

Just because she moves out does not mean this is the end...
and in your desparation are you willing to take actions that will actually be detrimental to your marriage?

Sometimes the best action is to allow the WS to come to their own decisions without your pushing/nudging/controlling the situation.

Would you rather she come home because she feels forced to and desperate or come home because she wants to..........

I wasn't suggesting he not take action...just not the action that was being discussed.

IMO, TMTS is NOT the one to be delivering the OM-IS-EVIL messages...because he loses credibility. C'mon, really, what else is he gonna say?

TMTS needs to stand on his good qualities and let OTHERS deliver the OM-IS-EVIL message to WW.

I agree regarding the three-way phone call. However, I still think he should tell his wife first thing Saturday morning-I've decided to help you move! Or, just show up there unexpectedly and kick the OM to the curb. This will show his W what a worm she is dealing with and also how willing TMTS is to stand up for his family, and ALSO puts the final nail in the OM's player plan. If I were TMTS, I would just walk in and say..."OH, is this the guy? Hey buddy, let me ask you-how would your live-in GF feel about you being here with my wife? Since I know where you live (he won't know that he's bluffing), why don't we head over there right now and let her know...." Then they can watch him slither away with his tail between his legs (of course, snakes don't have tails, do they?).

TMTS can then turn to his W and give her a BIG smile and say-ya know, I should really get back to the girls (DDs). Have fun!

Feels so good to state your position. Testosterone flows again. Beating your chest can let everyone know how you feel as you let out your roar!

Not suggesting inaction either. Just suggesting measured and well planned action rather than reaction to what looks like a golden opportunity.

The information currently available suggests a better than ever chance at recovery...

But that same information does not suggest changing the plan, outlined by Jennifer and showing results so far in an effort to force her hand.

Talk about disrespect and how much it hurts and all the rest, the bottom line is that Plan A is designed to make her think of TMTS as the best option and come to that realization on her own. The hardest part of Plan A is always the same. It is keeping your Taker under lock and key.


You can go all in and call his bluff, but if he calls, what do you do next? Then it comes down to the cards. You have the winning hand TMTS, but you have to wait to play them. If you throw down now, he's still in the game anyway until the hand plays out.

And the most important part of this whole equation is whether or not weener boy will do the right thing when confronted...What do you think the odds of that are based on what you know of him so far? Has he acted in an honorable way and done the right thing thus far? Has he been honest with your WW to this point? Has he showed any regard at all for how you feel?

You want to take a shot, be my guest, but be sure you understand that it might mean that she will no longer see you as her knight in shining armor and will see him as that instead. If he doesn't do what you expect (notice the word I used there), what will it do to you, to your W and to your chances at reconciling with your wife?

In this case, if you simply let her move and see if he tells her he has another GF, it will yank the rug out from under her fantasy and give you an opportunity to rescue her. Even if he doesn't do that and continues to string her along, she will eventually face reality and you might stand a chance then. But if you are going to lead trump, it has to be big and all you have I'm afraid is the "Left" and unprotected at that...

We're getting closer to that coffee, but the cigar is still a long way off...

Well one thing at a time... right now she has accepted my date proposal, I and I have a reservation for 7PM at the most romantic restaurant in town.

I am still trying to get in touch with the neighbor to find out if she has saved her IM conversation. That would be the best scenario. As far as confronting, I think I would pull of a Tyk and beat the crap out of him, so a face to face is not a good idea. I did find the POS on facebook and could send him a message, but tell him what. Like Mark says he has done nothing honorable as of yet so why would he start now. The 3 way call will be an issue because she can never get a hold of him. It’s always leave a message and he'll call back. What if I sent the message of "see you Saturday" just to see if he scares off? That might just be enough for him to say look I don't need this and provoke the call.

Please give me your opinions on this one. Mark is right in the testosterone pumping. I've been doing everything in a well timed manner. So I don't want to go mess it up by jumping in his face when he can make me look real stupid.

TMTS,

You asked for my input yesterday, and I offered it to you with reservations, due to the underlying belief that you were more inclined to follow the lead of the more conservative posters in the end.

At this point, I will continue to follow your story, but will bow out of this thread other than to express my continuing support.

I am a huge fan of MB, especially its ability to give couples the necessary language to discuss issues that are often misunderstood between the sexes, but the program is not without its flaws, and one of those is the way it coaches BH to interact with their WW's from a position of weakness, which is VERY unattractive to most WWs. I think it also helps explain why so many MB veteran BH's claim recovery, but at a level that many Hs would find unacceptable.

It is my opinion that there are significant differences between BHs and BWs, and the failure of the program to seriously address and stress those differences leads to those "less than fulfilling" "recovered" marriages for BHs.

TMTS, I truly wish you much better luck than I've witnessed for most BHs since my arrival here at MB.

MyRev, Thanks for your support and your posts. I respect your POV and decision to bow out. I just hope that I don't give you the oportunity to say "I told you so" in a year from now.

You won't hear that from me ... this is your life and you need to be comfortable with the choices you make for yourself.

I may disagree with that choice, and/or would have done it differently myself, but that doesn't make either of us wrong ... just different.

Good Luck!!!

There is a time to act and a time to be still.

Being still is NOT being weak, far from it. It is being strong in the face of adversity when your kneejerk response would be one of anger, vengeance, and desperation.

Your job is to work on the marriage and NOT to work on the A.

This bears repeating...

Your job is to work on the marriage and NOT to work on the A.

One you have control over and the other you have absolutely no control over.

You control the marriage by controlling YOUR part in it, by being the best H you can be, hence the Plan A.

You have ABSOLUTELY No control over the A, you can't do anything, you can't affect any outcome, you can't MAKE your WW think or feel any way. The A has to die a NATURAL death. There are things to do to help that along...exposure, family and friends getting involved and talking with her, but as far as YOU getting involved, this will frustrate you. Be there for her to pick up the pieces...that's it...

In the past we have talked about setting up our lawn chairs with the bag of popcorn. I have never heard a BH talk this way though...you want to save her, protect her.

To use another analogy, she is like an addict and OM is like her dealer...sure you can tell her the dealer is a liar, cheater, stealer but will that keep her from craving the drug? What will open her eyes in the fog? Who knows, but she will have to find it on her own. You can be the bright shining beacon calling out to her.

WOW, such condescension ... one thing I learned a long time ago, when I see someone basing their beliefs/actions on such "absolutes", especially when dealing with a myriad of different personalities and situations, it is best to "discount" the message.

Considering the case at hand, plus my very own situation, you may be correct that a BH can't "make" a WW feel some way, but to say a BH can't have an affect on the A is simply incorrect. You just have to look for the soft spot and apply pressure to the weakest link ... the OM.

IMO, by viewing the MB model as "one size fits all", you have missed the most important fact in this particular instance ... THE OM HAS NO FEELINGS FOR TMTS'S WW ... he's a PLAYER that has already moved on, and is simply cake-eating by stringing along TMTS's WW keeping his options open, while living with his new GF.

By applying direct pressure to the OM, you simply make "the juice not worth the squeeze" for this loser and he goes away on his own. I think it is unrealistic in most cases to think that looking the other way while your WW carries on a A with an OM, will be viewed as anything but weak and unattractive by a WW, should she choose to come back to the M later.

TMTS, sorry for jumping back in so soon, but I wanted to clarify what was apparently being misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Wow, this is sure interesting. Confused yet TMTS....cause I am!!

From my newbie perspective, here is what my gut tells me:

- I tend to agree with the belief that the A needs to die it's own death. I think if you drag your WW back kicking and screaming into your M and rub her nose in it....it will make for a very difficult recovery. I'm not saying that's what you'd be doing to her, but I think SHE might feel that way. I think she needs to learn on her own, then she can deal with it....it's not YOU solving HER problems.

- On the other hand, I think each situation can be a little unique. Although I've learned that most A's are typical....I think how they end can vary. I think it depends on the OM. If he is an obvious slimeball with alterior motives beyond your WW....then I think it helps to shed more light on him. But, some OM are mister dreamy to your WW and the more you try to paint him to be a jerk, I think the more damage it does to YOU (at least in your foggy WW's mind).

TMTS, it appears to me that the OM for you is the kind that can use a lot of exposure. I think you've done that pretty well. I wouldn't be against doing a little more as MyRev suggests....and maybe your neighbor can help in that fight. But, I think ultimately you can put some more nails in the coffin, but your WW will have to be the one to BURY him.....you can't do that for her.

You're all over plan A right now, meeting EN's, getting her out tonight is HUGE. You've already got your WW set up to come out of this on her own. Don't go over the top with confrontation.

As a HUGE baseball fan, I say take the 3-1 pitch with the bases loaded and put the pressure back on the pitcher (OM). If you get too agressive, you might pop up that 3-1 ptich. But, even if he delivers a strike on 3-1, he still has the pressure of making a 3-2 pitch with the game on the line and now the runners are all running. Keep the pressure on HIM to deliver. My guess is he'll bounce it in the dirt.

BTW....we're doing great at saving up for coffee.....but I wouldn't worry about saving for a cigar........TMTS will buy once he wins this fight!

Been busy at work - lots of action on this thread. Havent had a chance to read it all. On a side note - may have to go to your neck of the woods on a business trip in a cpl of weeks.

Anyway - good job on getting a date.

Agree with Mark's take that a 3way call would be not a good idea. The temptation for a Plan FU during the call is not worth considering.

Wanted to discuss the idea of being around during her move. I say you need to be there - not necessarily to confront OM. But to interfere in the A and crowd the OM. Once she is separated - those chances will be rare unless you go on more dates.

See this player is a predator OM - he just wants to sleep around - there is no love for your wife.

I just believe that you should hinder the affair as much as you can while Plan A your wife.

Be strong - this will be an emotional time. Now that I dwell on the negative - I think you have one of the best chances of turning this around than we have seen here in a long time. I also think your WW could lose the best thing she will ever find - her husband and a united family.

I have seen advice of going in Plan B right away. But your plan should be to wait for PLan B at least 2 - 4 weeks after the move. Also Valentines Day is a Plan A date opportunity - take full advantage of it and make sure you crowd out any OMs for that day.

Here is a personal revelation of Valentine Day:

In the past I never gave much credence to Valentine's Day. I always said the day was manufactured by the candy and flower industry to move sales after Christmas - still true. One day my wife told me that one of her customers at the bar she works at said I was a schmuck for my thinking. He was right.

Little did I know at the time that this was the predator OM would was trying to bed my wife and of course I went thru 2 yrs of ******. As a result and in the last 2 years - I put VDAY right there with our anniversary and any other holiday. So it proved I am not a total dummy since I learned quickly

I've been thinking. If you remember, yesterday or the day b4, I said you should just let him help her move in and give her the bad news. I'm kinda going back to that line of thought. You cannot educate her, you cannot make her do or feel anything. Look at it this way...he has spent the better part of a month (or more) not taking her calls, not calling her back, etc. He has done the biggest brush-off job he can muster without actually being a man and saying "It's over." Most OMs wouldn't do this, because they get a kick out of stringing their women along. He is no different. She also saw his facebook with another woman on it which he calls his girlfriend. She STILL doesn't get it! This will go sour fast for her. The harder she falls, the faster she will run back to you-hopefully.

Your neighbor needs to show her that correspondance on IM. She can play the bad guy. Your WW is grasping at straws, now. Just wait it out. You've said/done all you need, now let the chips fall where they may!