I agree H4U. Stick to the plan, I really do believe that. Please don't let my frustation for your situation discourage you, and I will try to be more constructive, as the last thing you need is my crappy attitude!

I do wonder how your WW would respond to a "pre-plan B" proclamation of some sort by you. Kind of a notice that "you know, I'm not going to tolerate this from you forever" kind of thing. I just can't help but think that right now, she believes that you are on the hook, that you will be there no matter what she does and therefore has very little incentive to change in regards to you.

I gotta agree with Tyk here ... you've "taken" way too much for your WW to have any respect for you. You have allowed yourself to be her doormat, and she continues to use you as such.

I think its way past time for you to stand up for yourself.

Hi Hope,

Glad that you've got your appointment. You're doing the right work here---Plan A is to get your wife to sit up and notice that a better marriage awaits, should she decide to come on back. But it's often (> 50%) just the first part of the Plan.

The issue of respect is irrelevant here---an affair is the ultimate in 'disrespect'. You're also not dealing with a person in a normal state of mind---your wayward spouse is basically an addict. And addicts---be it alcohol, drug, or affair---have no respect for anything other than their fix. Your job is not to worry about the respect aspect---it's to execute the best Plan A and Plan B to your abilities.

Eventually, the affair will end. It'd be nice if a pre-Plan B threat would help that, but it's unlikely to. In fact---I did one of those. It was a way to force my addict wife into 'no contact' for a few weeks. But because it really wasn't her decision (she didn't hit bottom herself), she failed. A real Plan B is what it takes. And I was much less pleasant when I 'rediscovered' that contact had been established. So I would personally recommend that when you threaten Plan B, you be ready to execute it then.

And I think you're doing a fine job standing up for yourself and your marriage. Keep working with Steve---he'll be able to help you with the details.

Hopeforus,

You are getting conflicting advice ... which is not uncommon. As a matter of fact, K and I have discussed this particular issue at length, and we understand that we arrive at our positions due to differening personality types.

K simply has a much greater tolerance for disrespect than either Tyk or I do. Ultimately, you will have to make the decision for yourself as to how much continued humiliation you can endure.

Hope,

MyRev and I have discussed this at length, and he hasn't counseled with the Harley's, understand and executed Plan A and Plan B---and he doesn't agree with them. And I'm OK with that.

But---disrespect is generally considered an 'active' action with the intent to injure someone. And I'm trying to make the point to you (not MyRev) that addicts typically aren't disrespecting in this manner---it's simply a manifestation of their addiction. That's one of the things AlAnon will teach you---it's not your fault. They're not doing this 'to you.'

With regards to how much you can take, I assume that Steve either is talking with you in regards to this or your doing the inventory survey before each session and faxing it in. This information will help him help you get to the right stage at the right time.

Whenever there is a conflict in advice, I urge the person to stick with the plan, ESPECIALLY someone that is engaged in direct counseling with the Harleys.

I do believe in these plans, I have seen them work. I personally get frustrated on behalf of the BS here, I hate to see thier ongoing pain, and MY personality is one that seeks solutions, sometimes even at the expense of a well laid plan. Its a fault and I need to be more careful and distinguish between "commisseration" and "MB advice". I do believe all "advice" given here should be given according to one's understanding of MB principles. Anything else is just a fool running his mouth imo. I am occasionally a fool, unfortunately, although I try to recognize it and correct it quickly! ITS JUST CAUSE I LOVE YOU MAN!!!! :P

I asked about a "pre-plan B proclamation" because I was curious if any had done something similar with any good result, it appears K tried something similar with no good result as far as impacting the WS. However, K, can I ask: did doing what you did clarify in your mind that it was in fact necessary to go into a dedicated Plan B? I'd be interested to hear about that from you if you'd share, I'd also be curious to hear if any others have tried something similar.

Also, re: "respect". Respect cannot be commanded, meaning that one cannot force another to show them respect. One can, however, refuse to endure disrespect. I agree with K as well that H4U's W's disrespect is as much a part of the addiction of the A as it is a personal affront to him, at least as intended by her, but the result and effect upon H4U is really the same. Enduring disrespect leaves a lasting mark on a BS, it builds resentment, it harms the recovery process when and if it is commenced.

And that is why there is Plan B, to remove ones self from harms way.

MY opinion is that H4U is bound for Plan B, and MY opinion is also that once a situation reaches that point, the sooner one gets into Plan B the better, as enduring Plan A beyond the point where its shown to be effective is I BELIEVE counterproductive. Once plan A has reasonable been shown to have failed, continuing it hurts the BS much more than it benefits the WS.

These are my opinions, based upon my understanding of MB theory.

K,

Please don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said I don't agree with Plan A or B. In fact, I am very much a proponent of Plan A, within reasonable time limits, and quite frankly, Hopeforus is probably past a "reasonable" time limit for a succesful Plan A. Plan B on the other hand is mostly a waste of time for a Type A personality like myself ... you may be succesful is stopping the A, but most Type A's won't be able to recover from the amount of humiliation that has been dumped on them throughout a failed Plan A, followed by Plan B. However, Hopeforus does seem to have a personality type much more like yours, so maybe he will be as "succesful" in his R as you have been, at least as I would define success.

Also, FYI, the quickest way to piss me off on this forum is for you to attempt to discredit what I post by claiming that you are the self-annointed deliverer of the Harley message simply because you've spoken with them. I am much more impressed by a poster who has recovered (or is recovering) a happy and fulfilling M, than someone who simply proclaims to hold the "truth", when the facts suggest otherwise to me.

"YOU" may be OK with insinuating that your opinion is superior to mine, but rest assured, "I" am not.

Personally, I think it is much more valuable for Hopeforus to hear a variety of opinions about his situation and decide for himself which path he will follow.

Hi Tyk,

I was a few months into Plan A when I something my wife was doing set me off. She had visited the OM over New Years, she wore jewelry that he had gotten her to bed (I called my SIL and asked her to say "WTF, WW"---my wife was apparently clueless that would 'bother' me), but I don't actually remember the specific issue. I had discussed Plan B with Steve, but had no firm implementation plans. I threatened her with this, and she cried and boo-hoo'ed but said that she would do no contact. Wouldn't write a letter. Wouldn't start counseling. In other words---I was forcing her and she wouldn't be pushed any farther.

NC lasted for about 3 weeks. She was depressed. Then she got better. I joked to a close friend that either she was coming out of it, or contact was resumed. When I thought about that---the suddeness of the 'good feelings'---I realized that it was the latter, and confirmed with a little spying.

The second confrontation wasn't one of my better moments in Plan A (but MyRev would have loved it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). At this point, I (and Steve) decided to give myself another month in Plan A before transitioning to Plan B. When time came for Plan B, it was done---no amount of begging or promising that she did changed it.

With regards to enduring the crap/disrespect that an affair entails---I completely agree with you. Plan A is not a lifestyle choice. It is a short-term plan (typically 2-6 months, but sometimes no more that a day or two)---it's modulated by what issues the betrayed spouse brought to the marriage before the affair, how they are coping with the stress, etc. And going to long often means that there is no Plan B, there's only Plan D left.

My guess is that Steve will be preparing Hope for Plan B soon (and no matter how well you think you're prepared---you're not)---but Steve does have the tools and experience to help Hope make that decision in a timely one...

Again? I thought you all had agreed to disagree? Anyhow. .focus on H4U's situ.

Actually MyRev, I agree and disagree with your last post in RE: to Plan B. Plan B actually removes the abuse and disrespect endured by the BS, that's one of the primary purposes of Plan B. The thing about overcooked Plan As imo is that they expose the BS to unnecessary abuse to no effect. I believe one of the most important things one can do regarding going into plan B is to RECOGNIZE the timing of it, to recognize when Plan A had failed and get into Plan B to mitigate the damage a failed or failing Plan A does to the BS.

Bottom line is that A's are abuse, they are the epitome of disrespect. I believe all 4 of us here (K, MyRev, H4U and myself) have shown that we can and have endured it and the 3 of us trying to help H4U have recovered or are seeking to recover our M's with some degree of success.

Tyk,

I think you misunderstood my point on Plan B (I've quoted above what I wrote) ... I only think its a waste of time for a Type A, Alpha Male personality. IMHO, once someone like us has done their best Plan A, but continues to be disrespected by our WW's to the point that our underlying love for them is now in question, then there would likely be too much accumulated abuse at that point for a Plan B to be successful.

In that case, I would think a much better plan would be to go directly to Plan D to protect your children and assets from the WW's continued damage.

MyRev:


There are situations where both Plan B and the initial divorce steps are taken in concert. And it is in those situations where children and assets need to be protected---and there's reasonable chance for this to happen.

I did also put a thread out to you with regard to the 'too much Plan A' for a type A. Harley takes that under consideration---and for those folks, a shorter Plan A is recommended.

Once an A is discovered, a BS needs to be doing what they can to protect themselves, thier assets and thier children in case of D.

My take on Plan B is that it is essentially a "pre-D" tactic. It is leaving the door cracked for the WS should they choose to pull thier head out of thier [censored], but the BS is to use the time in Plan B to begin preparing to move on. The effect of Plan B on the WS is passive, in that what happens with them does not really involve, concern, or require any action on the part of the BS other than simply enforcing stringent boundaries in regards to the WS's contact with the BS.

I don't really guess I understand how the "personality types" impacts Plan B. I kinda think that more forceful personalities will benefit more from Plan B, and be able to execute it more effectively. I guess that is why Plan A's can seem to drag out too long, because it often takes a BS reaching the end of thier rope, essentially saying "F THIS!", realizing and accepting the D is in fact preferrable to life in failed Plan A.

Now, for a "Type A" personality, a long drawn out, failed Plan A may do as you say, however, I think that each person really dictates what they themselves can and will bear in Plan A, so the point is in a way moot, right, in that a Type A personality won't endure as much in the first place? Every BS endures more than they ever thought they could. That is part of the reason why recovery is so difficult, because the BS has to come to terms not only with what thier WS has done, but also with themselves as a person worthy of respect.

H4U

I haven't read through your whole post, but something jumped out at me about your wife's anger at you.

I can so relate to it. I was also a WW, who did not respond well to Plan A. It pissed me off.

If your wife had complaints about feeling neglected, I think Plan A might have the same affect on her.
Why now?
Why not before?
Its just manipulation.

I'll try to read more about your sitch....

Hi Lexxy, good to see you, I still value your post in my thread when I was trying to find answers to questions that really just can't be answered! I actually referenced it today in tiredinmd's post in Just Found Out!

How are things with you?

Ok guys. Lets not have this thread become a debate on differing personalities, different approaches, or personal attacks.

I appreciate everyone's comments. No one here knows me other than what I post, so I'll take all comments and decide what is best for me (along with SH). No one here knows my WW either, so situations you've had may or may not work with my WW. I can tell you she is about as bullheaded as they come, so maybe I should just add a month to all references to time that I read here. You all make valid points so keep them coming, it's up to me what to take and what to reject as far as everyone's opinions.

That being said, the conflict I have right now is this: Dr. Harley (on this website), SH (in personal coaching) and my friend D all say that the WD period after the end of an A is nasty. Expect it. Don't react to it. Once the worst part of WD is over (usually 3-4 weeks according to this website and D says her WD lasted about that long) I should begin to see subtle changes in WW. I believe I am beginning to see that.

I also believe that exposure is probably a contributing factor in her anger in WD lasting longer than the 3-4 weeks as suggested here. I know I've been the one venting on these boards that I'm about at the end of my rope, which I am.

What I'm looking for really is, someone to tell me that they've experienced the WD of their wayward, the 3-4 weeks is about right, the anger since exposure 6 weeks ago is normal and that I just need to keep plugging along as it should begin to lessen. Like I said earlier, I can really understand her anger towards me. I just need some proping up that what I'm doing/going through is normal. That will help me cope as I go through this.

The other thing I have asked in the past (maybe not clearly enough) but never have seemed to get a satisfactory answer to is, as I understand MB, plan A is to break up the affair and show the wayward what life at home can be like with me. Plan B comes in when the A doesn't end (and also to protect myself from not caring if the marriage makes it or not). SH told me there is always risk in plan B that the wayward won't come back, so if I'm pretty sure the A has ended and I seem to still be dealing with WD/anger from exposure, it's probably not best to ask her to move out yet.

So I guess what I'm asking (to help me get through until I can talk to SH again) is for confirmation that what I am seeing from WW is a normal part of WD/anger from exposure and to just ignore it and keep up what I'm doing.

Hope:


Yup. I experienced about 8 weeks of withdrawal with my wife, and the first four weeks were the worse. So this is a normal phase.


Correct again. Plan A demonstrates new maritial behavior to the wayward spouse---in other words, the marriage can be better. And hey---you're doing it in the face of less than ideal circumstances. Plan B is the separation phase---you remove yourself from the abusive situation of the affair in order to save love for your spouse. They also now have to depend on the OP to meet their needs full time. There IS a risk in separation (there always is), and so if your WS is truly not in contact with the OM and going through withdrawal---then a Plan B could be like a punch in the face. Especially if they're stubborn.

Will your wife do a MB weekend away? That might be a nice change in pace for the two of you...

Thanks for the thought Lexxxy. Did I neglect my WW? In my mind I didn't, but for the last couple years I did travel for work a lot and then with our relocation for work I was really wrapped up in my new job so I wasn't there to listen to her when she was having trouble with the position our company found her when we moved. And the OM worked with WW and he "makes her laugh and makes her feel confident". BTW, Not sure if it's on this thread or not, so for your benefit, OM is a serial cheater. He lives/works 1000 miles from OMW. has for years. This is his 4-5 A that she knows about and she suspects more. He's an alcoholic, verbally abusive to his kids, verbally/physically abusive to his wife, a real piece of work. Everytime she's busted him he comes running back to her and ends the current A. I think that has happened this time too, which is my biggest question now. If the A has ended like I think it has, how long should I do Plan A before going to plan FU?

Do I think plan A may be pissing her off? Could be. I agree my WW could be thinking Why now? and seeing it as manipulation. She did comment to me one time (when she was going away for the weekend to be with OM) that "You are trying to manipulate me into loving you and it won't work". Was that from plan A or was it from my question SH told me to ask her "In the ideal scenario, would it make you happiest for you to be in love with the father of your children". I'm not sure. Either way I can see how in her wayward mindset she would think it's manipulation.

I would like to hear more from you. Not that I don't really appreciate the advise of betrayeds here, but comments from a formerly wayward (and I don't have the distain for formerly waywards like many do here. I really do understand how it can happen and I don't judge anyone for making a mistake, there are too many complicated situations in life) will help me a lot as I try to "get into her head" to understand better her feelings and what I can do to show her I understand what she is going through and want to do what I can to make our marriage "great" for both of us.

If you're so inclined, I do hope you keep up on my sitch.

SH wants me to see if she will. It would be ideal as we have timeshares in Orlando so we could do the MB weekend there and then spend some time at our timeshare, but at this point, she isn't listening to anything I say so I haven't gone there other than to say to her "I believe there is a way for both of us to be extremely happy in our marriage and I hope you'll give us that chance". She didn't respond. I have asked her 2 times for sure and maybe 3 to talk to SH. She flat out refused, but those times were in the middle of the A and since exposure day she won't talk to me more than what's necessary (like, "would you pick up some milk on the way home from work"....).

Funny thing is, with her softening anger over the weekend I was about to throw the MB weekend out there to see what she would say, but then last night and this morning, like Elton John says "the bit** is back"!!!!

HFU -

I checked the WD timeline in my situation. Cell Records are so telling.

Contact suddenly stopped after long conversation 9/28/05.

Wife did not leave the house (did not work - she was a bartender so hours and days are flexible) from 10/10/05 through 11/7/05. Very nasty and depressed - not a good time in my life. Previous month - was son's confrontation.

Contact was made 11/19/05 - I think he blew her off on that call - new GF - 8 min call.

Wife was in a depressed crud from 11/20/05 thru 12/1/05.

No SF till June 06.

Pretty crappy - follow the advice of the pros - I just stickhandled my way through this.

Thanks RW.

Looking at my WW's cell records there was a 39 minute call on 11-27 at 11:34 pm (which was the day we returned from Fla from family vacation). WW had talked to OM a couple times while we were in Fla and her mood got happy but then after that call on the 27th she got down right nasty. No calls or TM's I can tell since then. But I don't know about work. Myself, WW and OM all work for the same company. OM is a contractor in another location about 4 hours away.

If you read my earlier posts I think WW had tried to arrange a meet with OM on Dec 8, but he either didn't show up or did and told WW it was over, because when she got home that night she was even more angry than exposure day. And the very next day (9th), OM text messaged OMW out of the blue and said he didn't want a divorce and what did he need to do to make their marriage work.

So if I read your time line correctly, A probably ended 9-28, short contact 2 months later and then another couple weeks of WD.

2 1/2 months then huh? Ok, that's what I'm looking for. So now I'm about 1 1/2 months from exposure, about 1 month since last cell phone call I know of, and 3 weeks since what I think is the end of the A. Ok, I can work with info like this.

THANK YOU RW. I know I've got a long way to go, but this is exactly what I need right now. Gives me the courage to continue on with this crap. I can deal with a lot as long as I know this thing is progressing like "normal".

And a little SF would be nice now...getting lonely after 4 months....In fact, the other night OMW told me she wished we didn't live so far apart cause she would like to talk to me in person and I told her that would be DANGEROUS and she said she knew what I meant....