I guess what I'm confused about more than anything (and I don't know that I've run across discussion about this yet on the forum) is that my W has admitted to the EA, doesn't deny it at all now. She even claims that she will consider backing off the OM while she figures things out (although of course I don't believe that). I'll find out more when she comes home tonight and we talk....but I don't know if my approach should be different in any way due to the fact that it's all on the table and she's not denying anything. She admits now (which she wouldn't before) that she needs some counseling to figure herself out. It's almost as if she's waking up just a bit and starting to question her actions.

But, her feeling right now is that (and she's said this word for word) she is not in love with me....although she "loves me and cares for me". She claims she IS in love with him in a way that is totally different from anything she's EVER felt for me. W also says she's felt this way for a year or two since they started working together and if OM's marriage had ended before our wedding that she probably wouldn't have gone through with our marriage.

All of that is what keeps me from being 100% confident we can work things out. I think she's just blowing smoke up my a$$ and I know she's foggy, but that is still disconcerting to hear b/c there is a small possibility that it really is true, right?

She seems more willing to re-think her EA but still won't commit to working on our marriage.....only working on herself right now. That's where I'm confused. I feel like I've sort of got her on the ropes a bit, but not sure how to deliver the knock-out punch!

Just wondering if this specific situation changes my scenario at all.....any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated!

Thanks all!
ILA

"But, her feeling right now is that (and she's said this word for word) she is not in love with me....although she "loves me and cares for me". She claims she IS in love with him in a way that is totally different from anything she's EVER felt for me."

She is just babbling like they all do. She is under the influence of chemicals from being infatuated. Expose the affair to the OM's wife.

Wow, what a HORRIBLE day! I finally discovered the PA that goes with my previously discovered EA 2 days ago. I feel like sh*t.

While W was napping on the couch this afternoon and we just happened to both be home, I was in the process of emailing the OMW to ask her to call me so I could expose the EA. W's cell phone got a text and I decided to snoop. Got the last 40 texts between her and OM and it was disqusting. "don't worry baby, it'll be over soon and we can live our lives together"; "soon I'll be taking his place in your bed";"i love you so much"; "we've been meant to be together forever", and many other sexual texts. I wanted to puke.

I immediatly woke up W and told her to pack her sh*t and get out. She confirmed she was sleeping with OM and said it had been for 2 weeks (of course probably more). I spent the 5 minutes while she was packing some clothes to ride her up one side and down the other about what she'd done. She stared right through me, said nothing, and just left. Of course I lost it soon after.

You guys were right, I thought that b/c she confessed to the EA and promised there was no PA that she was being honest....how wrong was I and how right were you all! I just feel completely run over right now.

I immediately starting calling W's family and friends and letting them know (I haven't ever met any of my own friends since moving here....ALL my friends are her family and friends.......but they are all 100% in my corner on this and have been absolutely unbelievable in their support for me). W has pretty much come to avoid most of them b/c she can't tell them the truth.

Anyway, I immediatly called and confronted OM for the first time. It went ok and was pretty civil overall. He claims he's offered to back away if needed (which is what my W claimed too), but said that W convinced him that she told me how she felt and wanted to continue their affair and in their minds that's it. He didn't feel remorse or guilt he said b/c "she came to him" and "they only did this after W had told me how she feels" (which I don't believe...the feelings have definitely been there longer.

All W's family and friends are distraught as I am and really pissed off. They really do love me too and think she's screwing up her life.

I also got a call back from OMW but couldn't talk right away. As soon as she got my email she knew what it was about as she, too, had wondered about these two having an affair. I told OMW I would call back in an hour and when I got home I had message from OM threatening everything short of my life. His W had called to confront him and his 3 yr. old daughter was crying in the background. He said I had better never drag his daughter into this or he'd make my life a living ******, etc.

I immediatly called back OM and confronted him. After a minute or so of yelling, I calmed him down by explaining I'd never dream of hurting his family, but also explained that all of that was his own doing. Talked for 15 minutes and I really explained to him how I felt about my W and how much I was willing to fight for her. I told him to put him self in my shoes and he really started to hear what I was saying. He told me he could respect what I was doing and why, but that he wasn't going to back off. He claims they are madly in love, he is through his marriage (although they are just now filing for divorce) and he claims my W has told me how she feels and thus she is over her marriage as well. That's pretty much where we left it.....a civil man-to-man talk if you will (which amazes me I can do right now).

I then still called OMW back and we had a great talk for an hour.....of course everything that she had heard from her H was almost word for word what my W told me. OMW couldn't believe the similarities. Found out OM moved out of the house to his parents 4 weeks ago....which coincides with my W starting to break news to me (although it was just about being "unhappy" and blaming me at the time).

I don't know if the info. I've read from Dr. Harley fully addresses this next point (at least not that I've noticed)?

W insists that she is no longer in love with me, insists that she's had feelings for OM for quite some time (before we were married), and if OM was single then that we wouldn't have probably never gotten married. Although she initially tried to pin "our" problems on me, it's clear that she was already down the affair path and was trying to validate her affair by blaming me. They both INSIST that thier affair is not at all related to my marital problems (and OMW said she heard exact same thing from her H).

The thing that makes me lose all hope is that all the A's are out in the open now, nobody denies them. But, both W and OM feel that they are completely in love and meant for each other (and have felt this way for a long time). I believe that they do feel this way. All my W has been able to tell me in 4 weeks is that she's not in love with me. She really honestly believes it and I can't do ANYTHING to make her think otherwise.

I know she's not in-love with me right now and I know why and I understand all that rhetoric, but is it possible that the feeling is gone for good? Especially given how convinced they are that they want to be together and aren't even denying the affair to either of their spouses? I do know, in assessing the past, that they certainly HAVE had feelings for each other for a long time. I know nothing is certain, but these two are now so out in the open and they still don't feel any regret for what they are doing. Neither of them care about the fallout, neither of them are feeling guilty nor do they want to commit to working on their marriage....is it possible we'll never recover from this? That's the way I feel right now.....just don't even see any hope at this point.

You're likely in for a longer ride ILA, since both A partners are out of their homes now. Kicking your W out was not really MB 101 but I completely understand. I don't see any kids in your list, its good you don't have custody issues and such to deal with, but bad in that children are a powerful bond that you and your WW don't have.

What do you want to do? You can do Plan A to the best of your ability with her gone. Plan A is harder on you personally but imo might be the better option if you can really do it right for a bit. I am a little concerned as you seem to have a hard time controlling your emotions around her (understandable, just some are better at being "cool" than others).

Or you can go straight into a dark Plan B and allow (and hope) the A crumbles under its own weight. Its likely it will eventually, but from what I've been reading it seems that once they're out of the house chances are you can expect a much longer A. At least with Plan B once you get into it it isn't so hard on you personally. Good job exposing to OMW! The fact that he has a daughter is a good thing, as he at least has a powerful draw back to his family. I would suggest introducing her to MB and have her post here.

Sorry you find yourself here ILA. You need to really think about what you want, and really study and understand the plans here. They do work, but you have to be able to do them and control your emotions. ACT don't react!

ILA,

I'll be blunt. You've been married a short amount of time. You have no children. I would give both those factors considerable weight when evaluating the future of this marriage. Once you have kids this mess is so much worse.

Recovering from this is a hard business. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. If you want to try to recover then get your wife home. Separation seldom helps marriages, especially when the affair is active.

Keep in contact with the OMW. She is going to be your best ally now.

Exposure just happened. You have to give it a while to settle down and show it's effect.

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience as you go through this process. Work on your plan A improvements and then decide whether you still want this M or not.

As for their babble, know that Ws' babble about a lot of things, so make it your aim to learn how to tell between babble vs true talking.

Btw, get into some good MC. Call Jennifer @ MB for some phone counseling. Read the books Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs (both by Dr. Harley), then take the EN questionnaire (located above).

Jennifer will help you with a good plan for your personal recovery then M recovery (if your W decides to rejoin your family).

take care,
L.

You have been married for only 6 months. You may wish to contact an attorney and see about an annulment.

I am no expert, and, my opinion may be worth only a load of sh*t, since I am a FWW myself (and completely out of my fog now, thank you...), but I'd like to offer a few pointers from my POV...

I know there are people around here that think that because you've been married a short amount of time and have no kids that this is extremely detrimental to your chances of recovery. I am/was in the same boat. I argue that no kids gives you more time to FOCUS on recovering your marriage, rather than having to run to soccer practice, etc. We all know that kids can sometimes actually come between a marriage just because of the demands of taking care of them lets your focus slide away from the marriage. I do understand that they can be a powerful bond and a reason to really "try" to keep the marriage together though. I see both points of view, I guess what I'm trying to say is that no kids isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, in my book... your marriage may have been short, but like mine, you've been together a long time (we've been married 2.5 years, my A started after we were married 1 year, and lasted a little less than a year... ugh. Makes me sick to think about now...). We were together for 6 years before we got married. Lived together for 2 years of that. So, you do have that history also....

I would invite her back home, and read up on plan A. If she chooses NOT to come home, DO NOT make it EASY for her to move out. IE- do not give her money, do not give her furniture, etc etc. Let her make it on her own. In my experience, it IS easier to continue the A if they are out of the house. If you cannot let her back home and do a good plan A, I'd maybe go plan B for now. Waffling in plan A and LB'ing in-between isn't good. All the LB will just give her more reasons in her head to keep doing what she is doing and keep thinking the misguided thoughts (from my experience... this is what I did... how I justified it in my head... my poor hubby had no knowledge of this site at the time... see how lucky you have it!)

Exposure is a good idea. Keep up with the exposure. Good job there!

Oh-- and ignore her fog babble. I said the same [censored]. And you know what, I honestly don't know where in God's green earth that crap came from now-- because I feel like some other person said it and not me. I was so totally blinded. And stupid. As hard as it is, ignore it. DO NOT LET IT GET YOU DOWN or change your plan. I can almost guarantee you that it's not "true". She's saying the same crap EVERY WS says-- myself included. And my situation wasn't so "special"-- even though I thought it was at the time-- I thought I was the only one to ever feel that way-- ugh. Hard as it is, ignore it. See some of Orchid's reverse babble. It helps-- it helps you with responses that do not LB as much as it helps "shut them up". And yes, I did pull the whole "I wouldn't have married you if..." line too. Stupid. Not true-- even though I thought it was at the time. I was just an idiot talking stupid.

Ask her out on a date-- read up on plan A, invite her back home. If you want this, fight for it.

Good luck. Its not going to be easy, but I'm living proof you can wake up. It happens. I'm just hoping it wasn't too late for me or my marriage....

RIM

Thanks for the tips. I feel so bad right now...I'm physically sick from all of this and haven't eaten in almost 2 days. I'm a wreck! Trying to focus on work but it just isn't happening. I can't sleep, can't do anything....all I want to do is call people and talk (which unfortunately keeps me dwelling on it....but always makes me feel better too.) As I mentioned, most everyone I talk to is HER family and friends and they fully support me.

RIM, I really feel you understand where I'm coming from....great stuff, thank you! I didn't think about how kicking her out would hurt things....guess I wasn't clear at the time. She hasn't WANTED to be at home for the last 4 weeks since this came up. Her Aunt & Uncle were taking her in (which is common...she lived w/ them when we first met too). But, they didn't know what was going on and were away on vacation the last 2 weeks. I finally exposed all to her Aunt last night (very strong woman). She told me how impressed she was with my understanding of things and the clarity I seemed to have through this...she said she was so proud of me how I'm handling things. I know she will talk to my W and if anyone can make a dent it might be her. I told W 2 nights ago that she's welcome to be at home and I WANT her to be at home. If she wasn't ready to work on US that was ok, if she was ready then even better. But I also said that I wasn't sure if I could live with her being under our roof if she's in an admitted afair with OM. (maybe that was wrong thing to say).

One of you mentioned my inabilty to control my emotions.....I have to tell you that yesterday was the first time I've EVER yelled at my wife in 5 1/2 years. Even through all of this we have very civil, very adult conversatons without flying off the handle....we've always been that way (which is part of why I thought everything was great when really we didn't know how to communicate properly!). Anyway, finding out the way I did and reading the messages and the utter disrespect for me from both of them.....I just blew up. It might mean the end of me, or it might make her really see how hurt I am by it and how wrong it is....only time will tell how that pans out.

I guess that I could try to get her to come home, affair or not, while I work out plan A.....but I know she doesn't want to be there right now. She only wants to be with him.

The biggest problem is all of our finances and property are joint (except some credit cards in individual names). It takes all of her and my money to pay for our mortgage, bills, etc. She wants to get an apartment by herself (yeah right), but WE can't afford it. We can't sell our house right now b/c of the market without taking a $100k hit. Feels like we are stuck financially and i just don't know how that's going to play out and/or impact things.

It's so clear that she and OM are in the deep, deep fog. I just don't know if there's any way to bust her out of it. This is what she's done her whole life due to her childhood problems. She gets to a big crossroad in her life (just married, ready for children), gets scared, and runs away from it, in the meantime building a huge defensive wall around her emotions. Unfortunately in this case she's been able to run to someone she's had feelings for for a while and is in the same situation. I understand from W's sister that she used to get caught up in all the drama of things in her past marriage and boyfriends, etc....like playing High School games. Sister said she hated that side of my W and since we'd been together that person was gone. Sister says now she feels that's what W is regressing to and it makes sense. Everything about the affair, all the text messages....it's all the drama. They are talking to each other like it's a cheap, dime-store, romance novel or an erotic book. She's so lost in that drama and fantasy that she's been sucked into the affair and out of our marriage. Unfortunately, since this is a regression to her past behavior and it does hinge on a lot of her past personal issues.........I don't know if I can get the fog to lift.

Is there anything else I can do besides exposure, working on myself (although with her being gone it may not be noticed) or even going to plan B? Can I really go to plan B just a few days after d-day???

Man this sucks [censored]. I feel so hopeless b/c she doesn't WANT to be home and doesn't WANT to work on anything about US. She is convinced she wants to be with him and only him. And he is convinced of the same. How can we get her to see the light??????

A lot of venting, I know....but thanks for listening and helping....it means a lot!

ILA

((((((((((ILA))))))))))

Hang in there, ILA! I remember so clearly what you are feeling.

And like you I was demonized by Mr. Gray and Slag. I was turned into an object of ridicule. I didn't even merit being called by my name in their correspondence, just an initial. OWH got called by his name, though.

It's not fair at all but they are aliens. For me, eventually I just came to grips with the fact that they had to do that to make themselves feel better about their disgusting behavior.

I knew this intuitively but it was everyone here that kept drumming it into my head that really helped to confirm it for me.

In my case...I thought, gee, what in the world would they have to talk about if I wasn't around?

Now I'm not...so who knows?

I know this hurts soooooo bad. It's hard to do anything and your mind is just reeling with all of it. Try deep breathing...it can help. I had to force myself to do that a lot in the beginning to try and slow down my heart. It kept beating too fast and it hurt when it was beating like that all of the time.

I can see now that it was the fight or flight instinct. But you never think about something like that when you are in the middle of it.

Keep posting here and we will help talk you through. I'm glad you are exposing to your family and hers.

I told no one at first, then I told my sister and my doctor. I swore my sister to secrecy. I was ashamed and it took a little while to realize the shame didn't belong to me.

Thanks to MB and everyone here...I was finally able to break free.

You are in the right place here.

Take care, ILA!

Charlotte

And please try to get something in your stomach, ILA! Drink some clear chicken broth or something. Don't let your body be deprived of food. I came within a hairsbreadth of having Mr. Gray take me to the hospital or call 911. It would have probably had to be 911...it was REALLY close!

All because I couldn't eat, food just wasn't worth it. I really depleted my system and I was incredibly lucky that it didn't shut down on me.

So please, take care of yourself!!!

Thanks C22! It's funny, in the past I would have been so ashamed of this and wouldn't want anyone to know....but since this first came up 4 weeks ago I find myself running to tell everyone I can my WHOLE story. I guess that's how I KNOW that I love my W. I've already grown a lot personally in just 4 weeks, but it does seem hopeless right now.

I just want the fog to lift so bad b/c I know this isn't my W....this is some imposter.

I appreciate the well wishes.

Since I kicked out the W yesterday and she doesn't WANT to be home anyway....does that mean I pretty much jump to plan B after just a few days? She won't be around to see plan A right??

I know I have to be patient....I'm just a 'fixer'. I have to find a solution and i can't rest until I do...that's one of my unfortunate vices!

Just curious

Now your above post is telling, ILA. In a good way since it helps us understand the angle you are coming from.

You are the primary giver in your M? Have you always been? Take a good look at your R history with your W, is has she always displayed a taker role? The WS exaggerates the taker role to the point it becomes selfish at all costs.

Based on the above, here are my suggestions. Please realize these are only my suggestions so you need to take what you can work with and feel free to discard the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (note: I had to add in the last sentence because some who also post here don't say my suggestions are more like telling people what to do and I don't want you to get the wrong impression).

1. Enter Plan B when your mind and heart are in sync. Plan B is usually done with a letter and a 3rd party contact. This helps the BS from receiving the direct hits from the WS. WS' tend not to be as forceful on a 3rd party. They tend to be like children who will have a tantrum on person but hold back on another adult.

You can do research on plan B letters. There are several on here.

2. Please read up on Plans A & B before implementing plan B. The book Surviving an Affair has good info. Another Harley book is His Needs/Her Needs. This books discusses how to communicate between men vs women. Very interesting. Also take the Emotional Needs questionnaire (located above). Then if you can call Steve @ MB for some phone counseling. He is worth the $$. If not, get a good MC in your area familiar with MB concepts. Those were my requirements before I could have a phone counseling session with him.

3. Once you understand plans A & B, implement it in order.

There you now have a plan to get started. It will require reading and an honest evaluation of yourself. In the meantime, stay away from the WS but learn to interact when you real wife's character shows up. Keep communication down to a minimum and let her come to you, then you control when and how she communicates with you. The WS' will accuse you of many things. Learn to differentiate between the WS vs your W.


There are other tools you can use but first it may be better to work on plan A 1st.

Finally, pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. Take the good out of the posts here and discard what won't work for you.

Welcome to the rollercoaster. We haven't used that term in a while but it still fits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Thank you so much. I understand your points and they sound very logical to me. I really haven't been able to decide on contacting her, asking her to live at home, etc. If you think I need to let her come to me when the time is right then I can sure buy into that.

In the meantime, I've been activly trying to do plan A things (or so I feel) but don't have the "surviving" book yet (hopefully it arrives today) so I don't fully understand plan A & B completely.

In the meantime, I'm continuing to expose her to everyone I can think of.

And, overall I'd say Yes, I probably have been more of the giver and her more of the taker.....I think that's just our personalities and maybe some of her defenses from past problems. But yes, I think you're correct in that assessment.

2 Q's:
- can you "over expose".....is that possible that you do so much harm you can't recover from her hatred??

- is there any use trying to get W to read these books in the state she's in? I think I had her convinced to at least read HNHN.....but then 30 minutes later I discovered the PA, blew up and kicked her out......of course she didn't take the book with her!

She's an intelligent person and loves to read things like this and I really believe it MIGHT ?? make her re-think what she's doing just a little bit if she read it from experts instead of hearing it from me. Thoughts?

Thanks a ton!
ILA

Orchid: Not really. Just keep your reasons true and honest. You are fighting for your M. It has been invaded by a selfish virus and you need help removing it. That is pretty much how I presented it my supporters. I also let them know that due on going circumstances (things changing constantly), I was not able to tell all to all but appreciated their support. Then I also said I would respect their POV input and asked they respect my decisions. For the most part, I got that support.


Orchid: It usually isn't wise to ask a WS to read BS support material. That's like giving ammo to the enemy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yep, the WS will only try to twist it. Remember you are dealing with 2 different characters. I recommend you do your reading 1st, get in with Jennifer @ MB or a good MC in your area. If you want to read up before your books come, check out the concepts section at the top of this web page. It is very helpful.


Orchid: We have found that time is wasted trying to teach a WS t/b normal. So until that opportunity comes forth (where your W will want to learn instead of the WS trying to stop it), then keep this info to yourself, work on your plan A and move forward. That will give her a path to follow. Expect her to grumble (because WS' are lazy) but keep moving forward because you know these changes are good for you and your family.

take care,
L.

Thanks, Orhcid......you are very knowledgable! I will continue to work on my plan A techniques and hopefully the book will arrive today to help me fully understand the plans.

As hard as it is for me, I'll try to resist contacting WS and make her come to me. If she does, I'll try my best to control the convo. and only speak with her when she's in the right frame of mind.

In the meantime I'm going to keep exposing to everyone that W knows and cares about and hopefully they can give me some feedback about her state of mind if they happen to talk to her.

I must say....I don't expect her to contact me anytime soon....she's so lost and her and OM have been "counting the days" (per the text messages) until they can be together "at last". I want to puke!

As a matter of fact, I would fully expect her to run right out and file for D today if she can.....that's what they both want. I'm hoping some family can talk to her first and convince her to wait on the D until she can step back from things and really think about it.........but probably not likely. We'll see.

I know that she still has a few doubts in her mind. I can see her mind working even though her eyes are blank. I spent an hour the other night preaching to her that she needs to consider her future (after affirming that I'm not telling her she's not in love with him nor that she's not in love with me... "I'm not calling you a liar" basically) I brought up points about love vs. in-love and running from stability into chaos and instability, etc,etc. I think I made a lot of good points and did it well, but she had the fence up and stared right through me. Nonetheless, the text messages I discovered the next day from OM (proof of PA) answered those types of questions...."don't worry what he says, I'll never leave you", etc.,etc. So, I know bits and pieces of what I say penetrate her cloudy mind. Is that cause for optimism or not? When I see any shred of that (statements of wanting to work on HER (not our) problems, tears, etc.), although VERY few and far between, I almost feel like I need to jump at the opportunity and try to make headway or she will drift further away. I feel like "this is my chance, she's vulnerable". Is this crazy talk on my part? Do I just need to leave well enough alone b/c I may be hurting my cause?

You are doing good. Hard to see but from what I have witnessed, you are doing ok.

Now what is working in your favor is this:

WS' are basically a lazy bunch. They don't want to be the one's t/d the D work. So they will put their effort into goading the BS into enabling the A, filing for the D and handing over all you have to them for their destruction.

Now that you know this, use this to your advantage. Once you regain control of yourself, you will be able to use this knowledge to twist the life out of the A.

One of the tools I have used is reverse babble. This is where you can give the WS back their guilt. Example:

WS: You need to file for a D. I don't love you enough anymore.

BS: Really? Ok, let me know when you are done filing for the D.

WS: (not really paying attention to your RB, thinks you have just agreed to file the D <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).... Well I also need you to pay for my lawyer. He is expensive but I need him to make sure I win.

BS: Really? You can pay for both our lawyers. That's quite generous from you. Where will you get that $$? From OM?

NOTE: Eventually it will hit her but there will be enough time for you to get away and regroup your thoughts. It is quite draining to deal with a WS

L.

I never would have thought that she'd be lazy to file for D. She claims early on that she'd already considered and/or looked in to filing for annullment (in which she would fail miserably) and she's talked about everything we'd do in the event of a D (house/bills/etc). You really think she would not file???

I figured especially since OM is ready right now to file for his D (has lawyer, etc.) and since they both want this so bad that he'd probably talk her into it/help her out with it.

Also, I read Trueheart's letter.........very well put! I'm assuming there's no way it would help to have her read that now...but I thought I might give that to her family /friends to which I'm exposing so they can "see exactly what she's going through" and might understand how to approach her better. I tell everyone the info. that's in the letter....and it's 98% applicable to our situation....but it's always easier to grasp when you read it rather than hear it from the BS I figure.

Thoughts?

Another question: does anyone have statistical data on approx. how many A's (after exposure) are able to avoid divorce/lead to reconciliation of M ?

How about when A is out in the open and both S and OP STILL don't want to reconcile (my current situation)??

Just curious what I'm in for!