I can sure use some advice on this. I have been married for 7 years and have two children age 4 and 2. I thought for most of our marriage things where going along well. I have a great job and my wife stays at home with the kids. At the beggining of this year my wife began to become very distant. I begin to question her and in Feb she told me that she was not real happy with the way things have been going between us.<P>She said the usual in that I did not pay attention, crticized her, and did not make her feel like an equal. Much of this was probably true and it gave me cause to take a hard look at myself.<P>I picked up a bunch of books and tried to become a better husband and father to our family. But this did not seem to help. Through the spring she became more and more distant even somewhat nasty. We I contiued to ask her what was wrong she told me that she had a big wall up and it was hard for it to come down. I tried to understand and tried to be even better while also trying to give her space.<P>During the beginning of the summer I noticed that she seemed to have developed a strong friendship with a stay at home dad across the street. They where in play group together and since the kids where the same age they seemed to hang around a lot together. In July of I pulled some phone records and found that she had been spending in excess of 2 to 3 hours most days when I was at work talking with him on the phone. Some conversations where for over two hours stright mind you we have children 4 and 2. I have never been able to get her attention for that long.<P>When I asked her about them she said that it was a friendship and that she has had a lot of male friends in the past. I showed her the article by Dr. Harley about oppisite sex friends and she said that is does not apply to her. Also during the summer we stopped having sex for about 4 months.<P>For the first month I decided not to pressure here about it because I wanted to be more understanding about things. Then after the 2 nd month I asked her about it and she said that she needed to be emotionally connected with me. <P>In June we began to go to counseling to work through the "issues". We did begin to talk a lot about things though nothing really seemed to get resolved. In August of this year I got a call from a distant relative that told me one of his wife's friends told him that she thought my wife was having an affair with "Mr Mom" (this lady was in the same preschool with Mr Mom's kid and mine daughter).<P>I pressed him to ask this person if they saw this person saw something. He went back to her and she said no but that it seemed like they where really close. I found it strange that someone would make that strong of a comment. Well that forced me to pull phone records from the beginning of the year. Well the pattern was the same phone calls whenever I was not around and usually her first call of the day. An average of two hours with just her outbound calls (I don't know how many calls he may have placed). I confronted her again and again much denial. I really pressed her and she told me that I would never let this go and our problems where about us and not her friendship with him.<P>I then confronted him and told him that I did not like what he was doing. He said that they where just good friends and that he just enjoyed the conversation. I told him that if it continued he and I would have it out and I would go to his wife. This was in August.<P>We have continued the consuling sessions together and seperate. The big issue is that nothing seems to be getting resolved. I am trying to be better but it does not seem to work. My wife says that she still loves me but has a wall built up and it is keeping distance between us. Does not trust me and finds it hard to talk right now. When we do talk nothing seems to get well. Both of us seem to be stuck.<P>She is pertty convincing in telling me that there was nothing there with her friend. Keep in mind she never talked to any of her other friends for more the 10 minutes. Sex is forced and she is really not into it (though this has been a pattern for awhile).<P>I need to understand how to become unstuck. How much of her friendship is affecting our relationship. She has calmed down the phone conversations. But they still see each other all the time. She is not a bad person and has become nicer to me. Not like the wife I knew though in being a real partner. So how much is the past and how much might be her friendship. Many women I have talked with find it highly unusal that she could be talking that long to someone on the phone and not develop a strong tie. Thoughts?

If you learn nothing else here, the one thing that you will remember for the rest of your life is this:<P>TRUST YOUR INTUITION. IF YOU THINK SOMETHING IS HAPPENING, IT PROBABLY IS.<P>That said, it doesn't sound too good, does it? You are doing all the right things, it sounds like. I'm a strong believer in honesty, and I think you are too, especially if you've gotten into Harley's stuff, and you need to find out the truth. That's gonna be a pain, it sounds like. <P>You're here, and that's a good thing, and your W is still at home, another good thing. I think I'd be tempted to have a chat with the neighbor. Tell him to leave her alone. Up to you though...<P>Best wishes... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I have already had that talk with him about two months ago. He played very dumb and almost very convicing in the fact that he said they where just very good friends. Another red flag is that he avoids me if I am outside with the kids. This never used to happen with me in that he would come over and talk with me. No more just avoid me.<P>You know I almost think in someways that I would just like to know everything to move on one way or another. In my mind something has already happen either emotional, full blowen or both. <P>It would be helpful for someone who is a women can respond with how they might react if they had an affair. Is it really the bad boy stuff or Mr Mom? Don't you think that after 7 months of the good guy stuff that things would begin to improve? It seems to be going back and forth with us right now. Good in that we talk at all levels. Sometimes she wants to talk and other times she does not. <P>She seems very confussed on what to do. Can't connect emtionally.

Zip,<P>I didn't understand one thing you said:<P>"It would be helpful for someone who is a women can respond with how they might react if they had an affair. Is it really the bad boy stuff or Mr Mom?" <P>Did you mean you wanted to hear from a woman who'd had an affair?<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Zip --<BR>Been married for over 15 years and just now going through a similar situation. W and OM (H of her "best friend") seem to be having an affair -- emotional, sexual, or both.<P>I found the e-mails. I've answered the phone. I've heard stories from my kids that rase suspicions. And, like you, have been told all about "friendships".<P>I'm new to this b-board stuff, but it is great to have a place to vent and question with others who are in the same situation. One thing has been repeatedly pointed out to me, though: Be cautious. Trust some of your insticts. Don't fall for the guilt trips.<P>I haven't perfected all this. In fact, I'm struggling with the same question myself right now. Is she having an affair or am I being paranoid? Can I trust her? Can I trust myself? Hell of a deleima (sp?), huh? <P>Good luck, and hang in there. You're not alone!

Trust your intuition. If it hasn't yet happenned, sexually....then it sure sounds like an emotional affair...which eventually leads to sex.<P>Your W is being very disrespectul to you and your marriage. She knows what she is doing, but doesn't want to stop. She puts the blame on you because she doesn't want to accept the responsibility for the harm and problems she is causing.<P>I know to others, this may be lovebusting....but I'd probably go have a talk with the OM's wife to let her know what is going on.<P>If both of them believe that they aren't doing anything wrong, then they really don't have anything to hide, right?<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited October 12, 1999).]

I agree with NoTrust on this one... didn't think of that one... that's what I would do.<P>BTW, I asked the question above because I AM a woman who had an affair. I was speaking from my experience. Nothing I'm proud of...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I think you know whats going on.. and the answers here from everyone point to your conclusion...<P>Go to OM's wife and see if it looks the same from her side...<P>It will at least let you know whether or not your on the right track...<P>cozy

Thanks to all of you for your input. Sheryl, sorry I did not get back sooner been on an airplane all day. I was asking the question to get a womens point of view. Meaning if you had an affair would you act this way? Or if you where just upset with all the love busting would you act this way? Or both? Therein lies the confussion for me.<P>Maybe I have read too many books about walls that women can put up and how hard they are to come down and that is why I am trying to believe her. But you would think after 8 months that things would be getting better not worse. <P>Sheryl, how did you react when your husband confronted you? Did you want to put more distance between him? Did you treat him as badly and use the excuse that you did not treat me the right way in the past. Things would be much easier if a 3rd party was not involved. <P>Is there anything to lose by going to OM's wife?

As I read one of the above posts I wounder if my wife is also going through some withdrawl from her friend. She told me the other night that she was having a hard time trusting me. Wanted to really talk but felt that we could not do that right now. Told our consuler that she felt like there was no saftey net with me.

Zip, <P>There's everything to lose by going to the OM's wife, but it's a chance you will take if you want the truth. Your W may become very angry, and theoretically could use it against you, or worse yet, use it as a reason to leave once and for all. It's happened.<P>I was thinking about the OM for about three weeks before my H came to me. I had been crying to him, telling him I'd fallen out of love, that I was going through a mid-life crisis. He knew there was "someone" but didn't know who. I'd told him without his asking - everything but who it was. All hell broke loose after the one time I slept with the OM. My H then knew exactly who when he went through my purse and found evidence (a note from him and a picture). I was sorry I was caught, because I felt like a whore, but I was also so ashamed and embarrassed. I KNEW what a huge mistake I'd made though. I never slept with the OM man again, and the relationship was over three weeks later. But my H went through, and is still going through, hell on earth. There's other reasons that I won't recount here, unless you want me to. Please look at my profile for a few details.<P>I hope this helps you. Remember, we're all different, and your W will have her own way of dealing with this. You will too... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 13, 1999).]

Thanks for the thoughts. My questions is still how did you act when you where having your affair? Seems like it is very consitant with want we are going through. Did you deny deny deny?

Zip,<P>No, I didn't. Mine was an exit affair, or so I thought. I wanted out of my marriage and thought the affair was the way to do it, I guess. I mean, I answered every question my H asked (and now he wishes I hadn't). I was honest to a fault after the first three weeks when I was just "thinking" about it.<P>In that way, I'm different than most who have affairs. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Wife has been very distant the last couple of days almost like it was when things where really bad this summer. Seems very preocupied with other things and says she is not feeling well. Has lost a weight over the last 8 months and hardly ever eats.<P>Strange thing is that she was pretty good for about 3 weeks and then the wheels began to slowly come off. Has a hard time with anything that I say at all. Not sure what she is going through because she says that there is no trust or respect between us. Even though I have offered to listen and be non judgemental.

Talked to my wife tongiht and told her that I went to a shrink to talk about how I can be come a better person. We are in joint consuling right now. Told her that sometimes I may be too judgemental and would try better to listen to her and have more capicity to forgive then I did in the past.<P>She says that she thinks that it takes time for someone to change like and still in a very Bill Clinton like way says her friendship has nothing to do with us.<P>Pushing her just drives everything deeper. The joint shrink said in my session that there was a risk that something might have happen with Mr. Mom. She also said that I need to take care of myself and that my wife needs to rally her feelings. Whatever the hell that means. How can I break the log jam here? I have already gone off like a busted firehose and that has not worked

Zip, <P>Just show her TONS OF LOVE and... I hesitate to say this because I know how hard it will be, but... try to woo her back to you. If you can, that is. Sometimes the anger and pain is too strong (like with my H, he just can't woo me anyway, anyhow). If you can do it, it will make a world of difference. If that doesn't work and you want her back, you might consider more desperate measures: moving, for instance.<P>You are here, doing the right things, and you're right - losing it will only push her further away. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I've read most of the replies but, from my own experience, she is most certainly having some sort of affair. If it isn't sexual ... it will be. That is how my affair began. He was my pastor and my friend. We spent a lot of time together. I was defensive w/ my husband and told him how much I valued OM's friendship. UGH!!! It makes me sick now. <P>I hope your wife realizes how devastating this is before she makes a huge mistake. <P>She seems to be connecting emotionally w/ him rather than w/ her H. <P>My advice, (keep in mind this is all new to me) is to lay down the law NOW! You have the right to request that she not be friends w/ this man. If she loves and values your feelings, she'll respect that wish. <P>

Thanks to both of you for your posts. Man she has been really distant the last couple of days almost nasty. I think this thing is coming to a head. I told her that she can come to me with anything and trust me.<P>She says that she does not think that she can right now. I am usually a very agressive person and push for what I want. This has been tough becasue it has not been working<P>My guess is she still loves the jerk and is trying to let me know in a very soft way. I am about ready to kick his A@#$ if this thing does not get squared away soon.<P>I liked both your comments on what is going on. Why would she become so distant over the last week? Does she know that it is coming to a head? There is no doubt that she is emotionally involved with him. My guess is that if it has gone on for 8 months that there is a lot more. <P>Give me some direction. All shrinks want to do is talk about feelings which are great. But I need an action plan. Get agressive? Back off and let her trust me? What happens when she does finally crack? How should I react? I know I am going to blow up like a busted firehose.<P>That is probably not going to help either. What happens if she says that she still loves the guy. I know that once she breaks out of this trance she will be OK. But how can I break the spell when she says it is nothing but a friendship. Should I show her the stuff that has been written on this board?<P>I showed her Harley's stuff on affairs and she said that it does not pertain to her. I am about ready to blow a major gasket with her over this whole thing!

Just curious. Why am I the one that has to be the one to put on the happy face? I have been trying to do this for 8 months with with no luck. Sure I have had moments where I have love busted and set us back. But how much rejection can someone take before you do just lose it?<P>I am trying but have done nothing to the extent that she has. I will continue to try and make this work. I think I have gone above and beyond the call of duty. I think most of the people on this board have. <P>I know I have not given 110% yet. I am going to do that for awhile and see what happens. But it is soooo tough to get slapped down all the time. Not my style to continue to kiss butt. Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!

Hey Zip...I just read this entire thread and there's good advice here. From all I've learned and all I have lived I know this...your W is deep in this affair, be it emotional or physical or both, and she's in withdrawl. I don't know how you'll handle this, we are all different and our marriages are different too. With my H I had to lay down the rule of "no contact" and make him stick to it. Being in an affair and a fantasy he of course promised me but lied and I caught him. But, affairs are lies and this will happen before commitment happens.<P>Does she want to work on your marriage? Is she committed to rebuilding?<P>Sucks that it is us, the betrayed, that have to do the work you know. We have to hold it all together and pull these people out of their self-created fantasy...really, really stinks. But, you know it can be done and there are many successes here.<P>Hang on...<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

Joanie,<P>Thanks for the post. It is almost like she is in a very deep depression knowing that she really can't have what she wants. She gave me a birthday card telling me that this too shall pass. So I guess she wants to work on it.<P>I really think that she that she can't have this person and what she thinks is so great. The connection that I am sure that they feel. In a lot of ways they are alike and maybe that is what has attracted her. She is in a very deep denial right now and really does not want to talk about it. Sees him every day since he is across the street and kids go to the same preschool.<P>I think she does want to work on the marriage. We are in joint conseling together which has really yet to help becasue this has not come to a head yet. We really can't work on the issues until this comes out. At least that is what everyone tells me.<P>Don't understand the whole deal in that is really about make believe and not the real world. Let's face it in some ways everyday life can become mundane in all aspects. <P>It does suck. I guess we'll just keep our head down and move forward. For me I just really wish there was a road map that said if you do this you will get this reaction. Then you know what to do to solve the problem. All this unknown is what really makes it tough. As I am sure anyone on this board can tell you is that being off balance is not a good feeling. <P>Also having someone tell you that you are in the position becasue of what you have done gets old too. Why the going back and forth between good weeks days and bad? I had a good friend whos wife did the exact samething that my wife is doing. She said that it was like a trance and that males and females can't be best friends!!!<P>They are in playgroup with other couples and a couple of times it has been just the two of them. Last time that happen I said I don't want that to happen again. So last week she called everyone to make sure that there where other people there. I have talked about moving with her and she says that I am trying to control her with those thoughts. Go figure

Zip...ugh! But, I hear hope in your story. I'd keep pushing the moving to a new neighborhood. H offered to quit his job (OW is w/the same company, just different state) but I said "not right now".<P>I've come to believe that men and woman cannot be best friends and no one can tell me different. And you've probably heard this before, but you did not cause this. You two may have had problems in you marriage but she has chosen to go outside the marriage and that was her decision and hers alone. You and her are responsible for your problems, but she is the only one to blame for the affair. She may see that someday, you may too.<P>Hang in there!<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

Joanie,<P>I am hoping that she does see that this type of behavior is wrong. To be honest I think she is really confussed. Confussed in that she loves what she has with the other guy (not real world and not mundane) and hates in someways what she has with me (real world and mundane). We used to have so much fun together going out together having drinks etc. We have not done that in a months. We still do stuff with friends etc. But nothing together.<P>She does not trust me and must be scared to death of not only what I think but the fallout from everyone else. I really need her open up and tell me what her feelings are. Thanks for your comments and everyone else's. As all of us know this is living hell. But in so many ways we all grow up and become better people. <P>I truly believe that she still loves me becasue she says so. But there is an inner struggle between good and bad going on here.

Zip --<P>This is sounding too much like what I'm going through, too. Like you, I just joined this board recently, and the information has been invaluable. It also seems to be consistant from so many diferent sources -- male and female, betrayers and betrayed.<P>I, too< have a W that I suspect is having either an emotional or sexual affair with a OM/H of wife's "best friend". The school connection is there, too. Since my kids are older, kids grew up closer to one and other, carpooling, etc. <P>"Friendship" has been called into question all too many times by me. W defends it as only friendship, nothing more, nothing less. Feels that she can confide in this OM, despite his being of the other sex. Apparently they have also been sharing some "marriage insights" about each of our marriages -- how scary is that!!!!<P>A couple questions before I log off for today: You kids are young, but how do they react around this OM? Any more parent/child like than adult/child?<BR>Does your W seem to be able to rearrange her schedule to accomidate playgroup (and OM), while dodging her ability to make time alone for you? Have you come home early and found anything suspicious (OM at your house, etc)?<P>In my personal situation, I confronted the OM. W has laid on the guilt big time, not just for destroying "friendship" with her "best friend", but also her H/OM. Guilt also about relationship strain between the two families kids. According to my W, her female school group friends (the two that know of our troubles) even think I'm out of line for suspecting something. Yet, my W has gone through the same stuff as yours: withdrawal, rejecting sex, cold/anger, etc.<P>I've got to run, but look forward to your response. Keep your chin up, but eyes open. Listen to some of the advice your getting.<P>Hang in there!

Zip - As promised. But the hell of it is, I'm not sure what to say. I really don't have much advice. In my post responding to your post on my latest thread, I indicated that I thought our situations were very similar except for me not knowing OM's identity and not having small kids.<P>Yeah. One big point that a number of people have made is to trust your intuition, your gut feeling. If this feeling tells you that your W is having an affair (mainly because of her distancing), unfortunately, she probably is. If you're not going to end up thinking that you're just being paranoid, you need to confirm this feeling in some way. Unfortutely, snooping on your W in one way or another probably is the way to go. And, with your looking into her phone bills, sounds like you've gotten a good start on some of this.<P>I really don't know. My W has male friends she tells me about and I have no problems with them. It's the ones she doesn't tell me about (I have a short list) that I worry about. She has even had lunch and spent the better part of the day at his house with one of these friends and it didn't bother me, because she told me about it. And yet, I KNOW she's having an affair because I saw her in a convertible with a guy she hasn't told me anything about.<P>This stuff is hell. I can't advise you on whether or not your W's relationship with the OM is sexual. Who knows? I think your best option IS to snoop, keep your eyes out. AND (if you can afford it) hire a P.I. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Keystone,<P>The kids seem to have more of a parent/child relatioship then adult/child realtionship with him. But I would say that most of the kids around here have that sort of feeling since he is really the only male around during the day.<P>My wife like yours lays the guild trip on me and says that it is nothing about her friendship and everything about her and I. I think that is BS and think that it does have something to do with it. <P>Yes it is important for her to go to playgroup. There have been a number of times that it has just been the two of them there. I have told her that I don't like that at all. Sex life has all but gone away and would be curious if that is what is happening in your marriage.

Maybe a women can tell me what it means when your wife gives you a card for sweetest day and says that her heart hurting etc and that we need time. What the hell does we need time mean? Time to heal? Time to withdraw from OM?

To me, Zip, it means that she needs time to heal, maybe to work through guilt and shame, and possibly time to withdrawl from OM.<P>The BIG thing is: she's asking for time and gave you a card. She could have skipped the card, told you to *blank* off, or ignored the whole thing. I think that the card is a good sign.<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sheryl,<P>Don't get me wrong there are some good things that my wife does. She had my family over for my birthday and other things. I think that she is trying. The question for you after reading your posts is how do you know when it is over?

Zip,<P>Boy, you're asking this at a funny time... let's see, my H just now (just this moment, 5:06 west coast time) that he doesn't see how we'll make it, he's tired of pretending. So I'm sitting here thinking well, it must be over then. <P>He's hit the end of his rope. So, I guess that's when we know it's over... when one of us says it's over. And then I think, no, I have to be strong and fight for the marriage. I mean that IS why I'm on the MB (emphesis being on building the marriage) all the ding-dong day. Who knows, Zip? Really... <P>I'm beginning to think I have no reason to be here. I feel like such a failure and a loser... oh, man, I'm sorry I intruded with my feelings onto your post... I'm sorry.

Sheryl,<P>Hang in there. Everyone has really bad days and does not want to work hard at it. Do what you can to help your husband get through his tough time as he is trying to help you. It is almost like a see saw in that someone needss to up and someone needs to be down. Please keep your head up. My question was when do you know your affair is over. But is sounds like you are not there yet.

Zip,<P>The AFFAIR?? God grief, it has been over for four months. It was over because we both knew it was wrong. Neither wanted it to end, but we had to. Sorry I misunderstood. IT IS OVER, HAS BEEN FOR MONTHS... I AM THERE!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Sheryl - I wanted to reply to you too. Just to say, "It ain't over till it's over." In the last month especially, after I confronted my W with the fact that I saw her with the OM, on several occasions she's sounded like she was outta here for good. It really does make me feel crazy when she sounds like that, because I sure don't want her to go. Some of my crazy, semi-drunken posts on this forum have been written on days like this. But then, she'll still be there in the bed when I arrive, and when I put my arm around her as we're going to sleep, she'll pull my hand up against her cheek and we'll go to sleep like that. Seems like all I really needed to do (which I did) was to say that I don't want to split. Whatever is going on in our marriage and our relationship (I tell her) I still want to stay together. After a VERY stormy last couple of weeks, in which we did have a long discussion about the possibility of splitting, we had a very, VERY sweet day today, which included a lot of holding in bed (though not lovemaking) and then doing a lot of activities together including going out to dinner. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe try something like this with your H? R & B,<P>--Wex

Wex, <P>Good for you man. Sounds like things are moving forward. I guess if we can all put ourselves in the other persons shoes we can better understand what they are going through. My wife and I really go back and forth on closeness. Something that we are further apart on right now.

Zip,<P>Forgive me for bringing this to the top again, but it really bothered me that you thought my affair wasn't over... please know... it is SOOO over!<P>You're right, I'm just having a really bad day. I am so sorry if I bummed you and made things worse for your day.<P>Here's looking toward a much better day tomorrow!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi Zip,<P>As a stay-at-home mom, I find it strange that your wife would spend that much time on the phone with anyone. Little kids could get into a bunch of trouble with mom preoccupied. But I know that I in particular have a male friend of 20 years who I talk to all the time. My H just knew he was my friend. There is absolutely nothing romantic with my friend on the part of either one of us. In fact, now that my H has had an affair, my friend has been a great deal of support for me, as a FRIEND. There are some women though that just get along with men better than women. Women who make friends more easily with men usually have a hard time with other women because they feel they are "catty" or competitive or just plain to gossipy. I am that way. I don't want to hear gossip or things that are bad about anyone. To hold a conversation with someone (male) is sometimes nicer because they don't have all those traits and there's not a competition going on.<P>I guess what I would say is "I DON'T KNOW". Sorry. I just don't think it always means something is going on.<P>I wish you the best and God bless.

Thanks for the post. You did not say how your marriage is? But it sounds better then mine and it sounds like your husband know all along what was going on with this other person. Therein lies the confussion as to did she or didn't she. Too many red flags to say that there is nothing there.

Zip,<P>How are you today??<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Not bad. Really busy at work which is good. Have a conseling session tonight so that should be interesting. Think I am going to do more of keeping my mouth shut and letting her talk. Don't think the dam is ready to break yet. But it will soon enough. How are you doing?<P>

Hey Zip...let us know how tonight goes, K?<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

Hey Zip: I feel so badly for you. My H started a "friendship" with a young girl when our daughter was 8/9 mos. old. I would find proof of them talking 2-3 hours (minimum) during the day (on his cell phone) and he is self-employed and needed to be "working" at the time. I questioned and questioned - and he denied and denied - for months. I started keeping a diary and then matching the diary with the cell phone bills and found out a lot of stuff I really wish I hadn't. His brother told me at the time - "don't be in denial" If you think something is going on - it usually is. He would treat me so "mean". Just disrespectful - I would try being so nice and asking "what did I do wrong" why are you barking at me all the time? And like someone else said - I think they act distant because it is their protection mechanism. Protection against what they're feeling - against you - trying not to be too close to you since they are doing something "wrong". He was doing this (even before they actually slept together). Man - the pain is intense. (I am so sorry) It sure seems like that is what is going on - whether it has become physical or not. It wasn't until my H got the OW pregnant did he have the guts to tell me. Otherwise - I bet he wouldn't have told me - I would have just had to "wonder". I understand the just "wanting to know the truth". I begged for that from my H and OW. Never got it - until she was pregnant. For me - and I can only speak for us - it wasn't until HE was ready to start making a commitment to me did anything work. The only thing I'm having to do is not lovebust and try to be "there" for him as we deal with our lives now that there is another child here. I know it seems impossible now, but there hopefully will be better things to come. Unfortunately, I think it is gonna come down to her. You'll have to wait her out until she resolves everything in her own mind before she can speak to you about it. Patience is truly a virtue - I'm glad you're here on the MBBoard - otherwise you would be so lost - (Or I would be anyway).<P>------------------<BR>

I think you are right she is still going through a major process of trying to figure out what she is going through. No one treats a person like this for as long as our respective spouses have unless there is someone else. I think that I know what is going on and that is what scares her. She is not ready to come to grips with this right now. Talks in terms of not having a safty net with me. Can't trust me with her feelings etc. I really think that she knows that she did something wrong and does not know how to reconcile it with me. OM also lives across the street and that plays a huge part with us right now.

Zip,<P>I've been better.<P>Still hangin' though. Glad to hear you are too... do let us know how the counseling goes...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

zip --<P>Sorry for the delay in responding. Been away from office for weekend, and also most of today.<P>Re:sexual relationship -- Mine too is non-existant with my W. Part of that was my own doing (long story), but the distance that's been created in our relationship has made an even bigger gap. I'll tell you this, though. Since marriage consel began, I don't even know how to try to rebuild this element of our relationship. When I did reach out and touch her -- on the arm -- she claimed it "replused her" -- particularly given the fact that I had confronted her on issues such as affair w/OM and excessive drinking.<P>Although my kids no longer go to the same school as OM's, my W's "friendships" with her "best friend" and her husband/OM have continued despite my requests that they do not. She has admitted to seeing them, although she claimed that OM just happended to be home when she went to see her "best friend" and her kids. Knowing about it doesn't make me feel any better about it. Again, her comes the guilt trip and my lack of understanding of what her firnedship is about.<P>Another question for you: Do you work long hours, out of town, or anything that takes you away for extended periods of time? Has she claimed the friendship as being essential to her survival when you are away?<P>Also, I'd be curious to see how consuling is going. We've been to about three or four joint sessions, plus I went to two or three individual. I've gotten the feeling that she isn't real convinced this is working, or maybe that it's just going through the motions to get off her back. I'm considering what to do about that, since we're overdue for a session.<P>Good luck. Look forward to your response.

Keystone,<P>Yes I do travel a lot and do work long hours. She has not told me that the other person fills the void. We have been in conseling since the start of July. I think we have gone to 5 joint sessions and 2 indv sessions. One of these was the same day that I got the phone records so that one was worthless.<P>I think she gets more out of the indv sessions. I really don't understand why the conseler does not press her more. I sometimes wouder what the heck these guys do for their money

Zip --<P>Again, another amazing similarity. I do work long hours (12-14/day, five days per week), and for years spent months on the road. My long distance time has been all but eliminated, but my hours in town are still not great.<P>I found that I created a bit of a "defense" when I left for long periods of time. So afraid of doing something stupid while on the road (ie. affair) that when I returned to town, it was hard to pull down those walls for my wife. Including our sexual relationship. Reflecting back, I see where that may have started the process of our marriage unraveling. I wish I saw it back then.<P>Friendships became a "crutch" while I was away, and most of those friendships came through school related contacts. Hence, my wife's "best friend" and her H/OM.<P>I do feel that they, particularly he, has filled that need. Although she continues to inisist that no affair exists or existed, I'm not convinced. At the very least, it was about to happen.<P>If only we could see then waht we see now!

Keystone,<P>Yeah it is real tough when you travel. I am the VP of Sales for an Internet software and am on the road for a couple of days a week. It is real tough to connect with your wife when you are gone. As much as I try when I call she still seems so distant and that makes it really hard.<P>But yet she wants some of the nicer things in life so we have to work and get good jobs. OM is a stay at home so the time he has to connect is much greater. For us it has always been hard for me to integrate back into her life when I come back from the road.

MOVE, MOVE, MOVe, MOVE!!!!

Zip --<P>Different profession, but as stated before, similar problem. <P>OM works, but his schedule is so flexible that he often has many weekdays off at a time. This allows him to be available a little to much for my comforts. Again, with the kids being close (former schoolmates), this makes time for them, with me being the odd man out. <P>Re: Travel -- Years ago, when I traveled alot, I also was able to take some great amounts of time off. Sometimes, weeks at a time. It gave me the opportunitites to try to reconnect. Two children later, those times became all about family and less (or none) about us as a couple. As the kids have gotten older, their demands (sports, school, etc) become more demanding, and the time for JUST YOU AND W become scarce or non-existant. For us, it has become the later. <P>I trully believe that she does not want to get away alone anymore, and is using my reluctance of years past -- not wanting to miss out on my kid's activities -- as an excuse.<P>Is it possible for you to travel and take your W along? Might you share some similar interests that allow you to work and deliver the comforts that she's accostomed to without losing touch in the meantime?

Interesting conseling session tonight. The conseler let my wife talk a little bit about her feelings and our discussion Sunday night. She told the conseler that she felt better talking to me on Sunday and that I listen<BR>very well. I let my wife talk for the first 1/2 hour. The conseler asked her if there was anything else that she wanted to share with me. She said no that she said everything she wanted to and felt a little more connected with me. <P>I then talked about how I seem unable to be able to speak with her and that there are issues that I have that she does not understand. The conseler said is it OM and I said yes. Wife says we have already<BR>discussed that and I have told you everything. Conseler suggested that we set a time to talk weekly about he issues. <P>Also suggested that we go out on a date. Wife does not want to because she does not know what we would really talk about without getting to the issues. Tough to get everything going unless you can go out<BR>alone as a couple.<P>Over all she was very nice and talking all the way down and back. Says that I have been quiet and not available as much to conseler. Still no resolution to what is going on. Talked about a topic on the way down<BR>about a friend that is having an issue that they are denying. She could not believe what that person was doing and could not face that facts. Bottom line is she can be nice but distant. Conseler pushed a little<BR>more tonight. Don't get the thing about going out on a date alone. We do stuff but not just the two and us and we used to do that all the time.

Zip --<P>Last session, my W said that I seemed to be better, communicating better, making efforts that she hadn't seen in a while, etc. Yet, I felt it was almost the opposite. I said that I felt I was walking on egg shells, afraid that something I might do or say would somehow blow-up. Afraid to touch her for fear that it would repluse her. I brought up the trust factor. How hard it is to trust. <P>An interesting thing came up, though. W asked the conselor if it was odd that the word "love" never came up in the sessions to that point. She never brought it up, nor did I. <P>Reflecting back, I do (did?) love her. It's just so hard to rebuild the trust when you think she's still hiding something. I don't think you can love without trust.<P>Hard to tell what our conselor wants to do, since no apparent strategy has surfaced, aside from cashing a sizable check every week or so. Dates don't seem to be part of them, although I think W would consider it if offered. On the other hand, what do you do on a date when you're already worried that anything you might do or say has lasting repercussions? You just can't pretend it doesn't exist<P>My W also knows that there are unresolved issues re:OM and also potential alcholol abuses. She also thinks it's been talked to death. Again, goes back to the guilt trip.<BR>Here's where the conselor might earn his keep.<P>

I guess time is the key for unresolved issues. Keystone like you I told the conseler last night that I don't know how to act. When I ask my wife if she wants to talk she says no. But if I don't talk I get accused of not sharing my thoughts with her.<BR>You know sometimes I look at this and say this is really so simple if two intelligent people could just sit down and talk everything would be OK. But I guess when you are hiding something then it becomes tougher.<P>One thing our conseler did suggest is that we set a time once or twice a week to sit down to talk about what is going on. That way it is not dicussed every night (which is not good) or not enough (which also is not good). So we are going to give that a try and see what happens<BR>

Hi Zip,<P>I'm wondering what you would do if your wife told you that ,yes, she did/was having an affair with Mr. Mom? And, does she know you well enough to predict what you would do?<P>I think she is in a approach/avoidance type of situation. I think she is "stuck" and does not know which direction to take. Either way she goes is going to be painful and so there is a lot going on in her head with those silences. Unfortunately I think there is a lot of work ahead of the two of you but I think you will have a better marriage when you get through this.

Bonny,<P>I guess they say you always want to know because then you have a starting point to move from. Right now we are stuck in the mud because we can not share what we are really thinking. I am sure she knows that I would be very hurt that is why she can't say anything to me right now or maybe it is not over. She told me over the weekend that I am a good person and she appreciates me trying. We need time disconnected etc. Sounds like a confussed person.<P>The problem is that any discussion about OM brings back things like it is not about OM but our issues etc. So I don't trust her in that respect is that she is not leveling with me. Bad circle that she is not willing to break right now.

One other thing OM's wife is back to work after having their second baby. Maybe that is why things have been a little more distant between us. Considering things where improving over the last month or so

The once or twice a week talks out of session seem like the way to go if both of you are willing. I'd be curious to see if my W and I could make any headway there, although I think it's still to soon. Only seem to be talking about the "issues" in session, as though it's the only conduit between us. All other communications lately have been more superficial, and bascially avoiding the issues. As you said, if only two intellegent people would just talk... if it were only that easy!<P>Re:Bonny. I'd want to know. The perceived deception, the last of trust, etc. I think it's harder to NOT know. Not that it won't hurt to know the truth. It will. But it seems that it is the only way to start rebuilding the relationship. Secrets are death!<P>I'd be curious to see what this "unsupervised time" that the OM now has will effect your W. I forget, does the OM's wife even suspect something is going on?<P>

Be careful that you don't become "hyper- sensitive" to the betrayer's every move, thought and word. If on somedays nothing is said, or very little, between us, its ok. As my w says, we had days like that before the affair happened which occurs in all relationships. Look to the longterm and its rewards.

Keystone,<P>I will let you know how that goes. But it is almost like I am damed if I bring up the other man in these conversations. But conseler says that we need to be honest with each other and that is what I am having the hardest time with. How can you spend that much time with someone and not have feelings one way or the other.<P>OM's wife does not know what is going on and that may be time to tell her. Problem is that I should have done that three months ago when we where really in conflict. Now if I do it might just bring them closer together. So I need to be able to trust OM's wife and I don't know if I can yet. Who knows my wife may be chasing him and he is telling her to back off.<P>No one has ever told me on this forum. Can man and women be just friends? I say no becasue someone always wants more. As for a man this more is usually sex. What are your thoughts?

Zip --<P>First, tanker has an interesting note about not being "hyper-sensitive". I agreed with him. yet I know I'm hyper-sensitive. Maybe since it's all so fresh. Maybe I'll mature enough over time to view it that way. I'm just not there yet.<P>Re:men and women being "just friends" -- I don't know. That's exactly what our problem is. My W's friendship with best girlfriend seems to have been replaced with friendship with best girlfriend's H. This is the OM. Still not certain if it got sexual, but the emotional ties appear VERY strong. I found too many signs that it had evolved into something more threatening to our marriage that just "friendship". <P>My W says that she has always had male friends (true). But, it doesn't seem that they ever got this close. I found e-mails that suggested things had evolved. I still cannot believe that she denies it -- I saw them. In my shock, I erased them from the computer. Either that, or throw the computer through the wall!!!! The phone calls, the references. Returning home early from work to find that OM is just leaving with kids from swin party at my house. Where's HIS W???? The signs are just to obvious, yet she inisists that this is all me, all my imagination. It's just a friendship.<P>Cut to the chase: Do I think they can be "just friends". It's walking a fine line!!<P>Question for you: Do your W and the OM's W have a friendship? Do they even get along and seem to respect one and other -- at least on the surface. Troubling for me (and my W according to her guilt trip record) is that OM is her "best friend". An odd twist-- she used to refer to them as "Jane and John" (names replaced to protect the innocent). The last two years or so, she refered to them as "John and Jane". Tells me something, huh?!<P>P.S. I'm getting more out of this then in sessions. Problem is, work is taking a big back seat!

Yeah I am getting something out of these boards also. But work (I run a sales group) is getting hurt also. Going a million miles an hour with work and dealing with this. Man it can make you age in a hurry.<P>You see I have nothing as solid as you do with the emails. I have the phone records that showed they talked a lot but I don't know what they talked about. What I do know is that I have known her for 9 years and she has never talked with anyone that long. Also there where no phone conversations of any length with anyone else including GF's.<P>So I don't have anything but a real strong hunch. She is still OK friends with OM's wife. We used to invite them over to our house for dinner etc but that has stopped. She does not talk to OM's wife that much.<P>When we talk while I am at work it is always real quick becasue the kids are going nuts. That is why I find it hard to believe that someone can spend over 2 1/2 hours sometimes in one uninterupted phone call with a 2 and 4 year old. But again it was just a friendship that consummed 95% of our phone bill.<P>My wife also has pulled a little away from her parents while all this has been going on. Her mom is coming to visit next week. She knows about the phone calls and told wife that she was out of line and that you don't do that. Asked her point blank if she was having an affair and wife denied it. MIL thinks I should let it go with wife and move on. I am sure that is what she tells wife.<P>But since she lives out of state, I think she is really getting only half the picture.

I wish I didn't have to work on a take-home test for a masters course or I would take more time here.<P>My opinion? I think she is involved with this man. Sexually? I would say yes but I could be wrong. Of course she is not going to tell the truth, it is not something you want to tell.. I think she is in a real dilemna. She has a husband(you) that she probably loves, and she has this man who has become her best friend and possibly her lover. She knows she has to give him up, after all......how would the two of them survive? Neither of them have a job, they need their support systems to survive. I think she is probably making lists in her head about what he has to offer and what you have to offer and there is no solution. Hence, the quietness, the deception, the depression, I guarantee you she is not having much fun.<P>However, I agree 100% that you need to know the truth. You don't need to know every little detail, that would probably be too painful anyway. But you need to know what this man means to her. In my opinion she should probably never see him again. Ouch, that one hurts, but what is the alternative? Out of respect for you and for her family, she needs to end her relationship with him.<P>Do I think men and women can be friends? Sure, but not like this. This is like BEST FRIENDS. You can be friends or I guess I mean "friendly" with the guy who fixes your car or who is sells you insurance and you can be friends with your girlfriends husband when you are all out together to see a movie or go for dinner. I enjoy discussions about theology with one of my girlfriend's husbands, but we only talk when we are together as couples. So, NO, you can not be friends with a man that you talk to every day for two or three hours and who lives across the street(unless he is gay-no affront meant to gays).<BR>Don't know if this helps but I have been there and done that and have lots to say on the subject.

Bonny,<P>Thanks for your perspective. So where in the hell am I on this thing? Let's go through the facts of all the input from everyone which I agree with.<P>1. There is some emotional/sexual attachement to Mr. Mom. This is a given. I have done the following: Gotten pissed off when I got the phone records, confronted her about them and told her falt out I did not believe her. Confronted him told him to back off or I was going to his wife (by the way he said she was his best friend). Told my wife I did not think that they should be alone together at the park shopping etc (this has not changed). None of this stuff worked. All met with denials that this was a friendship and had nothing to do with our problems in the past which have been building for the last two years (she is probably right but using this as an excuse).<P>2. For the last 8 months (with the exception of the phone record blow up) I have been very nice. Shall we say almost to a fault. Making sure all her needs are met with a few cases of love busting in between. Nothing has really changed expect for a few good weeks and days here. Still not really interested in sex ( says emotional connection is not there).<P>3. My wife has moments of trying to make this work and I think she really does want to for a whole bunch of reasons. One I am sure is that OM does not have a gig. But she is somewhere in limbo land of not really being "with me". Which I am sure many people can realte too.<P>4. Let's make sure everyone knows her point. She says that over the last two years we have lost respect for one another. There have been things that we have both done that have hurt us both i.e. not paying enough attention all the basic love busting stuff. All stuff I would have to agree with. This has come to a head for her in the last 10 months, which is also ritht around the time that Mr. Mom and her had began their strong friendship.<P>5. Moving is not an option. Been brought up and falls on deaf ears. She has other good friends in the area that has made her resist.<P>6. Last fact is nothing that I do to either be nice to get her to trust me or push the issue has worked. I am now more quiet and trying to give her the space she needs. Again she is NOT Nasty which would be totally against her nature. She is just distant.<P>So what the heck is the plan. Nothing I have done works. The facts are here and I think we all agree unless someone can tell me something different. There is a connection to OM. <P>So all us bright folk what is the solution to the problem. Everyone says time but that can work againist us. Who has the magic pill that can help. Thanks to all this has been a great place to listen to other peoples perspectives and learn a ton. Gotta get back to work this is addictive

Zip --<P>My W wanted me to enjoy couples type stuff with her "best friend" and OM/H, but they never really interested me. Although OM and I share related professional backgroups, I've never really had an interest in them as a couple. We've been civil when together (school events, some dinners and parties), just not my type. The attempts to be with them as a couple came from my wife.<P>It appears that my W and her "best friend" are still buddies. Obviously, my confrontation of OM/her husband mus have put some tension into the relationship. Specifics, though, I don't know.<P>I would like my W to break off contact with both, but she seems unwilling -- at least with her "best friend". Our kids no longer go to the same schools, but W wants to remain in contact with her network of friends. <P>Last time she went over to their house with kids, and the OM was there. My W told me -- it didn't make me feel any better -- and said she went over at that time because OM was supposed to be away at work.<P>Question: Where did the attempts to include your neighbors come from, you or your W? When you W talks with OM's W, is it civil, sincere, honest, or does it seem like she's hiding something?<P>Re: strong hunches -- that's where I am. As obvious as the material that I've discovered is, I must be in some denial. I'm certain that something must have been/is going on, yet I guess I still don't want to believe it. I guess I hold out hope that she IS telling me the truth. But, how can I be so terribly wrong??<P>Got to get back to work. Good luck, and I'll check in to this thread later.

OOOps... Just got your last post, which I had not read before I sent mine. Sorry.<P>This is scary, since the parallels between our two situations are almost identical. I'm looking forward to seeing some responses, particulally from Bonny since I think she probably has nailed it for both of us.<P>Later...

My wife is very nice to OM's wife. They don't talk as much as they used to but they still do talk. Not sure I understand the neighbor thing you asked. This is almost like an alcoholic or drug addict. They are always in denial and there is only two ways to bring them out. Get them to trust you and that can take a ton of time and the damage may already be done. Or tough love which is vey painful for all involved and it also means that you must be 100% behind what you think. Because that addict will try and change your mind and make you see it their way. My wife never really answers questions she just gets defensive.<P>Her point of view is that she has been hurt by me and it is only about US no one else.

Talked to Harley just now on his Radio show. Good guy. Told me to confront OM's wife says there is little fallout from that. Says that she is addicated to the OM and must break the cycle. Fill her needs etc. All stuff that I have been trying to do. This addiction stuff is hard stuff.

Dear Zip,<BR>I agree that you ought to talk to Mr. Mom's wife about your suspicions. Be really nice, gentle with her. After all, you have both of your families best interests at heart and that includes some very wonderful children. If she has supspcions then at least the two of you are "on to" the two of them. This should hopefully accomplish the first big step which is to stop any intimate interaction between the two of them. You can not have a real marriage until there is not a third party. A triangle always creates a wedge. <BR>That would be a step in the right direction which is to get your wife back. However, that is what is going to take some time. <BR>Hey Zip, could you start a new thread, this one is getting long!!

Hi Zip,<P>I've been following along on this (very lengthy) thread, and didn't think I had very much to add up to now. But I'm gonna chime in...<P>It's obvious to me (as to everyone else and you) that your wife is having an affair. If not sexual then at least emotional. OK, we're all agreed on that. This whole thing where your wife says that it's only a "friendship" and you are just imagining things is alot of hooey! And even if they are "just friends"? That shouldn't matter. It's obviously very upsetting to you that she and he are so close. Who's more important? A "friend" or her husband? <P>It goes back to your question - "Can a male and female be friends?" Not too long ago, I would've answered HELL YES! Why not? But I've changed my tune. It's just not possible for people of the opposite sex to get too close without one or the other becoming interested romantically. I've seen it as a pattern in my life that I've denied for a long time.<P>I know you are for the most part trying like hell to fulfill your wife's emotional needs, but I'll tell ya, while she's addicted to the OM, it don't mean a hill of beans. She must admit to the affair and give up the OM. Which will lead to terrible withdrawal on her part. I have no idea how you're gonna make her see that or even make her agree that she's in an affair. She's the one who has to see that on her own. Not that you should STOP meeting her needs. Actually, it's all the more important that you CONTINUE to do that. But you just have to recognize that you won't get any results for quite a long time.<P>I agree with much of what Bonny had to say. Your wife is exhibiting the classic behavior of a betrayer. The depression is because she can't make a decision on what to do. She's basically worked herself into a corner and she can't get out. On the one hand, she has a loving husband who fulfills some of her needs, on the other hand she's got the OM who she's terribly addicted to and can't imagine giving up. It's very horrible. I know, cuz I've been through that. It's awful. And the thing that's even worse in your wife's case is that she's holding everything in. The pressure must be enormous!<P>Sure, you two were having problems before, but that is not the cause of your wife's depression. It's the double-life and the lying and the indecision that's making her depressed.<P>You want to know what to do about it, and you want to have a game plan... All I can offer is the following:<P>1) Continue to meet her emotional needs even though it seems to have no effect. Don't do it to get response from her. Do it because it's what you must do.<P>2) Do not threaten, disrepect, have angry outbursts, etc. All that basic love-busting stuff. Also, don't keep bringing your suspicions up all the time. She's aware that you think she's having an affair. What I would suggest is turning it into a "I feel such-and-such when you do so-and-so" kind of thing. "I feel terrible when you spend so much time with OM, even if it is just in a friendship capacity." Hopefully that's non-threatening, and it gives her the benefit of the doubt (even though there is not much doubt left).<P>3) Yes, maybe you should talk to the OM's wife. What's the worst that will happen? Maybe the OM will see that he may lose his wife, and decide on his own that he cannot see your wife anymore.<P>take care and hope I could help just the slightest bit.<P>--andy