I must say, the HO-HO-HO -riffic makes me giggle every time I see it. I mean, its not funny at all that NC was broken, it is terrible... but the HO-HO-HO riffic is just a funny way of saying it...

Hope things are going better for you... fog can be lifted...

RIM

Thanks, RIM.
I've always found humour to be my easiest coping mechanism. I think if I didn't find a way to laugh (even at myself) through this turmoil, that I might do something drastic. Thank god for a sense of humour...
I hope her fog lifts. I think I'm seeing glimpses of clarity in her, but that may just be my overly optomistic side showing.
My real hope is that once (god willing) her fog lifts, that her entire perspective on this and the reasons for it happening, and her own contributions to it will finally change, and she'll make some changes in her behavior that will make a repeat performance unlikely at the least and hopefully impossible.
The kind thoughts and words of wisdom from you all have been nothing short of life changing for me. Perhaps with a true change of heart from WW, I will be able to share what I'm learning here with her in a productive positive way...
Thanks again to all.
I know I'm not nearly out of the woods yet, but my hope and belief that our M can and WILL be better than ever remains...
Boy, it sure takes quite an effort, almost continually, to keep the bad stuff down for the sake of showing the good stuff to WW. I know I won't regret the effort if it all works out.

DING DING DING DING DING...We have a winner!

This is so key right now. (I'm impressed BTW,LaLa)

The secret to Dr Harley's method of marital recovery is that his focus is on rebuilding the love between H & W. That is what brought you together and that is what will keep you together and make repeat affairs less likely.

To do that you have to fill each other's Love Bank. To fill each other's LB$ you...Meet ENs, avoid Love Busters...Follow POJA, PORH, UA etc. UA, (Undivided Attention) is the key to it all. Spend at least 15 hours per week doing fun stuff. Don't talk about the relationship or the affair or do communications exercises, just have fun!

When you spend time doing recreational stuff, your need for RC (recreational companionship) is met, you talk to her meeting her need for conversation, as you become more comfortable, openness and honesty are met along with little touches (affection) as the day goes on and by the end of the night she and you are both ready for SF. You fall asleep together, locked in an embrace both happy, fulfilled and satisfied and life is good.

Then, when the scheduled time to discuss relationship problems comes along, perhaps with the MC present, neither of you is in withdrawal or conflict, you're both in a state of intimacy and you can both allow real negotiation to take place since your giver is willing because your taker has been satisfied.

If you try to force the recovery work, you will fail because it is all work that depletes the LB$ and neither of you is willing to negotiate freely because your giver is on sabbatical and your taker is running the show...because your love for each other has drained away.

Fill her love bank. Let her fill yours. You will even discover that some of the huge problems are minor when you are in love with each other again and some may vanish in wisps of vapor...

Mark

THANK YOU, MARK!! That means so much to me.

Yes, Thanks Mark.
I sure hope this works out. I still have incredible hurt and anger at WW right now. I am, however willing to supress that in the spirit of re-establishing a chance for re-love... (I think I just made that up.)
I really hope that trust can one day be back in our M. Living without it is miserable.
So I soldier on... Nice to know I've got some allies.

TTH,

If you haven't read this yet, get to it...

Ark's Thread on Plan A

Mark

I'm having a really hard time dealing with WW's pissy attitude and passive aggressive comments.
These threads reviewing / debating whether happiness can ever really be restored are not helping. Bob Pure's "calling all" is somewhat disheartening as well.
Is it better for me to simply walk away without responding to WW's jabs, or do reverse babble, or tell her it's not appreciated?
I fear that she will never truly "get over" RB in spite of his repeatedly showing low character. It feels like the only reason that she might try harder to maintain NC is that it's been "blown out of proportion" now that MIL and RBW are in the loop, not that she realized she's acting like an a**h*le.
In all the time I've known her she would not have lied even to a stranger, now she treats me like an enemy and for some reason harbors deep resentment towards me.
Is it possible that over the course of her A that the lies and deceit became so regular that they are actually habitual at this point? Can this be reversed?
I fear that even if she gets through WD, that she will never recognize or accept the truly despicable nature of what she's done, and will not ever try to compensate or do what she needs to do for ME to trust her again. Will there always be fog?
The thought of her always having unrequited feelings for RB makes me sick, and the thought of living the rest of my life with her, knowing this is F-ing depressing.
I am having nightly dreams(nightmares) often several a night involving WW and RB, WW and other guys, A type actions, etc. I awake feeling angry and hurt and have a hard time falling back to sleep. Will this sh*t end?
I'm having real difficulty with all of this right now. I can definitely see how supressing these feelings for the sake of showing love to WW could become debilitating.
GOD THIS SUCKS!
I hope this doesn't have to go on for much longer.
I want my Love and my Bride to return.

Unfortunately, it will not end IMO until her viewpoint changes. You need to stop listening to her...stop trying to change her...stop wondering if/when she'll ever be over him, etc. These are things you cannot control. And the more you focus on things that are out of your control, the faster you will spiral downwards.

Yes, it sucks. I will never truly understand how W2S hung in there with me through all of my bull. Did you know that 85% of these cases must have a Plan B? Only 15% of them end up working out after Plan A. If your love bank is this low, it may be nearing that time. I would put in a stellar Plan A for a week or 2 (even if you are gritting your teeth the whole time on the inside...and PLEASE go out and have some fun with her for BOTH your sakes), and then BAM. DARK. Get the Harley's on the phone first to walk you through it.

Your anger is growing, Try. Yes, her lies and deceit can be changed into true remorse and honest love without resentment. But she has to get there on her own. You can only control what YOU do. You are in charge of YOU, and that includes when you've had enough.

She is still very early in withdrawl and she is going to need you...but not begrudgingly or angrily. You have to tune her out right now...during WD, it's best sometimes to just let the WS alone (while watching them closely, of course) and go about your business. You are so much like W2S, though. This was all impossible for him to just push aside. He had nightmares, and thought about it constantly. He said it was literally "debilitating." For the analytical thinker, I cannot even imagine. And I'm sorry, Try. Sorrier than you'll ever know!

So all I can really do is be "Super Me", and hope that somehow she will eventually pull her head out of her *ss, before I go insane?

Where's that phonebooth again?...

NOT "eventually," NO. And preferrably LONG b4 you go insane. Noone here can decide that part for you, Try. There are recommendations for the length of any Plan A. For women it is as short as six weeks. For men- up to six months, I believe. But these are only recommendations, Try...only you can decide.

Let's look at what we've got...

1. She has shown a willingess to listen to people here (Mr/Mrs. W).
2. She has shown some true remorse along the way, albeit sporatically.
3. She is trying to maintain NC, although only for a short time now (so WD is just starting)...

What else can we add here? Baby steps to be sure, but still steps.

Are you just having a bad day, or are you really feeling drained...? Did you ask her out like I suggested?

I think I was having a bad day. Sometimes something will trigger negative thoughts, and it's kind of hard to think happy. I too am pretty analytical, so it's easy for me to go over and over things in my mind which tends in the case of WW's A, to sort of spiral down in to funkville. I am also really drained emotionally from the months of turmoil.
She was feeling really down last night and let me know that. Apparently one of her "work" friends wanted her to meet for drinks after friend got out of work. WW called me to see what I thought. I told her that I had no problem with her meeting F for a drink as long as RB wasn't going to be there. I told her that it was up to her if she wanted to go or not, but she knows how I feel about RB. She seemed kind of stuck about how much detail to share with F regarding RB, and NC, and I told her that unfortunately that's the reality of the situation. I also said that it would be safe to assume that RB and F (as well as other former co-workers) have talked about their situation. That she did share some information a couple of months ago with F, and that RB and F still work together frequently, and to assume that they're talking about this situation.
She later sent a text saying that she wasn't going. it was then that she let me know that she felt really down. I told her that I would come home. Left work early and went home to comfort her. When I got home she was crying, so I just held her and told her that she was going to be ok. I didn't ask why she felt bad. Just hugged and comforted her. I also took over kid duties for the night so she could rest.
I don't know what convinced her not to go. If she talked to F and found out something that RB said, or more likely, she didn't know how to ask F if RB was going without having to explain anything, thus AVOIDING CONFLICT, and was feeling bad about that. I guess at the least, the fact that she's unhappy might mean that so far, NC is still in effect.
It sucks that there's anything good about her feeling bad. It tears me up inside when she's unhappy which makes it really difficult because she's allowing me to be the reason she's upset by demonizing me to justify her affair. But it was her choice to go down this road, and these are some of the consequences of her actions.
I do hope she can get back to reality, and be happy again. With me...

Try,

I'm LaLa's DH W2S. I have been following your sitch from the very beginning and I thought I would share some thoughts with you about your recent posts. I know exactly what you are talking about because I have experienced much of the same thoughts. I too suffered from nightmares, flashbacks and visions for a long time. They still get me every now and then but as time goes by and my DW has showed remorse and empathy toward my feelings they have lessened quite a bit.

Being a BS is difficult enough, but to experience these feelings as an analytical problem solver can become overwhelming. For the bettter part of 16 months I slept less than 5 hours a night for fear of having nightmares and not being able to turn off the thoughts in my head. I was completely obssessed with trying to solve the problem. The answer I eventually came to was that this isn't a problem you can solve. The outcome is out of your control. All you can do is continue with Plan A in hopes that your WW will eventually come to realize the pain her actions have caused you. There is nothing you can do to force this to happen. It is entirely up to her. You continue doing this until you reach a point where it is starting to affect your feelings for her. At that time, then you have to decide for yourself if you can live with what you have gotten out of recovery or if a more drastic approach is warranted.

I also know exactly what you mean about fearing your WW will never let go of feelings for RB. It's typical WS behavior. During my DW's A, their whole relationship was presented to me as a working friendship. I pretty much knew of everthing that was going on except for the dirty details. This OM was a real [censored]. He pulled all kinds of stunts that displayed a total lack of respect for my DW. I couldn't understand why she was putting up with the treatment she was getting. Then, once my DW confessed to me, it amplified how I felt by like a million. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why she was clinging to her feelings for POS OM when it was so apparent that he had done absolutely nothing to deserve it. The answer is that it is part of a WS's way of coping with the guilt they feel. They have to beleive that it was real an not just some fantasy because if they admit to themselves that it was a fantasy then they have to face the reality that they risked losing everything that was important to them for something that's not real.

The last thing I wanted to point out was your mention of Bob_Pure's "calling all" thread. At first glance, I can see what you mean how depressing that thread is for a BS trying to recover their M. The thing about this site is that it can be a Godsend when you are looking for answers to specific feelings, but in threads like the one you mentioned you have to remember the poster's situation that led them to their conclusions. I know most of the back stories of the posters in that thread and most suffered through long term double life type As. So it's reasonable to see why they have the feelings they do. In other words, be sure to keep your situation in perspective when comparing to other peoples posts on this board. I think there are levels of betrayal. In your case, your DW had a short lived EA, but in Bob's case his WW had a long term EA/PA complete with getaway weekends with OM. It's no wonder he's not completely satisfied with their recovery. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to minimize the feelings you are experiencing, but there is a big difference. See what I mean?

I have to agree with LaLa though. You have seen some real progress as of late. To me, it looks like the beginning of your DW accepting responsibility for her actions. It's slow progress, but progress none the less. Hope all this helps you put things back into perspective. It can get better. Just hang in there!

Want2Stay

P.S. Your posts are absolutely hilarious! I love your sense of humor.

Thanks W2S.
That does really help. I do sometimes think about the fact that the A could have been worse. I am usually a "glass is half full" type of person, and I know things could be worse.
It does still hurt however when I think of the lies and complete concious intentional betrayal of my trust and love for her.
Though their actions together may not have been as severe as many PA's, the lies and deceit to cover it up hurt just the same. Sometimes I wonder (how sick is this) if a ONS without any emotional attachment might be easier to get over... I don't know.
Anyway, I do appreciate everyone's concern and all of the helpful comments. Knowing that many of you have recovered and built thriving happy marriages post A is a real source of strength and hope for me. Thank you.
I'm trying to arrange a sitter for tonight so I can surprise her with a night out. Maybe a movie and drinks...

Hanging in there.

Hey Try! You did a fantastic job last night!!! Talk about your love bank deposits! Be careful, though, not to overthink. Isn't it possible she just made the right decision based on how you feel about NC? It probably had nothing to do with conflict avoidance! Sounds like she is coming out of it and really going through WD. But she is coming to you for comfort, and you are giving it to her! There's really no point in trying to figure out why she didn't go. I tend to believe it was b/c she loves you and wanted to do the right thing this time. Very, very positive step. And then instead of withdrawing even futher, she came to you for help/comfort. Fantastic! Just great!

Thanks for the vote of confidence LaLa.
I think you're right about her motives. I don't think she did get into any details last night with F. I'm going to assume she didn't go for the very reason you suggested. That she loves me and is realizing that her actions have created this dificult situation for her, and she has to live with the consequenses. Also I'm going to assume that she didn't want to hurt me. Just trying to be positive here.
So I got a sitter, and surprised her by texting that we're going on a date tonight.
We exchanged a couple more light text's then she called and said that she was really looking forward to going out on a date with me tonight. So that's what I've got going on right now. I'll spend the night trying to be funny and romantic, and NO RELATIONSHIP TALK!!
I do truly love her with all of my heart, and when we have these (too infrequent) close moments, it reminds me of the REAL person I'm married to, why it's worth fighting for, and how hopeful I am that it can work out in the long run.
I know I'm not to get too high or too low through this process, but I'm going to enjoy the high when it presents itself. Hopefully they will start appering with more duration and regularity!
and yes, in general I do tend to over-analyze things sometimes which means I may make things harder on myself at times.
Did I mention that I find my bride very hot and I am in love?
Thanks again for the kind and supportive words.

Keep it up TTH!!! You're doing GRRRREEEAT!! (OK, so I had to bust out some Tony the Tiger there... maybe to go with the superman references above...I guess Tony the Tiger and Superman don't really have that much in common... hmmm... now I'm just hungry for frosted flakes... )

Recovery is a process, not an event. I keep telling myself that, and I think you need to keep that in mind too. It is unlikely that this is going to happen in a "lightbulb" fashion. It is more likely to be slowly. So, don't get discouraged if it isn't "lightbulb". She's making steps. Encourage those, without expectations. Just because you've seen some progress doesn't mean you get to have expectations yet! (I know, hard, it is hard for me too-- probably the hardest part!). Work on yourself-- and hope that she keeps working on herself (and encourage that, without pushing).

RIM

Welcome, buddy!

NOW GO HAVE A FUN NIGHT, DAMMIT (HAHAHAHA)!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, RIM.
I am aware that this is a process not an event, unless you can consider the last 5 long unbearable months of my life an "event".
I just wanted to make the point that even knowing that this is a roller coaster ride, I might as well enjoy the high points when I can. Maybe it will help to have a more recent reminder of good times when the inevitable low points rear their ugly head.
Again, not too high, not too low.
Not having any expectations makes the good points seem much better.
Still learning, still trying, still hoping...

Put some cologne on, try not to speak much and you should be fine!

:P