Where does POJA fit with sex?

Is a couple only supposed to engage in any intimacy when both are in enthusiastic agreement? That would be nice, but it seems to me that is the biggest problems couples face - one partner refusing right now, this time, because they are not all hot to trot - in other words, if they didn't initiate it, it isn't going to happen.

There you are, Retread!

I found your post earlier this evening and then lost sight of it again, after I logged in.

Have you thought about starting your own thread on the Emotional Needs forum? Gets more traffic than the other ones you've posted on here.

For your question...great question.

POJA fits anything...it's more complex than it sounds. Before MB, I would have thought much the same as you...I would have stopped at an impasse. After reading many posts on it, though, I'm experiencing it now as no impasse is possible.

Seriously.

Takes time, truly brainstorming, and minding my own DJs by focusing on being a friend of conversation.

We have been POJAing SF for awhile now...and in doing so, we're discovering more of how each other thinks along the way. So it builds our sexual intimacy through our communication intimacy. One helps the other. As most of meeting ENs does.

In this case, have you talked with your W about not waiting on feeling like SF? Where you schedule it for a certain time and date...and then not cope out? Where you hold to it, with an open mind...with a gradual accepted "no" along the way? Meaning it's not a No for all of it...can begin foreplay...or affection...and ask if there's a no...and if not...continue...break it up into stages...because many times for me it was the thought of the whole thing...and yes, I was a resenter...so I brought those with me into the bedroom...

And I learned that I would become enthusiastic during as it progressed...if I would open my mouth, share what I'm thinking...and we could pause, continue, pause...instead of "I said yes so I'll just do it and stuff my stuff."

Many steps to POJA...and yes, my POJA to initiate when I'm feeling it...or not...or want to...half the time...is there...means that's up to me to uphold it.

During recovery, we discovered what SF represented to us...boiled down to acceptance...within it, appreciation, connection, reassurance, approval...and as we focused on meeting these ENs in other ways, SF wasn't as frequent previously...and wasn't missed by either of us as much, either. Comes and goes...SF may have been the only way we met those ENs before...highest importance...because it was our sole way of connecting.

We've been learning about intimacy...and how many ways to be intimate...sexual being one...along with emotional, creative, aesthetic, work, spiritual, communication, conflict, commitment, intellectual, crisis and recreational intimacy.

A process, like POJA, and discovery...lots of steps, stages and new ideas.

Hope this helps,

LA

Thank you for such a long and thoughtful reply.

I am not familiar with the best places to post things here. I joined a few months ago, after reading His Needs, Her Needs, and posted the same essential question in two threads, but got little response. ( I asked how to get a spouse to read the books without their getting defensive).

I have not been back here for a long time, because it seemed that most responses were not to answer the original post, but to expound on some unrelated personal problem. Many people, like yourself, to answer the question, which makes this forum worthwhile.

I was posting this question to get people to thinking and see how they POJA is applied to things which involve feelings at the moment. I think the answer is, for marital relations, the same as for doing other things when you don't really want to - you can't be a doormat, but you often have to go along with your partner, even if you are not enthusiastic when you start out. This is true of shopping, doing some chore together, visiting someone because you need to do so. Making love is the one activity where you can't just say, "No, you go do it by yourself. I'm fine."

I read all your posts yesterday. My perception is that Infidelity GQII forum has the most traffic of all forums...

Next, Emotional Needs Forum...then maybe Recovery Forum...

I don't know how busy the Divorcing/Divorced forum is...

I click on the "Active Index" on the gold bar above which lists most recent posts on all forums. That's how I found you...then lost you...and found you again.

I understand, also, where you were coming from about getting your partner to read the books...weren't you afraid of her ridicule, so you haven't been radically honest in telling her you've been reading marital self-help books for months?

My DH doesn't read...really, anything (okay, books about poker)...he will listen on CD. Doesn't stop me from sharing what I'm reading...what sparks me...and he does go to MC for IC still.

He used to mock me a lot...why I think I remember your fear of W's ridicule...now I just point out when he mocks...or he does immediately, if he does...and apologizes...tells me what he really means.

I have read a lot of threads on MB about boundaries...and from alturtlecounseling...went to Al-anon, too...so I've learned to focus on my part, my half of the marriage...to enforce boundaries around myself...because not speaking, (in my case it was LBing instead of sharing), is as harmful as ridicule, in my book, for the marriage.

Neither doormart nor control freak...healthy middle ground...where you know yourself so well, you know you will not do that which you will resent your partner for...like shopping...DH used to be a shopoholic and resented me mightily for being his opposite...same for chores (we found we enjoyed doing a chore together, instead of separating them amongst ourselves)...about visiting someone...wow...I just realized when I thought about it, we don't...unless it's my OS and DIL for the grandbaby...hmmmm...DH was very anti-social and I think I've swung more in his direction than I realized.

Thanks for that.

IB...Independent Behavior...would be "No, you go do it by yourself. I'm fine." Either the going or staying. And yeah, I laughed at your statement pertaining to SF. Interesting point, though. My DH plays poker two nights a week...I do my own thing those nights...and the nights he works all night. Not certain those nights are always POJA'd...just certain right now that I do not resent him for them. We are getting close to 14 hours of UA per week. Not too bad.

Posting more means over time, you get more responses. You didn't realize each of your posts were in forums without much traffic.

When you don't get responses, I advise try, try and try again. Emotional Needs has steady posters...I think they'd be fabulous for you. I get the most response, though, when my post isn't to get others to think...but to share what I'm working on, worrying about, struggling with...thinking myself.

Helps me with that radical honesty required for a successful marriage...takes practice, commitment and gosh, being brave. Posting here helped me make it a habit...and often my O&H statements begin..."I asked on MB about <blank> and one said <blank> and another said <blank>." Stuff I'm thinking about...what wow's me, moves me, hurts and thrills me.

What did you think of all those intimacies I listed? Any surprise you?

LA

I think 'ridicule' was too strong a word, but any level of rejection or lack of acceptance in such a touchy subject it where I tread lightly. I don't want her to think I am trying to fix her, but to fix myself, or just to improve our relationship.

I went back and reread some on POJA.
I think I will follow the advice of another poster, and use the work sheets, to introduce my wife to Dr Harley. I see where Dr. Harley has a book, "Five Steps..." which has workbooks. I don't know if they are the same as what is in HNHN, or more elaborate or what.

It seems that Fall In Love - Stay In Love is a condensed version of HNHN and Love Busters. I really like the detailed explanation of WHY in HNHN, so I suspect that the full Love Busters is probably better than the short version.

Maybe if someone has read more than just HNHN they can offer their opinion.