Thanks TMTS. And I agree, the Leaf's have no plan. I kind of like the idea of trading Sundin. Clear some salary cap room and get some young prospects for him while you can. Might hurt near term, but long term it would be good.

LaLa, I had asked the question before about going to plan B when the A seems to be over and most everyone agreed that would be a bad idea. Like I've said, if I know the A is over (or there is no physical contact) I can plan A for quite a while. Not that I will. If there is no progress after a couple months of the A being over, we'll have a discussion, but others here have said that their spouses took 6 weeks or more to get over the anger exposure and then there was the WD to get through, so I don't want to jump the gun.

And everyone here (including Dr. Harley) says WD can last as long as the A. WW's A was probably 8 months. And with the bullhead she is (and yes LaLa, I would put her at the top of the bullhead list) I can see the severe symptoms of WD lasting a little longer than most. So again, I don't want to push into plan B when a little more time on my part is all she needs.

I know sometimes my posts go back and forth. A lot of it is venting from the rollercoaster of this thing. That's why I love these boards. I can vent here and then go home and do my best plan A.

Sometimes, just sometimes there is something on t.v. that restores my faith.

Last night a commercial came on for one of the car companies and it said a few things I can't remember but then said "why is no one satisfied with what they have (or something to that affect)" and then said "Don't like your nose, get a new one, don't like your boss, find a new job, don't like your spouse, find a new one. What ever happened to commitment?" You should have seen WW after that. Her hand closest to me went up to her face and she tilted her head forward so her hair was blocking my view of her face and it was everything she could do to not lose it right there. The rest of the show she was having a hard time maintaining her composure. Man that made me smile. In fact, I'm still smiling.

Was talking to my brother this morning and we were thinking we could make another commercial, kind of like this: Gas for WW to spend weekend with OM - $90. Shopping spree at lingerie store so WW looks hot for OM - $500 - Car company commercial talking about commitment - priceless .

Back to my stich. One day of the weekend down, one to go. WW didn't do any of her special primping this morning or last night and had plain old undies/bra on, so looks like Friday night is a no go with OM. We'll see about tomorrow.

It's Sat morning and WW hasn't gone anywhere! That's a good sign. This would have been the first real chance for WW and OM to get together since early Dec so her coming home from work last night and not taking off this morning is another encouraging sign.

Last night after work I asked WW if she wanted to get something to eat. No...had a late lunch. Ok, how bout a couple drinks then? No..don't feel like it. So I sat around for a bit and decided I'd go myself. I went upstairs where WW was using the bathroom and told her though the door that I was going out for a couple of drinks and she said "ok" in a somewhat disappointed voice.

While I was out OMW TM'd me and we were chatting for a bit. I don't remember how it came up in the conversation, but I said that it's too bad WW can't see that OM was just using her. OMW said she didn't think OM was just using her, that she thinks he really did have feelings for WW but he just didn't want the same thing out of their R as WW did. That kind of made me angry. I asked OMW, If OM didn't want the same thing out of the R as WW, what else could you call it than using her? OMW replied that she thinks OM planned on continuing the A until their youngest son was out of H.S. and then would D her and be with WW. I replied, So what is holding him back now if you've told him you're going to divorce him? If he wasn't just using her he should be all over WW right now. OMW got upset and accused me of being mean to her. I told her I wasn't trying to be mean, and that maybe it just made it easier for me to deal with this if I think OM was using WW. OMW replied that she understood and that it just hurts her to think that he would throw away their marriage "just to use" someone. For her it is easier to handle thinking her H had feelings for WW. We both apologized and had a nice conversation for a while longer. I just feel like crap for what both of us are dealing with and I wish all waywards could see what their actions do to all people involved.

This all got me thinking about why do I want to believe so bad that OM was just using WW? If that's true, does it give me hope that he's really moved on and when WW gets that clue she'll start to come out of the fog? Or does it make it easier for me to handle our possible recovery? Am I just hopeful that's the case so eventually WW will figure that out she'll be more likely to recommit to the marriage?

I don't know. Guess I've got some thinking to do about my own "fog" huh?

Hi Hope,

This doesn't sound like fog to me. These are hopes based on fear which is very real. Don't beat yourself up for feeling that, but watch out for it to cross over the line and become an expectation. Hope is good, it's what keeps us all going.

I'm glad you smoothed things out with OMW that was starting to sound pretty tense. You guys want to be allies, not at each others throat.

On a happier note (well not really), Big meeting this weekend about the GM post for the Leafs. Lots of trade rumors, shake down rumors, complete rebuild rumors... just too many rumors going around for something not to happen. It's about time! I don't know how closely you follow the 'organization' but, the Leafs are not a single entity. They are part of Maple Leaf sport and Entertainment, which also owns the Raptors and the Argonauts. The majority owners are the Teachers Pension Fund. So what this means is that so long as the seats are full, who cares what the team does. Sad but true.

P.S. good job on going out on your own

H4U:

I told you to just keep the information exchanged with OMW to the needed stuff.

Your projecting the anger at OM on to her. "Your WH is "using" my W!"

It takes the blame from your WW's activities and puts them only on OM.

The OM's W is trying to understand HER world. And she KNOWS that she has a lousy husband. You just keep re-inforcing that to her. Reverse the roles for thirty seconds and think about that.

"H4U, your WW is a predator, and used my H for whatever purpose she desired. And now, by you going to Plan D with your WW, your making it easier for my WH to leave my good marriage."

Stings doesn't it?

Please keep it to the "what is OM doing this weekend, where is he, WW is here, and done this, has that resulted in these two possibly getting together?"

And OF COURSE your WW wanted MORE from the R with OM. Justifies the WHOLE reason for the A. "Well, our M was bad, and I had someone new that was going to give me a better life"

It's the FANTASY of the affair.

Your exposure of WHAT the OM was doing to OMW destroyed the fantasy for OM, and he wants to get as FAR from your WW as possible.

And here you are today. KEEP following the advice from SH. It's gotten you FAR.

And believing that your WW was a "victim"? That will delay recovery. Because your WW needs to OWN her OWN ACTIONS. She wasn't a "victim" You were. And allowing her to crawl under that rock: "The OM made me do it" doesn't address her boundary issues. And her ability to fall again to ANOTHER OM.

About the TV commercial? Saw the same one. I did get a better wife. She got a better husband. But I still wouldn't buy a Hyundai.

LG

Thanks LG. Don't think for one minute that I think this was all OM's fault. In fact, I am so extremely pissed at WW that I'm not sure if she does recommit to the M that I will be able to forgive her. Won't know until we get there (if we do). A lot of it will depend on her. The stupid thing is we used to always talk about how men in general are pigs and will do/say anything to get in a woman's pants. And she let it happen. Sitting here typing this my hands are shaking I'm so angry with her.

Actually I don't hold it against OM too much. Do I think he's a pig? Of course. Would I like to give him the a** kicking he deserves? Damn straight. But he's a predator who does this for a living. 4-5 times that OMW knows about so you know there are probably many more she doesn't know about. That's kind of what makes me think the A is over. Why would he want to continue with WW now that she's too much trouble for him. OMW has told me in the past that everytime she's found out about one of his A's that he has ended it and moved on. I'm guessing that's the case now.

But WW fell for it. Thats the part that makes me sick. Here's an alcoholic, serial cheating, wife/kids abuser and WW fell for it hook, line and sinker. Beyond all the issues we'll have to deal with is how could she be so stupid to fall for this, even after one of the guys that she works with warned her to "be careful OM is always fishing". So she knew he was a player and she fell for it anyway.

Was talking with OMW yesterday and she said she thinks WW is taking advantage of me with the way she's treating me. She has a point. I feel the same way daily. But I guess it's back to the MB way. You feel like a doormat kissing a waywards a** when they should be the one groveling at your feet. But it doesn't work that way huh?

Ok, done venting. Yesterday WW was ok. Ignored me somewhat but wasn't terribly angry. She did spend some time in the bedroom and later went out to get DS some money and took a drive.

Let me ask everyone here a question. I was doing laundry yesterday and WW said to me "Don't do my laundry, I'll take care of it". I told her I was already putting a load of jeans in for me and DS so I wasn't going to not throw her jeans in too. I went out to watch some FB at a sports bar and invited WW along. She hesitated but then said no. When I was getting ready to come home I TM'd her and asked if she wanted me to bring anything home for her and her TM said "No" and that's it. Do waywards not want their betrayed to do anything for them when they're beginning to come out of the fog? My friend D said that for her, when she was beginning to figure it out she hated that her H was still treating her decent. I think Lexxxy said earlier on this thread that she hated Plan A. Is that what I'm dealing with? For any former Waywards, did you hate plan A but then once you'd figured it out you changed your thinking?

Ok, done rambling.

Thanks TMTS. Don't get too much hockey "news" in my new location. No CBC on my satelite, which I miss terribly. Get all the Blue Jackets news I want, but don't really care about them. I knew the Maple Leafs were part of a conglomerate (sp?) but didn't know the details. I think I remember the deal with the teachers pension fund, but like I said, haven't had too much Leafs news the last year or so. Sometimes I think the Leafs are like the Cubs. Lovable losers. Us die hard fans will watch/attend no matter what they do.

I appreciate your comment about the whole OM using WW thing. With his alcohol problem, I think he may "think" he has feelings for all the women he cheats with, but when it's discovered he cuts tail and runs. Like LG said, once it's out in the open, the fantasy is gone and he moves on. Sounds like he's more addicted to the "fantasy" of these things (as well as alcohol) so once it's exposed that is shattered and he's on to the next "fantasy".

Thanks again. Keep me posted on the Leafs developments.

H4U:

Glad your getting pissed.

OM Did enjoy the chase and the conquest, and the benefits. While he could get them. Don't concern yourself with him anymore. He is something you scraped off your shoe, now.

The problem, and you post highlighted this:

Why did WW ALLOW it to happen?

A question you might not EVER get a proper answer too. Your WW may never fully articulate this too you. SHE may never know all the WHY's

Hopefully, you have learned since joining MB ALL the dynamics in marriage relationships that could have caused the W doors to open for the A.

During Recovery, Both of you will learn how to close those doors, so that it can't happen again.

But your not there yet.

Your WW is in WD. It will take her whatever period of time to pass thru it.

During WD, she has to face the demons of WHAT she did. And HOW she can ever make it up to you. Among ten-twenty other things.

But keep doing her laundry. Asking her out. Being pleasant, and available.

This causes her pain. Because she HURT you SO BAD, yet you still are being KIND to her. Blows up ALL her reasons for having the A. That you didn't care about her, and that you should hate her, etc.

So, keep doing her laundry. Your not kissing her A$$. You have someone, that you LOVE, who has made a terrible mistake. If, she had been in an auto accident, and had been hurt, you would be doing all the same things, until she was better. However, if you look at as temporary insanity, then you still need to nurse her back into heatlh. And you would be doing the same things. Until she was better. She's not better yet. It's coming. And it might be a slow, steady increase, or it might be a big change one day, and nothing for a long time, and then another big change. OK?

You have 20 some years invested in this marriage. Your WW started her affair about this time last year. You have only been really fighting this less than 6 months. So, this A has consumed less than 5% of your married life, and the fight has been only half of that. Think about that. It took your WW 19 years to fall into an A, it will take some time to climb out.

No magic wands, or magic 2x4's to fix this. Only time, and consistent effort. Stay on course with SH.

My only thought is to make your self more available to talk to her. And to have the 15 year old DS involved as well. Play some board games, cards, trivial pursuit, or non-adversarial activities like that to increase interactions with your spouse that are non-threatening. That soften the encounters and allows conversation and dealing with you. My thought is your aloofness needs to show some cracks for her to "look into" and see you some more. But, that is just my opinion. Consult with SH about this.

Otherwise, your doing well.

LG

Thanks LG. Not sure this was a 2x4 but I could sure use one.

Feeling really down yesterday and today. I'm struggling with the emotion of whether I even want to try to make this work. Found myself really dis-liking WW yesterday.

Don't know if I let myself fall victim to the dreaded expectations. I think that may be the case. With WW not going anywhere or spending more than an hour away from home Saturday, I'm 90% convinced that the A is over. So with that being the case am I letting myself fall into this expectation that she should be waking up and realizing what she's done and recommitting to the marriage or am I finally begin to consider everything she's done and the way she's treated me since DDay and that's why I'm so down?

Or it could be that yesterday afternoon I had a pretty bad trigger that really affected me the rest of the night and this morning.

Or....who knows? I don't want to blow it if I'm making progress, but I'm also tired of getting NOTHING for all my efforts. I know, I know....stuff the taker in me, but it's just so darn hard. Sometimes I find myself wondering if it's worth it.

Sorry you are down, Hope!

You are at the beginning of WD, so I would still expect it to take some time to get to a point of realization from her of what she has done. I know you are down and need some support, and that you wish it would come from her, but it's very doubtful.

What about your family and friends? Can you lean on them for supprt? You know, part of the reason they say Plan A is for YOU with NO EXPECTATIONS is because the BS is totally on their own, with no help from the WS. It is a time when the BS must fill all their needs themselves, as well as the WSs. I cannot imagine how hard that must be, and my heart goes out to you.

I hope you can recover and have a good day! My prayers are with you!

Thanks LaLa. I appreciate your concern.

One problem I have is I don't have any family or friends within 2.5 hours of me. I talk to my brother and to my friend D on a daily basis, which helps some, but it's not the same as being together with them.

I know plan A is about no expectations, and I know I'm left carrying the load of filling my own EN's as well as those WW will let me (which aren't many). That's what I struggle with. Am I going to be so jaded towards WW if/when she comes out of the fog that I won't care enough to want to make it work. If the A was still going on, I would say it's time for plan B for me, but with it seemingly over that seems like it would be a mistake.

I'll be ok. I'll bounce back. Always do. I guess I just let there be some unreasonable expectations creep into my mind and I'm down because of it. Just don't know how much more I can take.

That's possible. And it does happen. I wish you had more of a support system. Only you know when you should Plan A/B. If you think she will start coming around now that the A is over, maybe you should hold off for a while. See if she'll let you be there for her. All you can do is create a safe environment for her, meaning she feels like she can talk to you and lean on you while in WD.

Thanks LaLa.

I do think waiting a little longer is the right move, it's just so hard to keep up with getting nothing in return. I try to show her she's safe any way I can. I've been leaving her little notes about once a week telling her I love her and I'm here for her etc. The first few she tore up and threw away, but the last one she just balled up and threw away. Baby steps I say.

WW is such a bullhead. That's one of the things I see being trouble in our recovery (if we get there). Some things I've seen the last week give me hope that she's figuring this out, but she's just so darn bullheaded it'll be hard for her to admit it to me. With her less than ideal childhood she has always been a kind of "I don't need anyone, I can do this myself" kind of person. It's one thing I love about her, that independence, but I also hate about her because she won't let me in except on rare occasions. I would kill for her to let me in right now.

Guess I just need to continue to be there and when she's ready, she'll talk. I'm already feeling better than I was this morning. Maybe that trigger is finally wearing off or maybe my MB peeps just helped prop up my resolve one more time. Whatever happens, I'll always be in debt to my "friends" here!

Oh, well, GEE, I know NOTHING about being BULLHEADED (harhar)! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have always had the same attitude. Much of it was b/c my parents controlled everything I did...boy, could I tell you some stories about that! So, any time I felt that vibe from anyone (whether it was real or imagined) my guns were out and blazin'! She sounds a little harsher than me...I cringed at her throwing away your love notes. Whew..I would definitely prepare for the long haul, here, especially in the WD stage. Just keep trying a little here and there...it's all you can do.

Can you do some charity work or find a church that you like? Something to better yourself, get your mind off things and cheer you up? I think I read that you were going to start working out again...maybe some boxing or martial arts would help alleviate stress and also make you feel more powerful. Dunno...just suggestions!

Hope:

One caution about other outside activities.

It takes you away from where you need to be.

At Home. And Available for your WIFE.

As weird as it seems, SHE NEEDS you.

You going away and not being available, (you were gone alot before, right?) would just play into that.

Exercise, Yes. Keep doing that, you lost alot of weight, and your self-confidence goes up from that.

Charity work? Not until you have really started recovery, and something that W can attend with you.

When's your next appointment with SH?

The notes? Keep doing them, but consult with SH about other ways to interact with W. Lovebusters happen when you do things that destroy her love for you. To keep reminding her that you love her, are thinking about her, and know a way back to a better relationship, is not lovebusting, its showing her a way back. To acceptance.

Your wife isn't bull-headed, WW is. For her to "break down" and just let everything "go back to the same" Pre-A just isn't going to happen.

WHAT has to happen is W needs to accept that all this stuff WAS a mistake. And that takes time. That's the WD phase. And that is where she is now. At the front end.

Remember, she has a temporary insanity. (Permanent insanity >> your out the door, ok?) But temp insanity means that she can come back to you and your willing to work thru this. Big difference in outlook.

Like LaLa, your WW needs to shed that skin, and return to W skin. Much will be different then.

Decide, right now, that you WILL stick this out. You have NOT been in it long. (Although, you probably think it has been forever.)

Because you held together, and found it worthy to fight during the MOST DIFFICULT times. To start looking for the exit strategy now "If she doesn't come around soon" is begging for disaster...

Call and make another appointment with SH.

And ask him what you should be writing to WW NOW. He's the expert.

LG

Thanks LG. You always pick me up, just when I need it. Been feeling down the last couple days (as you can tell from my posts) and I've been thinking about why.

I've begun to realize that (I think I mentioned before) that in my mind I kind of expected some kind of change in her once I became confident the A was over. And you're helping me come back to the reality that the A ending was just the first step. Now is when an affective plan A can have the most affect.

One thing I hope someone on here can help me with. I've read on MB that during WD there isn't much point in talking about our relationship. The last time we talked about our relationship at all was on exposure night and that's when WW said "no matter if OM is out of the picture or not, WE'RE OVER". Given that and the seemingly current WD, when do I bring up the subject of where we're going again? I've communicated to her a couple of times the last 3 weeks that I still believe in us and that if she would talk to SH with me that I think we could be extremely happy again, but when do I have the "where are we going" talk? Do I wait for a while longer to let her get through WD more? Do I wait and let her bring up the subject? Do I just continue to let her know in little ways that I'm here for her and believe in us and then let her open up when she's ready?

Thanks in advance for the advise.

Got another question I need help with.

Next week I have to go out of town for 3 nights for work. In my situation would this be time for a mini-plan B? WW isn't talking much to me anyway, should I not call/talk to her while I'm out of town?

I've got a card that I'm going to leave her when I leave Monday morning saying a number of things, last of which is "I'm here for you".

Or should I try to call her each evening and see if she'll respond in any way? I can see where even making that effort would be good, but maybe not talking to her at all would have somewhat of a plan B moment?

Opinions please.

Hey Hope! Is there any way you can speak to the Harleys? I think they can help you get a plan of action better than many of us here.

The advice I have seen over and over again from the vets is that until your WW comes to certain conclusions herself (what she did was wrong/that she has re-written history to justify her actions, etc) there is really no point in R talks. That all you can really do is become the best H you can be and create that safe environment for her to be able to open up to you and lean on you when she is ready. How long you wait for that to happen is completely up to you. In essence, I have perceived that Plan A is for you to improve yourself as a person in the hopes that the WS will notice and believe that the changes are permanent (assuming changing yourself is even necessary, as WSs will make you out to be the "bad guy" and see the R as "being over" even b4 the A- regardless of whether it is true at all). At the end of Plan A, when your love bank is almost empty, the BS goes to Plan B with the idea that they still want the M to recover, but that the abuse from the WS has gotten to the point that the BS can no longer tolerate the abuse, and must remove themselves from the situation to protect their sanity and preserve any love they still hold for the WS.

So, no, unless you are ready to go complete Plan B, you should not do a trial PB while you are gone. Unless it is the decision you have come to for the above reasons, and are going to completely remove yourself from the sitch for those reasons, you should not do a trial PB. At this point, if you are still OK with keeping up Plan A for a while, a "trial" PB will only reinforce her justifications that she is still carrying about the A and the state of your M b4 the A.

If, however, you are NOT OK with the continued abuse, and have reasched a point where you can no longer tolerate being with her, then Plan B would be the next course of action. Noone can decide this but you. And noone would judge you for your decision either way!

I would say, you call her every day and try to make contact with light/small talk and refrain from any heavy conversations for a while (no R or A talk). They are futile at this point. Maybe some vets can address what exactly you can do to try to bring her around, but I don't want to go there, yanno!

Please take care of yourself and be well!!

Well, last night was interesting to say the least. WW and I talked for the first time in a couple of months.

Here's the highlights.

Caught DS smoking again and talked to him about it. He said it helped him deal with our pending divorce. I asked him if WW had told him we're getting divorced and he said no, it just helped him deal with the anxiety/tension of WW and me.

I decided it was time for the "talk" even though I know WW is still in WD.

I asked WW if she was planning on leaving. She said no, I don't have anywhere to go so she had no plans on leaving before DS graduates from H.S. I told her if she had no plans on leaving why not try saving our marriage? I also told her I knew she wasn't happy and neither was I and that I couldn't keep living the way we are but weren't our kids worth us trying to work this out? She replied our kids mean everything to me. I then said, if our kids mean everything to you, why not try.

I tried again to get her to talk with SH and she flat out said NO. Won't read the books, won't watch the DVD's, won't talk to him.

She tried to blame me for pulling "stunts" set up by SH the last couple months. I asked her what she was talking about and she said my hurting OMW by telling her what was going on. I said, wait a minute, how is my telling her what you and OM were doing and what was going on in their marriage somehow my "hurting" her? I said I think that she really needed to look at herself and OM if she wanted to see who was doing the hurting. WW actually stopped me and told me that she knew what they did was wrong and they had hurt a lot of people. WOW! And admission by a WW that they were wrong.

I said to her I knew she was hurting with the A ending, but if she would go NC those feelings would begin to fade and her feelings for me would begin to return. She never said she's never had those feelings for me in the past so how could they return like she has said to me before. I thought that was huge. She then said how do you know if I'm talking to OM anymore? I said I didn't know, are you? WW said, I'm not going to say. I asked why not and she said if I tell you I am you're going to be mad and if I tell you I haven't been talking to him you're going to be excited and think we're ok. I told her she was right I would be excited, but only because the only way we're going to have a chance is if she goes NC.

I don't remember how it came up but I said something about OM wanting to work on his marriage with OMW and she actually seemed surprised at that statement.

There's a whole lot more, but that's the gist of it. WW said she didn't know what she was going to do and I asked if she would please tell me when she decides? She said "you'll be the first to know". I then asked her if she would just be honest with me and she asked about what? I said "how bout everything"? She just kind of looked at me.

The rest of the night went pretty ok. We actually laughed some and did talk with each other about other things. When I went to bed I told her goodnight and she said good night. It was pretty softly said, but said none the less.

So now my question. Can a marriage recover from an A if only one person is willing to talk to SH or do the work from MB? my concern is that I'll be left doing all the work trying to save our marriage and she will just let me. I told her that I had a lot of stuff to deal with and didn't think I could do it on my own. She said continue talking to SH if you want, but I'm not.

Is part of her reluctance to talking with SH because she's still in WD? Have others here had a wayward spouse refuse to talk with SH while in WD but then agree later when the fog begins to lift more?

All in all some encouraging signs but I know we've got a long way to go.

IMO, you are too "available" to her.

She completely disregards your feelings as if you have none.
She is so confident that you will be her back-up...that she feels no pressure to placate you at all.

She's even worse than a cake-eater. At least cake-eaters try to keep both men interested and hopeful, while they are deciding between them.

Her surprise about OM working on his marriage leads me to believe they are still in contact. I don't sense her withdrawal.

Also:

WW said she didn't know what she was going to do and I asked if she would please tell me when she decides? She said "you'll be the first to know".

doormat.

Take charge Hope. Be the man. If she doesn't get on track soon let her know maybe YOU will decide SHE isn't worth it.
Maybe YOU will decide SHE needs to leave.