Hope everybody else had a good holiday. Mine wasn't so hot. Whe she told me she wanted to have a good Christmas this year, I foolishly thought she meant "us"... What a dope.

I had four days off from work, and thought we could have a great time together, celebrating the holiday and being together. Instead, she basically spent the whole weekend acting cold, distant and pissy toward me. I did have fun playing with my son and his presents from Santa. But all in all it was just tense and unpleasant.

Just for a little holiday frosting on the cake, I went to our room to read a special thing that I've been reading from time to time lately to remind myself of our good times, and why I should still love my wife.
It's a journal that my wife started a few months before our wedding. It's filled with loving hopeful thoughts. Excitement about our life together how wonderful I am, things like that. There really are only a few pages written, most from around the time of our wedding, and a few pages from a couple of years later around the time of our son's birth. What a wonderful father I will be, how great a husband I am, how lucky she is to have found me, you get the picture.
She hasn't written in it for years, just keeps it on her dresser, and I find it a nice reminder of happier times.
So I pick it up and discover that near the back there's a new entry! HOPE?.. New loving thoughts about our future?.. Sadly, no.
I find the following sentiments :
"I wake up wanting to see you, I fall asleep wanting to hear about your day."
"You are the perfect person, never change. I love you."
"Would it scare you if I told you that I love you?"
Things to this effect...
Clearly they're not written to me. They can't be more than a week old or so.
She has violated one of my most cherished testaments to our love with thoughts about that Rat B*st*rd!!

So in our MC last night, the fact that she talked to him "I didn't call him" (yeah, but you answered when he did, and chatted, exchanging merry Christmases etc...)came out.

Our Counselor adequately covered how harmful my "controlling" ways are to my marriage, and how WW needs to have her privacy. Thankfully she did spend a little time pointing out some of WW's twisted logic about contacting OM, and mentioned that it sounded like an addiction (no sh*t!).
We ended the session with a rousing game of "let's make a request of each other to stop one behavior that we don't like in each other".

I'll take infidelity for five hundred!

WW went first, and couldn't think of any thing that I should stop or do differently. Oh No..
But wait! Counselor prodded and cajoled and got "stop spying" out of her.
I of course selected the old reliable "end the affair / NC" for my choice.

Bob, Tell them what they've won!

So now we seem to have a "New" NC agreement in place brokered by Counselor in which I must promise not to "Spy" on WW...
What the F?!

Apparently my voicing concern about yet another NC attempt is too "controlling" for the therapy session, so I was unable to explain to our "healthcare professional" that we've tried this unsuccessfully about ten times already.
But I guess maybe now that there's someone else holding her accountable it will work this time, right? (yeah, right...)

I did manage to tell WW that I feel like I care more about her than she does, and I have concerns about her fixing whatever self esteem or other issues she has that cause her self-destructive behavior, and make her need to seek outside validation, (remember "flirting"?)... But we'll see.

We went to dinner after, and she basically said that she's not really in love with me anymore, she thinks she loves him. She's afraid she'll lose "that" if she chooses me and it doesn't work out blah, blah, blah...
Needless to say I'm not really a happy camper right now.
Sorry for the rant, but I need to vent, and you guys are all I have.
I'm trying to think of another way or someone else to expose to. Thinking about calling OMW again to give her the update.
Can I take out a restraining order on him to not call WW's phone? Should I contact his work to inform them of the restraining order? She loves to go stop by and see him there. Is this the type of thing that will seal my fate as far as ending her fading love for me?
What the h*ll?...

TTH,

I am so sorry you're going through this right now. Please do one hugely important step for your marriage...GET RID OF THAT COUNSELOR right away.

Call the Harleys, instead. Seriously.

You aren't spying...you are actively verifying the truth instead of accepting lies from your WW. Would you not spy on an addict? Your own counselor is tripped up...

Ours told WH flat out--you've got to have NC with OW at all, period, if you want to make a clear decision on whether to leave your marriage for OW, leave it for yourself or stay and work on it. Period. OM's influence has to be closed off or she won't be able to have clarity.

Means...she's got to get off the drug to know what reality is...and yes, we verify the truth and don't try to get it out of drug addicts, nor expect them to tell the truth, either.

Did you actually say, "The one lovebusting I need you to stop is your active affair. As long as you have contact, accept contact, you continue your affair."

Calm, reasonable...and you offer, "I will stay very aware of my urge to control...I know it's strong when I hurt this deeply, like I do now. I know I cannot really control you...I promise to tell you when I have the urge, want to attempt and when I do not."

Call the Harleys.

The fog is REAL, TTH...remember that. Picture her in a haze, on opium...so she's gonna write in what's cherished by you...and have no clue you'll be upset...she's gonna accept OM's call and play nice...because she justifies everything...barely senses she's attacking her marriage.

Bring reality...respectfully. "I know you chose to take OM's call instead of block it. I know you know you attacked our marriage again...and that we aren't in recovery, not even working on our marriage when you take that drug again."

She once felt drugged by you, TTH...you were a clean slate, and she made up a lot of you...projected great stuff onto you...and over time, we come to know each other's true selves...which can be rough...and necessary...only way through to that mature love, the third stage of marriage. Tough as heck, though...because we may not like what we see in ourselves or each other...which is why we love the whole...all pieces...not parts.

You can't control her resentment, entitlement, lack of respect...you can bring reality steadily, inject respect...and do a great Plan A. You can't if you're kicking your own butt, 'k? Put the foot down. Back away from the foot.

Or aim it at the counselor. Enabling her A instead of calling her on it...our MC "So you're going to pay me to help you make a clear decision while you're still under OW's influence? How logical is that?"

WH quit OW same day.

And he MOURNED her...saying, "If I don't think about her, then I won't want to be with her if I decide to divorce you and be with her!"

Reality will come through...prayer, awareness of your stuff, your actions...your issues...and reality. Don't get sucked into her fog, 'k?

You are not alone. We've been there. We promise.

LA

Hi TTH,

Your story sounds a little like my New Years last year.

Those new notes in the journal hit hard. Sorry man.


That's the kind of agreements Germany worked for just before they invaded Poland and France. Don't stop snooping.

Trytoo,

My friend, it sounds like NC to your WW does not mean jack. She just makes the sounds to get you to calm down.

Many promises of NC broken repeatedly over last few months...
Most recent NC broken:
Called to wish him Happy Thanksgiving.
12/12/07 (she "stopped by to visit")
Christmas Day!

You can't really call this NC. This is more like fence sitting and cake eating. So plan A will not do the trick if she is comfortable with you plan A'ing while she sits on her fence thinking about the low-life.

And, yes, get rid of that MC!! Ask the MC why your W needs privacy and ask her(him?) if she has heard of TRANSPARENCY!

You most DEFINITELY should compare notes with OMW and bring her up to date. Maybe it will be a big surprise to her, which will be a good thing.

kirk

I'll jump on the "dump the counselor" bandwagon. Call the Harley's for an appointment: 888-639-1639.

When I think of contacting OMW again, it hurts me because I'll have to basically tell her that my wife loves her husband, and the thought of giving him the satisfaction of knowing that kills me. I don't think she's told him this...
Also, I know OM (can I just start using RB for Rat Bast*rd?) will call WW, and I'm not sure if I want to create the opportunity to break NC ( I know, it's WW's choice...)
This just seems really messed up to have to call OMW to warn her about my wife's feelings for her RB...
She likes her IC who doesn't think it's important to end an affair prior to working on marriage issues. We discussed that last night in MC with other counselor who basically supported WW's position and shot me down. Man I'm getting tired of being the "problem" when WW is actively engaged and falling further for RB...
What about other measures I can take to try to make NC more likely? Further exposure? Restraining order? Loisville Slugger?...
Thoughts, comments?

TTH,
I swore off this forum about a week ago , wanted a break, so to speak.

Then I did a drive by reading today and noticed your post .

Incredible!! You have, I assume been doing a great plan A since Dday in August.?

That would make your plan A about four mos now, which means it's reaching it's limit, according to Dr H.

After four mos of plan A, without producing good results, you are IMHO, reaching the limits of what you are capable in plan A.

At some point very soon, the only way to preserve your sanity and the love for your W, will be a very good plan B.

Please lose the loser C's that you have now, as they have no clue how to save your M. Privacy consists of your W being able to close the door when she uses the bathroom. Nothing more.!

For your WW to disrespect you and the family on Christmas day, is beyond reproach. This is the ultimate disrespect to you and your family, and only goes to prove that you are nowhere near R and the path that it takes. I'm sorry to say this, but there is no evidence to the contrary.
First and foremost, LOSE the C's that you have as they don't have a clue. Stop wasting your money. Counsel with the Harleys.They will not steer you wrong.

This has been going on too long. You need to find a proactive way to kill this A. If calling OMW will help, then by all means do so.

Exposure is your best weapon.
If your C doesn't get that, you are wasting huge amounts of money to someone who probably got their letters behind their name from a correspondence course on a matchbook.

Prepare yourself for plan B. It may be your last chance. You cannot continue to live your life in this insanity for very much longer. It will affect you and your children very soon.

Time for damage control, with or without your WW.

All blessings,
Jerry

Aren't journals just wonderful? They are so full of new information at every turn of the page...

I once found several pages in a notebook my wife used for taking notes at church during the sermons where she was comparing me and OM, listing our good points and bad. Funny how in the beginning she listed one of OM's bad points as being a serial cheater and another that he was a problem drinker. Another issue he had in her estimation was that he was a player.

My faults were more numerous...

I didn't make as much money as OM made.
I had a smaller house than OM.
I worked too much.
I spent too much time doing things for the church.
I didn't take her out partying very often.
I didn't like to dance.

And my favorite...with me, the newness had worn off.

I won't go into our respective good attributes...

Mark

I haven't done a particularly good Plan A, partly because I didn't find MB until about two months ago, and also I'm pretty transparent, and don't do very well hiding my true feelings or emotions.

I agree that we're pretty much at critical mass right now, and I need to prepare for the next step I hope I don't have to take.

What about exposing to the workplace where this started. Perhaps I can embarrass him away from there. WW doesn't work there anymore, but likes to stop by to see her "friends"...
Whaddya think?

I am sorry that you are going thru this. I would agree with the majority and say that the first thing you need to do is drop that counselor and get someone who is more aggressive at getting to the real problems and coming up with some solutions to get your marriage back on track. Spying is not the issue...if your BS was not having an extramarital affair there would be no need to spy.
I would also say that exposing the affair at OMM job is a good idea and if you think that OMW can help in anyway in trying to end the affair on her end then yes by all means update her that the affair is still going because she does need to know.
Keep being the loving person that you are and show her what she saw in you before. You are still that person that she wrote about in the journal and the two of you still can have the life you dreamed of when you said your vows. The work ahead will be hard but worth it if you still love your wife and want this marriage to work.

Should I do IC w/ Harleys first? WW seems somewhat open to the idea of it, but I wonder if I should do IC first...

So I checked the journal again this morning, and there's another entry on her "back" page. Something about holding him in a perfect something blah blah blah...
Really pisses me off that she's intentionally doing this after I asked her to please not write about someone else in our book of love. How spiteful...
I want to expose to OMW again with an update, and need some help with what to say, and maybe more importantly what not to say when I do.
I am also thinking about exposing to OM's (my wifes former) employer. I would like to drive him away from there in shame. My wife has other friends who work there, and she likes to see them too. If he didn't work there anymore, it might increase chances for NC. I could use some advice on that too.
I guess it really comes down to whether WW decides to quit the A or not. All of the Plan A, Plan B etc seems predicated on the wayward pulling their head out of their stinky place. If they don't, nothing will work.
I really need some help right now. I have not felt closer to ending this marriage, for the sake of my sons and my own health, than now. I think I need to get plan B ready. I think if she breaks NC one more time she has to go. And I need to be prepared for that.
I hope that she doesn't force me to lie to my son about what a great person she is. Even after what she's putting me through, I would never belittle or demean her to our boy...
Please someone help.

You probably don't need to spy anymore. You know its ongoing. If you do spy don't let on what you know. I don't know if any of this will help but here are some things that helped me.

1) What would she do if she only had 6 months left to live?

2) Analogy:
Feelings and emotions are like riding in a dinghy in a stormy ocean. Storms and feelings come and go, waves toss you about in all different directions. It is easy to sink by acting on feelings because you never have direction to find harbor or land. But faith, morals, values, and vows are the lighthouse. Guided by the lighthouse you will find what you need.

Feelings come and go. Just as she has fallen out of love with you she CAN fall out of love with OM. Then you will have a chance to fall in love with each other again if she can see to give your marriage that oppurtunity.

3) Have you been praying?

4) anti depressants. My wife committed to NC many times and broke them all. I still don't have that. But on Friday 12/21 she started on Zoloft. Yesterday she said I have become an amazing man (through plan A), that she knows she wants to be with me to dance at our children's weddings and see our grandchildren born. She attributes a big mood shift to the ADs.

5) If you accept reality it will be easier to state facts to her without judgement. Example: I did not sleep at home on 12/20 trying to implement plan B. My wife threatened me the next day by saying that if I didn't call her in the morning she would file for divorce. I of course panicked about that but... I realized that if she is going to continue to have a relationship with OM then D is probably the best thing for us both. And I was ready to state that fact. Bring reality to her without emotion. Fact, she is attacking your marriage with each contact. After plan A for 5-6 months, I was ready to move on without her and find someone who would be willing to meet my needs too. My MC said I gave the best plan A possible and that I would come through this in tact. That gave me confidence. And I think when WW realized what plan B really meant some lightbulbs went on. Then she was the one who was up at 2 am panicking instead of me.

6) I sent email to OM... "Please know I will do whatever it takes to keep my family and marriage together." It lets him know that you have a way bigger committment to this than he does. Maybe it will set him thinking about greener pastures with less baggage.

7) Exposure- double edged sword. Proceed with caution but use it if no other tools are working. Marriage will survive her anger but not her A. Is it PA and EA?

Your plan A is long. If you feel your love is gone for her and you may start LBing alot then maybe you should go to plan B. I knew it because she came home one night throwing it in my face. I couldn't take it anymore. But you also might have the strength to stick around as the A fizzles out and provide a soft landing place for her.

I've done a better job not LB'ing in the last month or so, but pretty much did LB unknowingly for the first couple of months.
She says when I blame her for our marriage falling apart, a little more love for me flies away. (from her journal)
How does the Wayward mind possibly let this make sense?
The analogy I gave her is that unless I stop bleeding and crying out in pain,she's going to keep stabbing me.
Kind of like the old "the beatings will continue until morale improves"...
I did talk to MIL last night and she wants to get more involved. She speaks to WW often, and in fact spoke to her the day after Christmas. She asked WW if things were better, and if she'd called RB. (She knows about supposed NC). WW told(lied) to her that it was better, and that she hadn't called RB. Technically not a lie, as RB called WW on Christmas, but untrue and deceitful none the less.
She is lying to her mother about her affair.
She is lying to me about her affair.
She is lying to our family (myself and our son) about her affair.
She is lying to her friends about her affair.
Who else is she lying to?
What information is crackpot IC doling out based on WW's warped perception of this "friendship"?
I want to do more exposure, but there's not a lot of folks left that might have any influence over her.
I also remain hopeful that one day we can reconcile, that she can end this sewer romp with RB and come back to reality and building a life together, and I don't want to hurt her (how F'd up is that?)
Facing another long weekend of misery with an alien sewer dweller and need a little comfort...

Trytohard don't underestimate the power of exposing the affair. Affairs thrive in secrecy, if she did not care about it being exposed she would not be lying to everyone she cares about. Good people do make bad mistakes and your wife is one of them. I would definitely recommend you calling the harleys for counseling. If you feel you could benefit or need IC first then do so. Counseling will only help and identify issues/problems you may or may not been aware of that is affecting your marriage and life in general.
What has been your recourse each time she has broken NC??? You have to set guidelines of what is acceptable in your marriage and there needs to be consequences for breaking NC. Plan B should be the next step. I must ask before you go into Plan B did you do a really good Plan A??? also I think you should go ahead with the exposure at OMM job since your wife visits frequently with other friends there...that is a grounds for them to continue to see each other. Was the OMW receptive to the news when you first exposed to her? What were her thoughts on her husband's extramarital affair?

Hi Try! Sorry I've been away for a while...took some holiday time and was sick for a couple days.

I just read through this thread to get up to speed on all the yucky-ness I've missed. I am so sorry about the journal. And the MC and IC...good grief! Nice that on top of all the crap you are putting up with trying to recover your marriage that these "professionals" feel the need to accuse you of spying and being controlling. Unreal. Please stop wasting your money on these people...P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!!!

Call the Harley's, man, seriously. Think about a very dark Plan B if you feel like you are losing what's left of your love for her. I don't like to give advice much b/c I am still working on my own problems, but you need to take care of yourself. Remember that while I am not promoting this approach whatsoever, my sitch is much like bigpicture's...when w2s seriously told me he wanted a D is when the reality hit. The thing that makes it different is that I had maintained NC for MONTHS at that point, and she is still not even close. Not even CLOSE!

The thing that makes me know you will be OK no matter what is that you are able to be so friggin FUNNY in the midst of this F'd-up stroll thru he11. You are a gem, and she knows it somewhere inside of her- you know, where the alien hasn't taken over yet! Don't lose that person you know you are inside!

BTW, "How does the wayward mind possibly let this make sense?" Are you serious?!!! Here ya go- THE WAYWARD MIND DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL-PERIOD!!! So stop trying to make sense out of it. I still can't, and I just got done living in that mess of a mindset. Honestly, I just cannot explain it at all. Especially now that the wondeful world of reality has taken hold of me again. In fact, I bet if you took a picture of me now it would be the deer in headlights thing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Goin to bed...DH is picking on me for being up at 3:30a.m. I'll write again tomorrow...please take care of yourself!!!

You need to get a different MC ASAP - preferably one who understands MB principles, but at the VERY LEAST one who will not reinforce your wife's already warped thinking that she has some sort of right to 'privacy' in regards to contacting the OM.

And most definitely inform the OM's wife that he contacted your wife on Christmas day!

I agree with the dump the MC movement. My WH and I counseled with an MC for 4 months and she never picked up on my H's affair.
When we first reconciled, we then counseled with the Harleys. Worth every penny. But H refused to continue. Fast forward, because he was still talking to OW twice a week. I didn't know.
5 months ago we started with a counselor who is very familiar with MB principles and is treating the whole family.
Read everything you can on this site. Listen to LA - she is awesome.
Sorry you are going through this.

Well, an interesting turn of events this weekend. I guess I don't have to contact OMW.
Apparently, MIL tracked down Mr & Mrs RB, and called them. I don't really know what she said, or what was said to her, but WW was upset at her for doing it, but has seemed to calm down a little bit. OMW sent her a scathing email about how crazy WE are, and if our "crazy family" doesn't leave them alone, they're gonna call the cops, get a restraining order, blah blah blah. WW has realized that RB threw her under the bus regarding the nature of their "friendship", and WW's pissed at RB. Thank god she's finally begun to see that he's not such a great guy. She seems genuinely remorseful (I'm somewhat skeptical), and wants to get "better". She says she realizes that I love her, and said she's glad she has me fighting for her.
I am so mentally and emotionally wiped out right now that I'm not sure how to take all this. I guess cautiously optomistic might be the best way to put it, but I'm hesitant as I don't think I can take another betrayal. So I hang on...
She was very upset and crying the night after this all went down, and I went to comfort her. I told her that in spite of all she's put me through, and how much it pains me to do so, I will be there for her to comfort and support her while she goes through the withdrawal. I also asked her to wear her wedding ring again (we haven't worn them in at least a couple of months), so that when she feels alone, she will have a reminder of me, and that I'm with her, that she's not alone.
The next day she put mine back on too.
Again, I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high, but it at least feels a little different. She seems to be acting much different towards me. I think she realizes what a "putz" (her word) she's been.
Thanks to all who are with me during this awful time I really appreciate the help and support.
Hopefully my posts going forward will be more encouraging.
One thing that concerns me is thst she replied to Mr & Mrs RB about how sorry she was, and basically threw herself on their mercy. I wish she'd let me look at the email before she sent it. RB needs to own up to his part of this and she should have said something to that effect. I guess we cant have everything go exactly the way we'd like it to. For now I'll just take that NC seems to have been reinforced, and WW seems to want to start on Withdrawal / Recovery.
Any thoughts?

TTH,
This is a wonderful idea to help her realize the deep connection and commitment you have for each other. I was thinking about this and the thought of a new symbol came to mind. Does she have a cross? Maybe a necklace given to her from you symbolizing her relationship with you and God? Just a thought....

Trytoo,

""RB needs to own up to his part of this and she should have said something to that effect. I guess we cant have everything go exactly the way we'd like it to""

You must realize that the rat bass boat was doing some high speed tap dancing and fast talking to save his a$$ after the phone call. I am sure he told his wife what a crazy loon your wife is and how he didn't want to let her know about your crazy wife's continual stalking of him, thinking he could take care of it himself. But then when HER CRAZY MOTHER called, well gosh, that just took the cake.

The low life's actions will become more and more apparent to your wife as she thinks about this more and more.

Plus OMW may be thinking about it more too, and maybe will come to her own realization.

Anyway, be strong and be there for your wife, and don't worry about RB. That karma bus has a way of backing up and over those that deserve it.

IMHO

kirk