My wife and I read much, post little. We are unsure, given the nature of these boards, what to expect from this post.

And we have watched with interest the heated discussions between K, MyRev, FH, MEDC, MrsW, and others, about what constitutes either "MB Cred" or "marriage cred" or a valid reason for wanting to stay together, among other things.

We have wanted to comment, for awhile, that what we think is really missing from the MB program is a sense that there are higher reasons for a members of a couple deciding to stay together than either 1) personal needs getting met (filling the "love bank"); or 2) religious/social obligation. And we are throwing down the gauntlet, and asking others what they think.

In particular, I admire K for his relationship with his wife. Somehow, others are deriding his dedication to his marriage, through extraordinary difficulty, which just astonishes me, in particular (perhaps others feel the same way.)

It seems that the prevailing feeling among MB readers is that, once a spouse is no longer meeting ENs, that person should be kicked to the curb, because that marriage is no longer functional.

But marriages serve a huge number of needs that are not on Steve Harley's list. Here is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the ones at the top are chiefly available through the day to day lessons that happen in a marriage.

Staying married and working through intense difficulty, which means experiencing forgiveness from both sides, and being willing to do without having emotional needs met -- a form of sacrifice -- is a vehicle to personal development.

But sacrifice for higher attainments is not a value that we teach much anymore.

If my beloved wife had believed, for one minute, that she should divorce me because I had stopped meeting her most significant Emotional Needs (and to tell the truth, I really did not for an extremely long time, both before and after her affair) we would have been divorced years and years ago. If she had not held on to the idea that there were greater things to achieve because she had higher ideals in mind and that sacrifice would be a path to family happiness eventually, and family well-being in the long-run, we would both be sadly divorced and alone now.

Whereas, now, we have a warm, comforting, contented, loving marriage (with occasional small rocky crags).

[b]K, thanks for sharing your story. You wrote honorably and honestly, in reply to someone who asked a disrespectful question and has not even known a moment of marriage. You honor your wife and children. You deserve many years of joy and satisfaction from your life, and continuing growth in intimacy for your dedication.[b]

Edited to add:

Written by MrGGW

Mr and Mrs. GGW,

From my own experience here, NEVER ONCE, NOT ONE has anyone told me I should leave my M. Ok, actually there was one. But overall, everyone on here completely supports my FAITH and WALK to stand for my M.

I haven't read K's thread and probably I should, but I can tell you that I think I am probably in one of the worst situations and there is NO WAY I am giving up.

G-d is the most important authority that I face today and I believe he has charged me with becoming the woman he always envisioned for me which is a wife, mother and woman.

I would ask you to really relook at what people are saying to us and see how they are encouraging us to gain personal recovery so that we can be the best we can be in our M.

Bracha

GGW,

I'm glad that you've stayed married, and having a strong faith-based marriage is one help in making through tough times.

Don't mistake the Harley message into 'if you don't do these things---it's OK to divorce'. Bill Harley has done a great deal of research into what makes good marriages work. It boils down to Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty. It has aspects of 'the Policy of Joint Agreement'---which makes sure that your generous, God-like Giver doesn't run your poor, human Taker into the ground. The Harley's understand that building romantic love into a marriage is the best thing you can do to ensure it's long-term success---you know those couples in their 80's who act not unlike teenagers in love (well, with better manners...). I love the Harley framework---it works, it makes sense, it can be taught secularly or scripturally with equally great results. It's why I'm here.


Amen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*******edit********************

That's great. ******edit**********

SS/BA
You stole from me and fail to apologize. You have not responded with an honest reason for being here, and are dishonest in your responses to questions. Talk of self-serving and acting in your own self-interest. From you, those words mean nothing, SS/BA.

____________________________________________________
Anyway, GGW:

I think the Harley concepts are often mistaken for being based solely in the ENs because they are what people focus on as what they can actively DO in daily life to build their marriage. The ENs are something a couple can point to and say, "Yes, this is what I can SEE in my self, in my spouse." And they are things they can ACT on. The couple in crisis, then, naturally gravitate to the ENs as the thing that they can see and do to begin that trek to recover and build the marriage back up.

But the ENs certainly isn't the whole enchilada. There's lots more to the full-meal-deal in the concepts.

We use the EN as a base, and build up from there. In recovering my own marriage, working on those and recognizing the needs between the two of us was just one spoke in the wheel for us. We also had to add in the concepts of negotiating our differences and decisions (POJA), which is a huge part of the marriage when you think about it. That incorporates how the couple communicates about things - big and small - on a daily basis. That feeds back into ENs as well, which are POJA'd to some degree....how/when they are addressed, for example (Recreation, for one example). It's more than just one thing.

I also was never advised to divorce my husband. Not once. I was gently helped through a difficult place, with great advice, knowing and helpful understanding by people who had been there. The books and the website were very supportive to us, because they showed me what I was experiencing was normal (well, as normal as could be), and that it had been seen and done before. We weren't unusual, crazy, or losers.

It was predictable, followed a script, and that it could be recovered, with all the spokes in the wheel in place. More than ENs, although that part is a big part. Not the only part.

Personally, for us, I think the very largest part was Radical Honesty. When it came down to everything, I think that concept is what brought the marriage through the worst of it all, the "mud, the blood, and the beer" as they say. Maybe the RH is the hub of the wheel. At least in our marriage it is.

IMVHO,

Schoolbus. The REAL One.

Here's my thoughts:

We're here, in the infidelity forums. The situations we see here are marriages in crisis. Marriages where the hardest decisions are being made, where one spouse has usually already made the decision to violate the marital vows, and is actively abusing thier spouse by engaging in an A.

Whether one should remain married in these types of situations is a very reasonable question in these circumstances. The sad fact is that sometimes, the answer to that question is "no". Its a serious answer to a serious question, and definitely not one that should be arrived at lightly. The MB program recognizes this as well. Plan A, Plan B, both are plans that are designed not only to save a marriage, but also to allow the BS to find out if the marriage can and should be saved. Sometimes, the answer is no.

Forgiveness, self-sacrifice, believing in the sacred union of marriage, those things are noble qualities and I believe in those qualities. However, there is a point, and I think we all know this, where lines have to be drawn in the sand, where one person will take advantage of the largesse of another in an abusive way. One can't in good conscience advice someone to stay in such a situation, even though doing so might show the individual to be highly forgiving, self-sacrificing, and possessing a strong belief in marriage.

Now, in cases where the marraige is not in crisis, where abuse is not present (in the form of an A or otherwise), then we are I believe speaking about something different. THEN it is more reasonable to discuss the issues GGW is speaking about. I think we have a prime example of this in both K's situation, and also a long time member who just posted in the Recovery section, Bob_Pure.

People decide all the time, every day, whether thier marriage is "worth it", for we all know, no marriage is perfect. There are two imperfect people involved in every marriage, so perfection is impossible. So there is (must be) a continuous, oftentimes unconscious evaluation of the marriage happening by both spouses.

If a spouse in a marriage makes the conscious decision, for whatever reason, to not require thier spouse to meet thier needs, that, in my opinion, is an individual's right, and I respect a persons right to make that decision. I also respect a persons right to enforce thier boundaries.

I'd be curious to see what you all think of this, as its loosely related to the topic at hand and its something I've been wondering: In the case of an A, the BS has essentially been given a "get out of marriage free" card, so to speak. Once a spouse violates the marriage with infidelity, it is acceptable for the BS to leave the marriage, it is grounds for divorce in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of god in many religions.

Does that "get out of marriage free" card expire? Is there a point where after attempting recovery and forgiveness that the A is no longer seen as a legitimate justification for ending a M? Lets take K's case, since its the hot topic right now. Lets say now, 12 years later, K decided he wanted a divorce. Would you all feel that he had the legitimate right to do so? Would it be because of his wife's A over a decade ago? Or for her refusal to meet his need for SF? Would the fact that her refusal to meet that need MIGHT be somehow tied into issues related to her A have an impact on your thinking? What if a marriage recovered from infidelity, in that the WS had shown true remorse, there was no longer infidelity occuring, and the issues between the two currrently were not in any way related to the A?

On the one hand, I think that once a BS decides to attempt to forgive the WS and recovery the M, the A ceases to be grounds for divorce.

On the other hand, I also think that infidelity permanently changes everything in a marriage. Things will never be the same as they would have been without the betrayal, and therefore, it is impossible to ever wipe the slate clean. Which would mean that the infidelity would always be considered grounds for a divorce.

What do you all think?

I read some of K's earlier posts before that other new thread was started and I thought, Wow! That's the kind of committment I want and the kind that I thought God was talking about.

However, TYK, I have been pondering your questions regarding how long the "get out of jail free card" last myself for some time now. I don't ever recall reading anywhere in the Bible or hearing that God said there was a time limit on his decision to allow for divorce in cases of adultery. So, it leaves me to assume it's good forever.

But....I think if you "re-committ" yourself to the unfaithful spouse, then I feel like maybe the card should expire. I mean, to me, it would be a new promise. I don't know. I've been having a hard time with this one. Right now, I feel committed to work on recovery with my H but I cannot allow myself to "re-committ" staying in this marriage forever at this point. Mainly because I need to see his actions over time. I don't know if I can trust him to protect me yet.

Also, my vows were sacred to me and now they feel broken. I am wondering if it would help, should I decide to make that leap, to have the vows re-newed? Sometimes, that seems silly to me because what good did those vows do right? But it bothers me and I don't know how to fix that brokeness.

Good question TYK.

mopey and Tyk - let me offer up something else to "ponder" and think about related to this question you have posed and thought about.

What does, "I forgive you" MEAN?

I suspect it has a LOT to do with what each individual thinks THEY have themselves been forgiven of.

It relates to "core beliefs" more than reactions to circumstances.

God bless.

Tyk,

I think that your question made me think.

I like thinking. Thanks for that.

Here's what I thought:


No, it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card once you both decide to recommit and both parties have worked together to recover the marriage. Because it is a renewed committment, then you have both again given your word.

But yes, it is possible that later on down the road the ideas and problems resulting in a divorce could be related to the affair, of course. Sometimes the real world of inability to truly forgive, truly work out the problems related to the affair, and truly work through the pain of betrayal stick around long-term, and erode the relationship.

So maybe it's not a card to get out of the marriage, but the inability to fully reconcile the problems could result in the general overall erosion of the relationship. Many years later, it crumbles, and perhaps the affair was just one of the underlying causes.



Forgiveness has lots, tons, huge big tons, to do with it. But also, some folks just cannot get past the affair, despite every bit of work they do. Even though they love their FWS, even with counseling, even with everything they try. And years later, they remain stuck, and the marriage fails anyway. So in those cases, yes, the affair is the cause.

So my answer is, "It depends."

Weaknesses, strengths, beliefs, support networks, actions, work, and the basic relationship between the two in the marriage - these also play their parts.

Gee, big question here.

SB

When I was in my first two years on MB (7 years after I started studying Harley's work), I had two stark contrasts of how MB impacts a marriage. I had K - who kept his taker on a short leash finding spiritual means to fill the needs his wife couldn't/wouldn't meet. And I had another person who used MB to make selfish demands on his wife - and he refused to meet ANY of her emotional needs. I can only imagine how unsafe she felt in her marriage - and on the EN board where he postured on her unattractiveness and how there was no way she could even begin to meet his SF needs because she was so repulsive to him. From my own experience, knowing how lack of financial support can stop me from losing weight due to worry, insomnia - real physiological factors that impact weight gain or loss, his arguments were stark contrasts to K's application of the MB principles. He cared so little for his wife that he moved his mother - who had been openly hostile to his wife - into the marital home. Turns out later on it was revealed this guy-who-shall-be-nameless had been cheating emotionally and physically on his wife the entire time he'd been posting his complaints about his wife on MB. While K was grateful for the EN his wife did meet, and struggled with those she didn't meet, but protected her from the open bashing the other guy invited on his wife...

Kasey saw it too. While he began his excursion on the MB boards closer to this other guy's attitude, it became apparent to him that he did not want to treat his beloved (me) this way. K's example was the last thread he kept up with reading until he left to focus entirely on fixing his own behavior instead of mine.

I said it on another thread, and I'll say it here - K - you definitely make a difference. Thank you!

KaylaAndy (and Kasey):

Thank you. I love to see folks here who have made it through to a better marriage---and I'm grateful that I was able to help the two of you. That's a great reason to stay around and try to help here---and I'm happy to see you here as well.

There is a lot of good that can be done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH, bless your heart. I knew you'd be here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Well, for me, I believe it means that I will no longer hold resentments towards my H for his disrepect of me and our marriage. If I forgive him, I am wiping the slate clean like God does for me.

I feel like I could forgive my H and still divorce though.

mopey - you can. That IS the basis of the discussion question, right? It's NOT that you "can't" divorce, it's WHEN and for what reason(s).

Again, it's what does someone think "I forgive you" said to a repentant spouse who leaves an affair and is trying (or is willing to try if it's just at the beginning) MEANS with respect to the one who is doing the forgiving?

Is it just a "nice phrase," a "nice thing to say," or does "forgive" encompass much more than "okay, I agree you are sorry and I'm okay with things now"?

Think about it this way:

"I am wiping the slate clean like God does for me."

Does God later on "change His mind" and decide you are NOT forgiven? If so, under what circumstances DOES (or could) God "later on" decide to divorce you because of your past sin that He had forgiven you for? What about for current sin?

It would figure it had something to do with forgiveness! Forgiveness is something I still struggle with. In fact, I can honestly say I really do not know what it means."wiping the slate clean" is forgiveness? How does one actually wipe the slate clean? The resentment thing I can get my head around. I do not harbor much resentment toward my W right now, in that I do not want her to suffer any longer for the A. Now, me bringing that about is difficult, as there is still recovery work to do between us, and that sometimes seems like resentment when in fact it isn't.

I dunno, I want to tell my W I forgive her, but I don't really know what it means. I assume I will know it when I feel it.

Tyk - perhaps it might help a little to realize that forgiveness is not a "feeling," it's a choice.

God doesn't forgive because He "feels like it," He forgives because it's a choice (with it's attendant promises to the forgiven) that He makes in response to something that the one being forgiven does as He has promised to Himself that He WILL do because of what Christ (God the Son) did and made available to any who accept, in repentance, Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

When Jesus instructed Peter about forgiving someone who had sinned against Peter, Jesus did not say "forgive when you FEEL like it." He said to forgive whenever the sinner repents. Not only is it a command, it is a choice, no matter what we are feeling.

It may also help to understand that we don't "feel" in love BEFORE we love. The feelings follow the choice TO love an TO act in loving ways. That is also the essence of the concept of the "Love Bank" that is used in the MB concepts. The "feelings" come AFTER the actions, or if it's easier to think of it this way, the "feelings" do not precede the actions.

God bless.

FH....

I am still wrapping my brain around what you are trying to tell me.

I know that if I forgive my H, I am wiping the slate clean and that I can do this and stay married or divorce.

I just don't understand what you are trying to tell me. I feel really dense right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Okay, feeling "dense" is normal. This IS all very confusing and requires time to "sort it all out."

So help me help you a little. WHAT is still confusing you?

1. Do you give up the right to a divorce when you forgive your husband?

2. Do you forget everything that happened when you forgive your husband?

3. Do you understand the application of promises that you make when you say "I forgive you?" Do you even understand what those promises are?

4. Or is there some other area(s) that you are still "cloudy" about?

All I can do is explain myself, and why I feel the way I do regarding *****
First off, I am a "practical" person ... I tend to operate in the middle rather on either extreme. I think nearly anyone who reads of*****story will see his situation as being on the far "extreme" edge of what anyone would consider a "recovered" marriage, by any definition you would choose.

I can admire his personal "committment" to his vows and beliefs, but don't feel that he is qualified in any way to offer advice on "recovered" marriages (other than using his situation as a bad example), since his M is so far outside of the norm for what the overwhelming majority of posters in need are looking for.

Then you have the additional complication of his self-proclaimed superior knowledge of MB principles that just rub most people the wrong way. In effect, **** drew the "bulls-eye" on himself with his own proclaimations.

Consider for a moment, when advising a BS how to proceed with their WS, nearly everyone will tell that BS to pay more attention to the waywards actions than their words. Why should *** be held to any less standard?

He clearly gives advice contrary to how he leads his own life, as he advises strict adherance to MB principles, while he ignores his own needs, does not have or enforce any boundaries, and does not spend the recommended time alone with his W necessary to improve the situation.

We all know that recovery takes effort by both parties, but in **** case, only he is working on the M, but he still claims a "recoverd" M. IMHO, that is fraud.

I made the example in another thread, that I wouldn't seek financial advice from someone who had filed bankruptcy, and I don't think its proper for someone like**** to misrepresent himself as any type of authority on "marriage building" given the status of his own M.

Several of you have been on a crusade to rid the board of trolls, who serve up bad advice contrary to MB principles. If you truly believe that "actions speak louder than words", why have you NOT taken **** to task for the obvious contradiction between his words and actions?

** may have "good intentions", but you know where good intentions alone will get you ... when it takes "actions" to get where you really want to go.

Many BS (especially BH's) come here completely lost and afraid of what to do next. They are paralyzed by fear of their WS. Does ****s advice get them to where they want to be or where *** is right now??? That really is the question to be answered ... where "the rubber meets the road" if you will!!!

If you all think I'm being too insensitive to ****'s plight, or that I have judged him too harshly for our purpose here, then speak up and if it is the belief of the majority, I will leave this forum never to return, as it will be clear that this isn't the place for those like myself who are "working" towards a better future.

Perhaps this is where there is a fundamental misunderstanding of Emotional Needs, their fulfillment or unfulfillment (as well as their ABILITY or INABILITY to meet certain needs) and LOVE.

We CHOOSE love regardless of EN's. EN's lead to feelings of being "in love," but they do NOT result in LOVE.

For you, who knows next to nothing about *** or his time on MB, to make such Disresptful Judgments is very bad.

For example: "while he ignores his own needs,

*** is NOT ignoring his own needs. But even if he was, that is HIS choice just as it is the choice (to say nothing about RIGHT) of every Betrayed Spouse to "ignore" his feelings and needs and act out of love to attempt to recover a marriage ravished by infidelity instead of "kicking the WS to the curb."

does not have or enforce any boundaries"

Boundaries, MyRevelation, are established BY the individual, not by anyone else or their concept of what a Boundary "should be" for someone else. In addition, the CONSEQUENCES of boundary violations are determined by the individual with the boundary, not by anyone else. Those "consequences" can range from "no penalty" to "end the marriage." It is always the choice of the individual and not someone else's idea of what "they would do if they were you."

As for "time," the 15 hours that is "recommended" by MB is NOT mandatory nor is it a "benchmark" that will determine success or failure of a marriage recovery effort.

I would direct you to 1Corinthians 13:4-7 to see what LOVE really is. You seem to be arguing that love IS "self-seeking," etc.

You may want to reconsider this or think about the whole concept of love as it pertains to any marriage, let alone to a marriage where the husband and wife are followers of Jesus Christ in Agape love.

Think about this, MR.

By your definition, JL would not be qualified to "give advice" because his marriage never suffered from infidelity.

Neither would Dr. Harley be qualified to "give advice" because his marriage never suffered from infidelity.

******edit*********

So, just what is "so far outside the norm" and what determines WHO is "qualified" to "give advice?"