I've been lurking on this forum for awhile and I've finally gotten the nerve to post. I'll try and make this as concise as possible, but it will be hard.

I'm 29, BH 33. I have 2 children ages 5 and 7. I have no good excuse for what I did, but I had a 3 month PA with a mutual friend of ours. I don't believe I was in love with him, (maybe I did believe it for a short time, though) but I did like a lot of things about him. I do miss him now sometimes but I did miss him A LOT at first.
Now, I say I had no good excuse-- but at the time, I made all kinds of crap excuses.
After I confessed my BH was devestated- He was mostly withdrawn and depressed. However, over time he got more and more angry. He was concerned only with the sexual aspect of the affair, and he became obsessed with the sexual details of it. For the most part, I was unable/unwilling to talk about the details, and I was unable/unwilling to reestablish sexual intimacy with my husband (our sex life was very good before the A, so no problems there). Long story short: my husband was raging every day. He was never physically abusive towards me, but he started to call me every name in the book, yell at me, and vent to me. I could not handle it, I am a very quiet person and I didn't know how to handle his anger. At first I withdrew, which made BH more angry. I started seeing IC who suggested I set up boundaries, especially for the name calling. He also suggested that I try and reason with my BH on the 'lose lose' sexual details of the A. At this point I stupidly broke NC with OM, twice. I was acting like a complete ******, blaming him for everything and being very cold toward my BH. What ended up happening is that with each boundary that I imposed, my husband would get angrier and angrier, and at some point I believe he started to waver on his commitment to R. Some of the boundaries, like name calling, he agreed to and has intermittedly respected, but he would always find some other way to 'get me back'. For example when he stopped namecalling he announced that he would no longer moe the lawn-- very childish but he is a determined man. We were fighting every day about the 'details' issue as well. The bottom line is that I really screwed up by breaking NC and meeting OM for sex (this was a little over a year ago).

When I did this horrible thing, I threw myself at my husband's mercy and confessed and told him I would be willing to do anything to save the marriage. The problem is that I believe at this point he didn't want to save the marriage anymore, but he just wanted to punish me (but I didn't know this at the time). I also confessed to certain very personal sexual details (like that I had reached orgasm with OM).

Here is where things get really bad- at some point, BH snapped and emptied our joint checking account and his retirement account. He is saying that if I want the marriage back, he needs me to show him by having sex with him and doing everything that I did with OM. How can I find a way to do this when I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop. He'll fight me on custody if we divorce... and if I know my husband, he'll drain every penny of our savings to 'win'. He has started the name calling again and he is just hates me and is trying to drive me out of the house. If I try and stick up for myself, he tells me I can leave if I don't like it. BH was/is a good man deep down but this thing has just destroyed him.
I don't know what to do. If anyone has any advice for someone that surely doesn't deserve it, I'd really appreciate it.

mollyworld - first an observation before any "advice," if I may. You may not understand this because you are two things that I am not...you are a woman and you are the Unfaithful Spouse. So I'd ask you to "hear" this stuff because they do provide some answers to the way your husband is behaving. If you truly do want to save your marriage (and that it CAN be saved is by no means certain. THAT decision is in the hands of your husband as was yours to commit adultery) you are going to have try to understand both the "male psyche" and the DEPTH of the betrayal to your spouse.

Observations:

1. You do not understand how VISUALLY oriented men are. So ask yourself this question; why do most commercials on TV play to the actual seeing or imagining of some "sexual" aspect? It's because men are much more "visual" than "emotional" when it comes to "desire, sex, and love."

2. You have no real understanding of just how completely devastating a wife's choice to commit adultery is to a man. It's incredibly hard on a wife when a husband chooses another woman. But here is the usual "key" difference in how the betrayal is perceived.

Women tend to be more concerned about the emotional aspect of an affair. "Did you love her?" "Did you feel 'in love' with her."

Men tend to be more concerned about the physical aspect of an affair. Men, despite the "enlightenment of the age we live in," are VISUAL. Men think about SEX every single day. Men are POSSESSIVE of their "woman." Men will have the most crushing and debiliating MENTAL MOVIES of their wife having (and enjoying) sex with some other man.

And last, but one of the most important things for you to learn is the "difference" between how men and women SHOW their spouse that they love them.

Women "show" their love by what they do, all the little things. They "Feel" loved the same way. It is all the "little things" that a husband does that gives a woman the feeling of being loved, and sex is "just a normal result of all the feelings that led up to the "act of marriage."

Men, on the other hand, think they SHOW they love their wife BY the sex act itself. They show their desire for their wife, and for no other woman, BY the sex act. They show their choice to reject all other women, no matter how they look (remember men are VISUAL creatures) and show that they LOVE their wife more than any other woman BY the sex act.

NOW your husband is struggling mightily with what all of us Betrayed Husbands KNOW "all too well." The almost constant barrage of "mental movies," the loss of what WAS supposed to be "exclusive" to him. The reality that all that he believed in has been "called into question by the one who was "supposed to" have been the one person that he could let down all of his "manly guards" with and NOT get stabbed in the back and the heart. He considers himself to be an "utter fool" right now.

So my question to you, Molly, is DO you REALLY want to have a shot at recovering your marriage? Your husband already knows, at least instinctively if he hasn't 'thought it through' yet, that you CHOSE to end the marriage when you chose adultery. HOW do you intend to show him now, in the face of what your ACTIONS said, that your words have any meaning in reality now?

Think about these things, and if you really want a shot at recovering your marriage, then keep posting and talking. Evaluate ALL the advice you get. Apply (that does not mean you have to "like" doing it) the things that will help your marriage to survive, and let the rest fall by the wayside.

It will NOT be easy. Are you "Up to the task?"

God bless.

Thank you for your reply, Foreverhers. I have handled this so poorly, it's pathetic. I have been so selfish and cowardly. The fear that I have is that I don't have any perspective.. I don't know what's reasonable and what's unreasonable. For example, my counselor flat out told me that I should not have long conversations concerning obsessive details about the sex. But my husband didn't care what the therapist said.. and Dr. Harley advocates radical honesty-- but I would already be divorced if that is what I chose. I've considered staying up all night with my husband and then going to work the next day (something I did with OM and something my BH has asked me to do), but I'm afraid that that will turn into something else which will turn into something else and it will never be enough.

Right now, I think my BH is 99% done. But I feel it's still at least possible to save it, but I don't know how to go about saving it.

ForeverHers,

We have not often agreed on things, but that post to Molly was awesome and SPOT ON.

Molly,

What ForeverHers posted is EXACTLY what your BH is feeling right now. YOU screwed up royally, and then rubbed your BH's face in it by breaking NC and screwing up royally AGAIN ... now its up to YOU to fix it, if you're willing.

Honestly, at this point, you don't have much to lose by trying something different. 1st ... ditch the IC ... he/she is only interested in protecting your feelings and isn't concerned at all about your BH or saving your M. 2nd ... if your BH wants "details", even after a year, GIVE HIM EVERY LAST DETAIL. He wants to "RECLAIM" his territory. He doesn't want there to be ANYTHING remaining exclusive between you and the OM.

I, too, insisted on details. I couldn't get the mind movies to go away ... all I saw was my WW "ENJOYING" herself with the OM. My mental images were much worse than the real truth. The details were tough to read/hear, but within a few days, the mind movies went away, and I've not seen a "sequel" in over 3 months.

This didn't just happen ... its been over a year ago ... and your BH is still hurting, so what you have been doing, HASN'T been working. Try something else ... LISTEN TO YOUR BH ... and give him what he needs to heal.

FH,

Please don't think that BW's don't have the debilitating mental movies. I am very visual...I understand all too well the visions playing in your head.

For this reason alone, I would fire that counselor. Your husband is not obsessing. He is trying to come to terms with what has happened. Questions will pop into his head randomly and then haunt him until it is answered. Then he can put that question to rest. But more will come. My FWH spent AN ENTIRE AFTERNOON answering every question I had. I NEEDED every detail. And still questions come sometimes, and he is always willing to answer them. If he had refused to answer the details I desparately needed, we could NOT have moved into recovery. I would have never been able to put anything to rest.



Your husband is telling you what he NEEDS. No counselor has the right to tell someone they don't need the details of how their "one flesh" was shared with another.


And Dr. Harley knows what he is talking about because recovering marriages is his specialty. He doesn't counsel 10 different areas. He knows what he is talking about.

Why do you think you would be divorced already if you were radically honest? The TRUTH does not destroy marriages; affairs do.

Your BH has every right to divorce you if he chooses. It is wrong for you to withhold information from him about your affair. That keeps secrets between you and OM, and knowing there are secrets can drive a BS crazy (literally).


Call the Harley's and begin counseling with them. Hopefully, your husband will want to do that with you; but if not, do it on your own.

THAT IS your best shot!

SMB - I know that some women also have "mental movies" and I'm not going to get into some sort "my movies are worse that your movies" sort of thing. I acknowledge that both men and women can have "movies." But what I was trying to get across to her was that for MEN, they ALL have intense movies and their imaginations in the sexual area add highlight and detail that are INTENSE is "surround sound and living color" sorts of way, even if they are NOT what reality was to the WS.




Allow me if you will to both agree and disagree with this. No one has the "RIGHT" to command anyone else (other than God) to do anything.

But the caution of "garbage in - garbage out" is VALID because our memories do NOT forget. Once it is "in there," it stays in there. Different people react differently to "all the details."

The idea of Radical Honesty is to NOT willingly hide the truth. It is NOT to "vomit" out all the minutae simply because someone who is under intense emotional distress thinks they "need" the information instead of just "wanting" all the information.

Whenever a BS asks for information that the WS may think could be very harmful to them or harmful to recovey efforts, they should ASK the BS if they really want that particular piece of information. Ask them to think about it for a day or two and if they still want that piece of information, then give it to them.

Caring and protecting MUST work on both sides, and recovery is NOT easy. It takes work. But it IS my opinion that "too much" information can be a huge impediment to reocovery, if not be the ultimate undoing of recovery that results in "dwelling on the affair" and an eventual divorce.

In no way did I intend you to "get into that sort of thing". Your statement sounded as if only men go through that kind of visual torture. I just wanted to clarify for any BW that may read.



I am not at all suggesting that she just vomit her gorey details out because she thinks he needs it. I did suggest that she answer all his questions.



If my FWH had responded to a question like that, I would have really wanted to slap him. And if he had asked me to think about it a day or two, I would have just gone nuts with my imagination, thinking that the answer must be really bad.


I can only speak from my personal experience. I do recognize that some may not need the details I needed. But if a BS asks, then it should be answered. (My #1 need is openness and honesty, which I acknowledge most likely affects my view on this).

it is NOT up to the WS to determine what information he/she will share. A BS is due every detail that he/she asks for.

great points SMB.

No one has the right to withhold information from their spouse - withholding information,once asked, is nothing more than Independant Behavior dressed up as protecting your spouse (oh how great I am - NOT).
Radical Honesty is the only way to overcome these Love Busters.

Give me a break......
Never give a Wayward another excuse to withhold honesty... Which by the way is just another LB called Dishonesty/Lies.

Molly,
You've taken a few steps in the right direction. You'll need to stay on track for your recovery to begin.

NC must be for life. So when was the last time you had contact of any sort with OM? Dr Harley, of course, says an NC letter should be written and mailed by you and your BH. Has anything like this happened?

Details...I agree to the fact that a WS does not have a right to decide what a BS should need to know. I heard it all. I have gotten past those details. BUT if my FWH hadn't given me the answers to all of my questions, I would be resentful, and angry. I would not trust him at all. Molly, we know it's painful to talk about the details. It's embarrassing and humiliating. And you probably think it'll hurt him more.It's already hurting him more by NOT telling him the truths of the events.He will hold on to this anger and lash out at you for as long as you withhold the information that could help him recover.

You could approach him by asking him to write down all of his questions. You could explain to him that it is very difficult to answer the questions, but you will try to answer several questions at a time. You will continue to do this until all of his questions are answered HONESTLY. There's no sense in holding back the truth for a later date. That causes more pain. Get it all out now.

Molly, the goal is to rebuild your M. So you need to keep that in mind when problems occur. Try to remain calm during confrontations. You can repeat to him that you are sorry. A BS is comforted by those words even during a rant.

Take a step forward...answer his questions as honestly, as willingly, and as lovingly as you can. Don't ever spit venom. He will see your effort.



tst, you're right on it.

Molly,

Radical honesty is a cornerstone of the Harley principles---complete, absolute honesty. And so you should be willing to participate in this type of honesty with your husband. Why are you worried??? Lovebusters. To receive this type of honesty, the recipiant must completely refrain from Lovebusters. Angry outbursts. Disrespectful judgements. If you are not safe when you deliver honesty---it's not going to happen.

So---what to do? These skills are hard to learn under the best of circumstances, and this is not what you're working with. Call the MarriageBuilder's counseling center (888-639-1639), and Steve or Jenn can help the two of you work through this very difficult period of recovery together. It's the best piece of advice I can give you.

If you can't, ask your husband if he'd be willing to come here for some help.

SMB - I'm not sure why it seems as though you want to "pick some sort of fight" about this.

We may simply have a situation where we may disagree on the "method" but not the need for honesty and answering questions.

The "assumption" that I operate under is that BOTH the WS and the BS want to recover their marriage. There is, imho, nothing wrong with ASKING if something the BS wants to know about is what they really want or something that they may want to think about for a "little bit." Either way, if the BS wants the information, then the WS should give the information.

But assuming that they both want to recover their marriage, I CAN tell you that many BS's who have "asked for and received" all the "details" have found that it made recovery on their part much harder and longer. It's simply an issue of "caring" for the spouse and ASKING about, not denying access to, the information the BS is requesting. If the BS wants the information, then they also have to be ready to process that information and not use it for "dwelling" on the affair. That is an "easier said than done" sort of thing, hence the vailidity of asking for confirmation that they really do think they need that particular piece of information.

But that's my opinion and others are certainly free to have a differing opinion.

I didn't realize voicing an opinion other than the one you posted was picking a fight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Uhm...I thought that's what I was doing...exercising my freedom to have a different opinion.



A FWS asking me if "I am sure I want that information" would be patronizing at the least, and avoidance and manipulation at the worst. IMHO.

If I didn't want that information, well, duh, I wouldn't have asked for it.

The truth is as BS's we are going to be haunted, haunted by information we don't have; haunted by information we do have.

So, I stand by: If a BS asks, a FWS needs to provide an answer as gently and directly as possible.

I'm OK with you not agreeing with me. Are you OK with me not agreeing with you? If so, then I guess we don't need to take up any more room on MW's thread about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree that in the ideal situation there will be no LBs. But then again, an A is not an ideal situation.

It is wrong to tell a FWS that if they "are not safe when they deliver honesty--it's not going to happen." And I believe it is unrealistic to think that a BS is going to hear the answers and not LB a little. Yes, it's more productive if he doesn't. But telling a FWS to expect it is setting them up for failure.

So, BS starts asking questions and FWS answers them honestly and directly. Then the feelings come flooding in for the BS and he LBs. Are you saying that it is then acceptable for the FWS to say, "well if you can't make it safe for me to tell you these answers, then I just can't be honest."????? Surely that's not what you are saying.

I'm sorry but I find that unacceptable. If you were advising the BS, yes, remind them that it is important not to LB. BUT you are talking to a FWS and telling them that if it isn't "safe" then honesty isn't going to happen.

Bullsh*t! Honesty needs to happen NO MATTER WHAT! PERIOD! (Oh wait, that's an exclamation point <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

This FWS needs to be honest regardless of whether the BS keeps it safe or not. Why? Because SHE had the Affair. A few LBs are part of the consequences.

Yes, it is best if the BS can be calm and say "thank you for being honest", then go have a melt down somewhere else. BUT you aren't talking to the BS.

The FWS MUST BE HONEST.

smb,

You worked with Jennifer, correct? Did she lead you through this process?

My advice is that they get the professional help to make it through this. Why? Because:


I don't see that dumping more on to the husband at this point will make it better.

I do agree with you that it'd be nice if the BS would show up here, so that we could help him with how to deal with it.

Molly,

Ive only skimmed thru the responses you have received. What I see concerning about your post...

You are setting boundries with your BH, but have not helped him with some of the things he needs to mentally get a grip on your A.

I would highly suggest he come here for assistance. This of us who have experienced his pain might help him clear things up. Understanding the dymanics of an A will help recovery.

Everyone is different. Me personally, I did not want to know the details regarding SF with my FWW's A. I knew this would only make triggers/images more intense. But thats me, others require it, or feel questions are unanswered. It is a personal preference, that you as the WS need to assist. Have you read Joseph's letter? If not search for it in this forum.

Have you both read the books, SAA/HNHN?

What stands out at me the most.. You are setting boundries. Thats fine, but you are not doing the things he asks of you. Is this because you feel your reasoning for saying no to his requests for SF or more information regarding your A is justified.

You are both hurt by this, but who do you believe is hurting more as a result of your A?

Who should be bending over backwards, doing the hard work to recover this?

As him to come here for assistance and vent...

-JKT

Hi Molly,

So glad you're here. Posting here looking for answers is one of the best moves you could make to help repair your marriage.

I am a betrayed spouse (BS) and here's my point of view.

First, I agree that you should give your husband the details he asks for. There is nothing more painful to a BS than to have their spouse keep secrets between themselves and the adultery partner or other man (OM). If I were to run into any (sad) of my H's OW, I would be crushed if they knew details that I didn't.

When the details aren't given, you're basically telling your H that you don't think he can handle the truth. The truth is what he needs. He may not necessarily WANT it, but he needs it. I didn't like hearing the details, but I had to know. What I made up in my head was sometimes worse than the truth. And if my H refused to give me the details, we would already be divorced, for sure.

Do not let anyone, including your IC, determine what your H needs. HE KNOWS WHAT HE NEEDS. He is not a child. Your IC is following some script they learned in school. They all seem to say the same thing, and they are all wrong. Believe it. IC's are only looking out for what YOU want. Not what your husband wants. I cannot tell you how PO'd I was that my H needed someone, other than me, to tell him what I needed before he would do it. It STILL ticks me off.

IF your H "dwells" on any of the sorid details, it's because he has to work THROUGH them to heal. It'll take time and lots of apologies, over and over again for him to work through it. Dr. Harley states it takes an average of two years to heal from affairs. But, I've been reading here awhile and I know it takes much longer than that in most cases.

Being unfaithful to your spouse is one of the worst things you can do to another human being. You took the specialness and exclusiveness away for your husband. He doesn't trust that you want do this again.

Please read everything on this site you can. Read all of the articles and read the threads here to see where your H is coming from.

Please bring your H here, so he can get help as well. It'll provide A LOT of comfort to him to know that what he is feeling is NORMAL and that he's not crazy for feeling the way he does. Especially read up on "Emotional Needs" and "Lovebusters", "Policy of Radical Honesty", "Protection and Care" and the "Policy of Joint agreement". This is the most common sense marriage building/surviving material I have ever come across. It's all common sense stuff that most of us wish we had forever ago.

And as far as the mental images of your romps with the other man goes, that is extremely painful for betrayed wives as well. Those images tear me up inside.

I believe your H is especially torn up over the sexual part of the affair because you haven't shared with him what he needs to know. Answer his questions.

And I agree with SMB. If my H told me "are you sure you need to know this?" I would want to slap him too. It would make me feel like a child. I am an adult and I guarantee you that I thought about my questions before I asked them. And if I decide later that I wished I didn't know a particular detail, well, that's life. I'd rather know them then my H tell me I don't need it.

It's all a part of the consequences of your choices.

Molly....you and your H can have a much better marriage even if you don't think so at this point. Read everything you can and treat your H with extreme care during this extremely painful time for him.

Please, bring him here.

MW,

Will your BS come here and post? It would be great if some BS's here could help him sort through his feelings and learn the MB principles that will help make if "safer" for both of you to be honest and open.

You do sound sincere that you want to find a way to make your marriage work.

What actions have you taken to ensure no contact with OM (NC letter, change cell number, etc)?

What actions have you taken to protect your marriage (spend 15+ hours together weekly, boundaries that do not allow your emotional needs filled outside of your marriage, etc)?

What actions have you taken to begin to rebuild trust (provide BS all computer passwords, cell phone password and monthly account info, account for all time daily, set up accountability, etc)?

This is worth repeating and I TOTALLY AGREE.




I think it is UNREASONABLE to expect a BS to act "rationally" meaning NO LB's during the delivery of the most hurtful information imagineable. To act rational over something that was in itself completely "irrational", meaning the affair/affairs, is absurd to a point. I know it would be "ideal", but NOT reasonable. In fact, it's nearly impossible.