Then you are not following the MB principles. It is extremely disrespectful of you to tell someone who is so much more in tune to the teachings here than you are that they are naive. This is MB, not MyRevalation's rant site. BobP was able to protect his children and assets from his WW while trying to fix his marriage at the same time. It about being proactive, not reactive.

The article is an example of the tragic flaws in our system. That anyone is capable of taking someone for so much in D that they cannot then supprt themsleves afterward, and are unable to see their children when they were good parents because one spouse is vindictive and cruel, is unbelievable. It is a glaring example of the ridiculous extremes with which WE as a society have let the courts/legal system thrive in recent years. It is our jobs as US citizens to keep these things in check. But too many have decided it's not worth it to actually DO something about it, other than complain in private.

I am with meremortal and maggie on the gradual decline of feminism into the gutter. But, unfortuanately it seems to be human nature that we take a good idea and twist it and distort it into something that is so far from where it began that it needs another name (in this case, maybe "bimboism" would be fitting!

((edited to switch Hopeforus to MyRevelation (sorry hopeforus!!))

I think we are on the same page. In general (there are always exceptions), WW lead with their hearts, and if they're not willing to "snap out of it" upon discovery, IMHO, they may be too far gone to ever be a viable marriage partner.

In a lot of instances, even after the OM has cut and run, often the WW will still continue to rub her BH's face in it with her hystrionics and misplaced blame.

Speaking only for myself, but I drew a line in the dirt within minutes of discovery (and it was the best thing I did, before I even new MB existed) ... him or me??? ... my WW's first response was "I don't know what I want" ... to which I replied, "Well you better make up your mind, and quick, because you will only get one shot to answer the question correctly" ... and I MEANT IT. If she would have continued to waiver (and definately if she had said "him") she would have been shown the door right then and there.

There are real differences in how Men and Women deal with betrayal, and I gaurantee you that if a man doesn't have SELF-RESPECT, he won't have the respect of his Wife either. In way too many cases, we see men allow their wives to disrespect and humiliate them, and they accept it rather than stand up for themselves in the mistaken belief that confronting their wives will drive them away, when the exact opposite is true.

Sorry for the personal rant, but hopefully it helped illustrate my point.

"Actually sociopathy is on the rise (read The Sociopath Next Door). "

"dudette, that book was SUCH an eye-opener for me. I just never even realized that there were actually people out there that don't feel, who don't have a conscience.'

Scary isn't it? (And to think I was married to one of 'em!)

Recently on a tv program they had this rep from a company that sold alibis to adulterers. A lawyer was trying to tell the company rep that they were going to run into legal problems becuase basically they were selling alibis that could be used to cover up crimes AND the lawyer also pointed out that even if the alibis are 'only' used for adultery cover-ups, the company could end up in divorce and/or civil court having to pay damages to the BS! And THEN the guest who was either a psychiatrist or psychologist told that company rep that what she was doing was assisting sociopathic behavior! I thought it was great that he was referring to adultery as sociopathic behavior!

IMHO all adultery is sociopathic behavior. In most cases the sociopathic behavior is only temporary - until the WS comes out of the fog. But BOTH types of adulterers, the ones who are serial adulterers because they are sociopaths, and the ones who are thinking and acting like sociopaths while they are involved in adultery, are increasing in numbers.

In any case, the topic of this thread was the cases of wealthy women dumping their workaholic husbands, and then extorting huge support sums from them wasn't it? And these were cases specifically where the BH's didn't even know the WW was supposedly so unhappy with their choice to work so many hours, right? I don't remember reading in the article that these wives had talked to their husbands about supposeldy having a GREATER need for attention than for money.

Acknowledging that there are women who do that, and that it is wrong, is in no way an argument against MB principles.

There are people that no matter how much you understand Mb principles, and no matter how much you work at applying them, will never be faithful spouses. And those folks are not as rare as some assume. It's not just that there is more opportunity nowadays or that not enough people have heard about MB principles yet... There really is an integrity deficit in our society that is increasing. That is why we are seeing more books with titles like 'The Sociopath Next Door' instead of books entitled: 'Remember When There Used To Be Sociopaths in Society?'

The truth is that a LOT of people, even if they were told about MB principles and given the opportunity to work on making their marriage affair proof would NOT choose to do so and instead would cheat and/or divorce anyway.

I used to believe that surely my WXH would stop cheating and would stay married to me if only he knew more stuff about making marriages better... that it was simply a matter of reaching him with the right info... basically an educational problem... But the truth was he never intended to get all his needs (WANTS) met by his wife, inside his marriage. And he is not exactly a rarity; there are lots of folks just like him, male and female, who are cheaters. They do not want to POJA with anybody about anything LOL But hey, if you want to knock yourself out trying to please them and waste a bunch of years on them (with or without MB principles) they sure won't mind!

The article this thread is about is IMHO a serious problem that really does happen and really does need to be addressed. I personally think these men are being treated horribly and that whether or not they applied MB principles the outcome would have been the same in most cases BECAUSE those particular women would NOT have chosen to give up the big money for more time with their husbands! It is obvious in these specific cases the women most certainly ARE interested in money, LOTS of money, and therefore are being dishonest when they pretend they would have been happier if their husbands spent less time working.

I agree completely. This has been going on for a while now, and it should be stopped. But we are the only ones who can stop it ("we the people") and the only way to do that is to take action against it.

So how can we prevent an adulterer/sociopath/abuser from completely destroying their victims?

BTW-hopeforus, I was not trying to attack you personally, I am sorry for the sitch you are in...

This is the heart of article, really. That financial devastation can occur is a tragedy. The problem is an adversarial system, winner-takes-all mentality. It's bad enough when one has a 401k looted or is kicked out of the house or victimized by spurious TROs, but the truly sick side-effect is how children are used as pawns for monetary gain.

Non-custodial parents are treated as indentured servants. You will find that courts care not one whit about "visitation", only about the money. This is why gaining primary custody at all costs, no matter how morally bankrupt the tactics, is Job One.

There are people who are trying hard to get the laws changed. I am acquainted with one here in Ohio who has gone all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court. But these people are up against a billion dollar divorce industry who have little incentive to change, despite the "best interests of the child" bilge they spew.

To save your marriage it is imperative to follow MB principles, but these principles are not 100% reliable so it is wise to protect yourself in case you go to plan-D.

I say pre-nups for all!!! LOL

No seriously, if/when I marry again I think I want it in writing exactly what my husband's most important EN's are... And I won't marry a man with 'needs' (wants) that can't possibly be met by one mere mortal female LOL!

IMHO the women in the article, even if their husbands had known about MB principles and had asked their wives to choose between them working less - having less money, or working the same amount or even more - having as much or more money, they would have chosen the latter. And then they would have still divorced their husbands because they figured out they could have his money AND be single too.

Now I'm not talking about the rich dudes who dump their wives for the younger trophy wife... and then the young trophy wife dumps him and takes a lot of his money with her... IMHO those guys are different and don't deserve much sympathy. Let's just say they get what they paid for... ahem... After a few trophy wives they eventually catch on to the fact that the reason a much younger, beautiful woman would marry them is (duh) for their money so they start getting pre-nups anyway.

I'll accept that. I'm glad you said that. I was sitting her thinking how I was going to respond.

If my replies turned into a rant, it wasn't intended. I was agreeing with the premise that there are WW's out there that want all the "things" that their corporate ladder climbing Husbands can provide (and all the work that goes to get there) and then have an A because their workaholic hubby's aren't there for them.

My WW is an example. Just trying to illustrate it.

In general I agree with your statement. But how would you define accept it. I have seen some FWW's seem to have a deeper sense of love and admiration for the BH's due to the period of time in which they navigated through the WW's disrespectful behavior. So clearly the BH accepted some disrespectful behavior, but regained or maintained his WW's respect in the process.

I shuddered when I read this article, because that could have been me. My wife was preparing to divorce me, take the kids and move out of state three years ago, and I didn't see it coming. She had stopped arguing and fighting with me, so I figured everything was getting better between us, when in fact she was in the "state of withdrawal" and emotionally distancing herself from me.

Looking back, I can see the signs of her discontent were all there - but like the men in the article, I was oblivious to them.

The other thing is that I was not a workaholic making lots of money. If things had gone unchecked, my wife would probably have tried to take me for everything she could get, but she was under no illusions that it would be enough to support her and the kids. In fact, that is what prevented her from divorcing me long enough for me to get a clue what was going on, make changes, and woo her back.

I think K's points are very valid. K - you were one of the first people to post to me when I arrived here in Feb 2005. IIRC, you recognized my username... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Billions of blistering blue barnacles in ten thousand thundering typhoons---it's Cuthbert!

Cheers, old friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I shuddered, too. And this has been going on for quite some time. Back about 12 years ago, my H watched a really cool guy he worked with lose his house, be reduced to less than a part-time dad, and have to live on next-to-nothing while his wife got everything. He worked his butt off to build her a beautiful home. She had an A with another woman, and then got the house and most of the money he made in alimony (while she did not work). He then had to live in an efficiency apartment. He was a broken man. My H came home completely heartsick for him. After all these years, I still remember how upsetting it was, and I didn't even know the guy!

Good to hear that there are people trying to get the laws changed! I am in OH myself, so I will look into seeing how I can support their efforts any way I can! Have you got any info on that movement?

IMO, in these cases, it comes down to the individual level of self-respect the BH has in each situation. If the BH can maintain his self-respect, plus have the ability to get past the betrayal, it can work, because his WW will still be able to respect her H. However, if the WW has already crushed the BH's self-respect, as it appears happens in too many instances, then she will not ever have any respect for him and there truly is no real M to R.

I found emails from my wife to the OM and her thought was to divorce me and get the house and kids and alimony and leave me with nothing. I think the laws encourage divorce by women.

Imagine if men could walk away with what they earn and the house and the kids if they dumped there wife? Add on to that what if there wife had to pay them child support and alimony. I would think that the divorce stats would change by a great amount.

This to me is the problem with marriage today. You don't want the woman to be deserted and have kids to care for by her husband. On the other hand if marriage is to be strengthened the abuse of men has to stop.

My brother is not living at home today. He could not find a job so he had to move to another state. His wife would not come with him. I did find him a very good job but his wife won't come to where he lives and he sends about all of his pay to her for the kids. He tells me at least this way he can see them.

This does not happen in every state but men better start fighting back or they get rolled. Men should not be mister nice guy or they get sodomized

Now to add to my brothers story his wife is having an affair also but to see his kids he just accepts it.

In my own divorce I was going to give up my job and go to jail if I had to before I was going to bend over for my wife. Would my kids have suffered yes they would but I had worked hard my whole life and it was a valley that I was ready to die on.

I can't even think why a woman should not divorce a man in today’s world. On the other hand I can't think of a reason that a man should marry a woman. This all is very sad.

YEP!!!!!!!!!

Many women use their children and divorce as pawns to get more money out of the their H....doesn't matter if he was the WS or the BS, he gets abused just the same by the courts. Men are even more abused when it comes to custody.

And please note that when a woman is ordered to pay child support....they are 700% less likely to do so that the father's that are so frequently vilified in the press.

I personally know of several women that are NOT getting married again and merely live with their boyfriend because they don't want the gravy train to go off its tracks. Prostitution is alive and well in the United States.

Oh, and what a fight my ex put up when I went after her for child support. I used to give her 40% more than I was required to do...but with her, it is like getting blood out of a stone just to get what she is supposed to pay. Pathetic.

US census data shows that out of the 11.9 Billion dollars of child support actually paid...11.2 billion went to mothers! Best interest of the child my asss.

"Many women use their children and divorce as pawns to get more money out of the their H....doesn't matter if he was the WS or the BS, he gets abused just the same by the courts. Men are even more abused when it comes to custody."

And unfortunately some women apparently HAVE kids just to get child support from the kids' fathers. My WXH sure was surprised (and freaked out) when he found out the OW expected him to have kids with her! I asked him why since she already had a kid from another man and he's the one who told me that she was always on the phone yelling at her kid's father to give her more 'child support' money? AND he was also telling me that she was a real 'mall rat' too... Surely she wasn't interested in my husband just because he made $55 per hour... Sheesh - now that WAS an example of a male not seeing the signs LOL!

"And please note that when a woman is ordered to pay child support....they are 700% less likely to do so that the father's that are so frequently vilified in the press."

Wow! I didn't know that. I knew that most times it's the fathers who are ordered to pay child support instead of the mothers. But I wasn't aware of the percentage of 'deadbeat' moms! Hopefully the efforts to get them to comply with court ordered support are just as diligent as they are with deadbeat dads?

"I personally know of several women that are NOT getting married again and merely live with their boyfriend because they don't want the gravy train to go off its tracks. Prostitution is alive and well in the United States."

This is one of the many reasons I do not date. Part of the support money I get is not child support but 'maintenance' (alimony but I guess they call it that instead here). I could continue to get it if I dated or even if I lived with another man. But I don't think that would be right. I want to be financially independent from my WXH for several reasons: he could get laid off or heaven forbid something happen to him, he could skip out and stop paying support, he could get involved with an OW or remarried and divert his money into that... I don't really feel much financial security being so dependent on the support money from him. I know I am entitled to the support money for several valid reasons (giving up my career to be a stay-at-home mom, giving up my home-based business to move around with his job changes as the thing he claimed would cure him of his adultery problem, his midlife crisis/OW/divorce costing us all our savings) but when I start a new life with a new man, and even before then, I want to be able to support myself without my WXH's money. I'd like nothing more than to someday be financially able to tell WXH to keep his money - I don't want or need it!

There were many periods of time during my marriage when my husband had to work long hours, travel, and even be gone for months. I didn't use that as an excuse to cheat on him or to divorce him because my EN's weren't being met by him.

It's a matter of integrity IMHO.

I have no problem with this article. I think it represents real men who have experienced real trauma as a result of divorce. I could find you stories of real women with real horror stories too. This is not a balanced or definitive article with some kind of "final word" on the subject of divorce, by any means. For every article like this one....there are 5 other articles and other research that present the exact opposite perspective.

It's hard to know....which of these "experts" or writers has really unearthed the truth about divorce. The data is often conflicting from study to study.

Even the media has trouble presenting us with a balanced view of current issues....this article is no different. Here are just a few articles that present the other side or both sides (and there are many many many more)....because the research is NOT conclusive except for one thing: Divorce Sucks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/11/national/main514935.shtml
http://www.troubledwith.com/Relationships/A000000830.cfm?topic=relationships%3A%20divorce
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/64864/a_new_study_reveals_the_effects_of.html

I don't really think this is about gender. I think most men are good men who love their children and have no intention of impoverishing their family. I think most of them are not "dead-beats", kidnappers, or sexual abusers. I also think most women are not gold digging b*tches out to take their husband's to the cleaners.

Unfortunately.....most of those regular people are not interesting enough to make the news.

If you look at ALL the research and ALL the articles about divorce....you can only come to ONE conclusion:

Divorce benefits nobody.

Not men.

Not women.

Not children.

Not society.

It lowers the standard of living for everyone....not just men...and not just women....and always children

Divorce is a tragedy that effects the health and wellbeing of all involved.

It does no one any good to vilify either sex.

Divorce is an equal opportunity destroyer.

K,

I just read your story over on Hopeforus' thread, and I think I see exactly where we got off on the wrong foot. We are simply wired the exact opposite. Its your life and you can live it how you see fit, but I simply couldn't (nor would I even want to) live your life under your circumstances. On the flip side, you probably couldn't (nor even want to) live my lifestyle.

While it may not seem so, the above statement is not a put-down at all, just acknowledging the inherent differences in people and why I don't view MB principles as a "one size fits all" solution like some here do.

I think the MB principles do an excellent job of breaking up an A, but there success in R is only marginal, because people are different and marry for a variety of reasons. Therefore, I see many marriages that are irretrieveably broken prior to ever implementing the first MB principle, and here is where we probably differ.

We all want different things from our lives, and obviously, some will settle for much less than others will.

The one part of your post that I will take exception with is the condescending attitude exhibited in your paragraph #3. How long you've been a part of MB is meaningless to me. In fact, some of the worst advice I've seen given on this forum have come from some of those with the highest post counts. To me, the rigidness of some of the long time posters negates their effectiveness in dealing with the nuances of different situations and especially different personalities.

Based on the above, I have a feeling that our definitions of marital success are quite different, which doesn't make either wrong, just different.

K naive? Nah, not possible.

And why "just" DV, if WWs are such unredeemable people? Why not tor2re? Or death by firing squad?

And as one continuing 2 recover after my W's 11-yr LTA, I'm glad there are people like K around. I still don't believe I've done all I can, and it'll be 6 years since d-day in about 3 1/2 weeks.

I think it'd be cool if my W would agree 2 even coach with SH after all this time. I might just ask her one of these days.

I haven't always followed the MB methods, but I don't disagree with them so strongly as 2 suggest that it doesn't matter what someone with extensive experience with them has 2 say. There are plenty of infidelity related sites out there that have no method - just a bunch of BSs, WSs, and OPs duking it out on message boards.

-ol' 2long

You can apply this to BOTH a WH or a WW, MyRevelation.

A WW is no more immuned to the Harley's principles than is a WH.

I've been reading here for years and have witnessed it hundreds if not thousands of times. I'd say thats irrefutable evidence in of itself.

Jo