I'm assuming the previous post was just WW's anger still showing though from the exposure. I remember someone telling me that his WW was angry for a full 6 weeks after exposure.

I'm also assuming I should just continue to do what I've been doing, Plan A stuff, little things to let her know I still care and love her, not push relationship talk, etc.

Anyone?

Been real busy but have kept up on your situation. I have no advice but I feel for ya. After what you have had to go thru during the affair including she being disrespectful enough to go on a weekend trip with her BF - this attitude is cruel. Just hang in there friend - I just want to say that I understand withdrawl phase is nasty but eventually if she doesnt pull herself up and wake up - it might be too late for her. That treatment (or abuse) has consequences. Anyway - I know you want to save this marriage and I do hope you have a fully remorseful spouse at the other side quickly.

Thanks RW. Funny thing is, I'm really beginning to not give a sh**. I guess if the A was still going on I'd be getting close to plan B right now. Maybe the A is still going on through work email/IM's. I don't know. But I know this anger is a classic sign of WD, so I try not to react to her nasty comments and act like the person she'd want to be with. It's just so frickin hard to continue to take it when you want to stand up and go with plan FU.

Do not send that letter.

Too late. Why would you say to not send the letter? This is pretty much what SH told me to say to her (and the spirit is how others here have advised me to respond to her anger).

Not challenging you, but what is your reason for saying to not send the letter?

I don't really see a problem with it at all. It is amazing how utterly disrespectful she is. I personally am not a big fan of taking lumps. I did the individual work of Plan A well but I engaged in a lot of LB through what should have been the Plan A process.

Have you asked her simply "why are you mad at me?" It would be interesting to see her try to explain it.

Just happend to read your thread today - I think the letter you sent was just fine. It didn't sound needy, or clingy. Those are the things to watch for.

The occasional reminder that you still believe in her, and your M, and want to build a better M with her is perfectly fine in plan A.


I am curious - since you have been working with SH - isn't there a way to kindly - but firmly - suggest that you will not allow her to treat you like this forever? That you understand she is hurting, and you want to help her, but if she continues to give you the cold shoulder in your own home, and basically make you walk on egg shells everytime she is in the room, that perhaps she would be better off living some place else?

Thanks for the replies and encouragement everyone.

I don't really walk on egg shells when she is in the room. I basically just try to stay out of her way. I've read on this website that during WD it's best to basically just try to exist with her. Nothing I do during this time will put anything in her love bank and she will not allow me to meet any of her EN's.

Last night was kind of rough. I was really down. Pretty much decided that I was done. There's only so much disrespect one can take, ya know. This crap has been going on since April (when I first suspected) and since Sept when dday happened. Since Sept WW has been unbelievable in her disrespect.

I woke up about 3:15 and started praying for guidance and crying, crying for my kids. I fell back asleep and woke up about 4:45. When I woke up it's like my prayers had been answered. I had this clarity of what I should do.

I've decided that at this point, I really don't care what the end result is. I want our marriage to work, am willing to do the work to make it happen, but I just don't care if she stays or goes. So once I realized that, the next logical step is that I don't really care if she is still in contact with OM or not. I don't think she is, but I don't care. With that being the case, I can allow myself to distance myself from the anger/depression (which was what the email was about yesterday). Not caring what happens allows me to not really get to worried about this anger. She is still in that WD time period everyone (including Dr. Harley) says to not pay any attention to her words, only her actions. And her actions say she's not going anywhere. Not caring one way or another will allow me to weather this WD easier.

I'm going to give her more time to come out of the WD/Anger/Depression and see what happens. If she is still in contact I'll tell the kids and ask her to leave at some point. But without caring it will be easier to get through this. Of course, with the rollercoaster it is, I'm sure my attitude will change in the next 5 minutes, but for now, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Sorry to ramble on and ramble on. Just had to get this out. Does any of it make sense?

H4U:

You just stepped into a dangerous place.

It is a place that can give you peace. And a modicum of relief.

But its a dangerous place.

Once YOU decide it isn't worth the effort, then this M will be DOOMED.

Because you react to her words, and not her actions.

Because you decide to ignore the plans, and start working with your "Feelings"

Everything is YOUR fault, according to her.

You Broke Up Her Affair, You Ignored her, You did "Yada, Yada, Yada."

Maybe you give her Plan FU tonight, or tommorrow.

It JUST might move her to realize how tenous her position IS.

She just MIGHT have that "head slap" moment, "WOW, I could LOSE BOTH!"

And then she REALLY begins recovery.

But what does SH recommend?

Ignore her words, and watch her actions.

You get a rude e-mail from her.

Your response, agrees with her. So, NOW you have to stay away. Agreement with her WORDS, not her actions.

Paragraph #1 agrees to stop visiting her at work. Bad. Para #2 was great. WHY your stopping BY.

Emails from you and visits from you will ALWAYS create consternation in HER. Until she starts to really withdraw.

Then she will remember ALL the TIMES you still reached out.

So now you want to step into a space that will allow you even LESS opportunity to reach out.

Your winning the war, but sometimes you make tactical moves that set you way behind.

Sometimes, these tactical errors are not apparent until after the fact. And then we have to recover, and or, more importantly, learn from them.

So, your in a dangerous place, at a dangerous time.

So what if she doesn't want to go to your Mothers. Your Mother just might call her what she is. Her mother won't call her that. And she COULD ignore you at her Mothers, but she would have to put on apperances at YOUR Mothers.

So, please, follow here actions, NOT her words.

And make some time for SH next week.

The pressure is ON your W. Removing IT makes it easier for her. So please, do NOT lose your advantages.

LG

Ya, it does makes sense, to most of us, unfortunately.

Thanks LG. I know what you are saying.

I don't really feel like I'm at a dangerous place. I'm not saying (I don't think) that I don't think the marriage is worth the effort, I just have come to the place where I will be ok with the outcome, whatever it is. I am still committed to making our marriage work. I'm still willing to put in whatever amount of work is necessary to make that happen. But I've decided to not let my life/actions be defined by her. I almost think that this attitude I have now may help. It's almost like I have been doing a good plan A without the detached love piece. I think I finally understand that I can't force her to do anything. If she wants to enjoy the ride with me, great, but if not, I'm ok.

I kind of understand why you think my agreeing to not stop by her office is bad, but I figured it would be a LB to continue to do if she requested that I don't. As far as WW going to my mom's for Christmas, I figured it would be a relief as me and the boys will have a great time without her and if she see's that, it will make her realize what she's missing. I think you have said before, give her choices, but if she doesn't want to do something, go and have fun without her. That's what I'm doing with Christmas.

I know I won't give her plan FU quite yet. With this attitude I now have I think I'll be able to weather the storm of her anger/depression better. I still plan on giving her cards, notes, etc periodically, but I will just lay off for a bit.

I agree with observing her actions, not her words. She's still home, still talking about things in our future, etc so that email hit me hard at first, but I didn't react to it, I acted (with my response).

And I know that she thinks everything is my fault. That's why I haven't gone to plan FU already. And I know the pressure is on her, hence her anger. I'm just going to continue doing what I've been doing (except for visiting her office) and wait it out until the end of Jan, beginning of Feb and see if she begins to come out of her anger. I'll be watching closely her actions and keep an eye out for those times when she lets her guard down. I'll then reevaluate whether we're making progress or not and determine what to do next.

Sounds like the Roller Coaster is full speed ahead. Try to keep your head up. It is a difficult time. LG is right, you are heading into dangerous territory. I can't say that I didn't do the same thing on occasion. Sometimes you stop caring (or tell yourself to) for a few hours to give yourself an emotional break. The danger is if you don't come out of it. If I would of received an email like that from my wife I could see it triggering that emotion in me. One thing to remember is that Plan B isn't to stop the A. It's to save your love bank balance that you still have remaining for your WW. I'm not promoting that you switch now, but when you start thinking about not caring that is a sign that it may not be too far off.

I agree with you on christmas at her mom's. She still doesn't think that she is in any danger of losing her family over this. Maybe a holiday without her family might give her a good slap in the face.

"I am curious - since you have been working with SH - isn't there a way to kindly - but firmly - suggest that you will not allow her to treat you like this forever?"

Other's might disagree but I agree with WOF. She needs to understand that she has walked all over you long enough. You deserve better than to be treated like that. Assuming you've been doing plan A since a little after dday, that would make your plan A over 3 months now. You're sitsuation is a little different right now in that the A may have just ended, but I think you should think about setting a date that you will stop plan A. Saying maybe the end of January or February is too vague...for you. I don't think your WW is interested in leaving you or she would have left by now, she instead is trying to walk all over you and treat you like dirt. You are going to need to protect yourself. You can talk to her and give her some of your boundaries without LB. You don't have to tell her she must have NC with OM right now if you aren't comfortable with that. But you can tell her you won't accept her treating you the way she did in that email. She might react negatively but she is doing that anyway. I wouldn't expect you to tell her right before christmas and risk making it worse right before the holidays but I would consider doing it soon.

Hopeforus:

You're working with SH? Terrific. Turn off the computer and ignore all of us...

Having given you the best piece of advice I can, I'll try to address these issues.

When your spouse is having an affair---it's disrespectful. Duh. But you're not reasoning with a loving spouse---you have an out-of-control affair addict. Addicts are not fun to deal with, and they're typically only concerned with themselves.

I assume that you have tried to negotiate an end to the affair using the typical tools that SH would work with you on. And it's been unsuccessful so far, correct? If she's doing specific things to drain your lovebank (like the general affair isn't enough), you should respectfully ask her to stop. For example, if she goes to bed with you, picks up the cell phone, and calls the OM---that's a lovebuster that she could probably avoid. Wait until your at least out of the house...

By maintaining composure and good manners---especially to someone who really deserves a crack over the head with a baseball bat---it makes an impression. You will not know this (normally) in Plan B. You will not know it in Plan B. Once you're on the way to recovery, you will find out what a profound impact this 'waste of time' was.

My wife pulled the same crap. Couldn't stop the affair. Took the kids to visit OM's family. Went for trips herself. Phone calls. Ack. I did a perfect Plan A (hah!---ask Steve about that). Seriously, I did the best I could. I never felt it was nearly good enough. It had 'no effect'. It was around the same timescale that you're working on. I even was ready to go to Plan B after Christmas (she had to go visit him during New Years). She finally "agreed" to no contact---but like any addict, she relapsed after a few weeks.

I went to Plan B in that 5-6 month timeframe (around March/April). When the affair broke up (only a couple months, but the reason provided another interesting opportunity for me)---and AFTER my wife got through the depression of that (a couple months), she said that the time and effort I made in Plan A made all the difference to her in the world.

Of course, I would have never known that when I was doing it. I'd have tiny victories, but it always felt like I was losing the war. This is the way it goes---so keep working with Steve. And if you're really sick of it and losing that love for her---it's getting time for Plan B.

Are you on anti-depressants?

I hear ya bhge.

I've been thinking all day (not much work getting done!) and I know it's dangerous territory to feel the way I do, but I don't think I don't want the M to work. And I know I'm willing to do the work required. It's more that I think I've realized that I'll be ok without her if it comes to that. Like I finally hit my own head with a 2x4 and realized, I'm a catch! If she doesn't see that, it's her problem. I think this will actually be good. It will let me be the kind of man she wants to be with instead of defining myself by our marriage. Make sense?

I've been trying to ignore the nasty emails of the last couple weeks as I know they're WD inspired. Maybe I'm missing something, but now that it seems the A has ended my plan A can be kind of open ended in that I reevaluate periodically to see if any progress is being made. I think the A only really ended two weeks ago and someone here commented that their WW was angry with them for 6 weeks after her A ended. Then this guy started noticing changes. That's where I was going with the end Jan/begin Feb idea.

I also didn't think plan B was a good idea if the A was over. Like SH says, anytime there is a separation, there is a danger. If she hasn't left by now, I don't see her leaving anytime soon (although I might get a big shock after the holidays). There will be a discussion at some point about NC and the way she is treating me. But like Dr. Harley says on this website, during WD the wayward will be angry/depressed all at the same time. So I'm kind of waiting to see if that anger/depression subsides which would indicate NC is going on. If the anger/depression continues for too long then I'll know contact is still going on and that's when the conversation about my boundaries and where our marriage is headed will happen.

Me talking to her about NC right now would be a waste of breath. In her mind, she's emotionally divorced herself from me so her response would be, "whatever". But if I wait until WD moves along some there will be a time (I hope) that she realizes she wants to stay in the M and that's when NC and counseling will be brought up.

Like many have said here, I'm trying to see her actions and not her words and go from there. A lot of her actions indicate she isn't going anywhere. Some of her words too. Like her email, it didn't say nothing can change, it said, nothing has changed. Big difference in my book. I didn't really expect her to say, "man, I f'd up, ILY" at this point. It's too early in (assumed) WD for that.

Thanks K, I appreciate it. I'm encouraged by your quick story. My WW's A seems to have ended so I'm now in that "couple months" WD period. That's what I need to keep reminding myself. The A is over and I just need to get through the WD, but it sucks.

Let me see if I can fill in some blanks since I had my original thread deleted.

After Dday I tried to negotiate an end to the A with no luck. She even got so bold as to take off about everyother weekend to spend with OM. He had moved about 4 hours away shortly before Dday. I'm sure by my not kicking her out then she thought I was condoning the A. But she didn't know about plan A and exposure.

It took a while to find the OMW. She lives in Louisiana and OM works in Ky. He moves from job to job every couple years. And apparently affair to affair at the same time, according to OMW.

I finally tracked OMW down and exposed to her (11-13). She and I have become allies. We talk almost daily. About a week later she told me that OM had told her he ended it with WW. There is some evidence of contact a week after OM said it was over to OMW. I still don't know if OM and WW communicate at work with email and IM. Don't know if I'll ever know for sure, but something happened on Dec 8. WW took off early in the morning after doing all the special things she did before meeting OM so right after she left I called OMW. She immediately started calling OM. He responded a couple hours later and his cell calls originated in his home city. With the number of miles WW put on her car that day it would indicate she went half way to where he lives. But with his cell calls and the time he must not have shown up (he made another call to his W after lunch that originated in home city also, so he couldn't have driven to see WW). I feel like WW probably was grasping at the A and told him to meet her and he didn't show and that's when the A officially ended as the next day OM texted his W and said he didn't want a D and what could he do to make it work. She told him a start was NC with WW. He said that was already done. When WW got home that night her anger was greater than even exposure night.

You can read what has transpired since in earlier posts on this thread.

Since she's in WD (I assume by her anger/depression) I've been doing my best plan A. Always doing everything I did before, leaving her little notes, leaving cards telling her I'm thinking of her on her purse before I go to work. She hasn't thrown one away yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I know what you are saying about not thinking I'm doing plan A correctly, but SH says I'm doing fine. He thinks (as well as my friend D who had her own A about 10 years ago) that WW will begin to come out of it sometime after christmas. I just posted to bhge on my current attitude, so I won't repeat it, but my attitude now is making dealing with her anger/depression easier, and I think she'll see it.

I really think her nasty emails and comments to me are trying to pick a fight so she can justify the A, but I'm not biting. And that's a change for me. Before I never backed down from a good arguement, but now Homey don't go there. So it's almost like she's testing to see if these changes are for real. I'm assuming it'll pay dividends in the not too distant future.

Whew.....sorry to ramble.

I'd be interested in your interesting opportunity. Can you tell me about it or point me to your thread?

And no to the AD's. not yet anyway.

Hi Hopeforus:

Sure, [link>>] My interesting opportunity

The bottom line is my wife got pregnant by the OM. That's a stiff double-shot of reality for an affair. And then, knowing what a lovebuster it was when I discussed child custody issues with my wife during her affair---when he started threatening her with legal action concerning the unborn child---put a fork in that affair, baby...

That child will be 9 soon. I counseled with Steve when he still had hair! (you have to tell him that...)

And I agree with Steve and you that your wife might just be testing you. So, stay the course!

Hey hopeforus!

I just finished reading your thread and I must say you are a very strong person. I have so much admiration for BS's in your shoes who just keep fighting the good fight while dealing with the alien. I hope that your WW gets through the WD stage quickly and that you can begin recovering sooner rather than later. I was a bear to deal with and have just recently started pulling my head outa my [censored]!

Since then (about 2 weeks ago) we have been in a whole different place and it feels like a huge weight has been lifted from both of us. It really is a fog! As it clears, I can see the re-write that I had done on our history, and now I am seeing things the way they really were again, ya know. It's amazing what you can do to twist the truth to convince yourself of something that is absolutely false and self-destructive. I don't know if you've followed my and want2stay's threads, but I caused a LOT of pain, and the fact that he stuck by me will amaze me on a daily basis for the rest of my life!

I wish you all the best! I am sorry your holidays have to be spent in the middle of her WD! Try to enjoy being with your sons and stay positive.

ps-you know, I went back and edited that men-beware thread! I meant to say MyRevelation, not YOU! Soooo sorry!

Thanks K & R. I have read your thread K and have looked at your thread R, but I'm going to re-read it this morning.

Both of your situations give me hope. Don't worry about the "men beware" thing R, things that bother people on this forum don't usually bother me. The emotions here are just so raw that I don't usually get bothered by things people say that bother others.

I am hopeful. WW loves our kids completely. I know deep down she would never hurt them and that's why I think if she can get through WD I'll see my W back and not that alien. I know that sometimes people think they are getting only one side of the story here so you can be somewhat skeptical, but prior to this we did have a good marriage. Heck, I thought it was GREAT! I've thought long and hard about what went wrong, and I'm convinced that what was wrong in our marriage is fixable. WW has admitted to me, post Dday that I make her feel comfortable, I'm a good father, I make her feel safe, I'm a very good financial provider, I do the domestic thing to the extreme (she wants a cleaning person and I ask why, I do all the cleaning anyway? My admin at work says I'm WW's bit** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), prior to and even after the A started we always did everything together (when I wasn't traveling for work), I used to buy her flowers a couple times a month as well as cards etc, SF was great, 2-3 times a week. So I just think with the stress of our move, my travel for work the last couple years and my stupid devotion to my new job when she was struggling at her new job allowed the predator to move in and make the kill. Like Dr. Harley says, (by my wife's on admission), I'm meeting most of her EN's but OM hit the important 1 or 2 when she was in a vunerable state. I was a fool to not see it, but like most BS's here, I never thought WW would do something like this so I probably didn't see the warning signs. Looking back to right after our move, I remember WW trying to reach out to me in what she was missing (conversation mostly, like most men I tried to fix everything instead of just LISTENING), but with my new job being so demanding I just didn't get it.

Ok, I've rambled on enough. What am I going to do this minute? Do some work at home. But I guarantee things are and will be different if I can just get through this WD.

Nothing new. WW was quite the Ice Queen again yesterday. She did say a few words to me, not angry in tone. But just a few. She went shopping for a while and when she came home she went upstairs and stayed there for 3 or so hours.

When she did come downstairs she was slamming things around (not like breaking things, but just closing doors hard, putting a bottle of tea down hard, etc).

I took our son to his buddies band practice (where he spent the night) and when I came home still not a word from her. When I went to bed I told her good night and she didn't say a word to me.

Oh well, I guess that's going to be my life for a while longer. Just looking forward to Christmas with the kids and my family. If she doesn't want to join the fun, it's her loss.