OK, everyone thinks I should lose the counselors. Me too. I would like to use the Harleys for MC. The issue is that WW wants to continue IC to work on her things. I support this, and would like to find a "pro marriage" counselor for her to do this with.
My question for all of you who recommend finding a PMC is how do I do this? How do I screen them to find out what their philosophy is? Are there specific questions I should ask?
Could use a little help with this.
Thanks.

Wow, what a turn of events! God bless your MIL for her tenacity! How many would do the same?

The next few weeks will be a rollercoaster, I think (speaking from my experience) and the fact that you are drained is kinda scarey. You will see a combo of the alien and your W as she tried to accept how much she DIDN'T mean to him. It is a hard fantasy-world-to-reality crash. When the alien is around, don't stay around and drag through R talks and A talks, unless it is to listen while she processes. It may be hard for you to hear much of what is said, though, as emotionally raw as you are right now (understandably). Try to focus on the positive direction you can move to from here, and try to ignore the alien when it rears its ugly head. Otherwise you may have some very angry outbursts on both sides, which will not help anything. Remember, not only will she be dealing with her new-found reality, she is going to feel overwhelmed with guilt...not worthy of you, etc which may come out in anger towards you at times. It'll be hard for her to realize she is NOT nearly as "cool" as she thought she was.

Like I said, try to focus on the positive...fill her love bank...let her fill yours to whatever means she is capable. I wouldn't have many expectations over the next few weeks, though, as she goes thorugh WD. It's a tough time. Try to be understanding and gentle...there will be much TRUE remorse on her part, but probably not till a little later. She will go through bouts of it now, but later it will be much more sincere...does that make sense? Right now she will be in "I cannot believe he is still here after all I've done" which is great, but humbling. Humility can be a hard pill to swallow, as I am still working on it all day every day (and I've been through WD for months and coming out of the fog for weeks). As I was told by Mrs. W, the fog comes off in layers, not all at once. But you have had a HUGE push forward. I would be sure to do something really special for MIL when you can. She has had a huge hand in slapping some sense into your WW. (sorry for the pun, man, thought you might like it)!

Good luck and put on your helmet and armor for the next few weeks. Vent to us here and keep us updated! Try to get her on here if you can...I know it helped me tremendously. I would wait till WD is over, though...

Hang in there!!!!!

Hey gang.
Haven't been posting for a few days. Been a little under the weather, and haven't really felt up to it.
Anyway, we continue to move along. I'm pretty sure NC has been maintained since the nuclear weekend email fest two weeks ago.
I have concerns though. The nature of WW's email response to OMW leaves me thinking that she still is quite fog bound. I'm concerned that her opinion of OM has not really been damaged, and I'm afraid that without her thinking he's the RB that he truly is, she may never come to grips with her behavior (and his) being wrong.
The more I think about all that she's put me through the angrier I get. At times I'm just utterly disgusted with her, and her inability to show remorse or make efforts to "compensate" or even recognize her despicable behavior. I know I may be hoping for this type of response from her prematurely, but it's damn difficult to come to grips with this. She does tell me she lovesme, we'll get through this etc. But I have become cold to her repeated excuses and justifications. She told me yesterday that she "doesn't love him". Whoopie! What do you want, a f-ing cookie?
I know this will take time. I know it's a roller coaster. But is there any way to get her to at least start to address my EN's that remain unmet?
I find it incredibly frustrating that the BS has to continue to give so much, while the WS gets to seemingly control the situation and pace of recovery attempt.
I don't think WW will ever admit that her "friendship" w/RB was wrong. She essentially validated RB/RBW contention that nothing they did was wrong, and I'm the crazy one.
As upset as she seemd to be at RB in the immediate aftermath of being thrown under the bus by RB to save his own *ss, with time she seemes to have softened and I believe would still love to be his "friend"...
Can anyone shed some light on what I'm going through right now?
Is there anyone (Mrs. W?) who could possibly offer WW some insight in to how despicible she has been, and how her BS (me) deserves to be coddled a bit as well.
Will she ever recognize that I am the one who is truly hurt here, and make some effort to console and EARN back my trust?
This seems like such a long uncertain road.
I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto...
There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like...

I hear you Try...It is not fair at all...But if you become cold to her, it will only play into her rationalizations and justifications...The better you are to her, the faster her remorse will come...It takes a lot of time to "get it" for a wayward...it is most definitely a marathon and not a sprint...I just remember that it was Mr. W's continued sweet treatment of me, combined with reading the forums here as well as Dr. Harley's books that finally got through to me...It was then that I became awed by Mr. W...so remorseful about what I put him through...and then I was able to read his journal from the time of the affair...talk about a wake up call for me...there are still times now that I tell Mr. W how intensely sorry that I am...and there are actions that back that up as well-his security in our marriage is of the utmost importance to me...I am 100% transparent with him...I look for ways to show him how important he is to me...It will come Try, just not overnight...Stay the course...

When I have spoken with your wife, I've made sure to tell her that OM is NO PRIZE...that he does NOT respect her as he gladly lead her down the path to adultery...that he had no problem lying to both her and his own wife...and we talked about the addiction and her need to tell him off and how that even doing that would only feed her addiction-be the contact negative or positive, it is still nothing more than a "fix"...how it is best for her to get to a place of indifference rather than hatred-hatred keeps him relevant in both of your lives...indiffence is the goal...NC is how that is reached...

How about calling Steve Harley for guidance? Money VERY well spent I can assure you...

Mrs. W

Thanks, Mrs. W.
Have you discussed anything with WW regarding the remorse you felt toward Mr. W? How you were unable to really recognize that what he was doing was in your best interests and relate that to what I'm doing? I don't want to punish her with this as we (hopefully) move forward, but I want her to realize that she has a huge part to play in my recovery. I think she still only thinks of herself.
I know this is going to take some time, but I'm just not sure how this should feel right now.
It's a huge leap of faith to hope that WW will someday "wake up" and come to a more whole realization of what she has done (bad) and what I've tried to do (good).
I cant bear the thought of having to live forever in this state of uncertainty.
I so want to be able to trust her again, but that's entirely up to her effort... I think.

Hmmm...Trying to remember, but I don't think we got to the remorse talk...She wasn't ready for that yet Try...Baby steps...Your boundary will eventually have to be that you refuse to be in a loveless marriage, but really she hasn't even made it through withdrawal yet...Hard as it is, you will have to be patient...The withdrawal phase is hellish...I remember crying to Mr. W about my break up-GAG-How crazy and sick is that? And bless his heart, he was there for me...listened to enormous loads of crap...held me and let me cry on his shoulder...it makes me shudder with embarrassment and empathy for him to think about...It also makes me know what an incredible, strong and secure man that he is...what grace he has shown me...how much he loves me, and I him...But as I've said, Try, this takes TIME...Recovery is a PROCESS and NOT an EVENT...

You are right that she will have to EARN your trust...You would be a fool to trust her right now...You must continue to INSPECT what you EXPECT...

I really, really, really wish that you would call Steve Harley...$185 is very little to spend on your own peace of mind and marriage, isn't it?

Mrs. W

Ya think I should do this solo?

I would call to make the appointment and see what they think...It certainly couldn't hurt you to have a solo session...Of course Steve is GREAT at talking to WSs too...

Mrs. W

Try...I know you are hurting. You have every right. You have been devasted by her actions. I know this may be difficult to hear, but I was in the place that your WW is in right now for months b4 I finally got it. The more DH tried to educate me, the more he told me the things I am reading in your post (she needs to be the one doing the work, she doesn't feel enough remorse, etc) the more I viewed it as him rubbing my face in it. I am NOT saying that's what you are doing, and not what he was doing-I know better now. Just trying to give you some insight into the wayward mind, I guess. I'm telling you that's how I felt at the place you are in right now. I was so darn frustrated b/c I felt I WAS doing a lot, that I was trying to do all the right things, say all the right things, etc. But waywards are the most selfish people. That does not go away over night. Keep reminding yourself what you are trying to achieve here. Try to ease up on the pressure of fixing things with the R just yet. You are soooo early in recovery, and now that she is just beginning to come around, you want immediate results. But as much as you deserve that, it isn't gonna happen that way. I don't (IMO) think you should focus on what she may or may not be feeling about this guy. You have exposed to OMS and she is handling things on her end. That part of it is over. How your WW feels about him now versus how she will feel about him in, say, six months or a year will change dramatically if you stay the course. This isn't instant gratification time. Don't expect her to fall all over you and beg your forgiveness (although she may sporatically as the fog clears).

Remember, you cannot "get it through her head" you cannot "make her see" you cannot "make her understand." And you cannot understand yourself why it happened. She will not be able to explain. These are not questions that can be answered right now. But if you want to save your marriage, and (here's the important part) YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT PATH, let go of the anger as much as you can for now. I have been there, Try! We were just there a month ago!!!

You are in the third quarter of the football game. You have finally tied the score. Now it's time to square your shoulders, put a few more points on the board, and finish strong!

Thanks for the encouraging words, all.
We have MC today, and I think I'll just try to stay quiet as much as possible, and only be positive.
I think I understand about how she could perceive my efforts at rebuilding as "rubbing it in her face". It's certainly not what I'm trying to do, but if thats how she might view it, I should try to refrain. I think she is really making an effort, but the results and signs I wish to see may be some time off. I wish it could happen sooner, but I guess I wish a lot of things were different...
Again, I'm wondering how to go about finding a more Pro-Marriage counselor. I think WW would view changing again as "controlling", and may pull the plug. I guess I'm not sure if no counseling is better than lame counseling.
Any thoughts on when I can start being more open with WW about what I expect or need from her? Is there some sort of sign to look for?
I really want to make this work. I know deep down she loves me and doesn't want to hurt me. I have really grave concerns about the nature of our relationship going forward. If I'll be able to trust her again. If she's still succeptable or open to getting involved with someone else. If she really is wise enough to recognize if there's risk of another affair if the situation comes up again.
Men are dogs and she's hot. I think it would be really easy for someone else to rope her in without her realizing what it is. Especially since she seems to be so interested in "flirting" and flaunting herself.
I did tell her recently (indirectly) that women who act like tramps tend to attract men who like tramps. and that I'm not the type of guy who was ever interested in that type of woman.
I told her that she's not that shallow, and much of what I fell in love with in her were her other more important qualities. Her intellect, sense of humour, her caring nature. (though her looks certainly were and still are remarkable!)
I'm helping her with some college entrance stuff as she's decided it's finally time to go back to school to get her radiology degree. I am excited for her and told her that doing that might really give her a boost. That she might feel really good about herself through such a thing, and I totally support her doing so.

God I hope she can recover her self esteem so we can be whole again.
Any thoughts on the counselor thing?

You cannot worry about what she may perceive as oontrolling right now. She is viewing everything through distorted lenses. I sat right where she is for months b4 I finally "got it." It is different for different people (what brings on the "epiphone") but as long as you know what you are doing is in keeping with the MB principles, keep moving forward. When she finally does give up her justifications completely, she'll change that behavior voluntarily and you will (hopefully) feel much more secure in your trust of her. In fact, you'll see a major change in her and she will offer to do things that you have had to ask for up till this point. She will do them out of respect and love, and because she will realize how vulnerable she is (and we all are), and won't question your motives.

Concerning the counselors...ask her if she would rather keep the current IC or MC, and make sure she knows you do not think her current IC will help you as a couple if that's what she wants. That way she feels she has a choice and that you are not controlling her. Then tell her you can only afford to keep one of them, b/c you are going to schedule the Harley's twice a month as your MC. You feel they will give you the best chance at making this a happy marriage and for you to BOTH feel completely in love with each other again, which is what you both want. Tell her your best case scenario would be for her to go to a different IC, and use the Harley's for MC. But, of course, leave the final decision up to her (for now) about the choice btwn quitting the current IC/MC.

We briefly discussed the MC/IC thing today. I think we both feel that our current MC is not really doing much for us.
From my perspective she tends to knock me down and tries to remain neutral which is at best, I think, not really addressing the issue of the A as it needs to be.
From WW's perspective, we just deiscuss the same things we've already talked about, and it's harder for her to get over / past OM if we keep re-hashing the same stuff.
I tend to agree with WW on this point. If we hope to get through WD, it might make sense to leave it alone for a while. We will have opportunity to discuss what we need to once we (hopefully) hit the recovery stage.
I told her that if she wants to continue with her IC that I support that, and she knows I would prefer that she see someone different. However, as she seems to be more genuinely committed to NC this time, perhaps she will get some value from IC.
I suggested basically the same thing that you suggested LALA, in her seeing her IC and us using Harley for MC.
I think I may do an individual session as she doesn't seem to want to do MC with them at this point. It may be more effective for me to leave the MC thing alone for a while, and once she's further along with WD we can do it.
At least we can get out of the enabling, everything must be zero sum, psycho babble MC situation.
I ask again, is no counseling (at least temporarily) better than bad counseling?
One thing that did get across to WW today, which she and MC agreed with (whew!) was that any time that she contacts RB or RBW that it's a concious intentional attack on me and our marriage. She does seem to be understanding a bit more that she is the guilty party in this. At last, a glimmer of accountability for her actions?... I hope so...
She was definitely looking and feeling much better when we entered MC today than when we came out.
I think at this point, MC is simply preventing her from getting past some things that she must for us to get to the next step. Recovery. I want whatever will get her there the fastest.
Whaddya think?

IMO...YES! Why doesn't she want to talk to the Harleys? If I had to guess, it's b/c she realizes that they are the ones who are going to be the most successful at defeating the alien. It's amazing how hard we cling to that thing! It's also amazing how much better I feel now that it's gone. But in that mindframe it feels like letting it go=defeat, as dumb as that sounds.

YES!!!

Mr. W and I discussed your situation a little over lunch...Careful not to miss the fact that during all this you have PRIME opportunities to Plan A...Lots of time to meet her EN for conversation if that is one of her top needs...Meet her EN for admiration each time that she does do something that you like-positive reinforcement-careful not to be patronizing though...

I just remember Mr. W saying things to me like that he understood how the affair happened...How that it could just as easily have been him-Man, I can't tell you how much I appreciated knowing that he didn't think that I was a total monster-that he was able to offer me empathy...He lead that part of recovery...BECAUSE he did that I was able to step back and see how much my actions hurt him and then I was able to offer him empathy...Recovery works in tandem...Pride has to be left at the door...A humble heart is what it takes...No score keeping...(and I do understand how hard that is)...You concentrate on what it will take to fall in love with each other...the remorse will follow that...

Mr. W got babysitters constantly during this time...We went out and did lots of fun stuff...Sometimes he would stay home from work and we would go to lunch and a movie (Comedies were GREAT! We saw Wedding Crashers and 40 Year Old Virgin-lol) The focus was on having FUN in the now...NOT on what was wrong with the relationship and how to fix it...We were fixing it by having fun together...In love feelings are created by doing recreational fun things together...

Mrs. W

Something that has helped me greatly is finally getting that FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS...That is a biggie...

Mrs. W

BIG- "ME, TOO" ON THAT ONE!!!!

Well, I guess I just persevere, try to continue improving my Plan A actions, and hope her light bulb goes off at some point (hopefully soon). We're now at 1 week for latest attempt at NC, and she does seem to be more genuinely interested in maintaining it this time, however I wonder if she would feel the same way if RBW hadn't sent the "stay away from my darling RB" email. Oh well. I was really hoping that WW would come to her own conclusion that RB was not worth her time, but I guess I'll just take what I've got and move on.
I think we'll lay off the MC for the time being. I'll ask her if she wants to continue with IC even though it seems IC is supporting the Wayward fog perspective on this. I guess if that's what she's hearing from WW it's all she has to work with... It's too bad that IC doesn't seem to have a clue about the dynamics involved in an A, and could provide some helpful advice rather than enabling and further justifying WW's need for "independence". What an out of touch ninny...
Nonetheless, I'll try to keep up the good, loving supportive husband role for now, and hope for the best.
I think I will do an IC session with Dr. H, and hopefully if/ when WW gets through WD she will do an MC session with the same.
I think, to answer your question, WW doesn't want to do Dr. H counseling as she sees it as "my idea" for fixing our R, and she seems to want to draw the line in the sand on some things. Childish, yes, but that's where she seems to be right now.
God I hope she comes to the right conclusion about all this and comes back to her senses.
I really am concerned that her state of mind gets back to reality so that risk of A's doesn't live on forever...

TTH,

Looks like you're getting somewhere...hang in there man.

Have a look at the following, it could have been writen for us. Be Still

Thanks, TMTS.
I'm hangin'

You can get to all that rebuilding the R stuff later. Read the thread TMTS gave you-it's a good one.

For now, keep snooping, keep up Plan A and do some stuff for yourself! Start courting her again and having some fun. You have been through some rough times over the past few months and I'm sure you could both use a break from it! What are some things you did back when you were first falling in love? Get some babysitting and party with her for a while. Give your brain a rest from all this heartbreak...I think you are on the right path now, it just has to get much more narrow for her from here.

Hang in there!!!!!