He seems like a real creepy man to me. He blames others for all the bad things he wants to do and does do them.

We can all blame others for our flaws and our mistakes but what it comes down to is we do what we want to do.

We really cannot blame others for our stupid and immoral, cheating and creepy choices in life.

He is a creepy cheater who blames others for forcing him into it. I would never trust such a man ever again. You can try and live with him if you want.....Goooooood luck!

Actions speak louder than words, over time.

All WS's are foggy at first. I say wait a while, listen to what he says and watch what he does, over time.

Really, he just sounds like a typical wayward so far, not yet self-aware. It doesn't mean he won't or can't get there. It's too early to recommend giving up just based on his current fogginess, IMO.

Thanks, Neak. I agree 100%

I would like to say that my skin is thicker now. YAY! because I get this process a whole lot better seeing it from this angle.... Thank you guys!

Stellakat, it seems like you don't pay a lot of attention to details before posting your VERY bold statements. I don't disagree with you completely especially when it comes to blaming others for our mistakes, but I guess I don't understand your reasoning for everything you write.. Why do you feel the need to jump to conclusions so quickly about my H? Why can't you give him a chance to hash things out and see if things can improve? Why do you see his disposition as permanent and unchangeable? And why do you lower yourself to call him names?

FB,

I look at your posts and realize that you are both children. I don't mean that in a condescending manner. It is a fact. Your H on his thread has stated.

1. He was just recently "born again".

2. He was earlier an ordained minister.

3. He has attempted suicide 4 times in the last year.

4. He blames others for his choices. Principal among thoses is the minister he worked for. I am tempted to accept that your H was not mature enough to withstand the hero worship followed by the cohersion that might have taken place.

5. His common response to those posts he does not like is to refer to them as "idiots". Not productive assuming that assessment had any merit.

6. He craves the limelight or the "stage" as he puts it, but clearly cannot handle being on the "stage".

So why am I detailing this to you? You may or may not be a mature woman...yet. But, what is clear from your H's posts is that he is NOT a mature man yet and given his age I am thinking it might take until he hits 30.

This means that working on the marriage is going to be problematic. It means he is going to have to demonstrate a level of maturity to heal this marriage that he has never demonstrated before. In short, not only does he not know about the dynamics of marriage but he is not very mature as a person yet.

I suspect many posters picked up on this and thus suggested that perhaps divorce might be the best path. As I assume you know these sort of decisions are really yours...no one elses.

You have apparently decided to see if you can rebuild this marriage. I would suggest that you think in terms of "building" this marriage as it seems he has not shown the maturity to have ever really valued it before.

PB, the onus is on him to SHOW you by his actions that he is maturing and can be the husband you need. You need to be very vigilant and would strongly recommend that if you can you find a pro-marriage counselor to really work with you two and hopefully your H's perspective on life and people.

You marriage is young, the data is sparse, and your H is not a very mature man yet. Will he grow into the kind of man you would be honored to know and marry? I hope so. It is his challenge to meet not yours.

Learn what you can here about relationships, men and women. Grow with the new knowledge and see if your H will grow and mature as well. It is really his job to do this.
He doesn't know it yet, but far more people are admired in this world than those on a "stage". They are admired for their competance, their generousity, the wonderful children the rear and give to the world, and their body of work as human beings. It is NOT about singing a few tunes, nor is that much to respect in someone. Until he figures that out, your chances of recovery will not be great. If he does, they will be much better.

Hope this is of some help to you.

God Bless,

JL

Excellent analysis and advice JL.

So good to see you choosing to help someone again in spite of your own thoughts about "leaving."

God bless.

I agree, and you calling us children does not offend me whatsoever. I am VERY emotionally immature. I have utterly failed at drawing appropriate boundaries and maintaining them. I have never been adequately prepared for dealing with people and relationships, but I want to be, so very badly.

The hard thing with boundaries with my H is that he is more stubborn than me. He doesn't want to have certain boundaries, so he makes my life misereable...I don't like to be miserable (duh), so I give in, but I'm miserable anyway, so I try to reinstate my boundary, I give in, and I'm continually unhappy.

I do feel manipulated, I'm not going to lie. With his depression, suicide attempts, just the timing of it sometimes... but I don't know what to do about it. I can see that he's going to be a hard egg to crack. As of tonight, he's decided to delete his MB account, but I hope he doesn't.

I would like to give some insight into his childhood.. NOT to excuse his behavior, but hopefully to help in knowing how to deal with him. The main things:

-on his first day of kindergarten, his aunt (on his dad's side) was his teacher. She reprimanded my H for something and sent him out in the hallway. When my MIL found out, not only did she argue with said aunt for reprimanding him, SHE TOOK HIM OUT OF SCHOOL COMPLETELY. He and his brother were homeschooled from then out. This scenario was repeated, who knows how many times throughout his childhood in different circumstances... he did not have to take responsibility for his actions. He was, through the power and bullying of his parents *above reproach* to those outside his immediate family nucleus.

-BUT, -within his family- it was a different story. he was apparently a difficult child for his mom to deal with... and...

-upon meeting new people (usually at churches since that was pretty much his only allowed social outlet until his... um... forever) his mom would introduce him and his brother like this... "this is (his brother), the good one, and this is (my H), the good example (of what NOT to do.) His mom seemed to think it was clever.

I think that's a good place to start...

I know this is very damning information, and I wish I could explain why I have hope for him, but I just do. I don't think it's going to be easy, especially because he needs to be willing to help himself, to do the HARD WORK, and seriously get the chip off his shoulder... but i hope he will do it for his own sake, for my sake and for our little kiddos sake.

So is your husband still an ordained minister? Does he still work for the same or another church? What does he do now for work.

How long has it been since your husband has been an ordained minister? How long has it been since he has been in a "church" position?

All it means when he's an 'ordained' minister is that he has a piece of paper stating that a church he was at at one point in his life chose to ordain him. I think it just means he could marry people... You could compare it to a license of sorts, but it doesn't mean he has to use it.(which he is NOT)

He doesn't work for a church, and hasn't in almost two years.. he wasn't on staff at the church where the OW was, but he did play the guitar during many services. He wasn't a leader.

He has a regular job now to support our family which has absolutely nothing to do with church leadership of any kind. We GO to church, he admitted to the A in front of the church where we have attended as members..

FB,

Just wanted to pop over here (and read your thread) and let you know I found it.

I'm slow.

Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend yet?

Thank you for being here.

LA

OK, HELP ME! I'm wondering today if I've really been seeing more improvement than there really is..

TYK, I hope you read this because you are pretty much right on and I agree with you in your analysis of my situation. Today has been terrible. It's not really that much worse than most of our 'bad days' but I feel like since my level of awareness has been heightened the pain I feel when he acts this way is deepened.

I keep hoping that he'll have some sort of ah-ha moment, breakthrough, that things will click and maybe I'm getting ahead of myself by feeling like giving up on waiting for that to happen, but he's trying to turn me against this forum now. A couple of things he's said today:

-that I'm going on here to fulfill my EM needs outside of our marriage... (I guess he's insenuating I'm cheating on him?)

-because I don't want to let him read over my shoulder at what I am writing right now I've 'lost my mind'

-he keeps arguing with me about what I write on here so I've told him if it's damaging to him and is going to cause more conflict to read my threads while I work out my feelings, then he shouldn't read them, but he pretty much throws that out as an option and just wants to keep arguing with me about what I've written.

-he's said something along the lines of 'why are you willing to throw yourself and emotions onto complete strangers who are hurting as well'.... but the truth is, I personally feel that while I've let my emotions be pretty raw and honest, I feel like I'm doing a good job of discerning the good from the bad... but I am still learning

-he keeps trying to put us on the same playing field that we've both made mistakes in our M.... not an attitude that shows he understands or accepts responsibility for the A

-he has gotten mad and frustrated at me each time I've been on here today even though he's been on here WAY more than me..

I am definitely weighing my options right now more than I have before. I'm tired of being responsible for our marriage getting better. I think he IS letting me carry more than my share of the burden.

I don't want to make any rash decisions, but at the same time it's kind of scary to me that he's trying to cut me off from this. I think it scares him for me to read things like what TYK wrote him about HOW MUCH WORK is his responsibility in this, and how much he has to prove to me, because he's clearly not willing to do that in his actions.

Tonight, I tried to emphasize that I recognize now that I have a right to leave if I don't feel he's doing what he takes, (just trying to draw some boundaries that I'm not going to put up with his bullying )and he said, 'So... you've left before.'

?? This is bad and I know it.

bump... need help! please read previous post!

FB,

I suspect your WH believes he's losing his perceived control of you and your decision making, and its scaring him.

He sees MB as a threat to him because he knows he's really going to need to deliver THIS TIME. And by deliver, I mean hard work by changing.

Change can be frightening. There's a saying "Change occurs when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change". You're there and he isn't.

Have you two discussed counseling with Steve Harley. You should do it. Even if its just you. Its money well spent. He'll help you put a plan together based on where you're at right now, with steps to get you where you want to be.

Seriously think about it.

Jo

And please don't let your WH bully or coerce you into doing anything you haven't enthusiastically jointly agreed to as a Team.

AKA POJA [Policy of Joint Agreement]

Isn't it around $200 a session? we literally cannot afford that unless we return our christmas presents and borrow money which I guess is doable but I don't think my H would be willing to return presents...

Go to free counseling in your area. Your husband cheated on you and now he is almost acting proud about it. How bout when he kicked you out 9 mos pregnant while he boinked the young girl? There are so many things about him. That i would not like.

Has he taken proper responsibility for the affair and everything he had a year ago? Is he working at a good job supporting you guys or are you in the poorhouse?

Is he helping you fulfill your destiny and find your passion in life or is he keeping you down and trapped until he has more affairs?

I would say you two have a rocky marriage. If you can live with it go ahead, but it would take a lot of energy to do that. You could "put up" with him.

Fireblossom - yes, you are seeing more improvement that there really is, in my humble opinion. Recovery from infidelity is a looooong process (the average is 2 years).

If you want to see real improvement, your husband is going to have to do something he doesn't seem willing to do yet...submit his will and his life to the Lord.

I'd like to talk to your husband about that as it does not appear that he has any "mature" Christian in his life who can talk with him about his relationship with both God and with you.

Since he is not here, let me put it this way, if he WILL not be obedient to God, why do you think that he would be obedient to you or faithful to the marriage, since he is also being unfaithful to his "husband," Jesus?

To your husband I would point out that Jesus came to SERVE. Especially at this time of the year when we celebrate His birth, we should also be reminded that He came here for a purpose that required Him to "put aside" His own "feelings" and submit to the Father's will.

Jesus, Lord of the Universe, Creator of all that there is, washed the feet of His disciples as an EXAMPLE of what they, and all believers, should do....humble ourselves and take on the role of servant no matter how "big" we feel or even "are."

Your husband does not appear to me to be willing yet to surrender his life to God. If he IS a believer, then my question to him would be, "Why not?" If Jesus (God the Son, the second person of the Trinity) surrendered His human life to God the Father, what makes him "better than Jesus" that he does NOT have to choose to surrender his life to God?

If he will not surrender his life to God, why do you think that he will surrender his "husbandhood" to you in God-commanded servanthood? THIS problem with his relationship with God needs to be "fixed" first, or you will continue to have ongoing problems in your marriage. What your husband does not seem to "get" yet is the terribleness of sin to God and what it cost God to offer forgiveness of sin to him, to you, to all of us.

If he'd like to talk about this, I will talk with him.

I would also suggest JOINT marital counseling with a trained Christian counselor who is committed to saving marriages. There is an organization of trained counselors, the majority of whom provide counseling for free, and it you'd like a link to their website I can provide it to you and you can see if there are any counselors in your area.

God bless.

I will post more soon FB, but in a nutshell, you are finally waking up, and seeing your H's behavior and manipulation for what it is. OF COURSE he doesn't like you realizing this! It is a tool he has used for a long time to get his way, and losing that tool is going to cause him to lose control of you, and just might cost him his marriage and kids.

You know what is true, and what has the ring of truth to it, you know that your H's recovery efforts have been 1/2 assed at best.

You are dealing with a child, and in many ways are a child. These changes are not goign to happen overnight, him accepting responsibility is not going to happen over night. But he can make a commitment to work towards that NOW.

I'll bbl, hang in there, you've been empowered, and it scares him, that is all. Do not be manipulated into giving up your strength because of his insecurities.

FB,

"I keep hoping that he'll have some sort of ah-ha moment, breakthrough, that things will click and maybe I'm getting ahead of myself by feeling like giving up on waiting for that to happen,"

Kudos on this great insight into your own expectation...seeing how we set ourselves up through these hidden expectations, and then experience them as a weight, which tires us out, shortens our patience, distorts our reality.

My experience in recovery is a lot of ah-ha moments over time. Not one big one...a lot of important ones...and they come...we change...and seemingly change back again...as if they weren't real. They were. God's design of the human mind made it so it cannot tell reality from fantasy. So we can get ephiphanies which resonate like thunder in us...and begin to act from our new realization...and then our habits, what we've asked our brains to hand us thousands of times, kicks in again...doesn't mean we lose the ah-ha...means we can stop acting from it, signalling our brains as if 'that's not what I want' anymore.

Then we get the ah-ha again.

"but he's trying to turn me against this forum now."

Is that exactly what he said today? "I want you to turn against MB forum?" If not, that's a DJ you have...an assumption from interpreting what he says...not what he said. Very much adds to the weight of hidden expectations/beliefs, wears us down. Hurts us and distracts us from our own goals, our own intent. I say this because I lived in DJs my whole life, prior to MB. They weren't easy to spot, either, after I learned about them from JustLearning and Love Busters. Lots of layers of them...determining my reality...which wasn't even reality.

I share this with you, FB, because it helped dramatically when I was a BS, fighting for my marriage. And every day since, too.

"A couple of things he's said today:

-that I'm going on here to fulfill my EM needs outside of our marriage... (I guess he's insenuating I'm cheating on him?)"

Listen and repeat..."What I hear you saying is that you fear me having an affair from receiving support for my marriage on MB, is that correct?" See how hearing his stuff as his...his truth, not the truth...and repeating what you heard for clarity or confirmation is an act of respect? Do you want to have a new marriage, with acts of love and respect...or to take with you as you rebuild the old ways of communicating, reacting, assuming?

Intimacy is KNOWING your own truth and sharing it. Takes one to be intimate...two to have an intimate marriage. He can fear and that doesn't mean you are making him fear anything. He can project his fear, his pain, his anger...any of his stuff...your responsibility remains for your half of communicating...listening to his stuff as his own...validating he feels, thinks, believes or perceives...doesn't say a thing about what you, your feelings, beliefs, perceptions or perspective.

"-because I don't want to let him read over my shoulder at what I am writing right now I've 'lost my mind'"

When you eliminate DJs in yourself, you'll hear them clearly in others...and what you won't do to yourself or others, you won't allow them to do to you. Healthy boundary enforcements. Did you guys POJA posting...when your stuff will be read by the other? Did you both work out enthusiastically how you will each post to your own threads...when you will discuss each other's posts...how you will both be transparent with boundaries to respond, how you respond, to each other?

"-he keeps arguing with me about what I write on here so I've told him if it's damaging to him and is going to cause more conflict to read my threads while I work out my feelings, then he shouldn't read them, but he pretty much throws that out as an option and just wants to keep arguing with me about what I've written."

Sounds like more brainstorming is required. In my marriage, we didn't attempt POJA for two years post DDay. We had a third-party, a terrific Christian, pro-marriage MC, who helped us POJA minimally in our sessions. You haven't chosen that yet...I hope you will as part of your recovery plan. What got us through was having the goal to POJA between ourselves. And my DH saying, "We're in this together"...because we were. And are.

Listen and repeat would have been something like this "I hear you want me to write my posts differently, that you feel damaged, attacked right now. I don't know if that's because you want my feelings to be different right now, or if you fear other posters' influence on them."

"I fear conflict and hear us both arguing right now."

You own your stuff...using "I" statements...to clarify or confirm...not to judge. Not to choose your own actions. See, your actions are based on your own code...the boundaries you hold around yourself. Not to soothe, change or remedy his feelings. Your obligation is to KNOW his stuff...know it clearly. Not to judge it. Same for AW.

This clears the battlefied...for his choice to have an A made you both enemies...because A's are the enemy of the marriage. Now, in recovery, we reconcile to knowing and acting from being partners...which we always were...which is what I mean by bringing reality. Living from it. You are partners, best friends, most cherished persons...may not feel that way right now. Up to you both to know that's reality and act from it, anyway.

"-he's said something along the lines of 'why are you willing to throw yourself and emotions onto complete strangers who are hurting as well'"

Listen and repeat, "I hear you saying that your perception is that I'm throwing myself and my emotinos on complete strangers...as if I'm doing damage to them, is that correct? I see it as them offering to help us through recovery, a road they have walked themselves, signing up for this for their own reasons, which I won't presume. I'm also hearing that you fear me exposing my stuff to others, maybe from your fear of me being hurt by them, as well?"

".... but the truth is, I personally feel that while I've let my emotions be pretty raw and honest, I feel like I'm doing a good job of discerning the good from the bad... but I am still learning"

See, that's terrific honesty without assumption (if you leave off the "but"...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe I'm telling you anything you don't already know. I believe you will guard your marriage well...you won't email males on this board...part of the healing of this public board is that it stays public. That you won't exclude your FWH or compare him to others posting to you. I believe you will take in, consider and decide what is already in you, that you know, that you don't know you know.

Yeah, I'm indecipherable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"-he keeps trying to put us on the same playing field that we've both made mistakes in our M.... not an attitude that shows he understands or accepts responsibility for the A"

This, as others said, is typical of the continuing fog. The pain of remorse is crushing...full of fear...A's are in reaction to fear, from anger...a passive-aggressive action. Doesn't mean forever.

Listen and repeat will clarify or confirm what you're hearing..."I'm hearing you fear that my part in the condition of our marriage won't be addressed, that I am saying I'm not responsible for my half, is that correct? I see us as forming a bit of solid ground right now, in what is very fragile territory. I have faith we can build a new marriage, each with us owning our half in the future. That's what I'm working towards."

The A is addressed first...and in the last nine months, seems you both have been addressing it and working out the complexity of it. That's my take. To acknowledge what he's really communicating...that he feels totally blamed for everything, if that is what he's saying...is an act of respect for your marriage. To discount, accuse, judge...is an attack on your marriage.

I see some P/A behaviors in you, too, FB. Like the title of your thread...which is now misleading...has created confusion...and I hear you saying in it that you hurt worse, added to the incredible pain of AW's betrayal, the expectation that these people, including your FWH, wouldn't do this...which is your issue, not his, IMO. And you're working it through here.

Same for fearing he will turn the blame to you...rather than seeing blame isn't in healthy marriages...humans do and don't do. They choose. You are only half of the marriage and all of your half. There is no blame...no shoulds and shouldn'ts...there are two people sharing their truth and divining The Truth (actions). Tricky stuff.

You're doing it together.

"-he has gotten mad and frustrated at me each time I've been on here today even though he's been on here WAY more than me.."

Set times and follow them. You guys are both hurting, fearing partners right now. Share the opportunity to share (gosh, haven't said that before)...equal time, equal partners. Preset times...you both agree to...and you can give some of your time to him, if you're not requiring that day; and he to you. For the love of your marriage.

When we hold ourselves to our tiniest promises, we will hold ourselves to our big ones. Great practice at act from our beliefs, not reacting to our feelings in the moment.

"I am definitely weighing my options right now more than I have before. I'm tired of being responsible for our marriage getting better. I think he IS letting me carry more than my share of the burden."

You have never been resonsible for your marriage getting better. You have been entirely responsible for your half of the marriage getting better. You have to take on what you carry...and part of what you've both experienced is not seeing you had to reach for burden, define it as burden, in order to carry it.

Lay down what is not yours. That's respectful. When you focus is all over him, his stuff, then you are abandoning yourself. You may well feel deserted, discounted and abandoned. Is that him doing it? Or is it your signal to focus on you--for you only control and are responsible for your actions, your words...and your truth is solely yours.

Same for him.

"I don't want to make any rash decisions, but at the same time it's kind of scary to me that he's trying to cut me off from this."

Mind your DJs...because they make really bad decisions. Like A's...we decide them from fantasy, not reality. DJs are fantasy.

"I think it scares him for me to read things like what TYK wrote him about HOW MUCH WORK is his responsibility in this, and how much he has to prove to me, because he's clearly not willing to do that in his actions."

AW is here, on MB, posting. He chose your marriage instead of leaving you. He is being as honest right now as he chooses to be. He is choosing your marriage every single day. As are you. Don't discount his choices to recover your marriage because you don't see what you want, when you want it, in the way you want it. I did that in my marriage for 15 years...a horrible, destructive choice. I shut out the abundance because I chose to focus on lack.

So I experienced lack.

If you make judging his progress your top priority...or the lack of it...then you won't recover your marriage. You will have feelings of running away, divorcing...quitting. And you will point the finger at him because that's all you focused on. You have your own personal recovery to work at...to achieve. Separate from marital recovery. You know this...when your focus is glued to him, to his stuff, then you won't personally recover in your marriage or out of it, will you?

You're worth recoverying.

"Tonight, I tried to emphasize that I recognize now that I have a right to leave if I don't feel he's doing what he takes, (just trying to draw some boundaries that I'm not going to put up with his bullying )and he said, 'So... you've left before.'"

Own your stuff, FB...I know you are able...I've seen it in your posts. You have always had the "right" (entitlement) to divorce, to leave, biblically and lawfully. You know that. Emphasizing is threatening...an SD in my book. You chose to not divorce, to walk the road of recovery, instead. Divorce remains your last progressive boundary enforcement on this journey. The last one.

If you emphasize this last one and haven't charted out the 19 enforcements in between, then your threats are harming your marriage. Don't use it as a whip on a FWS...because that's what they were doing with the A on you, weren't they? You don't meet my ENs, then I'll let OW do it...or the church...or the stage. You LB me? I'll LB you right back...how do you like this?

He knows you can leave him any moment...and another P/A behavior was leaving when you were 9 months pregnant, choosing to see it as him throwing you out...when in reality, you chose to leave. He didn't have the power to throw you out. Please understand that's not me saying you were wrong or bad...you chose. Recognize your power of choice, and your limitations (you cannot cause, control or cure your partner, or anyone else on this planet)...so you don't react to feeling powerless, like emphasizing, reminding or repeating you have the right to leave.

When we feel helpless, we can take it as a signal that we are dwelling where we have no power...in making others act, think, believe, feel or perceive differently. We cannot. God didn't give us that power in our design. For anyone.

Which means humans can live in freedom, responsibility and love, and flourish in our connections...just as in our relationship with God...because of his design.

AW's fear is his own...as is yours. He can choose to rebuild your trust through his actions...transparency, following the rule of care, time and the policy of joint agreement. In doing this, he also rebuilds his trust in himself...and neither of you will get to blind trust again...because he's an ordained minister...nor because you are a faithful wife...nor because of his upbringing nor yours. Blind trust is fantasy. You each choose daily your lives...to honor your marriage or to tear at it. Each of you choose the other as your husband, your wife, daily.

Knowing your choices lets in those love deposits...your own acts of love fills your love banks, as well. You each can thrive individually and as partners.

Learning to partner is what you're doing right now...feeling around for the boundaries, the guidelines...what you even choose your actions from...which is all about recovery...includes addressing the affair and choices pre-A...complex, layered and a process.

You're soaking in it.

Eliminate your own DJs...use listen and repeat for clarity...so each of you is really heard, understood...not judged or changed. See yourselves as two whole, separate individuals, growing side by side...with the same goal.

You're choosing to be in this together.

See how you're already doing this...and continue to make those healthy, loving choices, for yourself, your partner and your marriage.

LA

Beatiful post LA, I hope both of you really read this and draw from it.

WE ARE PULLING FOR YOU, both of you, and your M. There is much hope for you both. Probably the thing that will help both of you the most is patience. With yourselves, and each other.

Thank you, Tyk. Gotta say, we know where they are...where we've been.

Would be great if they would read your entire thread to understand you know this road...and to understand who you are...because you're a hero, too.

Thank you for all you do here on MB, Tyk.

LA