OMG

Talk about cherry picking what the good Dr said.

The good Dr offered him a 1% (ie ONE in a HUNDRED) chance of his relationship lasting 5 years. And if he doesn't face up to and OWN his previous relational mistakes he has even less than that.

He cannot separate his current problems from either his or his GF's view of marriage that clearly is NOT MONOGAMOUS.

WOW.

Actually, I wouldn't believe a single word this [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color](John) says about the way the children are treated. I wouldn't take his word for anything actually.

[color:"blue"][edited for TOS violation][/color]

That's exactly the point - he hasn't recognised it as adultery and he hasn't "truely realised" ANYTHING

And he likely never will, now, because we kept beating him over the head with how [color:"blue"] ******edit ******[/color] he was that he quit listening and left. At least Dr. Harley used decent language and no yelling with him. THAT is what I would learn from and emulate - that if you want someone to listen to you, you don't yell at the person.

John posted this:



Notice what John focuses on. "Making relationships work", regardless of how they came to be.

In all his reading and his "hundreds" of counseling sessions with Jane and Dr. Harley personally posting the why's and therefore's on Johns very first thread, he fails to recognize WHY his relationship is doomed to fail. John continues to search for SOMEONE to tell him what he wants to hear.


Well, no kidding. But John, you knew this from the start. You were infatuated with Jane, not her kids. You just could not SEE this through the FOG.

Here's the thing, by looking at the Who's Online section of this board, I was able to see that 'John' DID return and was reading this thread right after Dr. Harley posted...He chose not to post...Why? I would guess because no one told him what he wanted to hear...Including Dr. Harley!!! Dr. Harley predicted that 'John' would not listen...

This argument that 'John' was "run off" due to tone is just plain tired and ridiculous...'John' was NOT "beaten" with anything...He was told the truth and that is NOT what he wanted to hear...When and if he ever wants to hear the truth, he will remember that he heard it here and come back...Or he may choose to remain fogbound...People that truly want help will remain and get it, those that don't, will not...It really is that simple...

Mrs. W

"I realize that John needs to realize the impact of his affair in relation to his relationsip with Jane."

I agree.

"But I feel you are ONLY seeing what YOU want to see."

Like most unrepentent WS's John came here wanting only to hear how to keep his dying adultery alive. He is ONLY hearing what HE wants to hear. The difference of opinion is that you therefore think the posters here should either tell him what he wants to hear or keep quiet. But it doesn't matter what you think because you have no authority over the other posters here (and BTW your approach will not help John anyway).

"Dr. Harley HIMSELF, after giving John the verrrry slim odds, gave John the tools to work on his relationship with Jane using MB principals."

Dr. Harley did not object to what was being posted to John. In fact Dr. Harley stressed that we were telling him the truth that he needed to accept. Dr. Harley did not tell anyone to change their approach or to ONLY tell John what he wanted to hear.

John said he'd already read the concepts here, had already tried to get Jane interested in them (she wasn't). I think it would be a great idea for John to get counseling from Dr. Harley. Because I'm willing to bet that Dr. Harley would continue to try to tell John that his best bet is to try to reconcile with his BW; that the principles John wants to apply to his adultery would be more effectively employed restoring his marriage to his BW.

An assumption has been made that just because Dr. Harley ended his message to John with a brief statement that he would be willing to counsel John in an unlikely attempt to save his dying adultery, that we were not supposed to continue to tell John the truth, that we are supposed to ONLY post adultery-enabling stuff to him now. That assumption is not substantiated.

"That's good enough for me.

Then it's perfectly fine FOR YOU to continue to post adultery-enabling stuff to John I guess. I don't see how it bears any relevence on what others choose to post to John though... unless you imagine you DO have some sort of authority over the other posters here...

"Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away."

Nobody cast him away. He came here specifically for adultery-enabling support. But since this is not a pro-adultery site, he didn't get it (not from the majority of the responders anyway). So he left. He's not ready for this yet because he's still an active WS instead of a FWS.

"I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach."

Which is why you tried a very different approach I guess. BTW, I don't think your approach is the right one. But it really doesn't matter what we think of each other's apporaches does it. since neither of us has any authority over the other, right?

"If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?"

Dr. Harley certainly has the authority to lock the thread and/or to tell the posters what he thinks we can or cannot say to John. He didn't. MOST of Dr. Harley's post was confirming what we had said to John. That indicates that Dr. Harley didn't find anything wrong with our 'approach'. Why can you not accept that?

Dr. Harley himself said although he was willing to attempt to help John do it his way, it was doubtful it would work AND that the better choice would be to reconcile with his BW. Why can you not accept that?

The posters here are not under your authority and each can choose their own approach as long as the posting rules are not violated. Why can you not accept that?

(BTW, I have never before reported anything to the board administrators, but I will no longer tolerate other posters pretending I need their permission to post as I see fit. The board administrators have never had cause to delete anything I've ever posted, so I suggest those who feel an urge to censor my posts just trust in the administrators judgement. Future attempts to censor my posts by fellow posters who are not in a position of authority here will be reported.)

John - as you can see even here, at an internet site devoted to helping marriages recover from adultery, you will find some people who will condone adultery. But it seems you want two things that are rarely coexist, John:

You want a strong happy marriage

but you also want your adultery to continue

Please consider carefully the extremely low odds that an adultery even results in marriage, then how few of those marriages last more than a few years, and then how likely that those that last are 'good' marriages.

Your adultery is dying. You want/need desperately to get it back to the stage when it was all fun, romance, and excitement. That's a high that has already left the building. As with any addiction all you are left with now is having to get that next fix just to feel OK, let alone happy. You probably can't imagine how you're going to make it if you can't somehow get the adultery back to that beginning stage. You can't. And the sooner you realize that the less torture you'll put yourself through. Withdrawal will be tough for you but there are many folks here who can support you through that. If you can manage to totally stay away from Jane for at least 3 weeks you will be through the worst of it. After another 6 months of withdrawal and no contact with Jane you will be able to see her and the adulterous relationship clearly for the first time. THEN you will be in a position to make a healthy, addiction-free decision.

I sincerely hope you do schedule an appointment with Dr. Harley. The Harley's are experts in dealing with addictions and can help you get through this.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

^^ amen to that.

That is absolutely NOT what has been said. No one has tried to say that adultery should be condoned, you are reading your own message into what others have said. What they have said is that, to get him to be more amenable to your message and to possibly respond to it and accept it and leave Jane, you could have given your message in different, less righteous words. That is all.

That is hardly condoning adultery. That is considering human nature to not want to be yelled at and to refuse to listen when being yelled at. That is suggesting that we can continue to posit the message that his relationship is doomed, but we could do it in a method that tells him we have his best interests at heart for doing so. That is all.

"to get him to be more amenable to your message and to possibly respond to it and accept it and leave Jane, you could have given your message in different, less righteous words. That is all."

That is your belief, which BTW I believe to be a less effective way to deal with an active adulterer than my approach. And ANYWAY (BTW my use of caps is always to signify the importance of key words - not 'yelling') you are not in a position of authority over me or any other poster here, so your opinion is not only inaccurate, but also totally irrelevent AND unwelcome.

"That is hardly condoning adultery."

There were posts that basically said since John doesn't want to stop his adultery, that's not what he wants to hear, then we should tell him how to try to keep his adultery going.

"That is considering human nature to not want to be yelled at and to refuse to listen when being yelled at."

I never 'yelled at' John. Your false accusations against me will be reported to the mods if you keep it up.

"That is suggesting that we can continue to posit the message that his relationship is doomed, but we could do it in a method that tells him we have his best interests at heart for doing so. That is all."

That is untrue.

First of all it is untrue because posters WERE being told that they should not have told John that his adultery was wrong and doomed! Posters have been 'hammered' with unwelcome advice to not mention John's adultery anymore but instead to ONLY give him support in trying to resuscitate his mostly-dead adultery.

Secondly, it's untrue because the posters that were telling John to stop the adultery WERE doing so because they did have John's best interest at heart. Dr. Harley confirmed that BTW.

BTW, your 'hammering' me with your advice on my posting 'approach' is unwelcome. You claim that it's wrong to tell John something he doesn't want to hear, that doing so drove him away; then you persist in posting unwelcome advice to me...

The theory is since John did not specifically ask for advice in how to reconcile with his BW, that his only purpose for posting here was to try to keep his adultery going, then posting anything other than what he wanted to hear was therefore rude, right?

Well, just so you know: MY purpose for coming to MB's was to help stop adultery and to assist the recovery from the effects it's had on my family and others. I did NOT come here asking for advice on my posting style. PLEASE read the preceding sentence over and over again until you finally get it! Therefore, if you go by the theory you seem to subscribe to, offering me UNWANTED advice about my posting style is wrong (and maybe even rude).

If YOU believe telling another poster something they most certainly did not ask to hear will result in that poster leaving the board, then what does that say about your motive for persisting in posting advice to me that I did not ask for?

BTW, since Jane has certainly made it clear that she is not interested in POJA, according to the above theory, wouldn't it also be unwelcome advice, a 'bad' thing to do, for John to persist in trying to teach Jane about POJA? Oh, and it doesn't sound as if Jane's kids have asked John for his advice or opinion about their discipline either. For that matter it's apparent that neither Jane or her X-husband, the actual father of those kids, asked John for parenting advice. So how is it even appropriate, according to the theory you claim to believe in, for John to attempt to impose his parenting beliefs onto those children?

QUOTE:
you are not in a position of authority over me or any other poster here, so your opinion is not only inaccurate, but also totally irrelevent AND unwelcome.



What?!!!?? And who are YOU to say other poster's opinions are innacurate?! You are truly the pot calling the kettle black. Unbelieveable.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

How can an opinion ever be inaccurate?

AGG

[color:"blue"]
MB Members:

Just a friendly reminder to keep it respectful.

The Harley's thank you.[/color]