Pretty normal (for these days) day yesterday. WW did talk to me some about gifts etc. I talked with OMW last night for a while. OM is home for the holidays and she said the first night he was home things were nice but then yesterday they had a blow up.

OM got angry with her because he "knows" she and I are calling/texting each other. She said to him "you never cared about my feelings when you were scr***** WW, why should I care what you feel about me talking with BS? What's everyone make of that? Is he still in contact with WW and doesn't want OMW talking with me because I'll tell her if they are still in contact? Or is he just really a pig and thinks OMW and I are going to do something to get back at OM and WW (not going to happen, for one we live 1000 miles apart, plus I love my WW and want to make our marriage work and just wouldn't go there)? Just seems kind of fishy that he would be angry about us talking. Is it just the fogged out thinking of a wayward that just because they do something outside of marriage they think everyone does that?

Heading for home later today. Our son's GF's family invited us to go to midnight church with them tonight. Haven't discussed this with WW yet. What does everyone think? I would enjoy going. Should I go without WW if she doesn't want to set foot in a church right now?

Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas despite the hurt and pain we are going through. I had a thought last night that by this time next year things will be different. Either my WW and I will be in recovery or we'll be living apart and I'll be moving on with my life, one way or another. It stinks to think about, but it is what it is.

Again, Merry Christmas to all my FRIENDS here. I say a prayer for all of you every day. One for peace for the betrayed, one for guidance for the waywards and a big one blessing all who come here to help, whether formerly wayward or formerly betrayed.

The saga continues.......

Christmas eve and Christmas day were quite the rollercoaster. There were periods of time where WW was as close to "normal" as she has been since exposure day and then a few minutes later the wayward part of her came back with a vengeance. Some of those normal periods were actually a number of hours in length.

Like Chrismas Eve, we let our son open presents at our house before we headed back to our home town for our family get togethers. I gave WW the presents I had bought for her and she gave me the most nasty look, but then opened them and actually made a few nice comments about what I had bought. She actually said "thank you" after she was done opening them. For a few hours after that she was kind of normal. But then she took a shower before we were going to leave and something must have triggered her because when she came downstairs she was slamming stuff around. I asked her what was wrong and she said (in a very angry voice) "NOTHING". But then about 20 minutes later, she was kind of close to normal.

The rest of Christmas eve was kind of ok. We got to our hometown, found a hotel and went to my MIL's. We were sitting there talking with MIL, just me, WW and our son. Son starts talking about this teacher of his and how she is on AD's. MIL asks him what caused her to be on AD's and our son tells about a number of things that had happened to her, the last being that the teacher had come home one day and found her H in bed with an OW. Son then says the teacher tried to run her H over with a car. My MIL says (and this is PERFECT), "I'd have done the same thing, he deserves it!". And get this, my WW says "yeah" in agreement! Boy that was priceless. I wanted to go out and buy my son another present for Christmas right there!

Christmas morning, WW was very rude to me at the hotel. I had went to a gas station and got her some coffee and she didn't even acknowledge me when I told her there was coffee if she wanted it. She went storming out of the room and took off for her mom's. When me and the boys got there about 45 minutes later, she was pretty civil to me. Later in the day she refused to go to my moms house like she had said last week, so the boys and I went without her. When we got back later to pick her up to come home she was kind of ok.

All that being said brings me to my question. Having read on this site and talked to SH, both say that this kind of behavior could be my WW beginning to come out of it. She'll have periods of time of being somewhat normal and then right back to being of a wayward mindset. Have any waywards out there done this kind of thing? Any betrayeds out there experienced this from their WS as they were coming out of the fog? Any encouragement you can give that she's headed in the right direction would help a great deal in my continuing efforts.

Any of my MB peeps have any comments to my above question? LG? TYK? Anyone?

H4U, you are so much more patient than I could ever be. I applaud your resolve, and I hope for the best for you and your family.

I see both you and ManInNeed with a couple of the most vicious, mean WS I've read about and it makes me so thankful that I did not have to endure THAT in my situ.

I hope things get better and that you begin to see more of the W and less of the FWW. If you're ever ready to just kick her in the [censored] and see what happens, let me know.

:P

See, I had a huge problem GETTING THE TRUTH from my WW. But once I did, it was all over with, and was going to be all over with one way or another. She was spittin mad about the truth being drug out of her, but she somehow realized almost immediately that she had brought it all on herself. I also had the advantage of her having ended the PA months before me getting the truth, so I never had any knowledge of the withdrawal, I assumed it was a continuation of the A.

So you are in uncharted territory from my personal experience. You are doing a great job following the MB plans and are recieving advice from Harley and following it, he doesn't seem to find your situ all that unusual and he's seen it all! So stick with the plan man!

Hi Hopeforus,

It certainly sounds like she's dealing with stuff on a deeper level than she's been used to for the few weeks. You did great! Whether it's her coming out of the fog, or whether it's just a swing in the 'addiction' cycle---hard to say. But you did great!!

H4U:

Your doing great.

Plan A your W, and plan B the WW.

When she is being nastty and acting like WW, then Plan B.

When she is responding to you, and acting like the W you know, than plan A her.

LG

Thanks K, TYK, LG. I appreciate the comments.

Now I'm getting worried. Last night WW was as close to being back to my W more than any time since exposure day. Don't get me wrong, it still wasn't "normal", but we actually had a couple of conversations throughout the night and there was NO anger. She still ignored me when I told her good night and again this morning when I told her I'd see her tonight, but again, no anger last night.

We even had one conversation that if we'd have had it a week ago it would have been really different. Our son stayed with a friend in our hometown when we came home on Christmas. We're going to pick him up today. I thought I was going to pick him up and WW thought she was going to pick him up. During the day yesterday I realized I have a haircut appt tonight. I said to WW that I would have to reschedule as we only have one car while our other son is home from school and staying at his GF's in our hometown. WW replied that she was going to take vacation today and go get him so I could keep my appt as she'd be home in time for me to go. I misunderstood thinking she was going to take all day off so last night I asked if she was going to get up first thing this morning or sleep in. She asked me, "What"?, but in a normal voice. I asked again and she said the same thing, in a normal voice again. I then said "if you're taking vacation tomorrow, are you going to get up early and she said, "I'm only taking a few hours off in the afternoon". Again in a completely normal voice. That is a huge change from even a week ago in our dialog with each other.

Now I'm worried. Is she beginning to come out of it? It's been 6 weeks since exposure day and about 3 weeks since what I feel was the "official" end of the A. I'm hopeful, but there is a bigger part of me that is not trusting anything. Is she beginning to get over the anger because there has been some contact? Don't think there has been as OM is home with his family and as best I can tell there have been no calls/TM's to him from her phone.

Guess I need to continue with the Plan A stuff and see if her actions continue to show me my W instead of the WW. Including last night, this makes 4 days in a row that there have only been a couple of minor bouts of anger/depression. But again, I'm guarding my feelings in case this is just a lull in the storm.

Comments?

A couple of more interesting tidbits that I forgot to mention.

Christmas day my mom gave WW and myself a card. Mom is on a fixed income and I told her to NOT get us anything for Christmas. So she gave us a card and in it she had written the most beautiful note to both of us. When I read it I had to go into the bedroom so everyone wouldn't see me crying. She told WW that she loved her like a daughter, thought the world of her as she makes me happy, etc. Of course WW wasn't at Mom's so when we got home that night I put the card, face up on the dining room table hoping that curiosity would get the best of WW and she'd read it. When I got home from work last night the card was in a different place. Did she read it or just move it? I don't know, but I can't imagine her not at least looking at it. If she looked at it, it would have had to have an affect on her (unless she has no soul left), but......

Yesterday my friend D forwarded me one of those chain emails that goes around. WW had sent it to D. It talked about God, faith, etc. One line says "Why is it so hard to tell the truth but yet so easy to tell a lie?" Another part says "Isn't it funny how someone can say 'I believe in God' but still follow Satan"?

WW had received this email on Dec 16th and just forwarded it to D yesterday. Why? Did she not go to church with our son and I on Christmas eve because of guilt? Why send this email now?

Is all the pressure beginning to take it's toll? Are all these things beginning to have an affect? Only time will tell, but the events of the last few days seem to make me think she might be coming out of the fog.

H4U:

One day at a time.
One Day at a Time.
One Day AT A TIME.

OK.

This is a roller-coaster. It goes up slow, and drops fast.

Your WW is on it TOO. She's just on a different track.

I hope your W comes back. But What was "Normal" is no longer part of your M.

Because that "normal" resulted in her Affair happening.

And if you thought breaking up the A was tough, recovery is even tougher.

But it is difinately worth the ride.

Don't wonder about why she forwarded an email. And if the email seemed contradictory to her actions. Like going to church.

Just be grateful that she is doing something like that. Reading things like that and going to church.

OK?

Until she is truly recovered, which can take two years, then there will always be these contradictory things to analyze. So don't analyze it, 'K.

Because, as your try to analyze, it will infect your thinking, and then, you will challenge her on these contradictions, and that WILL set back your recovery. Thinking about it, generally results in talking about it. So, put it away.

And alot of other stuff that will be happening in the next three-six months.

About the card from your mother?

Ask her. And if W answers you, then tell her how it touched YOU. If WW answers, then that means that SHE did read it. And leave it at that.

LG

Thanks LG. I appreciate your comments. And to clear up, she hasn't gone to church...that's why the email to D was so confusing/contridictory to me.

I understand what you are saying about her being on a rollercoaster also and that's why I'm not getting my hopes up too high, but it's so nice to have a somewhat "normal" few days that it's hard not to.

I also understand recovery will be the hardest thing, for both of us. WW will have to make some serious changes (she's always been more comfortable with men friends and is quite a flirt, both of which never bothered me before, but now I wonder if there is something deeper there) and she's just enough of a bullhead to maybe not see that she has those changes to make. I hope so. And it's hard for me not to analyze as I'm a thinker by nature. But I try not to let those things affect me....easier said than done.

I probably should have asked if she saw the card from my mother. But to do that now I think she would see through the question so I probably missed that opportunity.

I just stick with my plan. Let her see the lighthouse home while preparing for the worst which is the "make your choice" between what you have at home and the chaos of OM. Hope with what I'm seeing it doesn't come to that, but these last few days of "normalcy" have made me realize that I won't go back to the pain of what has gone on the last 4 months.

Stop manipulating.

Don't leave a card out and hope that she'll read it then stew about wondering if she read it and wondering what she thought of it. That's ridiculous.

Instead, walk up to her, give her the card, tell her its from your mother and that it meant alot to you and that you'd like her to read it.

Wouldn't that have been much easier? You'd know that she read it, she wouldn't be sitting there "finding" this card laying out for her and thinking "he wanted me to read it, he's trying to make me feel guilty!"

It took away some of the power of the card, the sincerity from your mother and became a tool for manipulation in some ways. Don't take away the power of your mothers voice, and don't shy away from allowing your W to face the consequences her behavior has had on not just her relationship with you, but with many people. These things are very real and are going to take time and work to get through, and they have to be done at some point.

In recovery, its not just her that will have to change, its you too. Start getting used to radical honesty, start practicing it.

I don't think this whole card thing was the end of the world, but going forward, think of how you are presenting yourself. STOP being sneaky, start saying what you mean and allow her to react honestly to your honesty.

Wow, that's a 2x4 if I've ever heard one.

My thinking was if I gave her the card to read that that would be (in her mind) me trying to manipulate her by forcing her to read something that I knew would affect her. I've read quite a few times here on MB that if you want your WS to read something, giving it to them and saying read it is a waste of time, but if you just leave it laying out their curiosity will get the best of them and if they read it on their own without me standing over her shoulder it will have more affect (I think I read Mr W say he did that with the 31 reasons to stop an affair and I think Mrs W took the bait). Seemed to me it was less manipulative doing it the way I did.

I hear what you are saying about saying what I mean and allowing her to react to it. I'm still in what I think is that WD mode of hers so I have been trying to just exist with her while filling any EN's she'll let me (which aren't many). Food for thought going forward. Thanks.

It wasn't intended as a 2x4 H4U. It was just my perception of the situation.

Thing is, that card was from your mother, to both of you. I don't view this as quite the same thing as "relationship talking" or a counselors article or something like that, this was something your mother wanted to say to her, and had your W been there, she would have given it to her directly I imagine.

Alot of this is just a differnce in personality. I have said in the past that you are much more patient than I am. I believe I am more of an "in your face" type of person. In the past it has gone so far as to be a fault. So, take whatever I say with a grain of salt!

I guess the important thing is that she read it, I just can't help but think that at some time you are going to have to be willing to push your W a bit, to knock her off her "withdrawal pedastle" so to speak.

I agree with Tyk, that this doesn't seem to come under the heading of trying to teach your wife.

I wonder if a simple, "Honey, I don't know if you had a chance to read the Christmas card Mom sent, but when I read the note she wrote about how much she loves you, I was really blessed (touched, moved? FITB).

Hopeforus,

I think you handled the card issue fine. I also wouldn't have had a problem with you directly handing it to your wife either. If you had problems with 'teaching' your wife (disrespectful judgments) before the affair, I would have probably suggested that you do it in the manner that you did (leave it for her to look at, if she wanted to).

With regards to your wife's mood. It could be the end of the affair, or it could just be a cycle in the addiction. I remember my wife going off to visit the OM (almost 10 years ago to the day---it was New Year's eve). I was incredibly despondent the next day while she was gone. I took the kids out to a children's museum---I was sitting on a bench silently sobbing while watching them play. A woman sitting next to me just took my hand and held it---said nothing---while I let those emotions pass through me.

When my wife got back, she was like her old, pre-affair self. Even better. Funny, playing with the kids, joking with me. Making plans for a future. It was at that moment I realized how seriously similar the addictive nature of an affair was to chemical substance addiction---she was high, it was all a fake, and she would crash the next day. I enjoyed it while it was happening, wished I could bottle some of it for when I needed a shot of hope, but knew that it was just a by-product of endorphins and adrenaline. And sure enough, the next day was a crash...

You may not experience this. If you do, recognize it for what it is. It's neither bad nor good---it's just part of the affair addiction.

Thanks K. One of the things my WW said to me when I told her she needed to end it with OM for us to have a chance is "I hate it when you make my decisions for me, I'll decide if and when to end it". I suspect you're correct that I probably was in "teacher" mode more than she liked which could be once cause of the A. She said to me on Dday that she's not giving him up because he makes her feel "confident".

And I know EXACTLY what you are talking about with your wife's attitude when she came home from seeing her OM. My WW was exactly the same way. Since he lives 4 hours away she would only go to see him every other weekend. When she came home on Sunday night she was on top of the world for 3-4 days and then she'd start the downward sprial until a week later when she could get her fix.

That's why I'm afraid of what I am witnessing now. Is she coming out of it or has there been some kind of contact? I know she hasn't seen him for at least 3 weeks and probably more like 7 weeks. I have no idea whether there has been phone/email/IM contact at work as recently as last week, but I know there has been no phone contact since at least last Saturday. By her anger/depression and the things that have happened I'm thinking NC has been in place since Dec 8, but I don't know for sure.

I'm going to just take these somewhat good days for what they are....a respite from the pain. I'll continue to monitor her moods (and cell phone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) to try to see if what I am seeing is her coming out of the fog or if it's just a lull in the thing. Will keep in touch with OMW to try and monitor OM's end as well. Some time in a few weeks to a month we'll have the heart to heart about where we are going. Either she commits to working on our marriage and NC forever or she can find somewhere else to live, Plan B! I just know the last few days have shown me that I will not go back to the pain of the last 4 months, with or without her.

Get out your 2x4's please.

Yesterday I left WW a little note on her purse before I left for work. All it said was "hope your day goes well, drive safe (she was going to pick up or son in our hometown) and I love you".

When I got home I saw where she had torn up the note and thrown it away. That kind of bothered me, but then I talked to my friend D and she said that WW is probably still in that angry end of the A WD so she wouldn't worry too much about it as it probably makes WW angry to see that I still love her (if that makes any sense).

Earlier this week I had heard WW tell her mom that the "girls" were going out Friday night but she didn't know if she wanted to go or not, so this morning I asked if she was going (as we only have one car now, I can only drive my work truck to and from work and our other son has my car in our hometown). And I got the most sarcastic "uh...yaaa" you ever heard.

I know you are going to tell me to quit worrying what she does and just keep up with plan A, but it's just so hard. This morning I find myself thinking as I drive to work that I'm approaching the point that I don't know if I even want this to work. I know LG, dangerous territory, but I could use some proping up this morning that things are headed in the right direction and this anger is just part of the up and down of WD.

Calling SH today to try and set up my next appt to see what his take is on this. Hopefully he'll say it sounds like it's headed in the right direction, but we'll see.

Its not withdrawal, at least not entirely. Its a complete lack of respect, imo. It isn't something that is going to be Plan A'd away, another one of my opinions. I think you should talk to the Harley's very soon.

Thanks TYK. Got an appt with SH next Wed.

I struggle with whether it's WD or disrespect. Obviously, having an A is the ultimate in disrespect. And the whole "just get through" WD symptoms until WW will allow me to make deposits into her love bank almost makes you put up with the disrespect. Trust me, this is the most difficult thing I've ever done. I just want to shake her and say, ok you F'd up, it's over, now lets work on this marriage. But with everything I've read and what SH has told me (as well as my friend D) that she should soon start to defog some.

Another post I read from a BH said his WW took 6 weeks or so to get past the exposure anger so I hang on to that. Right now I'm at the 6 week mark from exposure day and about 3 weeks from what I think was the official end of the A. If that's true, according to Dr. Harley, she should be getting through the worst of WD and will slowly start to show me more of my W and less of my WW as we go. And there have been some indications she might be headed that way. But like LG says, right now my W and WW are in a struggle and sometimes WW wins and sometimes W wins. If I continue what I'm doing I should see more and more of W and less of WW. So I just don't want to give up too early. I've made it through the worst he!! imaginable and I don't want to blow it in the home stretch.

The stupid thing is, I understand her thinking. She honestly believed (or believes still) that OM was "it", her one chance at being happy. WW told another one of our friends that she couldn't believe how lucky she was with our move finding the "perfect" man for her. Of course she doesn't understand the foggy thinking and marital rewrite she has done to justify it, so right now I'm the devil incarnate because I'm the one that is the cause of her not being with her "perfect" man (and I put that in quotes for a reason, we all know what a scumbag the guy is, WW just doesn't see it or won't let herself see it yet). So that's why I have been taking her abuse thinking if I can just get through the WD from OM that she'll come to her senses. The problem is, everyone has a point where they can only take so much, and I'm approaching that point. I've been dealing with the lies and deciet since April (when I first suspected) and actual knowledge since Labor Day.

When I get to this point I try to think of my kids. I will do anything to protect my kids from pain so that gives me the strength to go on. But like I said, for my own self worth it can't go on much longer. I just need to do the best plan A I can while waiting to talk to SH next Wed so I can see what he recommends.