|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
I've posted a couple of times but having gone through a miserable Christmas I need help. My husband left yesterday. He's tired of the guilt We have two kids (5 and 3) and he is not coming back until he has a separation agreement with me that outlines his access to the kids and the home.
His OW I am sure is putting pressure on him. He says he will come back but it appears to be on his terms. He can live in the basement, chat with her whenever he wants, spend weekends at hotels with her whenever he wants and I am supposed to just suck it up because he is done with me. We were doing well with Plan A until he faxed her our separation agreement and she responded with all these snide remarks like I need psychiatric evalution. She even said that a lot of what I wanted didn't apply because they "were engaged"- something he denies. They have spent less than 10 days together and the rest is online. How can someone give up 14 years for that? He says he doesn't love me, never will. Questions whether he ever did. I try to convince myself that it is fog babble but how much am I supposed to take. When should I seriously move on.
He is a liar and a cheat how do I get over that?
So my question is take him back on his terms and basically kill myself emotionally OR ask him to stay away until his affair is over? That forces him out of his comfort zone. I am the only one who can file for divorce based on adultery so he has to wait a year. It's killing me that my son asks him 'when he is coming home', where are you daddy' etc....I know she is pressuring him to leave as well. What OW wants her BF to be living with his wife for a year!
He says that if I change the locks on the house or anything, things are going to get nasty....more fogspeak?
Do I secure a separation agreement? I know I must protect my rights as well as my children. He works from home, how can he work away from home? Is that my problem?
As you can all see I need help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 281
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 281 |
Unconditional,
I can totally relate to the difficulty you are having with not believing the "fog talk". I struggle with this all the time. It's hard not to believe your WH is totally serious when he tells you that he's done, won't ever come home, "loves" his OW, etc. I waffle between just filling for the divorce myself or waiting for the affair to die out often.
All I can say is that people say things often that they do not necessarily think, but often what is based on how they are feeling at the moment. There are quite a few FWS on here that can attest to the fact that the things they did and said were entirely stupid and incomprehensible.
I have also been with my WH for 14 years (married for 10) and we have a 2 year old and a 3 month old, he moved out 3 days after D-Day and has been gone since. I can't believe he could throw away our relationship/family either. It seems unthinkable.
My DS talks about his dad ALL the time. It's like a trigger for me and I feel just horrible for my sweet little boy. If our WH's could only see what we do.
It's so hard to hear about what the OW thinks on your marriage and situation from your WH too. Makes you sick that a person could just intrude in your relationship in every way and be so in your face about their intentions with your husband. It's truly disgusting and so reflective of their own mental problems that they would be ok with destroying a family for their own selfish desires.
Some of the other vets can chime in on what you should do in regard to staying in Plan A or moving to Plan B. You might want to also consider getting individual counseling from the Harleys if you can.
Good luck to you and I'm sorry you are going through this awful experience.
Sara
Me- 33 WXH- 33 DS- 5 DD- 3 D-Day 6/29/07 Divorce Final 8/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 502
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 502 |
hang in there! I'd say take anything he says with a grain of salt. Be pleasant with him if you can. I know I'm trying but it hurts! It's scary because these are such HUGE decisions to be making, it feels like we need the answers right now, but some times it's better to wait it out.
The best of luck to you, I'm sure you'll get some great support on here, I have.
SS
SerenitySoon
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,560
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,560 |
I will just try to offer my support and wait for the vets to weigh in on the advice. But IMO, the threats are probably based in the fact that he works from home. He realizes he needs that space to make money...to support his A! He is pretty far gone, and it sounds like the OW is a real treat (barf)!
I don't think the vets are going to tell you to give in to his demands, though. You are the one who is in control of this situation...you said so yourself. So, decide if you want to be with him, and want to save your marriage. If you do, then read all you can about Plan A and let him know your boundaries. Read Mark's "Newbie rant" thread and see what you can get from that...also read Orchids "Reverse babble" threads to try to deal with his hot air and not let it affect you (as much as possible, anyways).
I am as anxious as you to see what advice the vets will have. Hang in there...I am so sorry for you and your poor little ones!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
Support his affair? He has not been paid since early November because he hasn't done any invoicing. He is truly in a fog and I can either swim or sink with him!
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
The decision to let him back in (for a while, though he wouldn't know that) is totally up to you. This is from one of Dr. H's Q&As about what to do with an unfaithful husband. Dear Dr. Harley, My husband and I have had a difficult marriage of 7 years as well as 3 years of living together before marriage. About six months ago, he informed me that he was very close to a woman in a nearby office. He said he was unsure of how he felt for her. After a week or so of "discussing" this situation, we agreed to work on our marriage if for no other reason, our 4 year old son.
My husband promised not to talk with the other woman other than in passing, but he did nothing to improve our relationship at home. He essentially moped around the house and pouted as if he had lost his best friend. I tried showering him with affection and attention and later found out he considered it "too much."
During this time we saw a counselor. My husband did not consider himself to be at fault for his relationship with the other woman. He thought the kiss they shared to be nothing. But last week he informed me that he is in love with her and "loves" me only because I am our son's mother. I threw him out of the house.
He discussed the situation with the other woman and they decided that too many lives would be negatively affected by a relationship between them. She has asked for a transfer to a different location to eliminate their daily contact. My husband wants to come home. He is unsure how he will deal with his feelings for this woman. He doesn't know if he will ever love me as a wife again but he wants to keep his family together.
I have not a clue as to what to do. Is it possible for him to love me again? Any insight or revelation is appreciated! I look forward to your response.
M.S.
Dear M.S., Your approach to the problem, so far, has been quite reasonable. First, you tried to meet needs that his lover was meeting, in an effort to win him back to you. But he was in an emotional state of Withdrawal, and wouldn't let you meet his needs (that's why he said you were doing "too much"). Then you asked him to leave when you found his relationship with the woman ever-increasing in intensity. Again you did the right thing. It's what I recommend in chapter 13 ("How to Survive an Affair") of my book, His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage.
He reacted to your rejection of him in a reasonable way, too. He discussed it with his lover, they decided to try to end the relationship, she moved to another location, and he is wanting to restore his love for you.
So far, so good. Now, what's the next step.
First, we should discuss what your husband is up against. An affair is usually more than a choice, it's usually an addiction. Even though your husband knows what he should do, he will have great difficulty doing it, because he's addicted.
Your husband probably does love you (even though he didn't sound too convincing) and cannot imagine leaving you. Furthermore, he does not want his family broken up, and he has decided to make his marriage with you work. But in spite of his resolve, he is suffering from the effects of his addiction. He is almost powerless to resist his lover.
Not all affairs are addictions, of course, just like not all people who get drunk every weekend are alcoholics. I have treated many "alcoholics" who simply made a decision in my office to stop drinking. Even though they were suffering the physical effects of years of drunkenness, from that day forward they never had another drink. And they told me that they had almost no craving for liquor after they stopped drinking. I don't consider these people to be addicts. From my perspective their drinking was always something they could have stopped any time they wanted because they were never addicted. The proof was in the fact that they actually stopped cold turkey and suffered no withdrawal symptoms. Another proof was that they were able to avoid alcohol for the rest of their lives. I have known some of them to have remained sober for over 20 years.
Cigarette users can be the same way. Rush Limbough claims that after years of smoking he simply gave it up one day, and has never smoked since. I know of many like Rush who, in my judgment, were never addicted to nicotine. That's why they were able to give up smoking with relative ease.
Affairs can be the same, particularly when a spouse is not in love with his lover. Many affairs are one-night-stands, where a spouse has sex only once with someone who happens to be available. Even when it is repeated, a relationship of sexual convenience without the feeling of love is relatively easy to stop when it is exposed. That's because a relationship without love is usually not an addiction, although it is still devastating to the other spouse when it is discovered.
But it's difficult to know whether or not a relationship is an addiction until a husband has left his lover for good. A husband may claim that he does not love his cohort, as a way to deflect attention from the relationship. Then when everything is back to normal, he gets back together with her. Addicts are notorious liars, and sincerity is their specialty.
An alcoholic that I once counseled told his wife that he had simply made the decision to give up drinking. He was convincing for two years. But one day, he was rushed to the hospital for drinking automobile window washer fluid. It seems he had been adding blue food coloring to gin, and stashing it away in a window washer fluid container. Unknown to him, his brother had filled the container with the real thing, and he just about killed himself drinking it. From that day on, his wife knew he was an addict, and he voluntarily admitted himself into treatment.
In your case, your husband is most certainly addicted because he loves the other woman, and he had so many of the withdrawal symptoms when he tried to leave her. So let's look at ways that addicts must be treated to help them overcome their addiction. Having owned and operated chemical dependency treatment programs, I am well aware of the most successful methods.
To be on the safe side I usually treat most affairs as if they are an addiction. If I'm right, we get to the root of the problem without wasting valuable time. If I'm wrong, going through the steps necessary to avoid seeing the former lover, which should be done whether or not it's an addiction, is simply easier to do.
Treatment for drug and alcohol abuse begins by simply separating a person from the addicting substance. In most cases, it is done in a hospital. There is a period of withdrawal, after which the person is no longer physically addicted. From there, treatment usually focuses on the emotional addiction that helps addicts resist the temptation to go back to the addicting substance. Support groups usually try to help build values and moral character that prevent a relapse. The goal of most successful programs is to help an addict completely avoid the addicting substance for the rest of life.
It is easier to create a place free of the addicting agent for infidelity than for substance abuse. For infidelity, any place will do, as long as it's not where the lover resides. Unlike drugs and alcohol, where there are copies almost everywhere, infidelity involves an addiction to one and only one item, the lover. So it's much easier to remove the temptation because you know where she is, and where she isn't.
It is unlikely that your husband will be able to establish a meaningful relationship with you until his lover is no longer available to him. While she may be in a new location at work, I doubt that they will be able to avoid making contact with each other. So the first thing you and he need to discuss is moving to a place where he cannot make contact with her.
To provide an environment free of temptation to your husband, I usually recommend the drastic step of moving to another state. While that may sound impossible, or at least impractical, at first, moves are not all that unusual in America. In fact, it may give your marriage a whole new breath of fresh air. It will help you form a lifestyle that you both enjoy much more than the one you have now (using my Policy of Joint Agreement). And it will certainly make it difficult for your husband to keep his relationship with his lover alive. He can still do it, of course, but most addicts don't want to be addicted, and lack of easy availability is usually all it takes to break the habit.
At first he will go through withdrawal, a period of depression that will make him not much fun to be around. You've already experienced some his moping around when he was going through withdrawal a few weeks ago. Well, he will go through it again when he first comes home to you. Those who let themselves be trapped in an affair pay a terrible price for it all. Many of those I've counseled wished they were dead. But when the period of withdrawal is over, they have a chance to make their marriage better than it's ever been.
Then, what's the next step? How can you restore the love you had for each other?
I complement you on your willingness to work things out with your husband. You have had to put up with frustration, humiliation, and very hurt feelings to try to prevent your family from breaking up.
But you should acknowledge an important reason that he had the affair: You were not meeting at least one of his most important emotional needs. And because of his frustration, his feelings for you are not what they should have been. The woman he now loves met that need, and ended his frustration. If your marriage is to succeed, you will have to take her place in meeting that need.
The purpose of my Emotional Needs Questionnaire (that you can copy from my web site) is to help spouses identify their most important emotional needs so that they can learn to meet them for each other. While your husband is still separated from you, ask him to fill one out. He wants to save his marriage for the sake of your child, but you both need much more than that. You must learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs, and then you will have the marriage you have always wanted.
It's entirely possible that your four year old child has something to do with your failure to meet your husband's emotional needs. What changed between you and your husband when your child arrived? It could have prevented you from meeting his emotional needs. Privacy, for one thing. Maybe you didn't have much time with each other to talk, to connect emotionally.
You say that your seven years of marriage were as difficult as the three years you were living together. Have you both been the victims of Love Busters? Have you been destroying your relationship with angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments or selfish demands. Make a two copies of my Love Busters Questionnaire so that both of you can identify Love Busters that may be wrecking everything you are trying to create. Even if you know how to meet each other's emotional needs, Love Busters can ruin your efforts. On the other hand, if you know how to throw the rascals out, the love that you build will stay put. The love units you deposit by meeting each other's emotional needs will accumulate in the Love Bank, and you will both be in love with each other once more. In some ways it is easier to Plan A when they are in the house, because of their proximity, and in some ways it is harder because you are acutely aware of what they are doing regarding the OW. (This is what I did.) You will have much more peace with him out, and can still Plan A, but it might take longer to bring about an end, IMO. Everything is a trade-off. Even if you do let him back home, there will come a time not very far off, like maybe a month and a half or so, when you will ask him to leave till his affair is over. The needs of the children should also be taken into account.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. ~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
And no, at whatever point you have him move away, be it now or in a short time, NO it is not your problem what happens to him and his work. If he can work at home, he can work somewhere else, too.
His consequences are not your concern. Your only concern is when (now or later) to implement the consequences.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. ~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,560
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,560 |
Wow, didn't know that. So, tell me then, how is he in the position to make demands of you?
The most important thing IMO is that you decide if you want to try and save the marriage. I know things are really bad right now, and you may need a lot of time to work through some of the anger and figure it out. But you cannot put yourself through a Plan A if you are not sure you want to be with him. It is hard enough from what I've read, and from what my DH has gone through, even when the love for the WS is still strong.
My prayers are with you and I hope that you can get the support you need here and from your friends and family. What is the situation there (with his/your family)? Is the OW married? Is there exposure that can be done to shed light on the sitch?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
I've exposed to anyone who can influence. I guess that's why she thinks I am crazy. Everything I do just draw them closer. I will do whatever it takes to keep my family together. But there is this creeping feeling that maybe I am better off! Maybe I need to stop romanticizing the past and accept my marriage for what it was.
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 27,069
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 27,069 |
You need to secure your finances. Get some kind of separation agreement. Then you can do a good Plan A - but that should only last less than 6 months. If you have already done a good Plan A, then time for Plan B.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 271
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 271 |
Maybe I need to stop romanticizing the past... Well, ...., be careful also not to romanticize the future. If you end up in Plan D, you can expect to be poorer, lonelier, and raising children of divorce. You and your WH's best chance for mutual happiness is if your current M can be restored. Plan A helps you become the best spouse you can be, and hopefully motivate your WS to choose the M. If that doesn't work, after a time, to protect your love for your WS and to let them experience all the consequences of not choosing the M, you can switch to Plan B. Don't hastily jump to Plan D. If you do, don't expect it to make you happier. And know what you are signing up for. - WG
BH 40, Married: 2002, Discovered affairs: Fall 2005, Divorced: Spring 2008
Advocate grace daily
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
I know D won't make me happier. He does.
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
He thinks if we love the kids then everything will just work out like a fairytale and he can have his 25 year old plaything forever. I am sure this is midlife!
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 27,069
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 27,069 |
Well, how convenient for him. I'm sure there are lots of men that would like to try having a loving wife, a wonderful family and a 25 year old on the side.
And she sounds like a real psychob*tch. Unconditional, they almost always come out of the addiction. Anyone can see that his thinking is a little off.
Hang in there and guard your heart. Take care of your children and make a good life. Protect your finances. I'm certain he will be back.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
Update: He's phoned, wants access to the kids wants to hammer out a spearation agreement. I just can't help but here all of the hateful things both he and she have been saying over the past weeks. Part of me says- move on, accept. The other says hang on......He's coming over tonight how do I handle things? No affair talk, no relationship talk. Just business?
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,986
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,986 |
Update: He's phoned, wants access to the kids wants to hammer out a spearation agreement. I just can't help but here all of the hateful things both he and she have been saying over the past weeks. Part of me says- move on, accept. The other says hang on......He's coming over tonight how do I handle things? No affair talk, no relationship talk. Just business? So, because HE says it's time, it's time? I don't think so. You've only just begun. First, this is NOT your husband. This is WH who is doing the talking. If YOU aren't ready to "hammer out a separation agreement" then don't. Why on earth would anyone try to negotiate with a WH (known liar, cheat, etc.)? Believer is right. You DO need to protect yourself legally. That doesn't necessarily mean filing for D but it should mean talking to an attorney (an advocate for YOU!) about your options. When WH comes around making his demands about the way this is going to go? You sweetly reply, "I don't do separation or divorce. You'll need to speak to my attorney about those kinds of things. How was your day honey"? Right now you are the third leg of this affair. OW is eating up the drama. WH is feeding off the feud between the two of you. Protect yourself legally. Then start turning the tables and initiate a GREAT Plan A. IGNORE OW. I'm no Plan A expert so hopefully some who are will come along and give you some suggestions to get that started officially.
Last edited by princessmeggy; 01/02/08 11:32 AM.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
I have spoken to a lawyer and do know my rights. I will just confirm them today. I am sure he just wants an agreement so he can still see his kids and got overseas to see his girlfriend whenever he wants.
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
"I don't do separation or divorce. You'll need to speak to my attorney about those kinds of things. How was your day honey"? This was spot-on.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. ~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,937
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,937 |
When WH comes around making his demands about the way this is going to go? You sweetly reply, "I don't do separation or divorce. You'll need to speak to my attorney about those kinds of things. How was your day honey"? Hall of fame response! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 88 |
Well he came over. I was nervous. Talked a bit. He has no issues with me having sole custody and here's the kicker: he is considering moving back to where we used to live (1100 miles away and where his lover is). Says he will see the kids every 6 weeks for 7 days. Hmm not sure about that idea. He is actually trying to bribe me in some ways, if I agree he will pay off our debt, give me the house, etc....It makes me think he never wanted to be a father in the first place. I'm actually in shock. Is this the fog talking? Aren't I better to keep him here? What should I do?
And what do you tell your children when it's not you who wants to leave. When it's not you who wants the marriage to end?
D Day PA 11/22/07, PA started 11/10/07
WH Engaged to OW by 12/07/07
WH 41
BS 37
OW 25
DD 3
Married 10 Years + 3 years cohabitation
DS5
WH moved to another country 01/27/08
|
|
|
1 members (1 invisible),
1,031
guests, and
63
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,624
Posts2,323,521
Members72,026
|
Most Online6,102 Jul 3rd, 2025
|
|
|
|