I would recommend the action you need to take immediately would be:

YOU ask your H when he would like to sit down for an A QnA session.

This is not something that should happen during an argument. So schedule it.

Tell him you will share anything he wants to know, BUT ask him to really think out his questions, and how indepth the answers should be.

Take it slow. Your answers will hurt. He will get angery. Talk about this before hand, plan to do this over a short period of time. When he heats up, you will see the pain. Apologize, show affection if he allows, and pause until things calm back down.

Be completely honest with him. set the table for the radical honesty. This should be your toughest test anyway.

I actually had to stop my W when I knew the answers I was receiving was getting to be TMI.

"Request" he come here and read and post if he feels comfortable with that prior to your QnA session. Although do not make demands.

-JKT

Jennifer has counseled us on how critical it is for my FWS to answer my questions when I ask. She, of course, counseled ME to "watch" (her words) my LBs. But she NEVER EVER told FWH that he should EXPECT no LBs. She NEVER suggested that honesty would not or should not happen if I LB. That's just ridiculous.


It is possible that he is so filled with anger and frustration because he senses her not being forthcoming in answering his questions. My defenses came WAAAAYYYY down once I knew my FWH was no longer hiding anything to "protect" me.

K, and how is she going to control that? So just because her BH gets emotional and a bit crazy when she explains the details of her sexual intimacy with another man, she should stop and not divulge any further infomation because it's not SAFE FOR HER?

I have to disagree.

Her BH has basically "checked out" of this M or at least is very close to. He is angry that she has held out THIS LONG. And you want her now to feel safe before she gives him what he NEEDS?

Ideally, yes, contact the Harleys, but if he is not willing at this point, she needs to make the first step to try to save her M.

Molly, my advice would be to discuss whatever he needs to discuss. EXPECT him to be hurt. That's where the anger comes from. Show your remorse. Comfort if possible.

Justkeeptrying said it well.

I don't get what all of the discussion is about.

The WS should be 100% honest, period. Answer any and all questions completely honestly, the first time they are asked.

AFTER you've been honest, you deal with the meltdown from the BS. If the answers cause a divorce, guess what? You deserve to be divorced.

It's really quite simple.

Hi everyone who doesn't like the 'lovebusters' advice.

I agree that it isn't an easy task to do here---but as SMB has been counseled by Jennifer, and I by Steve---you do really need to get a lid on it. Will it be 100%? No.

Now, I'm reposting the situation at hand. My BEST ADVICE is that they get to the Harley's (or a competent marriage counselor), to work on this TOGETHER through a mediation process:


I am a huge fan of radical honesty (if you had used it, there wouldn't have been an affair in the first place). And I am of the opinion that molly should share all information that her husband is requesting. I am suggesting that she not do this until the two of them are under competent counseling. OK?

When was Dday?
When were the times when you broke NC and what happened?

You and your husband need professional help. You should call the Harleys.

You telling your husband to forgive you was as effective as him telling you to stop your affair and go NC with the OM.

BS's trust was broken by the affair and again when you broke NC. It will take a very long time for you to rebuild your BS's trust back. Asking him to trust you will not help because of the past. You can only work at rebuilding trust by actions.

Here are somethings that you can do. When you have to go to the store ask BS to take you. Need to go to the Bank bring your children with you. Call BS from the store to let him hear that you are where you said you would be. It the check out line is extra long call to let him know that you will be delayed. Call him on the way to work, on the way home. This way he will know that you are sneaking off to break NC.

Also to rebuild trust is to be an open book, be transparent, is another way to say it. Give your BS passwords to your cell and email so he can verify NC is being maintained.

You may of not realized that the BS needs honesty from the WS but the BS needs to control what information they want to hear and told your BS more than he can handle. At this point you can not untell anything.

But it appears that his questioning has been going on non stop for a year. At this point all you can do is to answer what ever questions that he may have. Talking about it everyday after a year is not healthy for the both of you.

Why not offer your BS one hour every Tuesday and Thursday where you both can discuss the affair. He can ask any question that he wants and you will be completely honest for him. Suggest that Wednesdays can be for him to reflect on what you have just told him. Then with his new insight he can rediscuss what was cover and or go onto new material.
Let your BS know that if he starts to LB then that evening session will end till the next time.

This way Friday through Monday are freed up to be used to reconnect, build new memories, date.

Next you have to explain to your BS that you caused him a great deal of pain by having an affair and truly regret it.
That you ended the affair because you realized that you could not cause such pain to the one you love.

Then tell your BS that he is causing you pain, a different kind of pain, but just as much pain as you caused him.
In the spirit of the presence and for the future fairness that you have stopped deliberately hurting him and he needs to do the same. Tell him that you understand his need to express his pain and fears, but to do it a manner that does not attack you.

Why is your husband not being able to get over it? How did you Meet the OM? Work, neighbor?
Is he part of your and BS's social group?

Many BS's can not handle their WS or themselves having to see the OP. Wouldn't it make sense for you to get a new job, new social circle, move to a new town?

Does the OMW know that you and the OM had an affair? Did you convince your BS not to out the OM to his wife? If so I can see take course of action building resentment in your BS. The OM got to do BS’s wife and cause unbelievable amount of pain in BS’s life. But the OM gets protected from experiencing any pain In his life or marriage.

Are you and your BS having SF now?
Did BS want HB?

"I've considered staying up all night with my husband and then going to work the next day (something I did with OM and something my BH has asked me to do), but I'm afraid that that will turn into something else which will turn into something else and it will never be enough."

Your BS needed to top the OM. BS logic which is driven by fear emotion revenge insecurity is that if you loved him you should be willing to do whatever he needs to not just even the score with the OM but to get your BS at least one better.

Shouldn't a WS be willing to do this for a BS?

I understand that something was lacking which led you being tempted. The way your BS has been treating you would make it difficult for any WS to comply with a BS's SF needs.

Have you told your husband that you want to meet SF requests but that it would help you if he would stop constantly attacking you so that you can get there mentally for the both of you?

Were things done that your BS won't be able to top in the bed room?

Were things done for the OM that you never would do for your BS?

Have you tried to get BS to have fun with you? Plan family outings, include him, go without if he refuses. Let him see that he is missing out on the fun. Invite BS to a movie date, if he refuses go anyway.

I first saw your post shortly after it was posted. Sorry that I could not respond till today. There is so much of your story that I do not know. That effects what I can offer in help. Your husband is in such a bad place that maybe you should call the Harleys. He seems to be locked in to wanting to being bitter. The Harleys can help you and him to move forward.

Thank so much to everyone that responded to me. It's difficult to respond to everyone, so I'll try and answer as many questions as I can and give everyone an update:

It's been a little over a year since I last had contact with OM, who is/was a friend of ours. He is not married. I have heard that he feels terrible about everything, but I have not spoken to him at all. One important detail that I forgot to mention is that for the past 2 years I have been a SAHM. I don't have the money for Dr. Harley, but I would see him if I could (my husband now has complete control of the money and I have to beg him for gas money). My husband is not interested in counseling, he thinks it's a scam. After reading many of these stories, it seems that my husband in some ways has reacted much differently than most do. He has never been concerned with my passwords or where I am (but I have made sure that he always knows exactly where I am), he is only concerned with the sexual aspects of the affair, and the things that I said to him during the affair. This may sound strange, but 'trust', in his mind, isn't the most important thing to him. He believes that I should have kept it to myself when I broke NC and had sex with OM, for example. As for OM, I would never intentionally run into him, but my husband tries to run into him in social circles every chance he gets. I think this is because he knows it makes OM (and me) uncomfortable, but who knows-- my husband is a very hard man to figure out. Our marriage was on the whole pretty good before the affair, which I admit to. So when I try and talk to him about EN and things like that he completely disregards it... he says that he doesn't care about my EN right now, and caring about them just led to my A, so there is no point in discussing it. He also says that I am not addressing his needs (primarily about sex), but he doesn't understand how difficult it is for me. Or maybe he just doesn't care, which he says is the case. He says that no matter how hard it is for me, it doesn't compare to what I put him through so I should just suck it up. He has very unrealistic (in my mind) views about what our marriage should be now. For example, I admitted to him that I never turned down OM for sex, so he thinks that if I turn him down for sex, even one time, and he doesn't go ballistic, that he is doing me and our marriage a great service. When I point out how unrealistic it is to expect me NEVER to turn him down for sex, he says "you never turned down OM." When I say, "but that wasn't a marriage, it was an A", he says "who's problem is that, not mine." He sees this whole thing as my problem to solve (and those are his exact words), and although it's not fair I know it will take his help. But he is not willing or unable to provide the help.

This weekend we had a HUGE fight when my husband sat me down to talk. It started out with him being calm and reasonable, and he told me he was going to try very hard to be calm and reasonable, but it still got out of hand. Here is the gist of it:

1. Should we divorce I will never see a dime from him. He will spend the money that he has or hide it, or burn it before he gives it to me.
2. He wants full custody, and me to get a job and pay CS.
3. He wants me to start looking for a job now so I can save money to move out.
4. He said that there is a 'one in a million' chance of R.
5. The one good thing he did agree to is to restart going to church with me.
6. He did say that if I agree to move out, he would 'consider' dating. He agreed "1000%" that neither one of us will date until a D is final.


The custody thing is what caused the blow up. He believes that I am an 'unfit mother' and terrible parent for what I did, and he honestly believes the children would be better off without me. He works a lot and says that if he has to, he'll get another job or even quit. And he threw in that eventually he'll find someone new to replace me. It got out of hand and turned into a screaming match, and I fought back which is something I haven't been doing.

So I need to decide what to do, because me husband is waiting on my answer.

Oh, I forgot to mention one thing: a couple of days ago I did mention this site to H and he (surprisingly) spent a few hours viewing it, although he did it without telling me and I never would have found out if I didn't notice by glancing over his shoulder (he likes to surf the net so it wouldn't be unusual for him to be on the computer for a few hours). He said very little about what he thought and was not forthcoming, so I can only guess if he'll join

How long ago was the affair and then the next contact?

I agree with your husband in lots of what he says. If the marriage was fairly good before, I've never understood why some folks would risk losing everything for an affair.

I say get a job. It is something your husband wants.

The original PA lasted 3 months, but everything leading up to it/EA lasted probably 6 months. The aftermath of the PA, broken NC and my visiting OM the last time lasted another 6 weeks or so.

How long ago was it?

It's been a little over a year since last contact.

Well, I would get a job. I don't blame your husband for being angry. And as a BS, I would have appreciated my ex doing whatever it took to win me back. He wanted to tell me what he would or wouldn't do. We're divorced.

Molly, I know you feel you are trying here, but I can see several reasons as to why your husband is still losing his mind. If you want to have your marriage back, you're going to have to focus on him -- not on you.


Okay, this part is good.


I agree with believer that getting a job should be a top priority for you - both to make things easier for your BH *and* to provide you with some security if your marriage does not survive.


Do not use this as an excuse. You can post here -- you can try calling the Harley's radio show (it's free to do that) -- you can get the books for sale on this site, or get them free from a library or cheap on ebay or amazon.

You should not have to beg for money for necessities, and it's clear that your husband is punishing you by witholding money, but that will be dealt with later - including by your getting a job.


You have to remember that on this site, the posters are mostly BSs who have decided to try to save the marriage and some long-FWS who are trying to help newcomers. There aren't that many recent-FWS who are trying to recover (though you are more than welcome and we all wish there were more here). Many, many BS don't try to save the marriage at all -- they just call a lawyer and end it. So, in that sense, you have somewhat more than most if your husband is still in the house.


This is very typical for a male and you are going to have to understand this if you want to save your marriage.

[/quote]This may sound strange, but 'trust', in his mind, isn't the most important thing to him. He believes that I should have kept it to myself when I broke NC and had sex with OM, for example.[/quote]

You have no idea how much you have destroyed your husband, molly. You really, really don't.


Not for us. Your BH is obviously trying to protect what is his (his wife and family) and is keeping track of the intruder. In all seriousness, do you have guns in your house?


molly, again and again you try to make this about you. You went out and did the most selfish thing anyone could possibly do, but you are still trying to make this about YOU and what YOU need and what YOU want. No wonder your BH is raging.


Me, Me, Me, Me, Me. Again - you could not possibly have been more selfish and destructive than to go out and repeatedly have sex with another man, but you want sympathy from your betrayed husband about how YOU feel and how difficult this is for YOU?

Molly, I am not trying to be cruel here, but in a lot of ways you are still in The Fog. You are going to have to start worrying about your BH instead of about yourself.

This does not mean to allow him to abuse you, but again, I can see why he is is such a rage. Your posts are full of concern about YOURSELF and how YOU can feel better, and you just basically want to know how to get your BH off your case so you can relax.

Again -- start focusing on what you can do to make HIM feel better instead Me, Me, Me, Me.


Uh -- well -- yeah. He's right. In a lot of ways you WILL have to suck it up.

Look -- YOU freely chose your actions. YOU put your husband through the worst torment any man could ever go through. But everything is still about how YOU can feel better. You chose the behaviour and now you are reaping the consequences -- and girl, you have no excuse for holding your nose and trying to sidestep them because they're icky.

Again, that does not mean he has the right to abuse you -- he does not. But his anger and pain are something YOU caused and you have no right to dump them on him and expect HIM to deal with it because it makes YOU feel bad and is hard for YOU.


Oh, dear gods, molly -- what BS's head wouldn't explode if their WS said something like that? Do you really not see the selfishness and cruelty of such an answer? What did you expect him to say -- "oh, sure, honey, I understand, you can f**k HIS leg off because he was your cheating partner, but turning your husband down is perfectly reasonable" -- ???

You are still trying to excuse and justify your behaviour. The right answer to "you never turned down OM" was "I'm sorry. I never should have been with him at all. There is NO EXCUSE for what I did and I'm VERY VERY SORRY I EVER DID IT AT ALL."

All I can say is - no, your BH does not have the right to abuse you. But if you want to save your marriage:

Stop making excuses.

Stop trying to justify your behaviour.

Stop making this all about you.

Stop expecting your husband to fix this for you and make you feel better. HE CAN'T.

Start accepting 100% of the responsibility for your extremely destructive behaviour.

Start accepting the fact that a betrayed spouse's long-term anger and pain are the price of ANY affair.

Start trying to have some empathy for your BH, whose life is now filled with non-stop movies of his naked wife repeatedly being f**ked by another man.

Sorry to be so crude, but you seem to have NO clue as to what you have really done to your husband - and until you do, his pain is only going to grow until the only way he can escape it is to escape YOU.

I hope that does not happen. That's why I'm giving you such a butt-kicking, because molly you WILL lose this man if you don't start focusing on HIM instead of on YOU.
Mulan

Thanks for dropping in Mulan. You always say everything so much better than I do.

Hi: I just wanted to respond I hope it helps!


Your quote above states that sex was very good before the affair. Well if you want to remain married you had better hope you can get it back. I am sure your husband does not think you can get it back so why should he stay married?

I am sorry you are here but if you want to save your marriage you are going about it the wrong way. I can understand why your H is in a rage because I would have been too. No you do not deserve to be abused but I know why your H has just about had enough.

Men are not women. I divorced my wife because she slept with another man. I did not care about her emotional needs or for that matter any other need she had after that. Now my wife could have inflicted any pain on me she wanted but the only thing she could have done to extinguish my love for her is boink another man. For years I put up with a lot but I was ok with that. The second she did that I was done with her. That may be what you are up against.

For most men we care about the sex. That is our number one need and that is how we convey our love and also receive it. Your husband made a vow not to have it with anyone else and when you strayed it sent a message to him.

Your message to him was that he is not man enough to be with you. The OM is a better man than him. Add to that he does not know what you did with the OM. I assume he thinks that the sex was better and hotter with him than your husband. Like me probably thinks the OM is physically more gifted so you cannot enjoy it with your husband anymore.

Now you don’t want to give him details of the sex. But you do admit that you never turned down the OM for sex. But you do turn down your husband for sex because you don’t feel like it. If I was your husband that would tell me that the one thing I hold most dear my wife is happy to do for another man but unwilling to do with me. Why do I want to be married to a woman like that?

Here is a question you need to answer yourself. Why should your husband have to meet your financial needs? He probably right now is unwilling/unable to want to meet your needs for financial support. I mean you even say the same for meeting his need for sex after your affair. Just as you do not see the need to meet his most important needs even after your affair I am sure he feels no need to meet the most basic needs of a woman who had an affair and is unwilling/unable to meet his need for sex.

I don’t know if you want to stay married or not. It may be too late. But I do know you have gambled your future by having the affair. Your husband cannot think of one reason why he should stay with you but you need to make sure that he has reason to want to stay with you. Being unwilling/unable to have sex with him will end your marriage. He already thinks you found a better man than him. He probably thinks it is in his interest to let you go and find someone that might think he is worth being with.

I hope you see how you are compounding the problem. Gosh I wish you the best of luck because it sure does suck I am sure for both of you.

HadEnough - Thanks for a man's viewpoint- I missed this

"For the most part, I was unable/unwilling to talk about the details, and I was unable/unwilling to reestablish sexual intimacy with my husband (our sex life was very good before the A, so no problems there). Long story short: my husband was raging every day."

Hopefully the poster will rethink this.

Thank you so much for the responses that you've given me. I know that I am not thinking 100% straight right now, but I am really trying to put myself in my husband's shoes, which is very hard for me because I just don't think the same way as he does. But I have come a long way, I was such a selfish POS for such a long time. I guess I have not come as far as I need to and I'll keep trying.
There are signs that my marriage isn't over. I can't really explain it but I have a gut feeling that I might still have a chance. And I do want to save this. A couple that we are friends with stopped by and made a few suggestions to me, which I'm thinking of trying. For example, one of my issues is that I find it nearly impossible to have intimate sex after being yelled at or called names, or even when my H is intensely angry at me. So my (our) friends think I should seduce him as soon as he comes home, which is likely to put him in a good mood before he gets mad at me. They also pointed out that this is a power struggle and they seem to believe that if I give in to some of his demands he probably won't continue (like staying up all night and then going to work- btw I am SAHM but I occasionally work at our friends business to earn a little extra money).
The thing that is most difficult is for me to understand my husband's POV. It seems to me that holding onto all this hate and anger, while justifiable, is just hurting both of us. Even if he wants to dump me it breaks my heart to see him falling apart like this. And so much of what my husband does is 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' He is very intelligent and analytical, and he will point me into a corner with 'double bind' questions that lead to HUGE fights which have a negative effect on both of us.
When it comes to the details, it gets very sticky. Because I am very afraid of what he will do if I come clean on everything... no, he has never hit me and I don't think he would, even under those circumstances. I'm not sure what he would do, but knowing my husband it will be something very severe and I would not put it past him to attack the OM or even harm himself. (I forgot to mention this but H has tried very hard to start a fight with OM, but OM is afraid of him) Is it absolutely out of the question to lie about this stuff? With 2 little ones standing to lose so much, is it ever acceptable? Does Dr. Harley ever advocate lieing?

I don't know if that's a good idea or not. If my FWW tried to do that to me in the early months of our recovery, I'd first be suspicious of her real intentions, and then I'd be thinking that she acted that way with the OM. In short order I'd be in no mood to have SF, and would end up feeling very depressed and angry.

I would suggest instead of trying to "seduce" him, you keep making it clear to him that you sincerely regret your actions, and that you want to and are prepared to do almost everything you can to show him that you want to remain M'd to him.



"Sacrifices" only lead to resentment. What you need to practice is replacing confrontation with negotiation.



You've done the worst possible thing that a W can do to her H - cheat on him. It is going to take him a while to recover from the trauma that YOU caused by having your A. You have a choice - you can either assist in his recovery, or inhibit it. Wishing that it would just go away is a great way to inhibit it, believe me: BTDT. While you might not actually express that to him, your actions will suggest to him that that's the way you're feeling, and it's going to cause even more resentment to build up.



Stop trying to use dishonesty to control your H's feelings!



I'm pretty sure that he doesn't.

Lying is the WORST thing you can do.

Trust me, your husband will feel it. Honestly, when you tell the truth, as much as it hurts, the whole affair picture just makes more sense to us. If you lie, the picture doesn't add up and WE KNOW IT. We feel it. And it's painful! And if you lie, we will never be able to trust ANYTHING you say. That has happended to me. My H lied so much about so many details that I don't believe a word he says. He actually told me once that "he couldn't believe that I didn't know when to believe him and when not to". I thought, are you kidding me!? And that is soooo sad because now, I can't use any of his words to comfort me. I don't feel safe at all.

When you lie to your H, in effect you are telling him that HE cannot handle the truth and that is extremely insulting. So we're insulted, don't believe your lies and cannot feel safe in the marriage.

BTW...Dr. Harley advocates "RADICAL honesty". You will not be able to have a loving and intimate relationship if you have secrets. It creates walls you have to go around and they get bigger. It is also extremely hurtful for the BS to feel like the OP knows more about our spouse than we do, and that they still share some secrets, regardless if the A has ended.

And did you know that even when you tell your H the truth and there's conflict, that the conflict actually leads to intimacy?

I just can't say enough about the lying. It's manipulation. It's controlling. It's emotional abuse. Please don't harm your H any more by doing this on top of the pain that you have already caused him. Lying is a marriage killer for sure, just like an affair. It's still a betrayal.