It may seem like stupid questions, but really, I think they are quite valid ones.
What is love?
Has anyone felt at some time during their relationship that they don't know anymore if they really love their partner/wife/husband?
If you have doubted at any point in time your love for your partner, how did you find out if what you felt was love?
If you feel you don't love your partner anymore, how do you find love again for him/her? Is it worth trying, knowing it was there to begin with?
Is it normal that once completely in love, knowing more than 100% sure you are with your soul mate, having that great feeling of love that lasts for months, years, then at any given time later, you wonder why you don't feel you love that same partner anymore?
Simply having that doubt (love or no more love), is it a sign that there is no love, that love is simply dead?
I hope somebody who felt that way during their relationship can reply to me, even if they are no longer in that relationship. If anyone who has never felt that way towards their partner, I would love <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> your input too.
Thanks,
And by the way, Merry Christmas to all. I wish every one a wonderful new year full of LOVE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> happiness, health, joy, fun, and _________ fill in the blank.

Minou,

Great to see you again. I'm glad I found your post over here.

I can only share what I believe.

I believe love is a choice we make...and we can make it so automatically, from a very deep place within ourselves, we don't even know we're making that choice.

Like Harley says, we all have love banks...and we allow deposits to be made, withdrawn...from our choice to love and receive love. The levels go up and down from our actions and those of our loved one.

When we stop choosing to act from our love, our own love bank suffers, and so does our partner's LB. Can certainly feel like our love dies...when we don't see our choice to not act from our own choice to love.

What can block deposits, resulting in dropping our own LB balance? Us choosing to act when we know we will resent...giving love to get it...tit for tat...only giving what we believe we are receiving...making our partner's stuff about us, when it is not.

Love is a choice from our belief...we choose to believe we love...and when we get backwards, and only act from our resulting feelings of love, then we stop acting when we stop feeling. Doesn't make much sense that way...since those loving feelings originally came from our choice to believe we love and are loved.

Very complex...lots of ways to block deposits, and have ours blocked (which affects our own LB balance). Easier to focus on acting from our beliefs directly instead of measuring our lives by resulting feelings.

I lived backwards like that for most of my life...until coming to MB. I reacted to my feelings instead of acting from my belief...automatically. Without thought. When I did consider, asking myself your questions...one thought led to another...to study and research...and find out I was MADE from love...God made us all from love.

So, if you're asking about resulting feelings of love...then it fluctuates...and in between being in love with my DH, I KNOW I love him. That's made all the difference. No doubt...my choice. When I begin acting from love, to meet his ENs (which many overlap my own), I fill up with feeling loving feelings again.

And in my studying, I learned about the three stages of marriage...where those in-love, infatuated feelings came from projecting a lot of myself onto my partner...and as we moved into the second stage of marriage, how much I projected what I disliked onto him, as well. He didn't change as much as what I was doing changed...and no, I had no clue. First stage...we are showing best self images to each other...second stage, we show our self-images, only the flaws come in...the not so nice way of communicating, stop listening, turn our partners into our enemies...especially doing the giving to get/tit for tat...and we're working through this stage (it's so long) where we create and maintain healthy boundaries, not reactive decisions, eliminate our LB's, get to know and share our real selves...so then the third stage, we'll be in together...mature love, with a new depth, includes acceptance, respect, understanding...and choosing to act our love even when we don't feel like it.

Where we learn to honor our marriage, even when we don't think our partner deserves our honor.

We are taught to question, to give to get, to earn love...so we can definitely have a difficult time defining it. We do define it, though, don't we? You make that choice and stick to it...even when you don't feel like it right now. Right now passes...feelings return...up to us to get what those feelings mean, where they are coming from...and to discern our stuff...then share it.

LA

LovingAnyway,

It is wonderful to receive a reply from you. I am grateful that you were willing to share what you believe love is. I am struggling quite a bit with this, and cannot recall any time in my past where I have struggled with the questions I posted above.

When I read your post, what came in my mind was my immediate certainty … that I know more than a 100% … my love for my son is the easiest I can find in myself. I love him at a level so deep, and so pure, that I think only parents know that kind of pure and unconditional love for our children. No matter what happens between my son and I, I will always love him, even if the worst could happen. I would die for him without hesitation. I do know you were not referring to the love a parent has towards a child, but I just thought I would add this part before I go on.

I don’t think I understand what you mean by love is a choice we make and that we don't even know we're making that choice. I know I could feel love coming, sometimes have misinterpreted my feelings of love for lust with other men in my life before my boyfriend. My part … but lust has not happened with my present boyfriend. I have only felt love growing to a deeper level as time went, until it all crumbled, yet, I had still felt love for him … until recently. I have questioned myself recently and when I read your reply, some of it made sense …

The love banks. A couple questions, do we really allow deposits to be made by our partner, isn’t it automatic? What about the withdrawals. Isn’t it something that is done from our partner to us, without control from us? I did not want him to withdraw the love I felt from him, yet it happened. I tried and obviously failed in setting up my boundaries, and felt the criticism, the judgments, the non support, the arguments, all coming my way from him. It was good when we first came back together, but until about 3 weeks ago, it started to go downhill, and spiralled quite rapidly in the last week. The love bank went in the red.

Yesterday was my birthday, and he made sure to make it a miserable day for me, no matter how hard I tried to keep a positive mind, to be cheerful, how good I was at communicating with him. He chose to criticise me, to put me down and denying it, to say he wasn’t angry yet showed anger. He blankly refused to make it my day, he selfishly ruined it for me, from the moment he woke me up until 11:30 at night. And admitted to it just before I told him at 11:30 that I wish to be alone. It was not my choice to have a bad day, I tried so hard to keep my learning in mind. In the end, it sure felt like the last blow, that my love completely died right there. I don’t see where it is my choice to not act from my own choice to love.
He also made the 24th of December (both our tradition to celebrate Chirstmas on the 24th) and the 25th miserable for me and my son, so his sons could have the very best of all.

Yes, I chose to act (not telling him to leave me alone on my birthday and on the 24th and 25th) when I knew I would resent very much what I was letting happen. I don’t think I give to receive, but there is a limit I feel (a boundarie?) must be happening. But what you wrote next, I think describes my boyfriend...”giving love to get it...tit for tat...only giving what we believe we are receiving...making our partner's stuff about us, when it is not.” He said to have had 2 last bad birthdays. My fault apparently. Then what comes naturally to him, is revenge. If he feels slightly hurt, he will purposefully hurt 10 times more, his conclusion, his words, I am not making this up. This has happens numerous times, and much later, when the hurt is done and felt deeply, then he admits. Hrgh!

This next part is also very difficult to understand: “Love is a choice from our belief...we choose to believe we love...and when we get backwards, and only act from our resulting feelings of love, then we stop acting when we stop feeling. Doesn't make much sense that way...since those loving feelings originally came from our choice to believe we love and are loved.” I am at the point right now where I don’t feel loved by him, I feel criticised, judged, blamed, and attacked. I had tried very hard to apply everything I have learned from MB and from Al Turtle. I think I failed, since it did not work, the criticism, blame, judgment, etc came pouring from him to me lately. The more it seems I asked him to stop, the more it came. I had still felt love, until the 24th, but on my birthday, it seemed final and clear, the love is completely gone, completely withdrawn. I talked to him today, told him that I know somewhere I love him, but that I don’t feel love for him. Contradiction? Not really. Intellectually, I know I love him, breaking up with him will later tell me that I love him, but emotionally, love is nowhere to be felt. I told him that his words “I love you” don’t have weight compare to his actions. After hours of talking, him telling me almost your exact words LovingAnyway “You make that choice and stick to it...even when you don't feel like it right now. Right now passes...feelings return...” I told him I would try again. But why do I think that when I say the word “break up” or hint at it, he finally stops and realises what he is doing to me? I do believe it is his doing. I am not able to clearly see my part. I do not understand how I could have blocked his love deposits. I do not understand how I created part of this. To me, if he says “I love you” but then does exactly what hurts me, knowingly, then the I love you gets wiped out. If he does an act of love that is followed by an act that he knowingly hurts, then that loving act gets wiped out. If I set my boundaries, but he does not respect them, how do I make them solid? I think this is where I failed.

He said he started to have doubt that I was committed to our relationship a few weeks ago, then he started to act upon this belief of his, his looking for signs that he was right, his decision to build up that doubt no matter what. I am so tired of these doubts, I feel there is nothing else I can do about it, when he has a doubt, a thought, a perception, nothing I say or do can change his mind. He is sooo stubborn that he will believe what is in his mind no matter what is the “reality” around him.

Wow do I appreciate what you wrote next: “I lived backwards like that for most of my life...until coming to MB. I reacted to my feelings instead of acting from my belief...automatically. Without thought. When I did consider, asking myself your questions...one thought led to another...to study and research...and find out I was MADE from love...God made us all from love…. So, if you're asking about resulting feelings of love...then it fluctuates...and in between being in love with my DH, I KNOW I love him. That's made all the difference. No doubt...my choice. When I begin acting from love, to meet his ENs (which many overlap my own), I fill up with feeling loving feelings again.” I am not certain that I fully understand how you manage to reach that point where I assume you are passed the dilemma of those questions about love for your husband. I am spiritual, I do believe of a greater love, I strongly believe and feel loved by what you refer to god, but how do you transfer this to a relationship. I am at a lost. I do understand with certainty the 1st stage of love. The second stage of love I am not sure I understand. I do want to believe I am not projecting myself onto my partner, yet, I see soooo clearly that he is doing exactly that. Everything he criticises, blames, judges, points at, about me, he is exactly doing those himself to me. And he does not see that!! It makes me so angry and resentful. He asks for changes in me that he is not even aware he is doing himself!!! I try very hard to see if I do the same, honestly, I don’t see that I do. I know I have started to dislike a lot in him, his body, his ways, and it makes me not want to be with him at all. I do see a lot of what you described happened to you and your husband: the flaws, the not so nice way of communicating, stop listening, turn our partners into our enemies. How long does this stage last?

He does say that he loves me, never had a doubt. I don’t understand that part either. If he acts as if he hates me, how can he say he loves me? How can it be true? Why is his love bank still plenty full? And mine in the red? Yet, we both know that he does not allow me to give him love, interestingly enough. Again, my observation, him confirming that it is true, after the fact.

I come back to boundaries, my old question. How do you “create and maintain healthy boundaries, not reactive decisions, eliminate our LB's, get to know and share our real selves...so then the third stage, we'll be in together...mature love, with a new depth, includes acceptance, respect, understanding...and choosing to act our love even when we don't feel like it.” I do want to get there, but not in 10, 20 or more years. I do want to feel that third stage a lot sooner than that. Is it possible? Have you reached it? If so, how long did it take? How did you manage to reach that 3rd stage?

This is a very difficult part: “to honor our marriage, even when we don't think our partner deserves our honor.” This is LOVE I suppose.

I think I am quite contradicting in this post, I am very confused. I know I will try some more, but it is sooo hard, so draining, so exhausting. All I want is peace right now, I want to rest, to fill in the love bank enough that we could go on some more without the fear to have it in red!!! I do not like to be in this position where I question what is love? Do I love him? How can I go on not feeling that love for him? I am tired, so tired of questioning myself if he is the one, when I see all that is happening between us.

I would like you to know that you have been so helpful to me in all your posts. Sometimes, I did not feel it right away, but your words do stay in me.You sharing your wisdom is more significant than I think you may realise. Thank you very much. All the best to you and your family in 2008.

What happened to RockSolid's post?

I know I saw it.

Minou...

What if you chose to know that you will connect and disconnect with BF? And with others in your life? That you will feel loving feelings...and then not...and then you will again. Would you fear the love bank in the red? Would it be a signal for awareness or a catasphrophe?

We often do not like our parents...and do not cease loving them, even when we do not want to love them...comes back fast for me...quick fills...even in conflict. Same for the way we love our children...just as you pointed out...we KNOW we do...we accept we do...we do not question if we love.

Could it be you not really questioning if you love...could there be another question hiding behind that one?

Where your focus is...that will be what you treasure...and if you are focusing on lack, conflict, in withdrawal...then you will form the habit of it...and will not feel loving feelings. It's like zooming in on one part of a picture...so you don't even see the whole picture. Still a helpful ability we have to do this...so we can address all of the picture, piece by piece, and in its entirety. I wouldn't judge the whole picture based on one piece, though...wouldn't try to solve the question of what is it all mean on one piece...gotta stand back for that one.

And I have to be aware of where my own focus is...when it is on lack...I experience deprivation. When it is on abundance, that is what I experience.

We take actions and the feelings follow. Which is why they come and go. I often felt emotionally exhausted when I was actively managing my feelings, instead of my life. Caught in an inner loop...really tiring...me doing it to myself.

Easy to look outward and say that loop is about my DH...instead of my focusing on what I'm lacking from him...which means, it's about my focus on lack.

For the whole...gotta see what I'm discounting that he's doing...and know he's doing...and not doing...which is easy to get under my radar...absence doesn't show up much (like he's not DJing or AOing) until I zoom in on it.

Bring yourself peace, Minou...step back for the whole of it...be more aware of where you really are focusing...on yourself, where you have full control, all your feelings from your beliefs, and your own actions...those which you take with resentment, give to get, tit for tat...and those you do not.

Rest yourself that this is just right now...and see if you're sharing all of yourself...in ownership, O&H, with BF...or if your own reaction to your fear is wearing you out.

Healthy boundaries give us energy...like working out adds our energy to our physical selves...so does exercising healthy boundary enforcements. Our peace comes from knowing that we will enforce, we will stay aware, and we choose what we hold ourselves to doing...instead of focusing on others who do not.

Understandable...reasonable, even. Not real, though. You can change your experience, which changes your feelings, through your own actions...that's what Harley is all about.

LA

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Rock...you look good in red.

So your new boundary is if you delete your posts fast enough for me not to notice, then you didn't cross it?

Good to know you're pondering minou's question...sure wish others would post here with their thoughts, too...before MB, I thought loving feelings determined my life...just as painful ones meant others were making me hurt...and fear was something instilled in me, instead of a part of me.

All in this together...finding our way.

LA

I know that I love my wife, but sometimes I wonder how much of my feelings are just selfishness on my part because I do not want to lose her, but that would mean that I love her, I guess. Confusing isn't it?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
One of the things that I have a hard time conemplating is how one falls out of love. Mrs Rock has told me that she doesn't feel any love for me anymore. That is hard for me to fathom or to accept because how I feel for her.
I know that depression has made it hard to see things like she did before. I just feel that underneath all of the crud in our marriage, there is a firm foundation that we can rebuild again.
Sorry if I'm getting a little off topic here.
Well, it's late and I'm probably not making much sense here.

LovingAnyway,

I need to reread your post when I am not feeling as tired as I am right now, but I thought I would let you know that I am left with questions.

You wrote: "Could it be you not really questioning if you love...could there be another question hiding behind that one?" I think you have something in mind, I am wondering what it could be. I would love to hear what you were thinking of when you wrote that. I do actually wondered if my questioning my love for my bf is what is at the bottom of my confusion. I am also thinking of your spiral stairway up, with the post (posts in my vision). I need to think about this. So far, it has lead me back to my original questions about love.

A good friend of mine told me a while back that she had felt the same with her x-bf, sometimes she felt she loved him, while other times she did not feel it. She told me it was normal. She had been the only one telling me that, nobody else has ever told me anything like this before. He left her. So I thought that was the reason, they were not really loving each other. Now, you are the second person who is also saying that the feeling of love comes and go, even when we love somebody. It is very easy to understand and accept with my parents, I know I love them, and I had felt at times no love at all for them, then it came back. I think I do fear the love bank in the red. I know it is a sign that something is not right, something hurts.

After writing that I do not give to receive, I did pay more attention to how I give, and yes, I do have expectations when I give. That leaves me with more questions about myself. How did I not see that before? How did I not see that I do give to receive? I honestly thought I did not do that. This is a hard one to change, but I guess being now aware makes it the first step to change. Thank you for writing to me about this.

RockSolid
Thank you for posting here. I do also wonder how I fell out of love with my partner. I am wondering if only the love bank going in the red for me was it. It sure affected my love feeling for him. I know I love him, but the feeling does not seem present. Would it be it for your wife?

I didn't have a specific question in mind, Minou. Again, coming from my own filter...my experience...I learned that what question in my head plagued me, sometimes guided me to a question behind it...

Like, why don't I FEEL love for DH right now?

Which is why coming to MB really answered that second question...and from reading and posting...answered my first question.

And tracking down those hidden expectations...like really expecting to receive when we give...and the first one you went to is why had you not seen that before? That's a safe question, look for ones behind it...that are less safe, have more fear in them...

Because what you know now changes your right now, doesn't it?

I believe we are taught giving to get from our first days on this earth...cry and you're picked up, feed, held...our caregiver's face lights up when we smile, coo, clench their finger...same for when they laugh, delight in us, when we say or do something...and we struggle to replay that, flooded with great feelings. Like we are in control...we made them.

The whole process, growing up, is to learn we are separate, have limits and power...doesn't mean it happens...or that we grasp...so we have the really old, "I control you with my actions" thing in us.

Which really narrows the channel which allows love to flood into our lives, experience the abundance of it...because we have NO POWER to make others love, hate, abandon or engulf us.

Separate and equal...and we are not taught to love ourselves in healthy ways, either...some assume we do too much and strive to tear us down for our own good...others assume we don't at all, we're voids which will suck them in...no more true than the first. Learning to love and act from love for ourselves is how we love others, and results in feeling an abundance of it.

We talk about unconditional love...the giving part. Try unconditional receiving love on for size...and let me know, 'k?

LA

Hello LA,

It took a while but I am now ready to write.

I am exhausted. I do not know anymore if I am capable of changing my percpective on love and relationship with this man in my life. I know I love him, even despite everything. I see the good in him as well as the “bad”.

We have started to fight again, not as destructively as before, but the frequency is coming back. I try so hard to see the positive, both in myself and in him. But I seem to always revert back to focusing on him, to his lack, to his failures, to his blaming me, accusing me. I can have all the excuses in the world: I revert back because he is not giving consistently, his words mean no S**T anymore, I revert back because he does, I revert back because he starts fighting again no matter how much I try. We fought last Friday and then again last Saturday and it was a nasty fight, really mean, and even when I told him to stop, he continued, and then when I went along with him, he then told me to stop, but he would not stop himself. HRRRGGG!!! I was driving and brought him back to his car, told him to get off, that it is not how I want to spend my time with him. I told him to not phone, tm, or email me because I will not answer. I told him I need peace, and the only way to get it is to be without him at this point. I tried to set boundaries, which this time look like a break that has lasted one week of not seeing him nor communicating with him. We exchange email for the first time yesterday, but… we are stuck. It is laughable!

He says the main reason why he is not delivering good partnership with me is because he does not have the security of commitment from me. He said he will meet my needs, but only if I commit forever with him, or at least 6 months solid (I just received another email as I am writing this. He is not interested in changing if he feels he is disposable. I tell him I will commit if I see that he walks his talk. I will not be a victim. He needs to deliver no matter what.

My focus is back on him, I watch his failure, I watch if he walks his talks. But it does not start that way, I start focusing on me, how I can be better, how I can respect the promise I made to myself, to become a better partner. I try to ignore when he focuses on me instead of focusing on himself. I then ask him to focus on himself instead of focusing on me. After a while, I have enough, I cannot take it anymore and start doing the same as him. Hmmm, another excuse. I think I am not able to change. I think I want him to be a better partner for me before I can invest any longer. I think I can change, but I wonder if I can with him in my life.

I know we let people enter our life for good reasons. I do believe that others push our buttons so we have an opportunity to become better, to heal our past. Trying to change and focusing on me is difficult when he also focuses on me, not on himself. How can I do it without being a victim here, a punching bag for all his hurt, his dissatisfactions in life?

I think I am going all over the place here, my mind is racing.

I fear being a victim, I fear I will be a doormat, I fear I will be abused, I fear he will take advantage over me if I am a very good partner regardless of what I receive from him, that he will just take and not give, and what image does that give my son? I fear I will become crazy. I can listen and understand him, and can give and not receive but that does not last long, I want the same in return. What I get now is being heard only when it fits his perception, only when he does not feel pushed (which does not mean I push to start with). He is self centered and selfish.

I have been wondering for quite some time now that maybe he is not the man for me, maybe I aimed wrong. Maybe if there was another man in my life, maybe I would be a much better partner. Maybe it is not me after all that have all the bugs in my head, maybe our relationship cannot be saved. I am being encouraged by my sister and one friend that perhaps I have nothing to change anymore, that he is the one to make changes.