Thanks TMTS. I've been following your situation also. We're both in a pickle aren't we?

Got a question for any FBS out there. If it happened to you, what did you do when it seemed the A was over and you were making progress but you found yourself strongly disliking your WS?

As best I can tell (if you've been reading along) that the A is physically over and the EA is over for the OM (if you believe OMW) but maybe not for WW. NC may be in place, maybe not (we live 250 miles from OM) so if there is contact its only been phone/IM/email from work. WW is angry/depressed a lot, but sometimes responsive to me like nothings wrong. SH and I both feel like there is progress being made, but just the last couple of days I've really begun to (if I can use the word) hate WW.

I know, I know, dangerous place (2x4 please LG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />). I don't want to blow it now, but this weekend especially, I've really had a hard time thinking any good thoughts about WW.

If it happened to you FBS's, what did you do to get past that and continue on in plan A activities? If the A was still going on I would be ready for plan B, but I don't think that's a good idea now given the circumstances.

Help!

Hey Hope! I just wanted to pop in and say HAPPY BIRTHDAY YESTERDAY!!! I am so sorry I didn't see that last night or I would have told you then. I am glad she managed to bring her Royal Fogginess to dinner for your special day. How gracious of her!

Honestly, Hope, you cannot concentrate on what she is thinking or why she is doing this and that. She is lost right now and nothing she does makes any sense, ya know! You trying to make sense of it will only drive YOU insane as well!

You know you are a great father, and a great person in general...you don't need her validation for that! Be proud of yourself for all that you have accomplished thus far. You are standing up and fighting for your M, and if she is successful in mucking up your plan and you begin to LB or hate her, then she has won. She WANTS you to hate her right now. She can't stand herself, why should you love her? If you lash out or internalize her junk, then she gets to say-see, this is why we can't be happy, etc. She gets to shift the blame to YOU. Don't let her get to you...you are stronger than that, Hope!

I hope the rest of your weekend goes better, I'm pulling for you...we ALL are!

Thanks LaLa. I appreciate your boosts! They really help.

I'm out of town for 3 nights so won't be much to report, but I do have one question I hope someone can help with.

Was talking with OMW yesterday and she said OM and her had a conversation with OM telling her he wasn't sure why he had done it and he knew he was a bad husband and could she forgive him, blah, blah, blah...but here's the part where I have the question. OM told OMW that it was WW that wanted to have the A and he really didn't want to do it but she was so insistent that he just broke down. He also said he doesn't love WW, never did, blah, blah, blah.....I know that is all crap as I saw his text messages telling WW he could make her happy forever and how he loved her and how it drove him crazy knowing the "love of his life" was sleeping in bed with her husband, blah, blah, blah....

I would love for WW to have this information so she could begin to see what a scumbag OM is and maybe this would aid in easing her withdrawal. Anyone have any suggestions on how I could get this info to WW in a way that she would be receptive to hear it? I know my telling her straight out that OM is a scumbag and is trying to blame her for everything probably wouldn't work, but is there a way for me to give her this info so she'll be receptive?

could you allow her to "find" it? Either an email or text? You're right, telling her will do no good. However, she already has enough information to make this assessment and still hasn't, so its questionable whether the effort to engineer this "find" is worth it.

Here's an idea...long shot, but the OMW may be ALL for it to keep them apart. Have her come to this site and read up on the NC letter (or let her know about it yourself). Maybe she will have her WH write it and she sends it as part of their own recovery. If he wants to stay with his wife and is trying to win back her affection, he will do it (especially if he really feels that way about you W and the A, which like you said, is probably a crock of [censored]). The other thing is it may force OMW to really examine how serious her WH is about their reconciliation. Did you tell OMW about the text you found with him stating his undying love? OMW deserves to see this so that she doesn't buy his balogna and possibly makes the NC letter a condition of their recovery...

Unless the words come directly from him, your W will likely spin anything into "him just trying to keep the peace at home until we can be together" or some such nonsense. I mean, he has told her to leave him alone (didn't he?), so I think going the route of OMW making him send a NC letter would be great!

Thanks TYK, LaLa. I agree with you TYK that if I engineer it that it will probably be a waste of time. But I kind of like your NC idea LaLa.

I've mentioned NC to OMW before and she's said she's pressed OM hard about never talking to WW again and he assures OMW that he's not talking to WW. Part of me believes that, but another part thinks, more lies....but I've never mentioned it to OMW in the context of their recovery. I think I'll bring it up at the next appropriate time I talk with OMW.

And yes, when OMW told me the BS that OM was saying I told her not to believe it for one minute and then told her why (based on the text messages I've seen in the past). He's just trying to cover his own a** with OMW.

Don't know if I've mentioned it before, but SH thinks that OM is addicted to the chase and danger of A's and when his BW finds out he ends them as the excitement of the A is over. OMW has told me that with the previous A's of his that has been the case, so that (among other things I've previously mentioned) is what makes me think that NC may be in place.

I just read on another thread where someone had posted that a WW going through WD and not yet re-commiting to her marriage is going through the thoughts in her mind that she's spent the previous year (or whatever time) in this fantasy that their BH is the devil, which is what they have to do to justify their A and now that the A is over for them to agree to make their marriage work would mean that all the BS they made up about their H is a lie and would mean that they are nothing but a wh*re and the wayward has to come to grips with that before they can recommit to the M. Seems like that may be where my WW might be right now. She's admitted to me that what she did was wrong and hurt people, but she's not ready to make the M work. Guess I just need to keep plugging along in plan A until she wakes up.

Quick update. Just got home from my business trip. Tues and Wed nights I called WW and she didn't answer. I left messages and she didn't return my calls.

When I got home I noticed that WW didn't throw away the card I'd left her Monday morning before I left on the trip. That's a surprise!

Talked to OMW yesterday and again today. She's fed up with OM. He won't answer any of her questions, won't discuss anything about the A, won't read any of the marriage books she's asked him to. She's ready to see a lawyer. That doesn't help my situation as I could see OM contacting WW when he gets the papers and the A is off and running again. But we'll see.

Nothing much else to say. We'll see how WW is when she gets home from work. I'll update in the morning.

Last night was interesting.

WW got home from work and was pretty cold. I asked her how her week was and I got a "fine". Asked if anything different happened at work this week and got a "no". Told her about my year end performance review and she didn't say a word. Told her about a couple other things and she didn't say anything.

A while later she got online and was looking at medical websites for "depression". Found that kind of interesting.

A bit later she was upstairs and her mom called her cellphone. I answered and talked with her for a bit and told her I would have WW call her when she came down. WW comes down and I tell her that her mom called and wants her to call back. WW says "you do know my cell phone has voice mail, right"? WTF is that? Anyway, I say "yes, I thought maybe it was DS and when I saw it was your mom I just answered and talked for a bit".

She talked to her mom for a bit (actually laughing a bit, etc) and then we did talk about a couple things fairly normally. Not long conversations, but at least kind of normal. But the thing that gets me is while she was talking to her mom she's telling her about all this stuff that's happened at work this week, etc, but she won't begin to discuss anything like that with me when I try to start a conversation about it.

Ok, so need some advise. Is her looking online at depression a sign that she's in WD? For any waywards out there, when you were in WD could you turn it on and off depending on who you were talking with? I mean, WW will be "normal" with DS's/mom/sister, but when it comes to me, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

This is getting to me. I don't want to blow it in the 4th qtr of the A ending/WD, but I'm finding it harder and harder to take. Last night I had to catch myself from just saying "if you are so unhappy, there's the door, no one is stopping you". But I don't want to blow it if it is WD, I just don't know if it is, or if there is still contact and she's never going to get past her anger/depression towards me. I kind of feel like she's making some progress (last week she admitted what she and OM had done was wrong and had hurt people and her angry times seem to be fewer and fewer), but I'm just so tired of the disrespect. Sometimes I find myself fantasizing about moving on to someone who will love me and treat me with the respect I deserve.

How did others make it through this without BLOWING UP?

I didn't. I blew up, several times. Last blow up I pretty much did what you were fantasizing about, "there's the door honey, you can recommit to our marriage, or you can leave". It was more involved than that, but that was the gist. I was DONE, she could choose to walk, or stay, but I wasn't living like that anymore. I was so tired that I had decided that one way or another, it was time for change.

Not recommended MB tactics, but it worked for me.

Thanks TYK. I had kind of one of those moments last week. Told her that I loved her and wanted our marriage to work, but I couldn't do it alone and I'm not going to continue living like this. Told her if she wouldn't talk to/see OM that given a few months her feelings for me would return. The next 3 nights went pretty well, but it's been depression city since. Makes me wonder if she decided NC that night and now she's starting to feel it?

I think she got the point. I didn't do it as an AO or anything, just matter of fact. I just know I will not go on this way forever, but I don't want to blow it now.

Seriously, how long is this crap going to go on? Last night after work I asked WW if she wanted to go out and get something to eat? "uh, no, not hungry". Ok, how bout a couple of drinks "uh, no". Both responses kind of sarcastic.

I go out for dinner, by myself, AGAIN. Get home a couple hours later and WW made dinner for herself.

It's been over 2 months since exposure. It's been 1 1/2 months since the last physical contact between WW and OM. No idea about phone/IM/email contact. How long is she going to keep hanging on to it being MY fault that her life is a mess? I can plan A till the cows come home at home, but it just doesn't seem to make any difference. How long am I going to have to keep this up before she'll get a clue and figure this out?

On a side note, at the conference I was at this week they handed out a book called "Leadership and Self-Deception". Anyone read it? Even though it's target is Supv's/Mgr's it is a really interesting read. Talks about how through your own self betrayal/self deception you can actually influence others in your life to treat you the exact way you don't want them to be. While reading the book I found quite a few similarities between the concepts of the book and MB principals. You can only control you and by your own actions and attitudes towards those you work with and those you love you either create exactly what you do or don't want to happen based on your attitudes towards them. It's kind of a complex read but may be worth while if you want another take on human interactions.

Talk to ya'll soon.

Hope:

When are you going to understand that you are the enemy?

Your WW spending hours on the phone with her MOTHER? telling her MOTHER about what's happening at work, and not doing that with you?

Because your the enemy.

You took away her candy.

She is still wayward, and in withdrawal. Until she really passes through this, then this is what you get.

And, let me ask you this, does her MOTHER now about ther affair? Probably not, huh?

If she did, what do you think that conversations with MOM might be like right now?

Do you think it would help your W beat the WW one?

You have been in contact with SH, and he seems to be giving you excellent advice. HE has been advocating a "roll-out" of exposure to create pressure that ends the A. That has happened.

Now, it just you and SH fighting to bring your W back into the marriage.

Many weapons have been removed from your arsenal in that fight.

I think you were scheduled for a new appointment for SH, and you need it.

Ask him who should be brought in to help you fight this. SH, Mom, Kids, Your Friend D, etc.

There is no "Switch" that you can throw and return this M to normal. Correcting your W, and making everything "right". There were issues in your Marriage prior to the A, and thats why there was an A. So going back to that, isn't what you want. You want to go to a NEW M environment.

And THAT is what you ned to show to your W.

She doesn't want to talk? Fine. Talk with your DS when W is there. Get her involved. The FAMILY is the ONE THING that is ALWAYS in your favor. Interacting between you, DS and her builds on that. Play cards or board games. DS MAY be hesitant, because that isn't cool, but you have to enlist him in this fight.

You answering her phone and talking to her Mother? Reinforces that. Certainly would piss her off, but, OM would NEVER be able to do that.

Maybe it was just a vent above. Maybe it would make you feel better to do the "do this, or the door" routine. Maybe your getting closer to Plan B. That's to be determined. Please continue consulting with SH.

Plan stuff with DS and invite WW. It up to WW to decline to participate, but your job to be available.

LG

Hope

There may have to be a "come to jesus" meeting in another month if there is no change.

I recall telling my wife that I would like to have a wife and not a room mate. I don't need a room mate since I can afford to live on my own. I stole that line from this forum - source unknown. For some reason - she understood what I said and things started to change for the better slowly.

Hopefully this is just a vent. Better to vent here than shoot out an AO live.

Well LG, RW, are you guys fortune tellers or what. Yesterday my situation took a radical turn. MyRev would be proud.

WW had a hair appt at 10:30 yesterday. Shows up home at 5:30. Wouldn't answer her cell phone. I asked where she was and she said "out". I asked what she did and she said "nothing". Asked who she was with, "no one". I said, "if you didn't do anything, weren't with anyone and did nothing, why won't you tell me what you really did. She just had this sh*t eatin smirk on her face. Decided right then I wasn't going to put up with this disresepct any longer.

Won't post the whole conversation, but here are the basics:

I told WW that I wouldn't continue to live this way. I refuse to live in a loveless marriage. Told her I knew she was still in contact with OM and probably was with him today and it was either NC and work on our marriage or she could move out (plan B time!).

I got all the classic fog babble there is. I tried the reverse babble and at least some of it worked because after a couple of the comments she looked at me and said "huh"?

Fog babble classics heard yesterday:

WW: I don't know why you think this has anything to do with OM.

ME: If our problems have nothing to do with OM, go NC and give us a chance.

WW: I've never loved you.

ME: So when we got married and then renewed our vows and last Jan on my birthday in the card you got me you said "I love you very very much" were all just lies?" Its funny you never realized you never loved me until you started scre*ing OM.

WW: This isn't all about you.

ME: If this was all about me, why am I still here? You keep saying this isn't all about me like I can never find someone else to love and care for me. I guarantee you I will find someone to be happy with so if this was all about me why am I still here? If there is anyone who is only thinking of themselves it's you.

I could go on and on. I kept asking her "would you agree that our kids would be better off with two parents who are in love with each other?" She wouldn't answer but tried to say "our kids are the most important thing to me". So I said, "if our children are the most important thing in the world to you, why won't you go NC and give us a chance?" She never answered that question once.

I told her what OMW told me last week about OM claiming she was the one that wanted the A and he really didn't but WW was so insistant that he finally broke down and gave in. She asked how I knew that, was I talking to OMW. I said, "yes I am". WW says "why should I go NC with OM if you're talking to OMW?" I replied "OMW and I aren't sleeping together".

I told her that if she would go NC that I would work on our marriage for however long it took and she said "you're going to be working on it by yourself". I told her a number of times throughout the night that if she would go NC and give us some time her feelings for me would return and a couple of times she had tears in her eyes when I said that.

This went on and on. I didn't make any AO's, I'm sure there were some DJ's in there, but I tried to keep those to a minimum. Never raised my voice. She finally picked up the newspaper and acted like she was reading it. I told her I refused to live in a marriage with 3 people in it and she needed to make a choice, OM or me. And if she refuses NC and working on our marriage that she needs to find somewhere else to live. I told her that I couldn't make her do anything and I don't want her to feel anything she doesn't feel, but she knew that us being in love and happy with each other would be the best for everyone involved. And you should have seen her face when I said "and DS will stay here, he needs a stable household to live in and this house is the most stable thing he can have". She looked shocked at that. I gave her about 10 minutes to think on this and then said "so what are we doing?" WW says "do I have to decide right now?" I told her "no, of course not, but I'm not going to continue to take this pain and disrespect so she needs to figure out what she's going to do".

I know it wasn't very MB, but her blatant disrespect and obvious contact with OM put me in plan FU mode. And the funny thing is that I felt such relief when I went to bed. I'm going to call SH and see what he recommends as far as further exposure. Part of me thinks she'll tell me she wants to work on it and then try to be extra sneaky with the A.

Thats about it. I could go on and on with her fog babble and my responses, but you get the drift. There were a couple of times that with her smart a** little smirk on her face I found myself not caring one way or another if it works out or not. That's when I knew it was time for plan B as my love bank balance is teetering on the brink of going into red.

And a couple more things. Was talking with OMW after I went to bed and she said she thought they were together yesterday as OM has been calling/TMing their kids every day for over a week (since OMW won't answer his calls/TM's). Then yesterday none of them had heard anything from him. She also sent him a text after we started talking asking him "if he had a good time today?" and she never got a response.

Thing is, even if they weren't together yesterday I can't take her disrespect any longer. And when I asked her about being in contact with OM she wouldn't answer so I know that they are still in contact and our M will never have a chance while that's going on so I felt I had to push it. We'll see what happens. All I know is last night was the first night in 6 months that I've slept through the night without waking up. I guess for me, this was the right way to handle it.

H4Us-

Our situations seem eerily similar in many ways. I had a nearly identical talk with my WW last night, so it will be interesting to see how they respond.

Good for you. I'll be thinking and praying for you.

Thanks 14th. I was just reading your thread also. It does seem similiar doesn't it?

You'll be in my thoughts and prayers also, as are all BS's here.

Hope.

Sorry to hear about the contact. But I guess no surprise. The big surprise for her iwas that you stood up this time and held her to account.

I think you handled your conversation well. You were close to needing a meeting with her. The smirks and crap is tough to handle - I like what was said on the 14's thread that the M power has passed hands.

Looks like it is getting close to time for you to kick her off the fence

Anyway you can put some financial security pressure on the OM ? Like perhaps have a chat with his bosses. I recall he is contractor in your company.

Hope,

I feel for you buddy... You and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers...

Good Job ... I think you did GREAT!!! There are times when you simply can't take anymore and you have to draw a line in the dirt ... that line will be in different places for different BH's, but we all know when we've reached it, and its a great feeling to stand up for yourself to preserve your own self respect.

I think it speaks volumes that you finally got a good nights sleep after setting your own boundaries about what you will accept going forward, and I would be very surprised if your WW doesn't start looking at you from a different more positive perspective.

Again ... GREAT JOB!!!