TG,

Since things haven't changed much since I last posted to you I thought I would respond to your last post to me.

You said
Ok first I am picking on you not from a sense of hurt, but from a sense that you need to change your perspective on somethings. I do hope you can gain some insight, even if you don't agree with me. My goal is try and encourage you to think about this differently with a new perspective.

You said
There is a lot more you can do, and I hope that I and others can show you or offer you some ideas. I will expand on this in a moment.


In my opinion this is a very interesting set of statements. You do in fact have a plan or at least the beginnings of a plan. Have you discussed this with your H, and asked him if he had some ideas for you??

I would also suggest that using your "feelings" as a guide is not a good idea. Use your vows as a guide, your moral code as a guide, your honor as a guide, but not your "feelings". Feelings betray people, they change including the "feeling of being in love". You vowed to love your H, not feel in love with him. Love in this situation is a verb, an action, that you PROMISED to do. Hence you control it.

You stated you "turned your feelings off, and then used the hurt you were "feeling" to justify your affair. See why I am saying don't go with feelings??

You closed by saying
Well, do you think he is telling you the truth?? I suspect he might be. The aftermath of many affairs is that the BS hates themselves for: trying to save the marriage, preceived failures on their part, and mistakes that they truly did make. One would think the WS would have staked out this territory, but it is often the BS that does.

Let's consider this for a moment.

For most men their marriage is a point of pride, although you might not tell it from how they treat it. So when you had the affair, you basically said: "he doesn't cut it with me in bed." Now you probably didn't say this and you might not have felt it, but us guys interpret the decision to have an affair as a physical decision as well as an emotional one. So you have made him question his manhood.

Next, you realize that a REAL man would never be such a "soft touch" as to allow a woman that had cheated on him back into his house and life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Of course real men do this all of the time, but it is hard to admit that we are not living up to our own image of a "real man". So he is staying for the kids, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don't you believe it. He is staying for you, he just is having a hard time reconcilling his previous image of himself with what has happened and the fact that he accepted you back. Many people male and female have said "if he/she cheats I am out of here." Harley has found that is not the case, but the popular image and statements are contrary to the data.

So if he is questioning his manhood, what is he to do? He wants to stay with you. He wants to love you. He wants to put you back up on a pedestal where most of us guys like our W's to be. But, he cannot. If he admits he wants to stay with and still really loves you, in his mind he is a wimp. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Now, if what I am saying has any validity, then another possible leap of logic would say that he will not "willingly" work on the marriage at least not for awhile yet. It provides him some salvation from his self-image issues, and it provides him some control which many BS's desprately need to feel.

Further, if what I have said has any validity, then it seems to me you have many things you can and should be doing.

One, if you think I am right, he is here to stay, BUT he needs a few things. Probably he needs his self-image buffed up a bit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He needs to avoid "working on the marriage" as you put, but needs to feel in control.

So how to "buff" up that image. Perhaps he needs to hear you bragging to someone else about something he does well. Or even how much you love him. Perhaps he needs to hear you talk to his/your family about how impressed you are with his strength and love. Perhaps he needs to see you get on an even keel and start to conduct your life with love and GRACE. I like the word GRACE, because it connotes so many positive things and actions. As you smile, as you become comfortable in your own skin, as you remove the pressure he feels, he will start to see.

Trigirls, this is a process NOT a fix. It is you becoming much steadier emotionally. Acting with love toward him and your family. It is you seeing that his actions are not aligning with his words. He is staying because he WANTS to. As you become a more comfortable companion to him, he will want to stay more. And finally as you do these things you will see relationships in a different way, thus even if he did decide to leave you know you would survive.

Someone once asked on a thread "what would you do if you did not fear?" And I would like to ask you the same thing. How would YOU conduct your marriage if you did not fear he was going to decide to leave? Would you go back to the old status quo, or would you act with more confidence that you can make this a good marriage.

Trigirls you can only do what you can do, but you should do it with grace and with an understanding that alot of this is "all about him." THink about all of this carefully and then go read about DJ's and the four rules for a good marriage, and I think you will start to see things a bit differently.

God Bless,

JL

TG,

JL's post is full of valuable information and insight.



I don't think I'm communicating very clearly.

Yes, I understand why someone would want kudos. Yes, I do understand why you want your EN's met.

And I do not AT ALL think that you should keep your Taker in check. Doing that would likely only cause YOU to feel resentful.

What I am suggesting is not that what you want is unreasonable or invalid, but that your methods are NOT conducive to accomplishing what you are trying to accomplish.

JL, Thank you so much for your post!


I have, he wants me to "fill" my life with more than just him, and Im working on that. It is scary and uncomfortable for me to step out of my comfort zone, and add more to my life. Im doing it because he has asked me to and I know its something I need to do for myself as well as my recovery.


I do see why...I will work to think/act on this and see if it helps.



Yikes! That pedestal of his is quite high. I think anyone would have a hard time staying up there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I absolutely think you are right!


Grace is a great word! I have come a long way, you shouldve seen me before,...ugly!!!! I still have more grace to master, I know.

No fear? I am who I am because of fear...I feel it has controlled my whole life. Im learning to move past it but it has been a struggle in itself. Life would be good with much less fear.

Trigirls,

I had to pop in to give you a high five!!!!

Keep up the good work, you show a true willingness to make this marriage succeed and by the grace of God it will!!

I had to chuckle when you thought Just Learning must have some past hurt feelings... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am a fully recoverd BS and you guys are walking in our footsteps without a doubt!!! JL has never been in our shoes but I thank God for his willingness to spend time helping folks like us when things seem so hopeless. He played a big roll in saving my marriage when he helped me 7 years ago and not to scare you but, you still have a ways to go. It took me close to 4 years to fully recover and my wife is now beaming at the top of the pedestal that I place her on. (I posted a letter on the recovery board; please check it out, titled "what I've learned”)

I would suggest that you print out JL's last post and reread it from time to time because he hit the nail right on the head.

It’s true, it is a pride thing.

I remember when I was in your husbands place. It was so painful when the thoughts of the A popped into my head that it would so easily highjack all the progress that was being made. This is one of the unfortunate consequences of the A. It almost seemed easier to block the whole marriage just to try to protect myself from the pain of the broken pride I used to have. Time and hard work DID prevail!!!

Things that my WS did that helped big time...

She knew when triggers of her A would hit me; I guess it was written all over my face. She would look me straight in the eye and with the utmost sincerity tell me that "SHE WOULD NEVER DO WHAT SHE DID EVER AGAIN..." and then hold my head with tears in her eyes saying that she loves me so much and ONLY me.

Oh what a relief to hear those heart felt words and she had to do that several times over the years when ever some stupid reminder of the A would show its ugly face. It did begin to taper off and in time she wouldn’t have to say anything, just touch me and give me that look of “I love YOU!!!” Now the A rarely if ever comes up and if it does, it dosn't even bother me because I know without a doubt where her heart is.

She did exactly what JL said... In front of me or within earshot, she built me up to others. All the ladies at her work think I'm the most wonderful husband. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Other couples see us now and think, WOW. I want what they have.

She gladly does things for me, not out of duty but because she wants to do things for me. (Filling my love bank)

Understand that this didn't happen over night by any means. Your husband is different in that he doesn’t seem to be working mutually hard at recovery but in the same way that I had to give in and start changing things about me rather than change her, it slowly but surly began to change her heart towards me and you can do the same thing.

Be strong, continue to persuade your heart (your subconcise realm) of the truth. Notice I said TRUTH not your feelings. How do you do that? Constantly speak or ponder the truth about yourself. Once your heart is established in the TRUTH that you ARE a committed loving wife who absolutely adores your husband and you ARE capable of building his pride up again. That you ARE a good person who happened to make a mistake and you learned from those mistakes… pretty soon your heart will know without a doubt of these truths and your feelings then actions will start to follow your heart and real change will begin to take place. (That’s actually biblical, in proverbs it says “as one thinks in their HEART, so are they…) Your heart doesn’t think, it only responds to what ever is put in there. Just like when someone calls your name, you don’t have to think “is that my name?” You know because its in your heart. Think of your heart like soil, whatever seeds you plant there, that’s what’s going to grow. If weeds are planted, weeds will grow etc. In proverbs it goes on to say “guard your heart with all diligence because out of your heart will flow EVERY issue in your life. Notice it didn’t say out of your feelings… You see, your feelings will follow your heart.

Again, hang in there, there is hope.

Blessings,
SH

(Just Learning, if you’re reading this, many thanks)

Frozen,
Thank you for your gentle post. I truely appreciate it! Sorry I didnt post earlier today when I was on, but H called and asked me to have lunch with him. I was thrilled! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SH,
Thank you for your encouragement,...I will print out your post as well for the days I feel there isnt any hope left.

I feel boosted and ready to get back to work,...I have one ? and that is what do I do when my taker feels my ENs arent being met by my H or I dont agree with him on something that is going on in our life. How do I handle that? What are some things I should do and shouldnt do? Im terrfied that I will jepordize any progress that is made if I make a stink about anything.

JL and anyone else, please feel free to voicce gently what you think as well.

I do believe with the grace of God we will make it through this. My H is an amazing man and I believe that in his own time he will join me in his own way.

warmly,
TG

Trigirls,

Ok first notice your H asked you to lunch. You are thrilled, with good reason. What does this mean to you? It seems to me while he is not "working on the marriage" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, he is trying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now you asked
Well, this whole site is actually about this. Read about the DJ's the most deadly of love busters, read about the policy of joint agreement, POJA. Read about radical honesty, and then use Harley's four rules to guide you.

So why am I lecturing you on what is hear? The giver/taker must be balanced. Neither of you can do well if you deny your giver or your taker. The obvious answer to your question is you talk to him. The deal is you need tools to talk to him in a way he understands that offers him a win for meeting your needs. This takes practice.

You are the WS or FWS but that does not mean you shouldn't have your taker addressed and that you have to agree to things you don't agree to. The deal is to do it in a productive manner, so that you BOTH end up happy. And what I am saying is that making a "stink" is not a good way to get what you want.

So do some reading and develop a plan to achieve what you want and yet make it a win for him as well. If something he is doing is really bothering you or you think is hurting your marriage your first task is to figure out why he is doing it. What does he get out of it? Now, once you figure that out, and if you cannot ask him. '

"Dear I notice you do ....., what do you get out of doing this? I don't understand it. Please help me."

Now you have questioned him, but you have not attacked him. YOU have not threatened him. You have in fact asked for his help in understanding something. Do you see what I am talking about. Do it with Grace, but Grace doesn't mean you have to accept everything or anything. The most Graceful women I have met in my life protect their boundaries in amazing ways, but they have them and they protect them. Often with such Grace, that people are not even aware of the protection.

Finally, if you understand why he does something, then you and he can brainstorm ways to acheive or receive what he obtains from this action with one that works for both of you.

It is all about negotiation Trigirls, and the art of that is understanding what you are negotiating for, and what the other person wants and needs as well.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

YAY!



You are wise to be concerned about this because searching for ways to accomplish need meeting and the resolution of conflicts that protect your husband and your marriage...that's the key.

As JL mentioned, balancing Giver/Taker through POJA is the way to successfuly accomplish this.

I relate to your struggle with this. I used to get rather confused on how to go about this myself, thinking that the problem was the validity of my need or request. When my past methods were not met with success, the DJ or AO ensued.

Through MB, I have learned (and it took me YEARS - I'm a hardhead) that the problem was not at all related to what I was asking for, but to the methods I was using to attempt to accomplish getting my needs met.

I was trapped in a Renter's cycle...vascillating between giving until I was empty and entitlement for having given so unselfishly (not!) and not feeling as though I was not receiving equitable compensation for my sacrifice.

POJA takes practice. It took me literally years to fully understand what I now see as such a basic, simple concept that am now able to execute almost effortlessly.

If you have an issue/topic that you have in mind to begin with, I am willing to walk you through learning how to use some of these methods.

OMG!!!! DJ's....I had no idea I was even doing that!!! That one will be a toughy to conquer. Its almost instinctive, I dont even process it when I do it. After I had read about DJ's, H and I were discussing something and trying to get eachother to see it as we each saw it, and a light bulb went off and I felt a shift within myself and I asked him to help me understand where he was coming from,...lol I dont know if he was just completely thrown off by me asking for that or if he really didnt understand himself but he couldnt even explain why he felt/thought the way he did. Poor guy!

I love the POJA, not so sure he would abide by it, and Im sure that would leave me not feeling so great! Is there a way to do POJA without him agreeing to do it in return?

Still have some more reading and processing to do. He is out of town working this week, he was an absolute bear this past weekend, doing a lot of LBing so Im getting a much needed break from him, although I feel terribly guilty admitting that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I just started my new job today so with that and my girls, Im up to my eyeballs with just about as much as I can handle.

I can relate. DJ's were a tough one for me to conquer, too. But I did it and if I can do it, I feel CERTAIN that you can.

Technically speaking an instinct is something you are born with, so what you are really dealing with is nothing more than a HABIT.

Habits are learned and they can be UN-learned.

The first step is to identify the behavior. I did this first by recognizing when other people DJ'd (in my head, not out loud). After I learned to identify DJ's in other people, I turned my focus inward and learned to identify them in myself - first after the fact and after I had that mastered, I learned to stop myself from doing it BEFORE I did it.

After a while...NEW HABIT.

It really helped me to approach it analytically and concretely. Approaching it abstractly didn't work. It was like something I wanted to and kept meaning to do, but never developed an actual plan to accomplish - like my habit of being late.

If you have suggestions for how to overcome THAT habit, I'm all ears. I can't seem to figure out how to overcome it.

Trigirls,

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

See how much fun you can have in recovery??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Nice job.

OK, call it win-win. "I'm not leaving here until you and I can find a way to do this that makes us BOTH happy. So let's start. What in this situation will make YOU happy?"

It would be good if he agreed, but you can start the process by doing it on little things. If memory serves me Dr. Harley had couples do it in the grocery store, buying food. Turns out it isn't even easy there. Nothing got bought unless BOTH enthusiatically agreed to it.

Oh, and for that matter, he claims and I can see the merit in this statement "even divorces should POJA'd."

Finally Ok, so how did you handle it?

You have an arsenal of tools at hand. You could have:

1. Asked him what was really bothering him?

2. You could have smiled at him?

3. You could have done that deadly female thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> walked up kissed him and said "your cute when you snarl." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

4. You could have simply touched him with your hands and asked if he was triggered by something.

5. You could have simply touched him with your hands and asked if you could help him.

Trigirls, you have power...more than you realize. Start thinking of interesting and yes even fun ways to use it. But, mostly you let him know that DJ's are not really appreciated. Oh and humor works.

God Bless,

JL