I've heard/read all of the standard stuff. The A wasn't about me, it wasn't about the OP, my FWW is with me now, etc.

Despite those facts, I can't help it. My W took extraordinary risks for a quickie. She risked my health and the health of our unborn daughter. She risked her family, like all WS's do.

Since d-day, I have issues with self-esteem. I recently posted about her lack of enthusiasm with me. I still have to initiate it, and I rarely do. I don't feel like I should have to more than about half the time.

Take last night, for instance.

We had discussed fooling around after the kids were in bed, which is usually no later than 10:00. I was extremely tired from getting up early that morning, and I let her know so, but I was still looking forward to it.

At about 9:00 she decides to take a bath. I'm thinking, "Tonight should be REALLY good!"

I'm watching both kids while she does this, and getting more tired by the minute. My spirits are still high.

She finally gets out of the bathroom at 11:00. By the time both kids are asleep and we're finally sitting down on the couch to relax, it's 11:30. The way our house is laid out, my W had to finish in the bathroom before our kids will go to sleep. I'm exhausted, rather angry, and trying not to show it.

Then, I get this statement. The delivery could be best described as "deadpan":

"Well, do you want to do it down here or upstairs?"

I inform her that now it's pushing midnight. It's been nearly 3 hours since she started her bath, and I'm simply too tired. I've got to get up early in the morning and go to work, as always.

My anger showed a little. She starts talking about me sabotaging the evening. I try to keep a lid on my feelings, because I know that we will fight if I discuss them at that point. I kept telling her that I wasn't angry with her, but WE let time get away from us. I just wanted to get to sleep without a fight.

Laying in bed, I tried to talk to her a little. I had calmed down. She turned her back to me, refused to talk, and just wanted to go to sleep. That's when I finally let the anger out.

"Do you know why we ended up not doing anything tonight? Because from my point of view, you didn't want to bad enough."

"I was just offering it!"

"Yeah, now that it's 3 hours later. You knew I was tired, and you couldn't have taken a 10 minute shower? The bottom line is that you weren't very eager. If you had been, there's NO WAY you would have delayed things that long. When is the last time the kids weren't in bed until ELEVEN THIRTY? You have the right to feel how you want to feel, but so do I. Right now, I feel rejected...like I was put on the back burner for a f__king BATH!

"I don't understand how you could feel rejected, when I was asking you where you wanted to do it 2 minutes ago!"


This is when I ran my mouth. I wanted to yell at the top of my lungs, but didn't.

"Let me ask you something. When you and OM were all hot for each other and face-to-face, did anything interrupt your little f_ck session? No. You didn't want a 10 second delay, let alone 3 hours. You couldn't get to it fast enough...and there sure wasn't any deadpan discussion about where you were going to do it. You basically said "Hi" and went at it. Why? BECAUSE YOU WANTED HIM. YOU WANTED HIM BAD. Even if you had had the time, there is NO WAY you would've told him you were going to take a bath and made him wait for 3 hours. Imagine that! You actually wanted it, AND it was spontaneous! What a lucky guy he was! He was getting something from my W that I still can't get from you unless you're drunk! And YOU have the nerve to tell ME that I sabotaged the evening?"

"You need to stop comparing what you get and what he got. I do EVERYTHING for you!"

"Yeah, if we've had a few drinks first. You won't do it sober. That's your choice. It's a free country. But I will not accept a lesser sex life just because you were a certain way with OM and it makes you feel uneasy now. Your A wasn't my fault, and I refuse to be punished for it any more than I already am, every hour of every day!"

"I'm going to sleep. Good night."

That's where we stand now. Going home after work sounds miserable. Am I unreasonable? Do I expect too much? Our sex life is becoming the elephant in the living room, unless we're fighting about it. I've seriously considered going without sex entirely unless she initiates it, no matter how long that might be.

Some here have told me that she can never feel as "excited" about sex in our M as she did in her A. If that's the case, we're finished. I refuse to play second fiddle to anyone or anything in ANY area. She needs to dig up some enthusiasm for me without me holding her hand the entire time...she found enthusiasm for OM with no outside assistance. She can do it again if she wants to stay married. We've done well in many other areas, but I think this one is a dealbreaker for me.

For the record, there is no alcohol abuse. We drink 3 or 4 times per year.

I'm not raising a fuss about one night...this is an example of an ongoing problem that seems to get worse as time passes.

I wish I did have advice. Part of my justification for my affair was that H and I had sex 2 or 3 times a year (his choice, not mine...oh man...I tried everything...)

He promised me that would change if I came back. It hasn't. I don't really have the right to expect anything, though, especially because of what I did.

So, I don't have advice, but I do get where you are coming from even though I wasn't crazy about the delivery in your last post.

From my experience, I dont think you're going to get what you want by being angry. But I don't know the answer either.

I do have to say...a 3-hour bath? wt-ef?

Sitting in the tub and soaking for an hour, then about half an hour shaving and going over her feet with one of those rough stones (like sanding your feet), then another half hour showering off, washing and conditioning her copious amounts of hair...then drying off, moisturizing, brushing her hair, and getting dressed.

It sounds like a scene from "American Psycho", but it's true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It was about 2.5 hours. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

A half-hour of shaving? Are you married to chewbacca? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It depends on how much she's shaving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Most of that half hour is spent pampering her feet, actually.

Well from one Crazy to another I do not have a lot of advice either. I can feel the anger in all of your posts and I have been there with you for most of them (kind of including this one).

Supposedly part of my FWH reasons for having the A was his SF needs were not being met by me and this part is true however there were reasons for this.

We have been working on things that were wrong in our M and supposedly this was one of them but now he does not seem interested. It is very hard on the self esttem for sure.

But I am trying to approach things with a little less anger than before. Oh I am still VERY VERY VERY angry about the whole situation and what it has done to our lives but the anger is KILLING me. I have to let go of it for me not for him. If things work out they work out if they don't they don't but I do not like the ANGRY me anymore.

Just a thought!

krazy...

I'm gonna give this a shot...but know that it is only my opinion and I have very very limited information to base it on...
and
I only have your side....

AND

I seriously seriously seriously think you should see a couples counselor and address this issue together....

but I'll give it shot...knowing out of the gate...it's off...

and it's full of could of would of should of's....

The goal here is a healthy happy fullfilling intimate sexual relationship with your wife....

today....
AND
in three months...
AND
in six
and then years and years of it...

What if you were to start to address your sex/intimate life with out your with
no context or reference to the affair...

is that not part of the long viewed goal here....

what if this exact same incident...
happened next year...

would it still contain the same reactions and references...
to the affair and the OM...

OR
could it be a different beast altogether....

If OM becomes the context and root of all that is wrong in this area of your life....

how can it be gotten over...

on one hands what's done is done....and it's a horrible offense what she did...
no excuse no doubt...

and there is atonement to be acted out from her....
to make you feel and know she is sorry....

is there any intiamate interactions touching going on outside of the bedroom...

are you two spending fifteen hours a week together....
are you flirty with her...
is she with you....

have you two ever been that way in your marriage...

what are the pre-affair patterns of your sex life...

see this is why this is so hard on this forum...I really do think you should go together to counseling....

how you say lovingly to her...I really wanted you to want me so bad that you wouldn't dream of taking so long in the bathroom....without it being about the OM>...

would she had done the same pre-affair...

would you have felt same...

can you address specific things with her...

my wife...when you address me about sex in the same tone you ask me if I wan't peas or carrots for dinner it hurts me and appears to me like you don't care about me OR about being with me....

how often do you bring up the OM to her...

and none my questions I hope are saying you are wrong....
it's the need to learn how to communicate to one another...

she can't defend what she did with the other man..
and when cornered she will most likely either shut down or worse defend herself cause that is what most of us do iniatially...even when we are dead on wrong in what we did...
to survive we defend first\

are you willing to find a therapist to help you with this

ark

The problem with the marriage still exists because it probably hasn't been properly addressed. Holding the A over your spouses head will not solve the problems that exist in YOUR MARRIAGE. As a SPOUSE (of any kind, be it betrayed or formerly wayward), i think you have to be willing to ask for what you want and need. I don't believe it is at all healthy to SACRIFICE.

Honesty and openness, without all that anger, will take you a long way. Discussing these issues BEFORE you even enter the bedroom, in a calm manner, is a better approach.

Krazy, if this is an ongoing issue, why not not discuss it before things like this happen? Talk about what you want, need and how you want/need it; even down to the bloody time of day, if necessary.

It does sound like your wife is not placing any importance on your need. It also sounds like you guys need to be more clear about your needs, and how to meet them, before the time comes to do so.

I have to say when I saw a 3 hour bath I thougt you had to be exagerating.... Does she always take so long? On my "pampering, shaving, grooming" long showers I take 1/2 hour 45 min MAX. I usually am out in about 10 minutes, 5 if I am in a hurry. I guess after having 4 kids I learned how to do it fast.

IMHO, what you are doing is counterproductive to restoring your marriage. You're making sex more complicated and tension filled than it needs to be. I understand that you want her to be eager and that a 3 hour bath seemed disrespectful to you, but that's besides the point--b/c a big argument over that right before bedtime is just going to compound the resentment in your marriage.

As I see it, recovery occurs in baby steps. On the bright side, at least she was going to be nice and clean for you. Whether she was super eager really is immaterial b/c each time you have sex together it gives you a chance to (A) have some of your needs met, (B) illustrate to her that sex doesn't have to be a tension filled ordeal, (C) gives you an opportunity to show your love and that you're working on forgiveness. The old sage advice not to go to bed angry b/c of a fight is quite intelligent.

Beating your FWW over the head with verbal 2x4s is probably not the best way to increase her desire to have SF with you.

I am so sorry Krazy. Sorry for you because you have to go through it, and sorry for me b/c I was "your wife" a very short time ago. I hesitated to post, because I am a newbie, and everyone seems a little shaky about reading a newbie post, but I will do my best.

You have every right to feel the way you do. I know you know this, but yet you still question if you are being unreasonable. I will try to explain from her perspective, even though I have read your posts and know you will tell me it is unacceptable!

Think of her as a recovering drug addict, which may help you separate yourself from the hurt feelings of "why doesn't she want ME anymore" type of thing. Think of the A as a drug for her that she became extremely addicted to, and is now in withdrawl. When a person is in withdrawl from ANYTHING, they do not feel good. Nothing seems fun, or interesting or exciting...except maybe to take that drug again. This does not just apply to sex, but because it is so centered in sex, that's going to be the biggest thing affected. I know for me, I just wanted to be left alone. The more H would push, the less I wanted to be with him, the more I questioned whether I wanted the relationship, etc. It is hard to love someone and be sorry for what happened, but then in your heart of hearts still not really have those passionate feelings. It is possible, also, to not regret the action (as bad as it was, but remember-like a drug, it felt good at the time- enough to risk everything) but regret the consequences of that action. So, it turns into depression. Depression effects everything. You know how you SHOULD feel, you know your BS has every right to walk out on you after what you have done, you know you should be the one making the effort, etc. But you get stuck in the "I just cannot make myself do something that I don't want to" frame of mind.

The problem is, you feel that way, too, but are making the effort to overcome those feeling (feelings follow actions concept). This is even more painful for you because you know/feel that SHE should be making the effort, and yet she won't even try. The fact that she spent 2 hours in the bathroom is proof of that. Who spends 2 hours taking a bath? It's a stall tactic by her and then the half-a$$ed "where d'ya wanna do it" was said to get you out of the mood, just in case you were still in it after her 2 hour bath. She knew how you would react...so did I when I would do the same stuff to my H.

What I did that helped more than anything, even b4 the fog lifted last week, was meditate. I have always had anger issues and for some reason, it helped so much. I am NOT a religious person, I am a spiritual person, and I will not preach to you. But it had a very calming, soothing effect on me, and I kept being reminded of just how much I loved my hubby. It was a gentle, non-judging, unconditional love type of reminder...one I could finally listen to without feeling bad about myself and my choices. I still cannot explain it, but after I was done meditating, I just wanted to jump on him for the first time in years! It was like it opened me up to the intimacy part of it.

My point is that you cannot force her to want to be with you. Nor should you! But there may be other thngs out there to help her put her feelings of unworthiness and being judged for her actions aside enough to open back up to the intimate part of your relationship...and WANT IT as much as you do.

It always amazes me that someone like you and my H can still want to be with someone like your wife and me. I cannot say that if the situation were reversed that I could ever "want" him again. And yet, you have tried your best to overcome the pain and reach out to your wife. I'm sure it means a lot to her on some level...but no matter how unfair you think it is, she is unable or unwilling to reciprocate right now. I would suggest backing off for a while...do a 180, and act like you could care less. If this is bad advice, tell me SM's! I just think for me it would have been really shocking-woulda shook me up a little, ya know. I know you have needs, but I think you want to make it work with your WW, so this is just a suggestion.

If you want to more info on the meditating, let me know. I can point you to a very helpful site (easy to read, excellent site-I got started the first night). Maybe it will help.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you all the best. I am so sorry you have to go through this and my heart goes out to you.

get a baby sitter in place and take her out to dinner tonight, flirt heavily, don't bring up the OM

weekday fun ftw

Krazy,
I'm going to take a stab at this at the risk of being offensive and unreasonable.

True sexual intamcy between a man and wife stems from a love and mutual respect for one another that has nothing to do with lust or anyting that resembles that.

At the risk of being censored by the mods, your need at this point probably has more to do with your loins than it does with true connection with your w. And I suspect your W is fully aware of this.

If you want your W to desire you, it has to be the culmination of desire for you because of who you are and what you do. It will never emerge from the fact that you are M'd and therefore have a right to this! Your W will never acknowledge a right to her body, as long as you insist on this as a prerequiciet(sp) to recovery and reconciliation.

Intamcy has to flow naturally, just as it did at the beggining of your M.

How about you start this process, much as you did when you were dating? Slowly romancing her and yourself for that matter, till the passion comes to a peak?

Start from scratch, because that is where you are at. so is she!

Patience, and forebearing, just as you did when you when you were dating! this time it's OK! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Krazy, you are very resentful and angry. This will NOT help you in this endever.

Take a step back and breath. It will all come good in God's time. Have faith.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Shinethrough,

I'm afraid I don't have any wooing left in me.

I already did that twice.


I understand that she's not going to have any desire when I'm angry or resentful, but at least I'm not faking it just to get in her pants.


Maninmotion,

I agree. By that time, we both knew it wasn't going to happen.



One problem I have is the feeling of jumping through hoops. I have a BIG problem with having to try so hard, when it was so easy for OM.

This may cost me my marriage, but I refuse to. If I was a WH, I'd be having to beg for sex...earn my way back into her pants.

She's the WS and I'm supposed to be Mr. Nice Guy so that she'll want to be intimate with me? I'd rather IM her and bend her over a desk for 10 minutes than lower myself to kissing [censored] in hopes of being deemed worthy of whatever blessings she decides to bestow upon me.

I agree with the 180. Let her do the wooing.

Krazy,

Is it possible that your wife needs to differentiate between nasty affair sex and looks like a movie marriage sex? I know in my own failed marriage, there was some Madonna-Wh0re issues going on.

I think maybe your wife needs to feel respected and cherished and you need to feel like something she can't wait to get her hands on. Perhaps she is stifling her sexuality because it dredges up the feelings of shame from the affair.

The objective is for both of you to feel love, respect and partnership towards each other with a splash of "come into the laundry room, NOW, the spin cycle is on baby!"

I like a previous posters analogy about the addiction. With drugs and alcohol, you can abstain. But with a eating disorder, you have to eat, just find a healthy balance. Your wife can't find a healthy balance.

You also have alot of understandable rage. I have a hard time believing that your tone with her doesn't reflect that.

Krazy,
Your resentment and the hardening of your heatt is is undoing of your reconsilation.

Do not expect to R your M with predominant attitude. Your anger and resenntment is killing both your and your W.

You and your W are the survivors of the Titanic floating around in two different life boats. There is no connection other than survival.

Yoour most immediate need is to reonnect with each other. SF is the culmination of that reconnet, but you are insistent of all the tiny steps in between that are neccessary for that to take place again.

Instead, you OUTRAGE!

Please take a break.

You are undoing your own R by being so resentful. Can we find a way to deal with your anger?

I think that woudl be a helpful start?

All Blessings,
Jerry

Krazy:

I sympathize with your situation.

I think that for whatever reason, your S was on the fence about the SF. She was somewhat open, but she took 3 hours in the bathroom. That may be her way of being passive aggressive. Maybe it took her that long to get worked up for it.

IMHO, if you respond in a different way, you may end up in a situation where she is much more open to it. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but yelling and holding the A over her head aren't going to get you there. Yes, what she did was unfair. You have to accept that you can still get to a good place even if what she did was grossly unfair.

I don't have the answer on how to respond, just a suggestion. Yes, you were tired, but the argument probably took some energy too. Which would have been more fun?

Here is another idea... when she is in the middle of the routine, why not simply inform her that you are going to sleep and that she can wake you up when she is ready?

Either one of these suggestions are in keeping with informing her of your need and are respectful to her, which in the long run, is going to help you to get things back on track.

Best wishes,

krazy..

the om is a piece of SH.&*..
a real peice of sh.(*

and he treated your wife like a piece of sh.(*...

and for whatever really deep soul-wrenching lost from the light of GOD issue is/was going on with her......she allowed herslef to be treated like a piece of sh.#$

AND
treated the OM like a piece of SH.&^....

and you take the actions of two humans self gorging on soul-less flesh as some great prize....

and wish it upon yourself...
from your wife....

people in the acts of an affair are so far removed from any ounce of good or decency in the world...they are so lost...

and you desire that....
for you
and
of your wife...

if you aren't willing to do anything...

then I doubt marriage builders can help you..
I don't see how it can...

ARK^^