"If John read Dr. Harley's response yet still chooses not to respond that says to me John may not like LOGIC."

I agree. And I'm not saying that to be 'snarky' or because I have just decided I don't like John.

I am saying that because addicts, and WS's, don't like it when anyone tries to stop them from getting their next fix. And it doesn't even really matter what method is used to attempt to take the crack pipe away from the addict - logic, 'niceness', whatever...

Until the addict is ready to give up the addiction, which BTW usually translates into the problems caused by the addiction get too tough to ignore or manage, the addict will get angry and defiant with anyone, employing any method (or tone), who tries to tell them the addiction is a problem.

John is experiencing some unpleasant consequences of the adultery. Jane cheated on him, Jane doesn't want to POJA, Jane's kids are rebelling...

Other types of addicts have problems too that interfere with the pleasure of their addiction.

I see nothing logical, let alone compassionate, about trying to help an addict avoid the negative consequences of their addiction so they can continue being addicted.

If an alcoholic gets a hangover, he doesn't really need a hangover cure, he needs to get and stay sober.

If a drunk driver kills somebody she doesn't need her victims to be more careful and stay out of her way so they won't spoil her fun; she needs to stop what she is doing.

If a crack addict loses their job because of their addiction, they don't need a free place to live and a supply of more crack, they need to kick the habit so they can keep a job.

Whether or not Jane's kids really are behaving as John claims, no doubt their mother moving one of her adultery partners into their home is not likely to result in those kids having more respect for their mother. Jane's kids have a very valid reason for not respecting her IMHO. I'm willing to bet that if either John and Jane sat those kids down and told them they realize the adultery was wrong, and apologized for destroying their family, and that they were ending the adultery, those kids would have a lot more respect for their mother.

John's reason for wanting Jane's kids to behave better are about him realizing the adultery is not going to continue to be like it was in the beginning. The puppy love part has ended. Real life plus the consequences of the adultery are starting to surface. NO relationship can really compete with the distortion and delusion of the initial stages of an adultery addiction, let alone an adultery-based relationship. The beginning of adultery is like an extreme and artificial high. It can't be maintained forever. John is desparately hoping that maybe if he can just coerce Jane into coercing her kids to behave better, then maybe he can have as much fun with Jane as he did in the beginning of the adultery. But even if her kids are misbehaving, and even if he can somehow get them to behave up to his standards, the euphoria of the brand new adultery is over and it's not ever coming back.

Why do you think Jane cheated on John with an OM already?
SHE was trying to recapture that high again. At least she realized that it really had nothing to do with John, or her kids' behavior. The addictive high caused by adultery is temporary. Jane knew exactly where to go to find it again.

Meanwhile, while the high fades the fallout starts piling up around the adulterers, further spoiling what little fun was left in the adultery.

Now while some may believe it's a good idea to try to help the addict make the consequences more pleasant so the addiction will last longer... (here honey let me hold your hair back while you puke - and don't you listen to those meanies trying to tell you it's called alcoholism) others will try to get the addict to see how the addiction and it's consequences will only get worse unless they kick it.

Oh yea, and then there's the:

well they're going to keep drinking anyway, it doesn't matter that this is an AA meeting, just give them the hangover cure they asked for...'logic'...

"Oh and I forgot to mention that way back, about 8 months into our relationship, despite all the sentiments of deep love and everlasting commitment, Jane had an affair on me. I found out. I found out about all the lies and sneakiness. And she denied it, and denied it. But when she could not hide it anymore, she told me a partial truth, and then after more probing, another partial truth, until I finally gave up on probing. She told me that she was under stress because her and I were disagreeing on boundaries and how partners should treat and value each other. She told me that she was looking for an escape. She had also been exercising and she liked the feeling of being attractive and wanted. She told me she knew it was wrong, but she couldn’t seem to stop it. It hurt me beyond words."

John, have you ever considered that Jane is just not the faithful type?

It's typical for adulterers to assume that their relationship is somehow special, that even though they know their adultery partner is certainly capable and willing to cheat (because after all they cheated on their spouse to be with the adultery partner), that they only cheated because their spouse/marriage was so horrible and they won't cheat on their new special/soulmate adultery partner.

But as you can see now, that is a false assumption. Jane has already cheated on you at least once. And since you discovered it instead of her confessing it, with her denying and denying it, it would be naive to assume that she only cheated that once and isn't involved with the same or another OM now.

Doesn't this make you wonder if just maybe you aren't so special and a soulmate from her POV? Maybe her reason for cheating on her husband with you has more to do with her obvious lack of morals and integrity than it does with either her husband or you?

She told you all sorts of horror stories to justify cheating with you, right? Aren't you the least bit curious what sort of horror stories she told the new OM about you to justify cheating with him? Surely you don't think she told that OM that you and she were special soulmates but were just having some disputes about how to discipline your kids?

John, you are probably basically a good guy that didn't know how to protect your marriage from adultery, fell for the temptation of an OW, and thought you were helping Jane and her children.

IMHO you should give careful consideration to how Jane villified her husband and worry that she is highly likely to make similar accusations about you.

Observe her patterns of behavior and stop assuring yourself she would never do that to you... because apparently she is nowhere near as invested emotionally as you seem to be.

I think the we're all in agreement here and he's gone. We're arguing with each other about an adulteror who is in a crappy relationship and is now gone and not receptive to the reality that his reltationship, whether based on adultery or not, is dead.

Lets call a truce and see if he comes back. We all agree he's wrong. We disagree in response on his part or how to address him. MM, you are a man of faith and see the world in black and white. He doesn't, however, and sadly, gives Catholics a bad name. The fact that he hides behind the sacrament of reconciliation shows he has no clue what it is. It's not intended to be a "let me sin all week and go talk to the priest and be forgiven so I can go sin some more".

That's a Catholic who doesn't know or understand what it really is and is a lost soul.

If he was truly Catholic, he would understand that his sacrament of marriage was binding for life and that he was obligated to try his best to preserve his marriage due to the covenant made with God.

Even the Catholic church doesn't approve of divorce and rarely grants annulments. An annuled marriage for adultery usually frees the betrayed party to marry again, but not the adulterer. My dad is proof of this. He cannot marry again in the Catholic church, but my mom could because she was the betrayed who tried to preserve the marriage, but he strayed again.

Those are my two cents. No one here condones adultery. I think most are merely encouraging a different approach to someone lost in the fog. We've lost this guy because he got slammed in the face. No one is saying talk to him with open arms and be all lovey dovey and forgiving, but you can be compashionate without being hostile. The fact of the matter is that I think most here approached him logically and compashionately, but he still wouldn't listen or was too defensive to be receptive.

For what it's worth...

The title of this particular message board IS -

AFTER DIVORCE: Dating and Relationships

So IMHO 'tolerance' and 'non-judgementalism' need not be extended to the extreme that adulterous dating & relationships BEFORE divorce shouldn't be challenged.

I guess it just amazes me how easily some posters forget that every time an active unrepentent adulterer comes here seeking 'support' (um for their adultery) they have a BS and maybe even BC (BetrayedChildren) who may be desperately hoping, perhaps even praying, for their WS/WP (Wayward Parent) to somehow see the truth that what they are doing is wrong and harmful.

So while some are motivated to dictate that all responses to active adulterers be 'non-judgemental' (um adultery-enabling) MY main motive in posting to active adulterers is to try to tell them what their BS and BC hope somebody will tell them.

BTW, confronting a WS with the truth and NOT buying into their adultery-justifying fog-talk is in total compliance with both the MB principles and the posting rules here.

There is a lot of reference to Catholicism, I'm not a Catholic.
I believe that the poster is divorced, and is an a relationship BASED on an affair. The poster came here for HELP and got fire and brimstone. The poster previously sought counsel from his clergy.
No one here condones adultery, but at what point do we move on? Never? Seriously...if a person is an adulterer, at what point will they be forgiven, and when do we stop judging and start helping?
Obviously the poster acknowledges his adultery, but years have gone by and divorces have been finalized. What if he truly realizes the ramifications of the affair?? THEN can we move on to his actual plea for advice, his ill fated relationship. Then can we be kind and offer suggestions for moving on?

The problem is for him to be helped and for him to be able to move on, requires him to end his relationship with Jane.

Obviously, he does NOT.


Resilent asked: "John,
If I'm reading this correctly, you and Jane are an adultery-based marriage, correct?"

John's reply: "Sort of I guess."

and then later he posts this:

"So did I have an affair? I don't no. My heart tells me know, but the courts say yes."

This is clearly NOT acknowlegement of anything.

Of course he does. He mentioned it here...

Although I probably deserve some amount of judging, I am not sure it is by you. It seems to be very easy for you to jump to conclusions. I am not a perfect person, nor do I profess to be. I have flaws but I am honest about them. And I try to be a good person. I live the motto "random acts of kindness" and I live it very often. My charity and good deeds are only seen by God and sometimes for the person/people I am doing it for. Does that make up for everything, no, but I have a good heart and I think God (who is the ultimate judge) knows that.

I have read every word on the MB site, and I have read multiple books of his. And I have to say I am a bit shocked and disappointed that the first piece of feedback that I get after pouring my heart onto this board is some cheap-shot judgement from you.


and here...

What they don't have any knowledge of is the amount of time I spent with my priest going through reconciliation, I am not talking 10 a minute in and out thing here. It was indepth, and they listened and understood. And considering the first response and your thoughtful warning, I think they showed much more humanity than what I may be about to receive. In the end, I went through reconciliation. And if someone wants to question whether it was good enough, they they need to take it up with the Pope or maybe just take over for God himself.

Again, Bluerskies...as Dr. Harley was poiting out...he needs to recognize that his relationship with Jane is not going anywhere, due to the start it had and the nature of affairs.

to help him would be to get him to move on and get into a healthy relationship.

But, he didnt want to hear that. he wanted to hear how to fix the unfixable!

All I have to offer is my attempt at some sort of symapthy.......umph.....erm......grp.......*******edit*******!!!!!!!!!!!!

*******edit*******!!!!!!

An adulterer answering:

"I don't no. My heart tells me know"

to a question regarding whether they had an affair is not exactly an indication that they have de-fogged enough to admit anything.

According to the info John himself provided:

He was still married when he began the relationship with Jane.

Jane was still married too (has he said that her divorce is final yet?).

Neither John nor Jane spent any time alone (defined as not in a relationship) after their marriages ended to grow as individuals and truly end that chapter of their lives before jumping into a new relationship.

Apparently neither John nor Jane used MB principles to give their marriages a chance of recovering and being successful.

Neither John nor Jane got any counseling to address their part in their marriage's problems and failure. They are both still very much in blame their spouse 100% mode.

They are having lots of problems already, Jane cheating on John, and John trying to dictate discipline regarding Jane's children, Jane thinking MB principles like POJA are 'stupid', etc.

Even if we weren't already aware of the statistics regarding the very low success rate of adultery-based relationships, the info John provided definitely indicates a failing relationship that even MB principles is not very likely to save.

Even if this wasn't a message board for the discussion of dating and relationships started AFTER divorce, even if this message board wasn't at an internet site dedicated to stopping adultery and saving marriages (vs enabling adulteries), then based on the info John provided, it would be naive and misleading to NOT tell John that he should end the relationship with Jane.

But you know what? I don't see any logical, not even any so-called 'compassionate', reason for ignoring the fact that adultery is indeed immoral, that this internet site is FOR the prevention of adultery, and that successful adultery-based marriages are statistically extremely rare.

BluerSkies:

Trying to understand where you're coming from...
Your info states:

43 y/o
Divorced 2 years
Cheating Spouse
Mom of 2 (14 and 18)
In a relationship

How long ago did your current relationship start?

Meremortal, I was separated for over 2 years AND divorced for about a year and a half, before I met my boyfriend. He has been divorced close to 6 years. My joined date does not reflect my divorce status, btw. I joined this site after my divorce, and after I began dating. I wish I would have known of it during my marriage/infidelity/divorce. I was introduced to MB by my boyfriend and have found it useful.

I realize that John needs to realize the impact of his affair in relation to his relationsip with Jane. But I feel you are ONLY seeing what YOU want to see. Dr. Harley HIMSELF, after giving John the verrrry slim odds, gave John the tools to work on his relationship with Jane using MB principals. That's good enough for me.

Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away. I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach. If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?

"Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away. I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach. If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?"

Nobody forced John to leave. He left for the same reason most WS's leave - because they are not FWS's yet and MOST of the posters here do not give them the adultery condoning 'support' they seek.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think my approach was wrong. Because you are not in a position of authority over me or anyone else on this message board, AND your approach is in fact both ineffective and wrong IMHO. Also, your approach conflicts with the purpose and philosophy of this site - not mine.

ALL unrepentent adulterers will assure you that ALL they want to hear here is support for their adultery. That does not translate to therefore that is all they SHOULD hear here.

BTW, what Dr. Harley told John was a confirmation (not a chastisement) of what we had been trying to tell John. And John himself pointed out that Jane is not interested in MB principles like POJA.

DO you also believe that if an alcoholic shows up at an AA meeting, NOBODY at the meeting should tell him he has a problem? What if the alcoholic says the reason they showed up at the meeting is they ONLY want to learn how to get rid of a hangover? Or what to do about the dry heaves? Would you just say, hey the guy says he wants to keep drinking so we shouldn't tell him to stop drinking, let's all just give him what he wants? Or would you point out to the alcoholic the purpose of AA and acknowledge that he's not ready for AA yet? If the alcoholic left the AA meeting, would you pretend that the others at the meeting were to blame for his leaving, because they didn't give him what he asked for?

This is not a 'come and get whatever you want here: support FOR committing adultery OR support for stopping adultery' site.

Apparently some who post here don't understand that though.

This was Dr. Harley's advice to John:

"While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice."

Note that Dr. Harley didn't pretend that John's likely decision to ignore the advice (and to leave this message board), had anything to do with anything we posted to John being the wrong thing to tell John, or being too judgemental.

Also, Dr. Harley chose to tell John the truth about his chances of turning an adultery into a successful marriage, even though several other posters had already said so. Apparently, Dr. Harley didn't believe it was wrong to keep giving John that message.

I'm confident that Dr. Harley had gotten the point that John doesn't want to reconcile with his BW, that he ONLY wants to somehow try to make his adultery work. Yet Dr. Harley didn't just tell John what he wanted to hear, or offer to just help John with his unlikely agenda.

You are perhaps assuming that if John does contact Dr. Harley for counseling, that Dr. Harley will not continue to point out to John that reconciliation with his BW is still the better option, in terms of both what is right and what is most likely to be successful? No doubt there are plenty of other counselors John can go to who will try to help him keep his dying adultery alive and will refrain from telling John that his adultery is wrong and doomed. There are also other internet sites adulterers can go to for all the support they want in justifying adultery.

But if John really wants to have a healthy, happy marriage, then he at some point will have to face the fact that betraying his wife to cheat with Jane wasn't going to give that result. John has two goals that conflict with each other. He wants a happy marriage but he also wants to continue his adultery. There is an exremely small chance that, even with the best professional help, he can somehow turn the adultery into a somewhat successful marriage (keep in mind that the statistics reflect only what little percentage of adulteries even result in marriage - not necessarily a satisfying marriage)... OR there is a much larger chance that, even without professional help, he can reconcile with his betrayed wife and turn that into a fabulous marriage.

And let's not forget that Jane has already made it quite clear that she is NOT interested in POJA. So according to the POV of those who think it's rude to tell John anything he doesn't want to hear, wouldn't it be therefore equally rdue to tell Jane about POJA? After all, that's not what SHE WANTS is it?

No one is asking you to change your opinions. They are only suggesting that, had many posters not been so determined to so forcefully prove to him the error off his ways, he might have stayed around long enough to be convinced of it. No, no one forced him to leave, but, boy did they make it more inviting for him to do so.

Yeah...I'm pretty much done here. We're just rehashing the same postings over and over and over. I went back and read a few of your posts and they are all pretty much the same theme. I feel like I'm listening to a SNL Dana Carvey/Church Lady skit. Holy cow.............

Then you must have been pretty annoyed when Dr. Harley posted more of the same himself then, huh?

This is silly really.

As far as I know this MB site does not have a special message board just FOR adulterers to be told what they want to hear (for the same reason they don't have a bar at an AA meeting). No doubt if they served alcohol at AA meetings a LOT more drunks would come and STAY. I seriously doubt they'd get the help they need though...

I don't understand why you (1) keep bringing up the AA meetings analogy when no one else is interested in talking about it and (2) feel like you have to keep coming back to this thread and having the last word. Is there someone else out there you think you're going to convince?

fwiw, after Dr. Harley explained the likelihood of failure, he then proceeded to give him advice if he's determined to stay with her. So he took the high road to try to help him whether he would do the 'right thing' or not. If I was going to emulate Dr. Harley, I would choose to copy his tolerance and understanding of human nature.

Not me. I won't tolerate someone justifying the unjustifiable. I have been through my H having an A and no way in he(( will I tolerate that fogbabble.

Dr. H must. There would be no benefit to him to badmouth or run anyone off. He doesn't need to, anyways...he knows that that those of us who have BEEN THROUGH IT will not put up with this fog crap.

FWIW, meremortal is comparing this affair to AA and alcholism because THAT IS WHAT DR. H compares it to...an ADDICTION.

[This became sickening clear to me when my FWH said to me "it was weird...it was like an addiction", long before we ever even heard of MB or Dr. H. It's for real, the comparison between affairs and chemical addiction.

Oh, and my H knows something about this...he's been through a chemcial dependency program].