Hello all! I hope I can get some good advice from you all as I am experiencing problems for the first time and never thought I'd ever be int this situation. I just stumbled upon this website by accident a few days ago and was immediately blown away by the content. I immediately ordered several of the books and am anxiously awaiting the delivery of them. This is my first trip to the forum but in reading several entries, I already have renewed confidence simply in knowing how common my situation is and how it CAN be remedied. Here goes:

My loving W (32) and I (34) have lived together for 5-1/2 years and were just married 6 months ago (my 1st/her 2nd). Everything in my mind was absolutely terrific throughout and I was confident of the same feelings from her. Overall, the feeling of Love and Devotion seemed unmatachable and I was convinced that it would solve any problems that may come. We have rarely fought about things, which I know understand has NOT been healthy as our communication has been broken for a long time (although I though otherwise). Reading content on this website has helped me to understand this.

4 weeks ago I was informed by W that things were not good...she was unhappy with things and very concerned. I agreed things had been poor over the last month or two as we were both buried with stresses from work/school/physical problems/etc. Like every other instance I felt this would work itself out and we'd be fine. A few days later I heard comments of "I don't feel comfortable having kids now" (which we have mutually agreed is our next big step...and soon), "I love you but no longer feel IN love w/ you", "I don't trust you", etc.

At this point the red flag went up for me, but I was still 100% blindsided by this. Talk of divorce soon followed, all the time with me asking why?,how?, why so soon after Marriage?, etc.

I finally came to understand all the reasons for her fears, displeasure, trust issues, etc. and became aware that I'd taken some things for granted and not addressed her issues properly in the past....but I didn't know (improper communication). Of course her Love Bank was quickly nearing depletion for a long time. I heard talk of not feeling in love for 1 or 2 years and even that she regrets getting married. All have blown me away.

W has lots of past issues with divorced (later to come out of closet) father, then growing up with addictive step father, poor 1st marriage at 18, poor relationships prior to me. I soon started focusing on these issues and began to "understand" how we got here and what was causing everything.

Only after reading chap. 1 of Dr. Haley's book addressing A's did I realize an A was much of the problem. I had worries about a possible PA with W's co-worker (fellow teacher) as they were very good friends and he is also in the midst of breakup/impnding divorce filing with his W. My W told me there was "nothing going on", "just very good frineds",etc. and I believed her in regard to PA. I never even understood the concept of an EA until this website, but quickly understood that an EA was occurring. I then checked cell phone record to back this up...2500 text messages in 12 days with 90% to OP plus numerous calls, etc. BTW, W and I are currently separated at her request for "time and space" (go figure). Her lack of wanting to talk about our issues or be at home, be around me, have any physical contact, etc. was alarming and confusing until realizing the EA was present. OP was clearly replaicng me in terms of providing EN's.

Finally talked W into 1st couples thereapy appt. yesterday and confronted W with possible EA on the way to appt. Appt. went well and got through to W on past emotional issues she needs to deal with, but W is still reluctant to work on "us". After appt. she told me I was correct in my suggestion of EA (don't know if SHE had realized it up to that point). I asked if she was "in love" with OP and she said YES (ouch). W still insists that she's not in-love w/ me although she loves and cares deeply....more as "friends" though. Also claims that feelings for OP (supposedly greater than she ever had for me, though I can't believe that) have been around for long time and had OP's marriage been ending before our wedding, "we never whould have gotten married". I don't know how much of that is "real" feelings for OP and is true vs. current circumstancial feelings?

Anyway, all cards are on the table. W and I are extremely civil about things, discuss situation, even now fully understand where we are and how each other feels.

I have been working on MY issues since the day problems arose and W has been openly appreciative of the efforts but insists it "doesn't matter" or is "too late".

Good thing is ALL of W's family and friends are on my side. Everyone loves us both and is equally blown away by this situation....they all thought our relationship was incredibly strong (as did I).

W said nobody knows about EA and OPW doesn't know yet either. I have told W's sister who is easily the #1 confidant of W (but W has recently distanced from due to the situation, guilt, etc.). I've also told my family and another of W's friends, but that's it so far.

I can't decide how many people to tell but have read the posts to get ideas (thank you all!).

I'm just not sure of the next step. As noted, the EA is exposed to W and we both acknowledge it. W did accept that she may have to pull back from OP until she gets some personal counseling to deal with "her" past issues....but I'm not convinced she will be able to do that. She is NOT willing to work directly on US yet......only accepting to work on "her" and maybe withdraw from OP a bit.

I hope that working on "her" will show her the way to accepting/continuing work on "us", but who knows.

I want to talk to OP and/or OPW as I know them both fairly well and think they would both be receptive to my feelings...but am worried about the LB possibility. W is very stubborn and due to past is prone to never giving a man a 2nd chance....so I don't want to do anything to drive her away for good.

Any suggestions???? Should I talk to OP/OPW; talk to other key family members (as I know they will be in my corner but could also create huge LB)?

I feel like I'm already well into plan A (without even knowing about plan A&B !) Part of me thinks that in our particular circumstance, if it came to plan B then it will never work b/c wife just would never look back.

I feel like now is the critical time but I understand I can't fix all the problems either and need to step back a bit. Only W will be able to save things if she becomes willing to leave OP and work on US.....but it's difficult to sit back and do nothing.

Thanks in advance for any comments and for taking time to be interested in my situation. I never thought in a million years I'd be in this spot, but am 100% dedicated to saving the marriage and keeping the most important person in my life!

Thank you!!!
ILA

The first thing you need to do is expose it to the other man's wife. That may derail the affair.

I tend to feel the same. OMW actually initiated their breakup (so I understand) but now wants to work on things. In the meantime, OM is ready to file for divorce (probably at the urging of my W!).

So, OMW and I are in the similar place and OM and my W are in the similar place of an EA/wanting divorce/etc...although hopefully in the fog.

I still think that OM might actually tell his W though and maybe I should wait a day or two.

Good thing is that my W claims that OM has actually offered to back off so she and I can work things out....and OM doesn't want PA b/c of his child....don't know if this is all true as it comes from my W....but nonetheless it sounds positive. Part of me feels I can talk directly to OM as I think we respect each other, and given his supposed moral uncertainty, maybe I can talk HIM into backing off. I feel that's a possibility, but am not sure.....once again, I don't want to jump into the middle and create a LB that I can't recover from.

Thanks for the post!

I'd bet the farm that they are in a PA. Not that it would change your approach to saving the marriage, but realize that grownups rarely stop things at PA, especially once they separate from their spouses. In fact, that is usually why they are so eager to separate, to make the PA easier to carry on.

AGG

Tell his wife, and don't warn him or your wife.

You are foolish if you think that the OM does or would respect you. If he did, he would have backed off long ago.

I'm sure you are correct, Believer.....and thanks.

The EA only came up 24 hours ago and I haven't talked to W since....but she will be coming home tomorrow night and staying the night...she even offered it as a time to 'talk'. That is more than she's been willing to do for the last 4 weeks all the problems first started.

I sort of want to see what she says tomorrow first....maybe she will offer to pull back on her own, I don't know. Either way, I know I will have to Expose this to more people including OMW....but I almost want to let her do some if it for me.....if she's willing to. I'm seeing a few signs of promise that a few things might be cutting through the fog so I'm reluctant to get too aggressive just yet.

Did you see A Good Guy's post to you? There may already be a PA. That is why they often want "space", or "time to think".

I did see that and he's right that it still wouldn't change my approach.

I don't discount the possibility of a PA but if so, it's limited to 1 or 2 instances. W just had shoulder surgery and is staying at an aunt/uncles house right now while OMW is staying at his parents' during his separation. W has had lots of friends and family around her often so the "opportunity" hasn't come up too often, but either way I know it is a crucial time right now.

Expose to his wife, and his parents. Also expose to your wife's aunt and uncle. That is the way to end the affair. All the talking and counseling in the world won't help until the affair has ended.

You need to expose to their work also. But I would do the family first.

ILA, have you PERSONALLY spoken to the OMW yourself and told her of the affair? How do you know she knows?

Do you know for sure your W is with her aunt and uncle? And what makes you think she wouldn't contact the OM from there?

I see you have only been married for 6 months? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

6 MONTH marriage...your first..her second. She's already cheating. Bye, Bye.
I know you say you are dedicated to saving your marriage...but I would suggest that before you ever have a child with a known cheater, think about the ramifications.
If you already had kids..or you were married for years, I would give you different advice.
I would get the proof of her affair and send her packing...buy hey, that's just me.

See what she says tomorrow night, exposure is a powerful tool, and you probably will need to use it, but the more information you have before doing so the better. You understand Plan A? You need to identify and begin to meet as many of her primary needs as she will allow you too. Its unfortunate that she's already moved out, but you need to do what you can. NO MORE Lovebusters! If she wants to talk relationship, keep it positive, tell her you still believe in the marriage and have been learning about emotional affairs (do not at this point accuse her of a PA, allow her to think you accept her story for now, although I would be very sceptical of this claim) and think there is a program that would really help both of you find a way to be happy together. STAY positive, do not blow up! Along with those steps you will need to find a way to end the A and not further enable it. This is where exposure will come in. Be thinking of people that will be likely to be supportive of you and possibly influential on your WW. These are the people you will want to tell. This is a workplace A, it is possible you will have to expose to her work.

Realize that the whole "love you not in love with you" stuff and the rewriting of your marital history is just WS babble. Yes, she feels that way right now, but it is a justification for her behavior, she has convinced herself that things were worse than they were in order to feel justfied in her A. Its called "fogginess".

Lastly, you need to ask yourself if you REALLY want to be married, and why. You have not been married very long, and infidelity this early along with her past relationship issues are not a very good sign for the future. You don't have kids, you don't have alot of the ties that many well established marriages have that help hold them together through the devastation of infidelity. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't try to save this, I'm just saying that you are young, and what she has done is NOT going to be easy to recover from.

Sorry you find yourself here. Don't be afraid to ask questions, what you need to do is often counter-intuitive to what you WANT to do.

Thanks Tyk, I feel like those are some great suggestions. I've already continued today in exposing this to some key family members of the W and they are fully in my corner. Even my W acknowledges that every single family member and friend is going to hate her when they find out.....I guess that's good that W knows that. I'm going to try to expose this to her aunt after tomorrow, b/c I'm sure my W is spending all day talking to her aunt already (her aunt is a very strong person who I'm confident will be one of the best people to set her straight....I'm lucky that's who she's staying with). I feel like I really understand the situation and am on the right path, I know it will take time and hard work.

As for being married....yeah, I'm 100% sure I want to be married to my W and understand how hard this will be. She's an absolutely magnificent person and everything I've ever wanted in a spouse, I think she's just going through this for a lot of different reasons beyond her immediate control. I've now got her commited to getting 1 on 1 help with our couples counselor (counselor is VERY good and really got through to W....with just 1 question had her bawling about her father! Instant credibility there with my W). She also accepts that she "may" need to pull back from the OM too......I think these are all steps in the right direction. W can't see any reason to work on US yet, but I understand there's a process to getting her to believe in that.

Thanks for all the kind words (or affectively harsh as they may be!). Much appreciated!

If you want to stay married, I think you should...BUT, I would suggest raising your standards for what a wonderful person is.




I think sleeping with another person was in her immediate control. Do not allow her to shed the blame for her decisions.

Your key exposure target would be the OMW. Maybe their problems just happened after the EA developed. Maybe she has NO clue as to why her H is acting in such a fashion.
Once the cards are on the table, especially with a child involved, this OM will retreat. He doesn't want his W to know anything about his involvement with your W. when you speak to her, caution her about making "knee-jerk" decisions. Let her know that her immediate response if she decides to kick him out is premature. It would be unusual that she would put him out right away, what with a child and all. His immediate response most likely will be to grovel to get his W back. He is living in a fantasy that doesn't include another man raising his child. That hasn't come up in his mind just yet. If you don't expose to her, the A will drive further underground.. Don't let fear of what WW might do, as far as running to him, influence your decison to speak privately to his BS.
WW think that they are the world and all to their MM, in fact they aren't. Shorten the length of your misery and immediately inform his BS. Many men on this site wish they had done so sooner. By the way, Believer nailed it, this little girly man has no respect for you or your WW .

I do plan to expose to the OMW after I speak to my W tomorrow night (I just want to see how she's reacted over the last 48 hours since this A came out into the open). As for the OM, his wife originated the demise of their marriage by saying she wanted a divorce. For awhile they still lived together (supposedly for sake of the child), but I find out now that OMW wants to try to reconcile and OM is the one who wants to file for divorce (I'm sure this is due to OMW and my W's feelings for each other right now). He is no longer living at home either. Thus, I realize this is a critical time and I fully understand that OMW has to know.....I just want to wait 'till tomorrow to see if my W has changed her views in any way that may help me understand the picture more clearly.

Thanks!

Please, please, don't tell WW what you are about to do!!
Very, very important. Forewarned is forearmed! Pullin' for ya buddy. GF

Glad you told me that....b/c I probably would have, know on me!

We talked about it yesterday when the EA came out. I asked if OMW knew and my W said no....nobody else knew. But she said that OMW knew OM was seeing someone else (their marriage is much further gone than mine at this point b/c they are both giving up it seems), only OMW didn't know it was my W...."she will be really pissed about that" was my W's comment. So, since she knew that OMW was going to find out, I guess I figured I might tell her I was going to do it if OM didn't.............I'll heed your advice instead though

Thanks, I appreciate the support.

Yes, please do. And know that ALL waywards lie. I would promise you that OM has not uttered one word to his BS about an affair with anyone. Your WW is doing some damage control, so that you don't turn on the light and let the cockroaches out. As JMWC would say, it's time to "shine 100 million candle power" on this little A. Once you do this, the dynamic will change. More than likely he will tell his BS that your WW was the agressor, and that nothing happened. Be sure to clue your WW in on that once the shock dissipates. And, she will probably be really, really upset...but don't worry, it won't last... GF

It makes sense, to me, that OMW thinks her WH has asked for "space" and is in the dark about what is going on, entirely. I would be very surprised that the info your WW has on them is true. Again, waywards lie, like they breathe. She has the right to know what is going on in her marrriage, and you are her portal for that. She will become a good ally for you. Two sets of eyes. She will help you in the future. Hang in there and trust, if you must, but verify what ww is telling you. Keylogger, check cell phone
bills, put a recorder in her car, become a sleuth. Be sure...GF

I guess what I'm confused about more than anything (and I don't know that I've run across discussion about this yet on the forum) is that my W has admitted to the EA, doesn't deny it at all now. She even claims that she will consider backing off the OM while she figures things out (although of course I don't believe that). I'll find out more when she comes home tonight and we talk....but I don't know if my approach should be different in any way due to the fact that it's all on the table and she's not denying anything. She admits now (which she wouldn't before) that she needs some counseling to figure herself out. It's almost as if she's waking up just a bit and starting to question her actions.

But, her feeling right now is that (and she's said this word for word) she is not in love with me....although she "loves me and cares for me". She claims she IS in love with him in a way that is totally different from anything she's EVER felt for me. W also says she's felt this way for a year or two since they started working together and if OM's marriage had ended before our wedding that she probably wouldn't have gone through with our marriage.

All of that is what keeps me from being 100% confident we can work things out. I think she's just blowing smoke up my a$$ and I know she's foggy, but that is still disconcerting to hear b/c there is a small possibility that it really is true, right?

She seems more willing to re-think her EA but still won't commit to working on our marriage.....only working on herself right now. That's where I'm confused. I feel like I've sort of got her on the ropes a bit, but not sure how to deliver the knock-out punch!

Just wondering if this specific situation changes my scenario at all.....any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated!

Thanks all!
ILA

"But, her feeling right now is that (and she's said this word for word) she is not in love with me....although she "loves me and cares for me". She claims she IS in love with him in a way that is totally different from anything she's EVER felt for me."

She is just babbling like they all do. She is under the influence of chemicals from being infatuated. Expose the affair to the OM's wife.

Wow, what a HORRIBLE day! I finally discovered the PA that goes with my previously discovered EA 2 days ago. I feel like sh*t.

While W was napping on the couch this afternoon and we just happened to both be home, I was in the process of emailing the OMW to ask her to call me so I could expose the EA. W's cell phone got a text and I decided to snoop. Got the last 40 texts between her and OM and it was disqusting. "don't worry baby, it'll be over soon and we can live our lives together"; "soon I'll be taking his place in your bed";"i love you so much"; "we've been meant to be together forever", and many other sexual texts. I wanted to puke.

I immediatly woke up W and told her to pack her sh*t and get out. She confirmed she was sleeping with OM and said it had been for 2 weeks (of course probably more). I spent the 5 minutes while she was packing some clothes to ride her up one side and down the other about what she'd done. She stared right through me, said nothing, and just left. Of course I lost it soon after.

You guys were right, I thought that b/c she confessed to the EA and promised there was no PA that she was being honest....how wrong was I and how right were you all! I just feel completely run over right now.

I immediately starting calling W's family and friends and letting them know (I haven't ever met any of my own friends since moving here....ALL my friends are her family and friends.......but they are all 100% in my corner on this and have been absolutely unbelievable in their support for me). W has pretty much come to avoid most of them b/c she can't tell them the truth.

Anyway, I immediatly called and confronted OM for the first time. It went ok and was pretty civil overall. He claims he's offered to back away if needed (which is what my W claimed too), but said that W convinced him that she told me how she felt and wanted to continue their affair and in their minds that's it. He didn't feel remorse or guilt he said b/c "she came to him" and "they only did this after W had told me how she feels" (which I don't believe...the feelings have definitely been there longer.

All W's family and friends are distraught as I am and really pissed off. They really do love me too and think she's screwing up her life.

I also got a call back from OMW but couldn't talk right away. As soon as she got my email she knew what it was about as she, too, had wondered about these two having an affair. I told OMW I would call back in an hour and when I got home I had message from OM threatening everything short of my life. His W had called to confront him and his 3 yr. old daughter was crying in the background. He said I had better never drag his daughter into this or he'd make my life a living ******, etc.

I immediatly called back OM and confronted him. After a minute or so of yelling, I calmed him down by explaining I'd never dream of hurting his family, but also explained that all of that was his own doing. Talked for 15 minutes and I really explained to him how I felt about my W and how much I was willing to fight for her. I told him to put him self in my shoes and he really started to hear what I was saying. He told me he could respect what I was doing and why, but that he wasn't going to back off. He claims they are madly in love, he is through his marriage (although they are just now filing for divorce) and he claims my W has told me how she feels and thus she is over her marriage as well. That's pretty much where we left it.....a civil man-to-man talk if you will (which amazes me I can do right now).

I then still called OMW back and we had a great talk for an hour.....of course everything that she had heard from her H was almost word for word what my W told me. OMW couldn't believe the similarities. Found out OM moved out of the house to his parents 4 weeks ago....which coincides with my W starting to break news to me (although it was just about being "unhappy" and blaming me at the time).

I don't know if the info. I've read from Dr. Harley fully addresses this next point (at least not that I've noticed)?

W insists that she is no longer in love with me, insists that she's had feelings for OM for quite some time (before we were married), and if OM was single then that we wouldn't have probably never gotten married. Although she initially tried to pin "our" problems on me, it's clear that she was already down the affair path and was trying to validate her affair by blaming me. They both INSIST that thier affair is not at all related to my marital problems (and OMW said she heard exact same thing from her H).

The thing that makes me lose all hope is that all the A's are out in the open now, nobody denies them. But, both W and OM feel that they are completely in love and meant for each other (and have felt this way for a long time). I believe that they do feel this way. All my W has been able to tell me in 4 weeks is that she's not in love with me. She really honestly believes it and I can't do ANYTHING to make her think otherwise.

I know she's not in-love with me right now and I know why and I understand all that rhetoric, but is it possible that the feeling is gone for good? Especially given how convinced they are that they want to be together and aren't even denying the affair to either of their spouses? I do know, in assessing the past, that they certainly HAVE had feelings for each other for a long time. I know nothing is certain, but these two are now so out in the open and they still don't feel any regret for what they are doing. Neither of them care about the fallout, neither of them are feeling guilty nor do they want to commit to working on their marriage....is it possible we'll never recover from this? That's the way I feel right now.....just don't even see any hope at this point.

You're likely in for a longer ride ILA, since both A partners are out of their homes now. Kicking your W out was not really MB 101 but I completely understand. I don't see any kids in your list, its good you don't have custody issues and such to deal with, but bad in that children are a powerful bond that you and your WW don't have.

What do you want to do? You can do Plan A to the best of your ability with her gone. Plan A is harder on you personally but imo might be the better option if you can really do it right for a bit. I am a little concerned as you seem to have a hard time controlling your emotions around her (understandable, just some are better at being "cool" than others).

Or you can go straight into a dark Plan B and allow (and hope) the A crumbles under its own weight. Its likely it will eventually, but from what I've been reading it seems that once they're out of the house chances are you can expect a much longer A. At least with Plan B once you get into it it isn't so hard on you personally. Good job exposing to OMW! The fact that he has a daughter is a good thing, as he at least has a powerful draw back to his family. I would suggest introducing her to MB and have her post here.

Sorry you find yourself here ILA. You need to really think about what you want, and really study and understand the plans here. They do work, but you have to be able to do them and control your emotions. ACT don't react!

ILA,

I'll be blunt. You've been married a short amount of time. You have no children. I would give both those factors considerable weight when evaluating the future of this marriage. Once you have kids this mess is so much worse.

Recovering from this is a hard business. It is going to get much worse before it gets better. If you want to try to recover then get your wife home. Separation seldom helps marriages, especially when the affair is active.

Keep in contact with the OMW. She is going to be your best ally now.

Exposure just happened. You have to give it a while to settle down and show it's effect.

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience as you go through this process. Work on your plan A improvements and then decide whether you still want this M or not.

As for their babble, know that Ws' babble about a lot of things, so make it your aim to learn how to tell between babble vs true talking.

Btw, get into some good MC. Call Jennifer @ MB for some phone counseling. Read the books Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs (both by Dr. Harley), then take the EN questionnaire (located above).

Jennifer will help you with a good plan for your personal recovery then M recovery (if your W decides to rejoin your family).

take care,
L.

You have been married for only 6 months. You may wish to contact an attorney and see about an annulment.

I am no expert, and, my opinion may be worth only a load of sh*t, since I am a FWW myself (and completely out of my fog now, thank you...), but I'd like to offer a few pointers from my POV...

I know there are people around here that think that because you've been married a short amount of time and have no kids that this is extremely detrimental to your chances of recovery. I am/was in the same boat. I argue that no kids gives you more time to FOCUS on recovering your marriage, rather than having to run to soccer practice, etc. We all know that kids can sometimes actually come between a marriage just because of the demands of taking care of them lets your focus slide away from the marriage. I do understand that they can be a powerful bond and a reason to really "try" to keep the marriage together though. I see both points of view, I guess what I'm trying to say is that no kids isn't exactly the worst thing in the world, in my book... your marriage may have been short, but like mine, you've been together a long time (we've been married 2.5 years, my A started after we were married 1 year, and lasted a little less than a year... ugh. Makes me sick to think about now...). We were together for 6 years before we got married. Lived together for 2 years of that. So, you do have that history also....

I would invite her back home, and read up on plan A. If she chooses NOT to come home, DO NOT make it EASY for her to move out. IE- do not give her money, do not give her furniture, etc etc. Let her make it on her own. In my experience, it IS easier to continue the A if they are out of the house. If you cannot let her back home and do a good plan A, I'd maybe go plan B for now. Waffling in plan A and LB'ing in-between isn't good. All the LB will just give her more reasons in her head to keep doing what she is doing and keep thinking the misguided thoughts (from my experience... this is what I did... how I justified it in my head... my poor hubby had no knowledge of this site at the time... see how lucky you have it!)

Exposure is a good idea. Keep up with the exposure. Good job there!

Oh-- and ignore her fog babble. I said the same [censored]. And you know what, I honestly don't know where in God's green earth that crap came from now-- because I feel like some other person said it and not me. I was so totally blinded. And stupid. As hard as it is, ignore it. DO NOT LET IT GET YOU DOWN or change your plan. I can almost guarantee you that it's not "true". She's saying the same crap EVERY WS says-- myself included. And my situation wasn't so "special"-- even though I thought it was at the time-- I thought I was the only one to ever feel that way-- ugh. Hard as it is, ignore it. See some of Orchid's reverse babble. It helps-- it helps you with responses that do not LB as much as it helps "shut them up". And yes, I did pull the whole "I wouldn't have married you if..." line too. Stupid. Not true-- even though I thought it was at the time. I was just an idiot talking stupid.

Ask her out on a date-- read up on plan A, invite her back home. If you want this, fight for it.

Good luck. Its not going to be easy, but I'm living proof you can wake up. It happens. I'm just hoping it wasn't too late for me or my marriage....

RIM

Thanks for the tips. I feel so bad right now...I'm physically sick from all of this and haven't eaten in almost 2 days. I'm a wreck! Trying to focus on work but it just isn't happening. I can't sleep, can't do anything....all I want to do is call people and talk (which unfortunately keeps me dwelling on it....but always makes me feel better too.) As I mentioned, most everyone I talk to is HER family and friends and they fully support me.

RIM, I really feel you understand where I'm coming from....great stuff, thank you! I didn't think about how kicking her out would hurt things....guess I wasn't clear at the time. She hasn't WANTED to be at home for the last 4 weeks since this came up. Her Aunt & Uncle were taking her in (which is common...she lived w/ them when we first met too). But, they didn't know what was going on and were away on vacation the last 2 weeks. I finally exposed all to her Aunt last night (very strong woman). She told me how impressed she was with my understanding of things and the clarity I seemed to have through this...she said she was so proud of me how I'm handling things. I know she will talk to my W and if anyone can make a dent it might be her. I told W 2 nights ago that she's welcome to be at home and I WANT her to be at home. If she wasn't ready to work on US that was ok, if she was ready then even better. But I also said that I wasn't sure if I could live with her being under our roof if she's in an admitted afair with OM. (maybe that was wrong thing to say).

One of you mentioned my inabilty to control my emotions.....I have to tell you that yesterday was the first time I've EVER yelled at my wife in 5 1/2 years. Even through all of this we have very civil, very adult conversatons without flying off the handle....we've always been that way (which is part of why I thought everything was great when really we didn't know how to communicate properly!). Anyway, finding out the way I did and reading the messages and the utter disrespect for me from both of them.....I just blew up. It might mean the end of me, or it might make her really see how hurt I am by it and how wrong it is....only time will tell how that pans out.

I guess that I could try to get her to come home, affair or not, while I work out plan A.....but I know she doesn't want to be there right now. She only wants to be with him.

The biggest problem is all of our finances and property are joint (except some credit cards in individual names). It takes all of her and my money to pay for our mortgage, bills, etc. She wants to get an apartment by herself (yeah right), but WE can't afford it. We can't sell our house right now b/c of the market without taking a $100k hit. Feels like we are stuck financially and i just don't know how that's going to play out and/or impact things.

It's so clear that she and OM are in the deep, deep fog. I just don't know if there's any way to bust her out of it. This is what she's done her whole life due to her childhood problems. She gets to a big crossroad in her life (just married, ready for children), gets scared, and runs away from it, in the meantime building a huge defensive wall around her emotions. Unfortunately in this case she's been able to run to someone she's had feelings for for a while and is in the same situation. I understand from W's sister that she used to get caught up in all the drama of things in her past marriage and boyfriends, etc....like playing High School games. Sister said she hated that side of my W and since we'd been together that person was gone. Sister says now she feels that's what W is regressing to and it makes sense. Everything about the affair, all the text messages....it's all the drama. They are talking to each other like it's a cheap, dime-store, romance novel or an erotic book. She's so lost in that drama and fantasy that she's been sucked into the affair and out of our marriage. Unfortunately, since this is a regression to her past behavior and it does hinge on a lot of her past personal issues.........I don't know if I can get the fog to lift.

Is there anything else I can do besides exposure, working on myself (although with her being gone it may not be noticed) or even going to plan B? Can I really go to plan B just a few days after d-day???

Man this sucks [censored]. I feel so hopeless b/c she doesn't WANT to be home and doesn't WANT to work on anything about US. She is convinced she wants to be with him and only him. And he is convinced of the same. How can we get her to see the light??????

A lot of venting, I know....but thanks for listening and helping....it means a lot!

ILA

((((((((((ILA))))))))))

Hang in there, ILA! I remember so clearly what you are feeling.

And like you I was demonized by Mr. Gray and Slag. I was turned into an object of ridicule. I didn't even merit being called by my name in their correspondence, just an initial. OWH got called by his name, though.

It's not fair at all but they are aliens. For me, eventually I just came to grips with the fact that they had to do that to make themselves feel better about their disgusting behavior.

I knew this intuitively but it was everyone here that kept drumming it into my head that really helped to confirm it for me.

In my case...I thought, gee, what in the world would they have to talk about if I wasn't around?

Now I'm not...so who knows?

I know this hurts soooooo bad. It's hard to do anything and your mind is just reeling with all of it. Try deep breathing...it can help. I had to force myself to do that a lot in the beginning to try and slow down my heart. It kept beating too fast and it hurt when it was beating like that all of the time.

I can see now that it was the fight or flight instinct. But you never think about something like that when you are in the middle of it.

Keep posting here and we will help talk you through. I'm glad you are exposing to your family and hers.

I told no one at first, then I told my sister and my doctor. I swore my sister to secrecy. I was ashamed and it took a little while to realize the shame didn't belong to me.

Thanks to MB and everyone here...I was finally able to break free.

You are in the right place here.

Take care, ILA!

Charlotte

And please try to get something in your stomach, ILA! Drink some clear chicken broth or something. Don't let your body be deprived of food. I came within a hairsbreadth of having Mr. Gray take me to the hospital or call 911. It would have probably had to be 911...it was REALLY close!

All because I couldn't eat, food just wasn't worth it. I really depleted my system and I was incredibly lucky that it didn't shut down on me.

So please, take care of yourself!!!

Thanks C22! It's funny, in the past I would have been so ashamed of this and wouldn't want anyone to know....but since this first came up 4 weeks ago I find myself running to tell everyone I can my WHOLE story. I guess that's how I KNOW that I love my W. I've already grown a lot personally in just 4 weeks, but it does seem hopeless right now.

I just want the fog to lift so bad b/c I know this isn't my W....this is some imposter.

I appreciate the well wishes.

Since I kicked out the W yesterday and she doesn't WANT to be home anyway....does that mean I pretty much jump to plan B after just a few days? She won't be around to see plan A right??

I know I have to be patient....I'm just a 'fixer'. I have to find a solution and i can't rest until I do...that's one of my unfortunate vices!

Just curious

Now your above post is telling, ILA. In a good way since it helps us understand the angle you are coming from.

You are the primary giver in your M? Have you always been? Take a good look at your R history with your W, is has she always displayed a taker role? The WS exaggerates the taker role to the point it becomes selfish at all costs.

Based on the above, here are my suggestions. Please realize these are only my suggestions so you need to take what you can work with and feel free to discard the rest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (note: I had to add in the last sentence because some who also post here don't say my suggestions are more like telling people what to do and I don't want you to get the wrong impression).

1. Enter Plan B when your mind and heart are in sync. Plan B is usually done with a letter and a 3rd party contact. This helps the BS from receiving the direct hits from the WS. WS' tend not to be as forceful on a 3rd party. They tend to be like children who will have a tantrum on person but hold back on another adult.

You can do research on plan B letters. There are several on here.

2. Please read up on Plans A & B before implementing plan B. The book Surviving an Affair has good info. Another Harley book is His Needs/Her Needs. This books discusses how to communicate between men vs women. Very interesting. Also take the Emotional Needs questionnaire (located above). Then if you can call Steve @ MB for some phone counseling. He is worth the $$. If not, get a good MC in your area familiar with MB concepts. Those were my requirements before I could have a phone counseling session with him.

3. Once you understand plans A & B, implement it in order.

There you now have a plan to get started. It will require reading and an honest evaluation of yourself. In the meantime, stay away from the WS but learn to interact when you real wife's character shows up. Keep communication down to a minimum and let her come to you, then you control when and how she communicates with you. The WS' will accuse you of many things. Learn to differentiate between the WS vs your W.


There are other tools you can use but first it may be better to work on plan A 1st.

Finally, pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. Take the good out of the posts here and discard what won't work for you.

Welcome to the rollercoaster. We haven't used that term in a while but it still fits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Thank you so much. I understand your points and they sound very logical to me. I really haven't been able to decide on contacting her, asking her to live at home, etc. If you think I need to let her come to me when the time is right then I can sure buy into that.

In the meantime, I've been activly trying to do plan A things (or so I feel) but don't have the "surviving" book yet (hopefully it arrives today) so I don't fully understand plan A & B completely.

In the meantime, I'm continuing to expose her to everyone I can think of.

And, overall I'd say Yes, I probably have been more of the giver and her more of the taker.....I think that's just our personalities and maybe some of her defenses from past problems. But yes, I think you're correct in that assessment.

2 Q's:
- can you "over expose".....is that possible that you do so much harm you can't recover from her hatred??

- is there any use trying to get W to read these books in the state she's in? I think I had her convinced to at least read HNHN.....but then 30 minutes later I discovered the PA, blew up and kicked her out......of course she didn't take the book with her!

She's an intelligent person and loves to read things like this and I really believe it MIGHT ?? make her re-think what she's doing just a little bit if she read it from experts instead of hearing it from me. Thoughts?

Thanks a ton!
ILA

Orchid: Not really. Just keep your reasons true and honest. You are fighting for your M. It has been invaded by a selfish virus and you need help removing it. That is pretty much how I presented it my supporters. I also let them know that due on going circumstances (things changing constantly), I was not able to tell all to all but appreciated their support. Then I also said I would respect their POV input and asked they respect my decisions. For the most part, I got that support.


Orchid: It usually isn't wise to ask a WS to read BS support material. That's like giving ammo to the enemy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yep, the WS will only try to twist it. Remember you are dealing with 2 different characters. I recommend you do your reading 1st, get in with Jennifer @ MB or a good MC in your area. If you want to read up before your books come, check out the concepts section at the top of this web page. It is very helpful.


Orchid: We have found that time is wasted trying to teach a WS t/b normal. So until that opportunity comes forth (where your W will want to learn instead of the WS trying to stop it), then keep this info to yourself, work on your plan A and move forward. That will give her a path to follow. Expect her to grumble (because WS' are lazy) but keep moving forward because you know these changes are good for you and your family.

take care,
L.

Thanks, Orhcid......you are very knowledgable! I will continue to work on my plan A techniques and hopefully the book will arrive today to help me fully understand the plans.

As hard as it is for me, I'll try to resist contacting WS and make her come to me. If she does, I'll try my best to control the convo. and only speak with her when she's in the right frame of mind.

In the meantime I'm going to keep exposing to everyone that W knows and cares about and hopefully they can give me some feedback about her state of mind if they happen to talk to her.

I must say....I don't expect her to contact me anytime soon....she's so lost and her and OM have been "counting the days" (per the text messages) until they can be together "at last". I want to puke!

As a matter of fact, I would fully expect her to run right out and file for D today if she can.....that's what they both want. I'm hoping some family can talk to her first and convince her to wait on the D until she can step back from things and really think about it.........but probably not likely. We'll see.

I know that she still has a few doubts in her mind. I can see her mind working even though her eyes are blank. I spent an hour the other night preaching to her that she needs to consider her future (after affirming that I'm not telling her she's not in love with him nor that she's not in love with me... "I'm not calling you a liar" basically) I brought up points about love vs. in-love and running from stability into chaos and instability, etc,etc. I think I made a lot of good points and did it well, but she had the fence up and stared right through me. Nonetheless, the text messages I discovered the next day from OM (proof of PA) answered those types of questions...."don't worry what he says, I'll never leave you", etc.,etc. So, I know bits and pieces of what I say penetrate her cloudy mind. Is that cause for optimism or not? When I see any shred of that (statements of wanting to work on HER (not our) problems, tears, etc.), although VERY few and far between, I almost feel like I need to jump at the opportunity and try to make headway or she will drift further away. I feel like "this is my chance, she's vulnerable". Is this crazy talk on my part? Do I just need to leave well enough alone b/c I may be hurting my cause?

You are doing good. Hard to see but from what I have witnessed, you are doing ok.

Now what is working in your favor is this:

WS' are basically a lazy bunch. They don't want to be the one's t/d the D work. So they will put their effort into goading the BS into enabling the A, filing for the D and handing over all you have to them for their destruction.

Now that you know this, use this to your advantage. Once you regain control of yourself, you will be able to use this knowledge to twist the life out of the A.

One of the tools I have used is reverse babble. This is where you can give the WS back their guilt. Example:

WS: You need to file for a D. I don't love you enough anymore.

BS: Really? Ok, let me know when you are done filing for the D.

WS: (not really paying attention to your RB, thinks you have just agreed to file the D <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).... Well I also need you to pay for my lawyer. He is expensive but I need him to make sure I win.

BS: Really? You can pay for both our lawyers. That's quite generous from you. Where will you get that $$? From OM?

NOTE: Eventually it will hit her but there will be enough time for you to get away and regroup your thoughts. It is quite draining to deal with a WS

L.

I never would have thought that she'd be lazy to file for D. She claims early on that she'd already considered and/or looked in to filing for annullment (in which she would fail miserably) and she's talked about everything we'd do in the event of a D (house/bills/etc). You really think she would not file???

I figured especially since OM is ready right now to file for his D (has lawyer, etc.) and since they both want this so bad that he'd probably talk her into it/help her out with it.

Also, I read Trueheart's letter.........very well put! I'm assuming there's no way it would help to have her read that now...but I thought I might give that to her family /friends to which I'm exposing so they can "see exactly what she's going through" and might understand how to approach her better. I tell everyone the info. that's in the letter....and it's 98% applicable to our situation....but it's always easier to grasp when you read it rather than hear it from the BS I figure.

Thoughts?

Another question: does anyone have statistical data on approx. how many A's (after exposure) are able to avoid divorce/lead to reconciliation of M ?

How about when A is out in the open and both S and OP STILL don't want to reconcile (my current situation)??

Just curious what I'm in for!

SOS !!!!!

W just called me (and reluctantly I answered...I'm at work). She asked when I'd be home tonight so I told her....she wants to talk.

I asked her what about and she said, well, for the message I left her last night for one.....I'll explain:

After learning of the PA and kicking her out of the house I proceeded to start calling a bunch of people and ramping up the exposure. 2nd person I called was the OM (first contact I'd had with him since this all started). I'd also emailed OMW earlier in the day and she called me back last night but I couldn't as had to run out for an hour. While waiting on me to get back, OMW called OM to confront and apparently he heard or she mentioned that their daughter was upset in the background. OM called me and left me very threatening, very vengeful message "never to drag his daughter into this situation" ....funny HE should say that huh?. I ended up calling back OM and we talked it out, etc.

I then left message for my W telling her I apologized that the blow up earlier had happened but I was not sorry about my decision b/c what she was doing was very wrong. I also told her that in the spirit of full honesty, that OM had called me threatening me but I'd called him back to resolve it. That was about all I said.

I'm not sure why she wants to talk about that but I assume she will try to tell me I had no right to inform OMW. Honestly, I can't believe she even called me today....didn't think I'd hear anything for a while after the "boot".

I'm very uneasy about how to play this conversation tonight when she calls back to talk. I'm just learning the plan A&B after all!!!!

She obviously knows I'm very upset, but I know none of her fog has lifted either.

HELP!

80% of people who have an affair are still with their spouse 5 years later.

Exposure usually has no impact on whether or not the betrayed and wayward spouse reconcile, but it shortens the duration of the affair.

I don't have data on whether or not it works when both parties continue the A after exposure, but I can tell you that most continue to A even after they are confronted.

You are in for he11. Probably at least a year of it. You need to really decide if you wife is worth fighting for. Afterall, this is her 2nd marriage, and you've only been together for 6 months. I'd bet money that her first marriage ended under similar circumstances. You can't fix a serial cheater.

One other thing you need to do is EXPOSE TO THEIR EMPLOYER. Make sure it is out in the open at school, and her superiors know. Your situation will never improve as long as they work together. One or the other has to leave. The best way for that to happen is for one or the other to get fired, or for one of them to leave because they can't stand the embarrassment. I know that you are concerned about LBs, but this is the one tactical LB strike you need to make to possibly save your marriage. Oh, save all your proof because she'll cover her tracks and deny the whole thing if she can.

So if you don't feel comfortable enough to 'talk', postpone the convo.

Let her sweat it out until U R ready. That is YOUR option.



L.

Other than the continued exposure to the employer, if she lives at home, you need to keep tabs on her and clearly define your marital boundaries. That includes no calling or texting OM and hooking up with him. Get online and check her cell phone log. If you pay for the phone, you need to take some steps. If you can block his number do so. Turn off text messages. If she continue to call him, turn off her phone. Put GPS on her car, and call her out when she goes and visits OM. She doesn't get to stay at home if she continues to bang OM and cross your boundaries. Waywards are like 18-21 year-old children. You need to put rules in place, and they either abide by them, or you kick them out of the house until they clean themselves up.

Also, if you take a strong stand against her infidelity, you need to carry a digital recorder with you in case she calls the cops on you and accuses you of abuse. In the time from when she calls to when the cops arrive, you need to get her on tape saying that you didn't abuse her. Trust me, there are so many men here that have been hauled to jail because their wives wanted to get them out of the house to carry on their affair.

I must say...those are very encouraging numbers....I sure feel at about 10% chance right now! Thank you.

Also, if I feel she's not in a proper state of mind to have the convo. we need to have then I think I WILL tell her that we need to talk again down the road when she has a clearer head.

Thanks!

Oh, and separate your finances. Don't let your WW deplete you savings or rack up a ton of debt to finance her affair. OM probably isn't going to pay for much for your WW since he is going through a D right now.

jmwc: she has been out of the house since day 1 that she mentioned that anything was wrong (5 weeks). She was just stopping in yesterday when I found proof of the PA and I kicked her out. The boundaries are defined and she doesn't WANT to be at home....she only WANTS to be with him, period.

I don't have to follow her around b/c she's admitted to everything but has expressed that they want to be together and she doesn't want to be with me. She's not to the point where she cares to try to work on things yet.

Unfortunately on the finances we are limited. It takes all of both of our paychecks to pay the mortgage and all the bills....not much left over (we are fairly equal earners). And due to the market we would probably lose $100k on our new house if we had to sell it now. Neither one can afford the house on our own. If the house was out of the picture, then we could probably split and live on our owns in an apartments or something and get by......but the house almost seems like children right now....one of the few things holding her from walking away from the M!

Don't miss Jim's point to expose the A at their workplace. Every word he wrote about that exposure is IMPORTANT as hel!.

Question about that....my wife LOVES her teaching job and school and even won teacher of the year last year. If she were to find out I told her superiors and this in any way affected her job.....she wouldn't never get over it. Period.

As for the OM, he's the baseball coach and can find some other job for all I care.

I do have some other co-workers that I could tell that may try to steer her straight without jeopardizing her job.....am I being way to soft here????

If you want to save your marriage, one of them must leave the job. Exposure may help that happen. You must ask yourself, do you want your wife to have have her teaching job, or do you want your marriage to survive?

Yes, you are being too soft. Do you want to save your M or are you too afraid of pissing her off. Tell her superior. Your WW will get over it. My WW was furious when I told her boss. Guess what, she got over it. They all do. If you can get over her screwing another man, she can surely let this slide in time. Afterall, she's the one that put her career in jeopardy.

Well that didn't go so well. W called back and only reason was to confront me about why I called OMW....she said she thought it was wrong for me to do it. I said OMW had a right to know but W was convinced it was only if OM told her....Bullsh*t! She was also upset I was talking to her family and friends but I said I would continue to b/c they've all been there supporting me through this whole thing. I told her if she was honest with them maybe they wouldn't have to hear it from me.

Unfortunately I allowed myself to get into discussion of what I thought she was doing. (which is a form of pleading I know). I wanted to try and convince her that the person that she'd become wasn't my W...it was just some imposter. I told her that my W is a beautiful person that I'd do anything in the world for and I'd even be willing to still work on our marriage after the A and all...IF and only IF my W came back and committed to it. I said this 'other' person that I'm dealing with right now is a dark, hateful, bad person and I would NOT deal with that person. None of that made a dent though and it probably just hurt my situation.

We discussed finances. She didn't mention D which surprised me. But, she did say that she wanted to make sure I was paying her bills too. All our money is joint and I pay all the bills. She said she was going to open her own bank account so she could put a little money in there for her personal spending. She said she'd still direct deposit her paychecks into our joint account. I agreed to allow it as long as she notified me before taking in money out of our account and putting into hers. She basically said she didn't want me knowing what she was spending money on and where she was going/what she was doing.

Still staying at her aunt's house for a while but her Aunt finally talked to her tonight...I'll have to call Aunt tomorrow for details but it sounds like Aunt convinced her to get some personal counseling. W said as long as she's staying somewhere rent-free then we are ok, but if WE (meaning the A....Freudian slip on her part) get an apartment or something then we'd have to sell our house. This is true as we can't afford the mortgage alone and if she's paying rent elsewhere then we couldn't afford it either. I have to believe it's only a matter of time until they want to get an apartment and that means big trouble with our house (can't sell right now without taking a huge loss...if can sell at all!) and of course them living together doesn't help the A situation any.

I'm confused...almost feel like I need to start looking to protect any legal rights I may have. I think I may have to consider filing for an annulment as I may have grounds for it now (not sure legally). This is only 5 weeks after problems first came up and only a few days after the EA and PA were exposed. I feel like I'm getting forced into divorce/plan B phase already!

She's just so defiant and not willing to budge. These 2 want to be together and looking to do it soon I know. She still says there's NO chance for our marriage and I think she's convinced she's with the man she wants.

Feels very bleak right now. I wish family influence and maybe some personal counseling might make her start to think about things.....but obviously anything I say right now only drives her further away.

Not sure where to go next. This will be a long haul....but the changes may come quickly due to circumstance. Not sure what to do!

What exactly CAN I do when W and OM are talking about getting an apartment together.....just 4 days after I've exposed the EA and 1 day after I've exposed the PA.....it's just like they've been waiting for me to find out to justify it or something! I swear, it's like "now that he knows, he's out of the picture" and "we can live our lives together".....I guarantee that is word for word what they said to each other today.

Getting real ugly now. Man this has me knocked off my feet.

You can't do anything to make them stop. Right now you need to focus and work on yourself. I know this doesn't make a lot of sense but look at it as if you are preparing for battle. You are getting prepared to fight for the survival of your life.

Let them try their measly attempts at finding love.... that's crap.... there is no real love in deceit.

If they don't cone to their sense soon and once their fantasy wears out, one of them will be disloyal and leave the other.

In the meantime, you need to keep moving forward so she has something to see as a good goal, you and your M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Thank you. She just left me a message while I'm at work and said she wanted to let me know she was going to stop by the house to pick up some things. I'm not concerned about her taking anything she shouldn't, I think she's just getting clothes. She mentioned last night about getting work clothes although she's still off work for another week and a half........that tells me she's not expecting to be home for quite some time.

Here's the thing I'm interested in: I have all my books from MB sitting on our desk at home, I have a few printouts of articles describing affairs and essentially everything she's doing right now, I took the time a week ago (an idea from one of her family members) to make a list of everything she's done or does that I recognize and appreciate, so about 4 pages worth of that is sitting on my desk. And, finally, the letter from Trueheart that Orchid has is also sitting right there to see.

There's nothing I can do to hide it obviously and she may or may not read it (might likely just ignore it altogether). Do you think that is going to be detrimental or could it even possibly help in some way?? (part of me thinks that if she reads some of it herself with no one forcing on her then maybe it will sink in a little.....another part thinks she's going to see all the "behind her back" stuff I'm doing to try to "diagnose her problem")

Just curious.

.........whoa, she just called me back. I told her I appreciated her letting me know in advance and that she was to take nothing that belong to US, was to come alone as HE was never allowed to step foot in our home. She said "why would I do that"....I said I was just putting it on the table. I also told her that my parents are taking things really hard and my mother wants to fly out for a while....not sure when but she'd be here for a few days at some point. That's really about it.

What do you think about her possibly reading all the MB stuff?

Orchid, I understand what you're saying...the hard part is I just don't know if this will fall apart for them. They have been really good friends for 2 years, they both want to be together, and quite frankly (and this is what really scares me)..I can actually see them being successful together and this working for them. Maybe I'm just being insecure but that really scares me. I really think they can make things work.

Leave your MB stuff around. This is your home. The WS needs t/b uncomfortable in a BS' home.

Don't tell her too much of your plans. If your mom is coming to visit let her. Make your mom a respectable part of your support group who will respect your decisions while you give her a respectable ear to what she has to say.

As for division of things, it is good that you asked. If she balks or gets defensive expect it and have a come back line or 2 ready.

Don't work too hard at this. Work on your plan A so you are able to move forward to plan B when u r ready.

take care.
L.

Thanks Orchid...I have been trying to learn and practice my reverse babble skills in case those questions do arise. It doesn't seem like she's going to snap out of this anytime soon (if ever). I just hope we don't have to go and sell our house, get divorce, etc.,etc. before the A has a chance to run it's course and fall apart.

I'd think that those would be life-altering events that would make it difficult to revive the marriage and start over.

That's something I worry about, too, ILA.

I try not to think about it too much right now.

Our mortgage will be paid off in August, too, so selling would really suck. I just try to get used to the idea of having to do that but not think about it too much at the same time.

If THAT makes any sense!! LOL!

Yeah, C22, that's the biggest question mark right now. Unfortunatly we'd have to sell at a $100k loss b/c we bought about a year ago before the market crashed so much. Just hope it never comes to the point of moving/selling/etc/etc.

I'm sure W and OM are planning on moving in together very soon though and if she starts paying rent, then WE can't afford the mortgage. Half of that is her responsibility but I don't know that I can take any legal action of any kind.??

I almost wonder if I should head off a possible D with an anullment (I would think I might have grounds to disolve the marriage under false pretenses) since it's only been 6 mths. But, while that might be my best legal bet....it may also signal the complete end to any reconcilliation too.

Just not sure.

You can separate your finances from her and expose to her employer for starts.

I'm still trying to come up with the best way to expose to her employer. I feel like I need to be very discreet about it and find just the right person. I honestly feel that this might be a deal breaker for my W and I actually fear that the OM might literally hunt me down if they found out! I know they will be mad and I know I must find a way to do this, but I think this is the hardest exposure of all and I'm looking for the best way still.

Finances are just as difficult. I need her paycheck to pay all the bills /mortgage and all. I can't just cut her off b/c I wouldn't be able to pay everything. (most everything is joint). We are very equal in our amount of debt, amount of income, etc. We made an agreement last night that I'd continue to handle all bills and she'd continue to direct deposit her paychecks into our account. She did want to open her own account so she could have some "private" spending money though......this is undoubtedly a result of me telling her that I would NOT support her spending money on HIM. But, she does have a right to her own spending money just like I do and if she only takes out a little each month (which she promised to allow me to pre-approve) then it's hard for me to say otherwise.

I feel like she's got me by the balls a bit on the house b/c if she insists on getting an apartment thus insisting we sell the house we will take such a huge loss......and I just want to avoid going down that road right now. Maybe it comes down to that eventually, but I am only a few days into the actual A discovery. As badly as I want to solve everything right now, I feel like I need to be patient too and not push too quickly. I"m already exposing like crazy to everyone else. I almost feel like the more I push, the faster I'll drive her out of her Aunt's house and into an apartment with OM. That seems as if it would be very bad.

I finally called her Aunt, whom W is staying with, and who got to talk to W for the first time last night about things. I had already told Aunt whole story. Aunt probably has the most influence on W of anyone in my opinion and could be biggest ally. Unfortunatly for me, Aunt is being very proper about things and says she can't tell me what they've talked about....says she can listen to me, but can't divulge their confidential discussions (makes you think Aunt is a shrink or something!). I asked her what sense she got though, and she said she feels there is still hope. She said I have to just backoff and give time and she thinks there is a chance still. She says she's extremely impressed with me and so happy about how I've handled this whole situation. I know she understands my pain and wants to help me just as much as W. Aunt said W was very up front about the A and everything and doesn't know we've spoken.

I guess that makes me feel good, but I also wonder if W maybe was able to make Aunt believe that her feelings for OM were so strong and real that this is "meant to be"....I really don't know. I think Aunt is much smarter than that and I have extreme faith in her understanding of these issues, her spirituality, etc.

Maybe I should tread lightly for a little while and keep working plan A....not jump ahead of myself too much?? I will continue to expose to other friends and family, but I don't know if I want to get too agressive too fast either. Even though most discussions b/w W and I just end up undercutting my new found hope and making me lose faith.....I think I see and hear positive things from others that show maybe there's a chink in the armor...some uncertainty on W's part still.

It really does seem that the more WE talk, the worse things get. I think family and friends can do some good right now but I'm only hurting the situation.

Your fears will only hold you back. No offense, but grow a pair. The OM should be afraid of you. Take your proof, schedule a meeting with her employer and then sit down with them (you should probably have a letter prepared), show them your proof, and tell them you expect them to do something about it. They probably won't, but at least they will sit down and talk to your WW and OM, making it quite uncomfortable for them.


Divorce will cost more than your WW losing her job. No offense again, but geeze, you are a pushover. She is your wife. She is not entitled to have "private" spending money to spend on her affair partner. Part of the consequences of having an affair is for her to have to handle her own finances, not have you be her financial planner.


Exposure is your friend. You are putting pressure on her affair. As for the house, speak with a lawyer today to see what your options are. You might want to go ahead and file first (or at least file for a separation) just to expose her to the financial consequences. You can always drop the divorce later if you want to.


Blood is always thicker than water. Don't expect much from the aunt. Don't talk to your WW about your relationship. Just make conversation. Expose to her employer quickly. The longer you let this drag on, the less effective exposure will be. It's time to man up.

On a side note, if you do lose her, it's probably for the best. This woman wreaks of being a serial cheater and a completely horrible and selfish person. I'm sure she's great to be around when she's happy, but when she isn't, she's toxic. If it doesn't work out, you can and will find better, but you better learn from this experience and avoid dating anyone like your WW again. Try dating someone who isn't on their 2nd or 3rd marriage OR is divorced under similar circumstances to you.

Wow, good stuff. Thanks for all the input. I'm really doing some hard thinking about all of that. I feel like I need to take a day or so off....I've been going 24-7 since this all happened and I just need to think for a bit.

I appreciate all the info jmwc, I'll do my best to get tougher. Thanks

See I differ a bit from JMw's post. I see her aunt as your ally. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Be patient. Let her work through this with your W at her pace. Older people may have a slower way of dealing with an issue but often it has longer lasting results.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Orchid, I tend to feel that way too (doesn't mean I'm right).

Her Aunt has helped my W through a bunch of tough times in her life and is probably the best "parental" figure W has ever had. Her Aunt is the only one that has forced my W to step up and take responsibility for things and b/c of that my W respects her and listens to what she has to say.

I hear through the grapevine that Aunt is insisting that W seek some counseling and also try to focus on more spiritualism in her life. We are both sort of agnostic and don't buy into organized religion so much, but we both believe in spiritualism and a higher power.......so maybe that will help her at least start to look at the morality side of what she's doing here.

According to her Aunt yesterday, W actually offered up the A info. to her without any prodding.....the only person my W has told to my knowledge.....so that shows how much influence the Aunt has.

The hard part is that all I can think of 24 hours a day right now is these 2 in bed together. I'm just killing myself thinking about it. And, I know that it's going to continue that way for a long time b/c that's all they want to do is be together. It almost seems like now that they've been discovered they feel like they can stop sneaking around and really get on with the A. I bet they feel a big weight off their shoulders right now.

Every hour that passes makes it harder and harder to keep the faith and even to keep the feelings of love and respect that I have for my W.

Boy, the roller coaster is sure going down that first big steep hill right now and my stomach feels it!!!!

Staying the night with my SIL & BIL. SIL is W's #1 most important person in the world but she's been behind me so much through all of this. Constantly has invited me to come spend the night with them so I'm finally going to take them up on it. A boys day out on the golf course tomorrow should be a nice exit for a few hours too.

Just talked to W's best friend and apparently W, her best friend, and my SIL all got together last night to talk about things. All I've heard so far is that W was really "calm" about things......but I'm sure that was a fog-laden calmness and probably convinced them that she really felt for OP, no love for me, knew what she wanted, etc,etc. I'll find out a lot more tonight hopefully when I can speak to both individuals at greater length.

I know there's no way that W can go from texting OM about "getting me out of her life and finally living out her dream with him", "i will love you forever", "can't wait to make love to you again", etc. and then 2 days later have any sort of clarity so I'm trying not to get my hopes up.

All I want to hear is that W is uncertain or has doubts about what she is doing. Everything W has told me indicates that WE are done, she knows she is meant to be with OM, and she sees no more future for us. But if there's at least a little doubt in her mind, then the seed is still planted, which is no gurarantee, but at least it gives me some hope.

Man this is tough. You all are so right about it.....I can't believe this pain.

Thanks for the support

I think I already know the answer to this....but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Since I unearthed the EA on 1/5 and the PA on 1/8, I've exposed to lots of key family and friends of the W. W had been avoiding them up to that point in time or if she did talk to them she was just blaming me for our failed marriage and the way she felt. Now that I've exposed and she's starting to know it, she's actually starting to talk to these key family/friends about the A (or at least about the OM....I sort of doubt she's presenting as an A but rather her "true feelings" for her "soulmate" type of BullSh*t). Anyway, I don't yet know all the results of these "talks" b/w W and family/friends (will learn more tonight hopefully), but those people are all sort of telling me to back off a bit and give her a little time to assess things.

Part of me believes this. I think I sense a little uncertainty creeping in. I felt some of that early on (5 wks. ago) too but the more I pushed her the less uncertainty there was and the more she seemed to be relying on OM....feels like I pushed her further away. She's very angry now but at least since it's exposed to some key family members that uncertainty MAY, I stress MAY, be creeping in a bit again. If it really is, I feel like I should back off for a few days and see if family can make a breakthrough without me pissing her off any more.

The other side of me thinks that her family/friends are hearing this from W...."I just need some time" ,"he just needs to leave me alone for a while" and they are believing it. I"ve tried to coach all of them on her fog and why she is doing/saying everything but don't know if they all fully understand or not. The people that W has talked to openly in the last 48 hrs. though are people I trust a lot.

Only 3 days into the PA discovery so I don't feel like I should necessarily get too carried away with workplace exposure (she's on sickleave due to surgery for another week still but OM is back teaching) as I already have gotten key family doing some pushing for me.

Any thoughts on laying low for a few days (like family says I should) or just continue to be 'nuclear' about the exposure (as I've read in a former post) ???

ILA,

As long as your WW and OM work together, your situation will NEVER improve. Your goal should be to get NC FOR LIFE into place. That includes exposure to the school.

The marriage has a 100% better chance of surviving her anger over exposure at the school, than it does while an OM is still in the equation. Like Jim said, man up an do the exposure, before your WW has a chance to "warn" school officials that her jealous husband is spreading rumors about her messing around. Preemptive strike! This exposure is one of your best and most powerful weapons to bring an end to the A.

Well, my W spoke candidly with her best friend and sister on Thursday night, and on Friday I talked to them. Best friend didn't see any hope...said W was very calm and acted like she knew what she was doing. I'm sure this is the fog and W is doing a good job of convincing her of everything. I spent Friday night/Sat. with W's older sister and she unfortunatley saw/heard the same things....but at least she understands exactly what my W is going through. There's a long history with my W of running away from her problems (due to childhood, no father, addictive step father, you name it). Everytime W gets to a big hurdle in life...long term relationship, marriage, kids, even finishing college was difficult....she gets afraid about something, gets afraid of the uncertainty and responsibility ahead of her and runs away. So far every man in her life has allowed it to happen. I know now it's for good reason too. She's cheated on them all. I knew that she had already "moved on" as she put it before her first divorce was finalized...but everyone hated this idiot so I didn't ever put too much stock in it. I knew of a few other sexploits, but only yesterday in speaking with a close family frined did I hear that all of those situations were my W cheating on a boyfriend.

I know now that this is my W's M.O. As sad as that is, this is how she tries to end a relationship....she gets afraid, wants to run away, and the easiest way to get rid of the man is to do something so hurtful that he has no choice...she cheats on him.

I realize that she knowingly does this and I'm sure consciously is doing it to me now. But she doesn't know WHY she does it or how to stop doing it. As hurtful and devastaing as this is right now to me, knowing this almost makes me feel like I love her even more deeply. I'm sure that all sounds insane to you, but I know what she's dealt with in her past and I guess I always knew that it could potentially be a problem some day....but when I made the self-commitment to my W to love her unconditionally and spend my life with her...I knowingly accepted that.

I want to HELP her. No man in her life has ever fought for her and my soul tells me that if she will realize just how hard I'll fight to keep her and she knows that I'll never give up on her like everyone else has....that we will get through this. But, man it seems nearly impossible right now.

She did call me last night to say that she'd taken $30 out our checking account (which I asked her to do) and mentioned that her Aunt has convinced her to see a counselor tomorrow. We've never been church-go'ers and my W doesn't believe in organized religion but I know she's been looking for more spirituality in her life recently. Aunt got her lined up to see someone through Aunt's church so I know this has to be a very good thing. I returned W's call and told her thank you for being up front about the money and that I was very proud of her for taking this step to see someone. I said, I know it's only for you right now and not for us....but nonetheless, I feel very proud that you've taken this step. That's all we talked about..I wanted to be brief.

Due to all of the advice from everyone here, and contradictory to the advice of family members....I went ahead and put in a call to W's co-worker at her school. This is a pretty good friend of W's (her mentor of sorts for teaching). She doesn't know my W's whole history by any means, but she and her husband are high school sweethearts from Indiana and I know they have tremendous values and morality. She hasn't called me back yet, but I think I'm going to try and expose to her first to see if she can start spreading the word at school, put a little self-pressure on my W, etc. The other friends of W I don't trust so much....I almost think they'd support the A b/c they are buddies with OM too....it's a little clique that they run in at work. This fiend I'm going to speak to and her husband were our photographers at our wedding too and the husband is even subbing for my wife for another week while W is out on sick leave due to recent shoulder surgery....I think these two are my best ally at workplace. We'll see what happens.

I'm also preparing myself to contact the principal as he and my W are very close actually. Principal came to our wedding too. I think he could really use his friendship with W as well as job position to hopefully exert some pressure. Since it's teachers at a school, I doubt there is any workplace policy on dating....but maybe he could at least threaten them a little.

So, I'm happy W is going to see counselor tomorrow and I'm easing myself into having the guts to expose to her workplace....but it all seems very helpless still. I just know how completely head-over-heals W and OM are right now and I know how much W has lost the feelings of true love for me. We don't have kids, W is ok financially on her own, etc. so I sometimes don't feel like she 'needs' anything from me in regard to fulfilling her emotional needs. Sometimes I think that the OM can completely fulfill all her needs so the A may never break down. But, I'm going to try my best to stay positive and keep plan A-ing the best I can right now. My mother just came out and is staying 2 weeks with me since W is staying at Aunt's house. Although she'll probably start to annoy me soon!....I know it's good to have someone around so I'm not all alone.

Any further advice is always appreciated. I'm really trying but it seems really grim right now.
Thanks for listening
ILA

Bumping Up....am I insane for still feeling this much love for a serial cheater? (see last post).

I know for a fact that this is just how she's wired and she just needs professional help to get over it. Nobody's ever tried, all the other men just walked away so W thinks that's how you end things, you cheat on them and they'll go away. But she's never had anyone like me before. This is by far the most serious loving person she's ever had and I know she feels the same way deep inside.....she just got scared again and ran. I won't ever give up on her b/c she means that much to me....even with all that she's just done to me.

Am I just an idiot or what?

I'm married to a serial cheater, too. You are not insane for your love for her. I love my WH,too. I have no advice. I have asked myself that same question. And no, you are not the idiot.

Well, interesting turn of events just happened. My W had her mother and step-dad move away when W was in high school and the neighbors took her in and have treated her like a daughter ever since. Their 3 boys call my W their "sister" even though she really isn't. I've really been talking alot to them b/c I know they will fully support me.

Well, my W called this afternoon about coming home this week to get some clothes and mentioned she was going the this "other" family's house for dinner. I then called "other" family and just visited about the upcoming dinner a bit.

As it turns out, the father, who is always very soft spoken and non-confrontational told his wife that my W was NOT welcome in their house right now. So the wife called my W and told her this. This is the 1ST PERSON WHO'S STOOD UP TO HER! I guess my W was crying and saying "why", "why"? She still couldn't understand b/c of the fog she's in.

Then, W called me...extremely emotional and crying hard...moreso than any emotion she's shown me through the last 5 weeks. Of course she blamed me for pitting her family against her and everything. But, I was very diplomatic and "played dumb" a little too. W admitted she knows that she cheats on men to get rid of them but that's just "who she is". I kept telling her it doesn't have to be that way and I wanted to help her out of it. She finally hung up on me.

I called right back and told her to just listen for a minute. I reconfirmed that as long as she's with another man I can't do anything to support her, but that I love her deeply in spite of everything and I wasn't going to give up on her like every other man has. We "saved" each other when we met, don't know where I'd be right now without meeting her, etc. Said she'd never met a man like me who loved her enough to help her end this toxic cycle. She was still very upset and didn't respond to any of it....but at least she heard it.

This feels like a breakthrough....somebody finally rocked her emotions. But, now she's so upset with me and doesn't want to see me or talk to me she claims. She wants me to be gone when she comes to get clothes but I won't be (my mother is here so somebody will be here 24/7.

What do you all think....is this a good thing? What should I do next? "other" family of hers says I should box up her clothes and have them waiting! I don't know what the next step should be....feels like her emotions are on the ropes and she is seeing a PC tomorrow finally. Feels like I need to ACT right now but not sure what to do!!!

First off, I don't think serial cheaters can be fixed. But if you are intent on giving this a try, you need to expose to her boss at work. I would keep up with plan A for a while longer, until she moves out if she's going to. If you do eventually reconcile, your WW needs to get INTENSE counseling, otherwise you are bound to wind up in this position later down the road. You do not want to have children with this woman unless she is truly fixed. I would recommend walking away from this person, but if you don't, do not settle for table scraps.

You need to be applying ever increasing pressure to end the affair. Good work on the exposure to family and those who's feelings she respects. I would call the principal of the school as well. You already put it out there and the rumor mill is going to be buzzing, its best that he hears it from you first and knows that you are wanting to save the marriage. Its quite likely that he fires one or both of them, but one of them is going to have to leave anyway for the marriage to have a chance and NC to be established.

Stay strong, you're taking the right steps, attacking the A and executing Plan A very well.

Good luck!

Well, I think I've about given up hope. After W was extremely upset that her "other family" wouldn't accept her into their home right now, I ended up driving over to meet W where she was house-sitting. I just wanted to give her a hug, make sure she was ok, and "be there for her" in this time when her emotions were finally open and available. She wasn't there, so I called and found out she was on the way. As it turns out, she was ready to call me and sit down and seriously talk too....so we were thinking the same.

Well, we had a very long, calm, emotional, honest talk. W was initially upset that I'd been giving "my side" of the story to her family members and she thought I was only telling them of the A and not of our situation over the past 2 years. To that extent she's sort of correct. I HAVE been blaming the A for everything since I discovered it a week ago. Being on this website so much made me believe that was the WHOLE story.

W told me she just didn't have that special, spiritual feeling for me that she thought she needed. We've lived together 5 years and married 6 mths. ago and I never thought that was a potential problem. She talked about everything that was good, how much she loved and cared for me, but she just hadn't been able to get over this lack of that special connection. Claims she regretted we got married and that she drug me so far down this road, all the time knowing there was something missing in her heart. She said she just didn't want to give up hope either...that's why she kept trying, thinking it would show up. I told her I know that feelings been there, at our wedding 6 mths. ago I'm sure it was.....she didn't deny nor confirm that.

Anyway, we both expressed regrets that we hadn't communicated properly and we never were able to confront this sooner. We both agreed that it probably could have been fixed had we done that but she feels it's simply too late.

W claims that A and our problems are separate, although she deeply regrets jumping into A with him so soon b/c of how it has hurt me. I told her there's no way they are independent of each other. I said that if OM didn't exist that we'd still be working things out right now....she wouldn't have given up all hope. She didn't think that matter b/c the "feeling" was just simply gone. She also claims she really believes that feeling that she's been looking for is present in her for OM.

W is seeing spiritual advisor today from Aunt's church to work on herself. She said she felt very comfortable and at peace with her decisions and just wanted to confirm that she really is walking down the right "path".

I told her how much I'd grown through this and now that I finally understand everything I just know that our marriage would be so different. She cried every time I said that b/c she was just sad that I couldn't have understood before now. I said if we'd gone through this with other people and had only just now met that things could be amazing and she totally agreed.

I told her she'd saved me when we met, don't know where i'd be today without her and visa versa. She fully agreed with me on that too.

So, it is apparent to her that we have everything in place for a great marriage and life together except for her lack of that true "in-love" spritiual connection. She just doesn't think it can be recovered and unfortunately with OM in the picture she will never try. She's convinced that she wants to try with him instead b/c she thinks he's the one she is supposed to be with.

This is what sucks....she doesn't deny anything...just says that we aren't right for each other and that what she's looking for in her life is with someone else. I don't know how to combat that.

In my soul, I know that if he weren't in the picture and she was able to calm her spiritual mind, that she would start to find it in herself to try again. And if we tried, that we would be great....just b/c of what we now know. Our marriage really would be galvanized by this. But, I don't know if she will ever come to that conclusion.

We left things on a calm note, agreeing to take a little time to think still before making any final decisions. We both can't see a life without each other involved...at least as friends. Of course I told her that it may be hard if she ends up with OM and of course she understood that.

W claims that she's really talking to OM about breaking things off for a while just to let her work on her spiritual outlook and make sure this is right. But, since they work together there won't be NC, and I don't know if she can truly step far enough back on her own to make that work. I"m torn....part of me wants her to ask him to back off, find it in her heart to come home and try to save our marriage, but I don't know if her heart would be fully into it. The other side of me just hopes their relationship continues on and maybe the A will run it's course and end....then she might come back with the right mind set. But, if they truly do have this connection....then they may end up together for good.

Boy, where do I go now? I found out that several teachers at her work already know (from W and OM telling them) and I got a call back after our talk from the one teacher that I had contacted. So, I spilled the beans to that teacher and then called W to let her know I did it...to be honest. W was very upset, especially after what we'd just discussed.....but she'll get over it. I just don't see any way to expose to her boss now b/c that will likely end any chance of reconciliation. She's been cleary hurt enough by the exposure to date and it has made a dent....but anymore seems like it would drive her away for good. I think the word is on the street enough to do what it needs to do.

I don't know if I should give up and move on or not. Part of me thinks that if I really continue to plan A really hard that maybe she'll find the conviction to give it a try. We even talked about not wanting to sell our house for a huge loss and maybe at some point she moves back in, but more as "roommates" than husband and wife. Of course that would be difficult if she were still with OM. I just can't see her truly working on us with her full conviction until she tries to make it work with OM first.

This sucks but part of me feels a little more calm today. It's sort of a feeling of acceptance, although I don't even want to consider throwing in the towel yet. She now says to call her and we can talk whenever....which is not something she was willing to do before. We seem to be on the same emotional plane finally but it's just a plane with very little hope for the future.

Time apart and some spiritual healing? Is that my best bet now? I'll try to keep plan-A'ing the best I can.

Dude, she's infecting you with that WS Fog with all that "spiritual" talk. If that continues, you'll eventually find yourself agreeing to let get be with the OM with minimum fuss on your part. What's all this stuff about "it will be hard to remain friends if she chooses to go with the OM"? You should not even be considering it at all!

What hasn't her boss been told yet? The stick of Plan A is not to avoid, but to *instigate* conflict that will break up the A. Appeasing an active WW over concerns about her A becoming exposed is not going to bring her back to you - it just lets the fantasy continue on for much longer and get more entrenched. And if she does choose to leave over the exposure? Well, at least that will bring your M to a quick end, rather than this slow torture that you're putting yourself through.

EVERY WS says this stuff! Read the other "just found out" threads! She may believe that she "never had these feelings" or whatever, but it is in all likelihood a part of the "fog", the rewriting of history that is a part of the justification for having an affair.

Don't get sucked into this. Regardless of what happens, at some point, your W DID have these feelings for you, and can again if she would end the A.

Continue Plan A. Part of Plan A is to avoid relationship talks with your WW.

I know you are right...I feel so weak right now. I guess I"m starting to ask myself "is this really an A ?" or is this my wife just moving on in life b/c she's already made up her mind?

I know that's crazy to think, but that's what I'm doing.

You fight it with everything you have. Doesn't mean you will win, but you will know that if you lose, it won't be bacause you didn't try.

Also, it is probably very difficult for you to see this right now, but through this fight, you will learn a lot about yourself, who you REALLY are, and what really is important to you. However it works out, there is a process you are going to have to go through. Whether that process is recovery and rebuilding the M, or divorce and moving on with life, you will have to go through it, and both ways have thier challenges. So you do everything you can to bring about the outcome that you want, and in doing so, you are setting yourself up to succeed even if the outcome is otherwise. Thing is, as you grow and learn, you will see that whichever way it goes, YOU will become a better person in the process.

Sounds cheesy, but I believe it is true.

Also: expose this A to her principal at work.

It will not be acceptable to him that they are involved in adultery. You might even ask him what the other parents at the school would think if they found out that he knew and didn't do anything about the situation. Not a threat, just a question, you know?

I've lived a long time, and in all that time, I have never personally known or been acquainted with, a married couple who maintained "that special, spiritual feeling" 100% of the time. See, that's just it. Marriage isn't based on "feelings" because those come and go depending on which way the wind blows... it's based on commitment, in spite of your feelings.

What your wife is saying is common fogspeak. Please don't take it to heart.

It sounds like exposure has really gotten her attention. Good job. Carry on with Plan A whenever you can and ignore her professions of no feelings of love.

I don't have any advice for you other than to expose to her superiors at work. Just do it already. If you want your situation to improve you are going to have to take this step. It's time to [censored] or get off the pot. I don't want to hear any updates until you've done this.

ILA,

You need to realize that for the most part I ONLY post to other BH's, and they normally consist of one of two types of posts, because there are basically 2 types of BH's ... Those who will move heaven and earth to save their marriages and do whatever is necessary to stop their WW's affairs ... and then there are those BH's who have ZERO self-respect and are too paralyzed by fear to take any meaningful action to help themselves.

Which category do you think you fall under???

You have dabbled at exposure, but not enough to have any effect on your WW, and have AVOIDED the hard things that may make a difference, but possibly make your WW upset.

IT NEVER CEASES TO AMAZE ME THAT A BH WOULD BE WORRIED THAT HIS WW WOULD GET UPSET OVER HIS EFFORTS TO STOP HER AFFAIR.

If you don't have the "stones" to stand up for yourself, when she is intentionally humiliating you, just what is it that makes you think you are an attractive option for her???

Women HATE clingy, begging, whining weinies!!!

The ONLY person in this whole cluster#$%& that you can have any type of control over is YOU, and until you get some self-confidence and start ACTING like a man who deserves RESPECT, you won't get any from your WW, or anyone else for that matter.

Personally, I'd cut my losses and start over as the NEW AND IMPROVED ILA, but that's your call. In the meantime, I'd become the best person I could become ... physically, mentally and emotionally ... so that whether I chose to attempt recovery or start over, I'd be in a position to learn from this experience so I would not have to experience anything like it again.

Revelation: I understand what you are saying and I know you are right for the most part. I do feel like I've been working hard at this. I've thought about nothing else 24 hours a day for the 5 weeks this has been going on. In the last 24 hours I've gotten the family that had the most parental influence over my W (not her real family) tell W that they won't accept her in their house for what she's done. I also exposed to a co-worker and had my W get very upset that I was "screwing with her career". I'm working my [censored] off to save this marriage and won't give up (even if I was fighting doubts this morning).

I was a little unsure b/c I finally heard my W accepting all that we HAVE had, coupled with that which she feels is the deal breaker....and she was telling me in all honesty (although it may have been foggy honesty). That's the first REAL, honest talk we've had since this happened. It is easy to believe her and it did set me back a bit....but I will NOT quit on this, I promise.

I want to hear how her session went with her counselor today and maybe work that angle just a bit while the door is open to it. But, after that I will absolutely pick up the pressure again.

Thanks for the prodding and tough love!

If you think that she had a "real, honest" talk with you then I have a bridge to sell you. You need to keep the pressure cranked up. She is having these talk to try and manipulate you into backing off. Her hinting that exposing to her employer would be a "dealbreaker" is a threat so you will allow her to continue her affair unimpeded. She's manipulating you with fear alternating with having long talks with you. If you want to kill this affair, you need to man up and fight to stop it. She's your wife, are you just going to stand there and take it? She's your wife, she doesn't get to screw some coworker without consequences. It's called tough love. I know you are scared, but you've got to trust us, we've all been through this. She'll raise he11 for a week or two after you expose and say all sorts of mean things to hurt you, but you got to realize she's just a junkie who is lashing out because you've ruined the fantasy of her affair. It will blow over after a while. You just need to do whatever you can to get NC established. NC IS THE KEY! Take back the CONTROL!

I'm glad you recognized it for what it was ... NOW DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL!!!

She has told you where her "soft spot" is ... EXPOSE TO HER SUPERVISORS!!!

Think of it this way:

1st ... If you have any chance at recovering your marriage, there will need to be NO CONTACT for life between your WW and the OM.

2nd ... Since they work together, that means at least one of them will have to quit or be fired.

3rd ... Exposing to the Board of Education (or principal) will likely achieve #2, so exposure to her work helps achieve NC and STOP THE A. ITS A WIN-WIN SITUATION FOR YOU!!!

Yes, she will be furious, but why should you care. You didn't make these actions necessary ... SHE DID ... by her own actions. You are just doing what is necessary to protect your family.

Now ... DO WHAT IS NECESSARY!!!

HA! I was mad at MyRev when he gave me that talk.

ILA,

My waywardxGF had the same issue of cheating to get out of relationships.

My suspicion is that your wife has borderline personality disorder. That lack of spiritual connection is her thinking that you could fill the void in her heart.

That's why she has cheated to end all of her relationships.
She leaves relationships when things get too complicated for men who initially fill that void. Then eventually they let her down and she seeks out a new man to fill that void.

Cehck out the site www.bpdcentral.com and google boderline personality disorder and look at the criteria. If she does have BPD then the criteria will make a lot of sense.

Tyk....but now???

Now he's not mad because it saved his marriage. I would advise you to take the same advice.

That's why I was asking...I don't know everyone's story yet and was hoping that would be the response. I like hearing that people save their marriages through all this crap!

Thanks

Well, I wrote a long letter to my W last night that I'm going to mail to her today so she receives it at her Aunt's house tomorrow. I'm sure that she is feeling like she accomplished her goal Sunday night of convincing me that we were through....I definitely made it to easy on her. But, she also showed a lot of emotion and her heart was open at times as we discussed our the good parts of our relationship. Her appointment with a spiritual advisor at church got delayed until tomorrow.

I simply wanted to try to appeal to her deep feelings, reminder her of all of the good things we've shared, and hit this from a bit of a spiritual angle myself. I didn't plead with her or beg her at all in this letter. Just reinforced how I knew where we were, why we were here, what our future will hold, and how special our connection to each other really is...even though she can't find it right now.

I have re-read it this morning to make sure it really is what I want to do and say....and I really believe it is. I can't help but cry as I re-read my own letter.....I know it will evoke some tears from her. I still sense a little bit of indecision on her part whether or not we should be through....I think she knows all that we DO still have. But, she also is convinced that she needs to pursue her feelings for OM. I just thought that this might be an opportunity to really tug at her heart strings and put even more doubt into her heart and her cloudy mind.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this. I'm know I'm not supposed to talk about relationships right now....but this really feels like an opportunity that I have to take. Depending on her response to this, I'm ready to back off for a while and let the process work. At least I'll know that this powerful, emotional, seed is planted.

I think I've made the decision finally to expose to her principal and assistant principal at work....they both attended our wedding and one even helped as our photographer. This is a difficult step for me as I just don't know how it will turn out....but I know you guys are right and trust what you tell me....what DO I have to lose, right? Her emotions are on the run right now as she's really been hurt by having family members tell her she's no longer welcomed and her finiding out that I finally talked to a co-worker of hers. (btw, she told me yesterday she talked that this girl and W is no longer mad at me for telling her....I'm sure W gave her side of the story and convinced this girl....but at least there's more pressure and more doubt).

So, just thought I'd throw that out there...I hope this doesn't backfire but I don't think it will. So far the few times that W has read something I've written (a letter 1-1/2 weeks into this and a list of things I worte that I admired about her which she stumbled across b/c it was left on my desk at home)...she's responded kindly to both and it sounded like they make her "feel". We'll see how this goes and then move on to the next step.

Thanks for reading.
ILA

Why is it that every time I am alone and thinking about things, I start to get my hopes up...then every time I talk to my W I feel like all is lost? Is this typical? I had the W on the phone yesterday evening for a minute and then she cut me off and said she had to go b/c she was meeting OM for dinner and she didn't think she should be on the phone w/ me when he arrived.... of all things!

This morning she called back to ask if I was ok b/c she was having doubts if she should have said that to me. I couldn't understand why she cared enough to call and ask. But then it donned on me that she thinks I've given up and am willing to quit...and we are going to be friends still. She was just worried about our friendship continuing....eatin' her cake.

So, after some debate I called her this afternoon and told her I had to make sure we were on the same page. I said that although I left Sunday night with the feeling that it was all over and I know I left her w/ that impression too....that I'd come to a different conclusion since then. I said there is something so deep inside me that makes me know that we will work things out that I would never give up. I also wanted to let her know that I didn't condone her relationship with OM and I hoped she knew that.

I told her that no matter how she really felt, OM was holding her back from trying to work on our M. She said it didn't matter...even if he wasn't around she still wouldn't want to work on us. She insists that she's simply made up her mind. So I told her that I just disagreed with her and that all we had to do was put forth the effort and everything could be so much better than we ever thought. She just insists that she's so done with me.

God it is so hard to hear her continue to deny everything we ever had....just 6 months after we got married. So I told her I sent her a letter and asked her to take it to heart. She said she would. That was it.

I know she's starting to doubt whether it's right to continue with OM right now. With more family pressure, she's leaning more towards just taking time away from everything and everybody for a while....but she just won't give me a second thought. I said I can't just understand how she could check out completely without trying....she claims a lot of it is due to how I"ve handled this whole situation." When you hear that it scares you to keep exposing.

But, I'll keep exposing and keep fighting. Looks like no quick fix so I guess I'll plan A to the best of my ability for a while.

ILA,

No more writing long letters. It will only hurt your situation. Nothing will help your situation except getting NC w/ OM established and some well executed plan A. Here are the do's and don'ts of plan A.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

I understand...it's just so hard. With W not living at home it makes it so difficult. I can't keep tabs on what she's doing and I know she's pretty much living her life with OM and I'm out of the picture. I already feel fully divorced.

If I talk to her and try to make small talk and not discuss issues, I feel like she thinks I'm accepting the situation and accepting that we are through.

I guess it's all about faith...plan A, expose, and hope for the best, huh?

Thanks

If you are executing a good plan A, there's no need to hope for the best. You will have a plan for the best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

After speaking yesterday to my W and telling her I wanted to make sure we are on the same page (i.e. I was not accepting the finality of our situation and insisted that we would work this out eventually), I called her this morning to give her the name of a book that was recommended by our MC (in the one and only trip we made). W had said she wanted to read it (it's about her daddy issues), so I told her I'd get the name again.

That's all the call was about and really all we discussed other than her doctor appt. for her shoulder surgery she was at. But, she sounded so unhappy and distant again. Before my talk yesterday she was happy.

I guess my question is this: Everytime she knows that I'm battling for her and trying to fix things....she barely wants to talk to me and when she does she's in this sullen mood to where she'll hardly converse with me at all. Everytime she sits me down and tells me things are absolutely though and she thinks she's convinced me of such...then she's willing to call and talk and she's happy-go-lucky because she thinks we are now conversing as "just friends".

Only when she really gets pressured does she want to sit down and talk (she has only led the discussion 3 times in 5 weeks...when she first dropped the bombshell on me that she wasn't in love anymore and she wanted out, when I confronted her on the EA, and after she had a few key family members alienate her for what she was doing) Each time she felt the need to sit me down and "convince" me that things never will have a chance and that she wants absolutely nothing to do with even trying.

It's almost like confession for her. She really tells me from her heart that it's over, she cries a little, then she feels like she's accomplished her goal and can move ahead.

I assume this is all normal? Is this the "have your cake and eat it too" scenario that she's working on?

It's sure feels nicer to have her happy and willing to talk instead of being distant and scornful, but I assume distant and scornful is where I have to keep her is it not?

Thanks
ILA

I see that you are STILL wringing your hands and doing NOTHING and looking WEAKER every day!!!

HOPING for improvement, while DOING the same things is really pretty foolish. Think about it ... just how has what you have been doing working for you???

You have one bullett with which to fight, and apparently NOW you aren't even considering exposing to the school principal (School Board) ... WHY???

EXPOSE or DIVORCE, but do SOMETHING!!!

QUIT being her DOORMAT ... women HATE weak men and will only USE them and then throw them away!!!

Do you think it would be beneficial to go to the school principal with the OM's W? I don't know if she'd do it or not....but I thought it my carry more clout that way.

I've decided to contact W and OM's school prinicpal(s) to expose. I want to see if they can meet me for a sit-down soon. I'm also going to call OM's W tonight to see if she wants to join in.

Principal and Assist. Principal are good friends of my W (although her bosses) and both actually attended our wedding 6 mo. ago. School doesn't have a policy against dating that I know of. W actually talked about it in front of me, saying "it would be sort of weird for a while" but a few of their friends/co-workers already knew (their side of the story of course). I already told one of W's co-workers and respected peers and W flipped out.....but next day W talked to her and W said she was no longer angry with me, which means W got her convinced of her side of the story.

I know W and OM will respond to questions with, we have already told spouses we want divorce/or may even claim they've filed. They will blame everything on spouses and say this is truly what they want to do. Of course principals will tend to believe my W's rebuttal more than my plea I'm sure.

Any thoughts on what I might say that will make them take some action? Without a policy of not dating for teachers I don't know how much good this will do. They may just never even address the problem.

Help? Ideas? I hope I can meet them this weekend to talk.
Thanks

I would write a letter telling them of the affair, your decision to continue to work on the marriage in spite of the affair, and your expectation that they do the right thing and see to it that this behavior is not tolerated at their school. I would also include anything that you know that happened on the school grounds, even including things like texting. I would copy the principal, the superintendant, and the school board on the letter (some people might not want these kinds of people teaching their children). As for the content, maybe you could start a thread asking what to include. I would try and ask Mr. Wondering, he is good at these things.

You tell him what's going on and that you are trying to save you marriage. You ask him how it looks to have two married people involved in an adulterous relationship working at his school, and ask him what kind of example that sets.

I will bet you anything that type of behavior is covered under some type of "ethical conduct" clause in the employee manual, and it isn't going to be well recieved, no matter what your WW thinks or has told you. If he appears reluctant to act, ask him if he thinks you'd be better off discussing it with the school board and the state board of education. Last thing he will want is them all up in his [censored] about something like this. DO NOT threaten him. ASK him if he thinks that might help. He'll get the drift.

Bring the truth, be calm and rational and make sure he knows that you are trying to save your marriage, not attack your WW. Also let him know that you wouldn't be upset if he felt he had to fire both of them.

ILA,

MyRev probably means well but his pain is showing in his response to you. Pay attention to the productive part of his post and make changes. Hope this doesn't stop you from moving forward. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It will take a while before you realize that communicating with a WS is hurtful. We can tell you but until your mind and heart get in sync, you will continue to try and treat the WS as if she is your W. In reality she isn't your W, she is a horrible person parading in your W's body.

Yea..... we use the term alien coming from the mothership as a way to differentiate between our real spouse and the WS.

Given that point, learn to tell the difference between the 2 and work on your communication skills when dealing with each one. ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for exposure, make sure the ones you are exposing to understand the purpose of your exposure. It isn't a revenge or gossip thing. U R fighting for your M and want their support (if possible). Sometimes letting others know you appreciate and respect their support in turn makes them want to help you. Of course you should also let them know that while you w/b willing to hear their POV and support info, you ask they respect your decisions.

Set the foundation for support. You'd be surprised where your support can come from . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

With all due respect, Orchid ... and I mean that ... I don't think you understand the BH/WW dynamic that many BH's have a hard time dealing with, and I don't see it addressed here that much.

I understand that this point is "arguable", but BH's often "freeze up" from the wrath of their WW's ... in effect they become paralyzed by fear of their WW's and take to heart their words of "if you interfere, this will drive a permanent wedge between us" and just shut down ... too afraid to do much of anything and just wander aimlessly confused.

For some reason, this rarely happens in the BW/WH scenario ... I believe, because most wives aren't so easily "snowed" by their husbands.

With BH's ... if you appeal to their "manhood" ... they will often respond, albeit reluctantly, and almost immediately see an improvement in their situation. It may never get back to where they wish it to be, but they start regaining their confidence, feel better about themselves, and at least give themselves a shot at recovery ... if that's what they're seeking.

It is my belief that many WW's went wayward after they lost respect for their H's, due to problems within the M pre-A, then when the A opportunity presents itself, they magnify the BH's shortcomings out of proportion and then project those missing qualities onto the OM (often mistakenly, as the OM will likely never live up to that fantasy ideal the WW has created).

Once the BH's starts acting like he deserves respect, he starts to look better to the WW and the OM looks much weaker in comparison. I can't explain it (mainly because I simply don't understand women's thought processes like I do men's), but it will often hold true if there was anything worth saving in the M pre-A, and the WW still has some love for the BH. There is just something about a strong, decisive, and loving BH that is very attractive to a WW, especially if that WW "perceived" that her BH had lost interest in her pre-A.

... and on the flip side, nothing is more unattractive to a WW, than a BH who continues to appear weak and allows her to continue to disrespect him through her own actions, due to his INACTIONS.

I agree for the most part with MyRevs assessment and intentions.

I do not have enough experience with this to be able to say anything with certainty, but it really does seem to me that the quicker a BH can get his legs back under him and begin to assert himself, the better. Its better for the BH, and I believe it is better for the M, giving a greater chance of recovery for several reasons.

BH's that let thier wives walk on them for too long are going to build up a HUGE amount of resentment, moreso than those that step up quickly and put an end to the abuse they are willing to tolerate. There are of course many factors involved and every situation is unique, but I think there is a tipping point beyond which a BH should not go. When a WW starts openly flaunting her infidelity, ridiculing and rubbing the BH's nose in it, that's a very bad state. It means the WW has lost ALL respect for the BH and no longer cares what he thinks, and it means the BH is going to quickly come to hate the WW. Once hate sets in, its hard to get back.

If a BH will step up and start to act in his own best interests, then this situation is less likely to arise. Many times stepping up checks the WW's behavior and the A ends. If not, stepping up will at the very least result in a BH removing himself from the abuse via Plan B before he allows his WW to so flagrantly disrespect him that hate grows.

I know Harley says Plan A for six months or longer. In some cases I completely understand that, but in others, including many occuring here on this board now, I think the BH has allowed his WW to go too far and even if the WW does eventually come back, the damage that has been done is going to be even harder than usual to recover from. I think its possible to recognize this point and prevent it with both the enforcement of stricter boundaries by the BH and/or the willingness to implement Plan B sooner.

I speak from my own experience, but also from reading many other threads. In many cases, once the BH steps up and lays it on the line, the WW quickly realizes that her actions are about to have irreversible consequences and returns to the marriage. If not, and a good Plan A has been executed then there really is no significant harm done. Theres little difference between a WW disrespecting a submissive BH or a proactive BH as far as the WW is concerned, there is a big difference in the mind of the BH, which is, I think, the critical difference.

Wow, that was very well put! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Makes me wish all over again that I'd found MB when trying to cope with FWH's As...INSTEAD of finding OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> *sigh*

Lori

Lori,

Thanks for posting. Since I don't understand the "thought processes" of WW's during this crazy time. Would you be willing to share your insights about how WW view their BH's relative to respect and asserting themselves after they've discovered their WW's A?

I would really like to hear what you have to say on the subject, and it may be very beneficial to ILA to get some insight into how his WW views his current status and efforts (or lack thereof).

Hmmm....well, it's been a very long time since my A (13+ years), but I'll try.

I think I was really of two minds about how I wanted my FWH to act after he found out about my A (which I guess some would call a "Revenge A"). On one hand, I thought I wanted him to just leave me alone to continue on with my "feel-good" relationship with OM.

On the other hand, when H started to step up and actively fight against my A, I realized I felt stirrings of respect for him...something I hadn't felt in a while before that. It also said to me that he actually CARED about our marriage, about me...that he was actually paying attention to me. That he was willing to put some effort into keeping me, and not just because he didn't want anyone else to have me.

Mind you, I didn't act like I appreciated it! I acted mad and defensive when H did anything that threatened my "independence." But, it got harder and harder to convince myself that independence was what I wanted/needed. H did a lot of the right things...he basically Plan A'd me. Started acting more aware of my needs, was kinder to me and the kids, put more effort into being a good husband and dad than he ever had before. It made me really mad at first...I remember saying "too little, too late"...but it DID have a positive effect on me.

Deep down I knew all I was looking for anyway was to feel loved and cherished. I'd much prefer to get that feeling from the man I married and had children with than some dude who would have sex with another man's wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I don't know if any of that rambling can help anyone, but that's a little of what I remember thinking way back then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lori

I guess I should also say that, while my H did a LOT of things right with regard to ending my A, he also did one HUGE thing wrong...he started confiding in a friend/co-worker, who coincidently was unhappy in her marriage, too. You can guess what happened with all that. By the time my A was totally over, his EA had begun.

Maybe our convoluted story isn't the best one to get advice from. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> But, at least it has a happy ending! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Lori......boy does that help. I don't think you could have put it any clearer exactly what it is that I'm seeing and feeling from my W. Only when I really start getting somewhere and she sees how hard I'm fighting, does she feel the need to sit me down and convince me to give up. I think, like you're saying, that is because she is getting defensive and mad about threatening her independence. When she thinks I've given up she's an entirely different person, couldn't be more night and day. Then she's happy-go-lucky b/c we are just freinds in her mind.

Your quote (sorry, I haven't figured out how to insert quotes yet...rookie!) about "deep down I knew...." sure makes me feel good. If anything gives me hope, that does!

I also talked to OMW for 2-1/2 hours last night! I'm glad to hear that, although she's not fighting quite as aggressively, she is fully committed to saving her M and her H (which I wasn't sure about). Also got lots of feedback about how caring and civil OM has been to her recently. I think that, too, goes right back to the quote you made, Lori. OMW and I are really working together now, but she's a little afraid to be too agressive b/c she's worried about losing her daughter (claims OM has a really good lawyer).

No woman will ever be as caring as the man, and no man will ever be as tough as the woman (that came from our MC)....just the way M&W's souls are. That's what I see right now. OMW is seeing the emotional attachement to their M and my W is just being tough and stubborn with me. I think, like Lori said, deep down they want nothing more than to fall back in love with their spouse and their family. Lori, that comments about the plan-A stuff making you mad at first, the "too little too late" reference....that couldn't be more dead on. That's exactly what is happening in my situation. I'm glad to know that it does get through....just can't be realized yet. All of this shows me just how important and affective plan A can be.

Great feedback, all of you. MyRev, Tyk, Orchid...you guys are awesome! I am making strides to quit being such a wuss and start standing up for my respect. It's tough for me b/c I know my emotions drive me more than some men. That's probably why I'm so committed to fighting for my W though too!

I'm going to set up talk with pricipal...OMW was all in favor of it too. She didn't want to be involved though b/c she's scared of losing her kid. I told her I'd do the dirty work even though it could hurt my chances with my W....it does have to be done.

Thanks all. Tremendous help here today!!!!!
ILA

Glad my thoughts were of some help to you, ILA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If there's one thing my marriage has proven, it's that there is always hope! We couldn't have screwed our relationship up more if we'd tried...but, we didn't give up (at least at the same time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). It took us a while, but we created a good life for ourselves and our kids. We're best friends, and have been for years. (Thanks in large part to the tools I got from MB! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

Just keep doing the best Plan A you can, but don't forget Plan A is not just about getting her back; it's about positive changes for YOU! And don't give too much credence to what she says right now...I said some really stupid crap that embarrasses me to this day.

Hang in there.

Lori

Thanks Lori....just got off the phone with W. She had left message earlier today about her brother (not real brother, but "brother" from the "other" family that took her in during high school when her parents moved away...this family means a LOT to my W). Apparently brother, who is 22 yrs. old, was partying last night and texted W at 4 am, drunk. She ended up talking to him. Brother mentioned a threatening voice mail from OM that I'd saved and played for the whole "other family". Of course, my W was pissed I played it for them. She didn't yell at me, just voiced her displeasure. I danced around it a little then quickly started to shoot back about me not needing to tell them anything. Her friends and family have made their own decisions b/c she has decided to walk out on her marriage. I also told her that I wasn't going to stand for her calling to blame me every time a family member had the guts to stand up and tell her how they really feel.

I told her that I knew she'd lost respect for me and that's why we'd drifted apart, that she questioned whether I really cared enough about her.....but that's all I'm doing is trying to show her how much I do care and how willing I am to fight for her and our M. A couple minutes of that kind of stuff. She didn't really respond, as usual. Just sat there and listened until finally saying, "that's enough". She hung up in an angry mood, and I left saying "just know my intentions are good".

I think the fact that she read my extremely heart-felt letter last night (I assume she did) is why she wasn't screaming at me on the phone. I sense she's understanding just how much I care and part of me has to believe she appreciates it deep down. But, all she can show me is anger right now.

I don't intend to keep getting into these type of discussions...just want to plan A and avoid the relationship and A talk, but it seems like this is the only time we talk b/c she's not living at home. It seems hard to plan A and hard to avoid these types of discussions in our current situation.

Lori, does any of her reactions sound typical to you? I'm curious. Do I just have to leave her alone for a while?

ILA,

I'm glad some of the "tough love" stuff is getting through. It really is that important for you to take back your self-respect and confidence, and exposing to the school authorities is a GREAT step in that direction. Remember, you didn't cause any of this, its not your fault ... you are simply fighting for your family like any good husband/father would do ... NEVER apologize to your WW for that.

Just remember that after exposure, your WW will go ballistic. Others here are much better at scripting your responses, so get their input and be prepared for the venom she will spew. As long as you know its coming and are prepared for it, its impact on you will be greatly lessened, because you will understand the source of the venom.

I'm sorry for the harsh words ... I really am a BH supporter. We BH's tend to get lost in our own "fog" at times, and it often takes another man questioning our "manhood" to break through that fog and reignite our self-respect ... once you start standing up for yourself to outsiders (us), then it makes for an easier transition to stand up for yourself to your WW.

Now that you've re-found your "voice" ... don't make me bring the "wood" to you again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Please take my advice with a grain of salt...there are others here who are far more knowledgeable than I about the details of implementing Plan A.

With that said, it sounds like you're trying to educate her and to make her understand how you're feeling/thinking. That won't work. Just makes you sound self-righteous and it's annoying to a WS. K know that's silly and totally not fair...but, remember, the thinking of an active WS is stupid.

If she calls to let you know she's displeased about something or other, just diffuse it with as few words as possible..."Yes, I'm sure it does hurt to know your brother thinks so poorly of you right now. I hate that you're hurting." Then move the convo on to happier stuff..."Have you seen the new *** movie. It's hilarious!"...or bring up something funny or interesting that you saw/heard that you know she might be interested in. Don't sound TOO hardy-har-har, but just try to stay calm and smile when you talk. It helps.

The heart-felt letter was ok, but I wouldn't bother doing that again until there is NC.

I think the "reverse babble" concept that Orchid is so good at would be very helpful for you!

Lori

Lori, you're exactly right....it does make me sound self-righteous to her and I know how much it annoys her. That's why she'll listen for a few minutes then finally say, "ok, enough, I don't want to talk about this"....I know it, but I still do it for some reason! I'm trying to take steps to stop it now though.

Good suggestons, I love what you're saying. Input from someone who's been in her mindset is soooooo helpful....thank you, thank you, thank you!

My Rev, thank you too. I appreciate your willingness to stay on my [censored] about this stuff. It does help to hear criticism from others and it makes me act. I'm going to ask her principal to please not let anyone know I came to him....especially not my W. If I can avoid the venom, I want to.....but I will also prepare myself for the fallout. MUCH appreciated!

ILA,

Let me follow up on something Lori mentioned ... she posted:



When talking with your WW ... be positive, even happy. It's something I ran across when I was researching what to do in my own situation ... I implemented it and it seemed to work great. The theory is: Women will not leave a happy man.

I know it sounds strange (and simplistic), but it works and I think is what Lori was getting at in her quote above. There is something about you being happy, when you should be falling apart, that puts a WW completely off of her game and makes her question "what the he11 is going on???", which is really what you are looking for ... something/anything for her to "stop and think" a little about what she's doing and what "you're" doing.

Keep in mind, the most effective stuff in dealing with a WW's A is counter-intuitive to what you would think of by yourself. Remember a few day/weeks ago ... you were trying to make sense of stuff that makes no sense ... now you're learning to fight fire with fire, so to speak.

Good Luck!!!

Screw that. The principal knows because you told him, and you told him because you want her to stop f'ing someone she works with. And if you can think of anyone else to tell that might help stop her f'ing him, you'll do it as soon as the thought occurs to you. If she doesn't like you telling the truth, she can change her behavior.

You aren't some sneak gossiping to your wife's boss. You're a husband who's W is cheating on him who is trying to save his marriage. You're telling him because it is in his best interests to not have this type of thing going on under his charge, and you want him to do something about it. Make no bones about the fact that him acting in his own best interests happens to coincide with your interests. If you play this right, your W will get suspended very soon and probably fired. Oh well. . .sure sucks that they don't want adulterers teaching children, doesn't it?

Remain Fonzie cool when she explodes about this. And she WILL. My WW reacted like a cat with turpentine on its [censored].

OK, ILA ... Tyk beat me to the "wood" ... but you deserved what he sent your way.

We were just discussing, YOU standing up for YOURSELF and YOUR M ... now is not the time to go soft and be a weasel going behind your WW's back.

You didn't do ANYTHING wrong ... your WW did!!!

REMEMBER WHAT LORI SAID ... WW's respect when their BH's stand up for the M and for them. It makes them feel wanted by you being willing to fight for them PUBLICLY, while the OM looks weak because he has to sneak around.

ILA...wowsers...you are getting some Type A, right on the mark help here. I'll chime in a bit, and see if what I suggest makes sense. Your W is having an affair, and she lives completely in the fog, and the only things that make any sense to her are completely wrong. When I first arrived on these forums, waywards were described a lot as aliens, because they behaved as if some stole their brains.

I was coached to try to reach a position of "loving detachment", which makes it easier to do what needs to be done (exposure to the principal), without feeling bad or guilty about it.

As has beens said many times here, affairs are very much like addictions. If your brother was a crack addict, you would love him with all your being, but you would sort out the crap he spews as a result of the drug. Your W is no different, but you are making the mistake of buying in to what she is spewing. Try to reach that level of "loving detachment" is almost critical in doing some of the things necessary to save your marriage. It is critical to the point of letting some of the vile and stupid things she will say just roll off your back.

It is when you take her words to heart that your fears overwhelm your ability to take the necessary steps to stop the affair and give your marriage a chance for recovery.

Please listen to the advice you are receiving, and finish this exposure matter. You marriage cannot survive having another man in the middle of it, but it CAN survive your W's anger! We've seen it here hundreds of times. They go ballistic for a few days, then return to their "abnormal" state, still trying to keep a husband and an affair partner.

Stay well rested, as best you can, and eat well, and keep yourself healthy enough to continue this battle, because it will wear you down.

Stay with it... it will all be worth it!

Gotcha, Tyk.....I just sent an email to the assistant principal asking that he call me so we can set up a meeting. I've pulled the trigger.....very nervous about this step I must admit....but I know you all are right.

My Rev: I understand the concept very well.....the reason my W left me was that "she just wanted to be happy". I've heard that a bunch of times. I have tended to be very lethargic, depressed, etc. much of our relationship....those are just personal issues I have to work on...and want to I might add. I know that is why she fell out of love with me. She wants a happy husband more than all else. That's why I understand now why plan A can be SO effective in my case. This whole scenario has really woken me up in my life and convinced me to take the steps necessary for ME to be a healthier happier person. I'm trying to do it already with PC, joined the gym and got a trainer, etc.,etc.

I've let W know as much as I possibly can how much I care and how hard I'm going to fight for her. Now I just have to put on the happy face, and play nice. That's what will get her back....I know that now. Of course we have to get rid of this other guy too....but I've got tons of people on my side on that.

Guys, I hear what you're saying and believe you. I guess what is hard in my particular case is that my W LOVES her teaching job, was named teacher of the year last year, and would indeed flip out if she found out I went to them. But, maybe that's even more incentive to hit her where it means the most?

Before it was the ILUBINILWU deal....now she claims she's not even sure she loves me or cares about me anymore b/c of "the way I've handled this situation". Part of me can't help but wonder if that is true. She also claims that it wouldn't matter if OM didn't even exist....she still wouldn't want to work on our M. Those words can't help but make me wonder and make me afraid. Plus, all her family and mine too thinks I need to back off....it is confusing!

I'll do my best though, I promise. Trust me, I think about saving my M 24 hours a day and won't quit.

ILA,

Let me share something with you ... I had this same "awakening" that you are experiencing. In my case, it came during my search for answers (much like you're doing now), and I ran across that old "Serenity Prayer" ... you know the one that goes ...

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


... and just like you are experiencing, I had "MyRevelation", hence the username.

I finally understood, that all I could do was change things within "MYSELF" and I found the courage to do just that. On the flip side, I also found the "Serenity" to accept the things that I couldn't change. I had a problem with Angry Outbursts, and once I had MyRevelation, they stopped almost immediately, and my WW noticed the change nearly as fast.

You can't change the whole world ... ONLY yourself, but that takes COURAGE. If you do that successfully, AND your WW still has "any" feelings left for you, then you all have a chance, and at this point, isn't that all you are really looking for ... "a chance" to recover?

Plan A question:

Because she's living away from me and spending time with OM instead of me, I really miss seeing her. I want to spend time with her and try to make her happy, have fun together, plan-A the ****** out of her......but I'm not sure the proper way to do that.

If I were to ask her out on a "date" is that a good thing right now? I'm sure she'd decline and likely already has plans with OM....but I figure at least it creates conflict in her mind, right? Is asking my W out on a date right or wrong? I hate having to feel like I'm competing with OM for her time...but I know that's reality.

When her mouth is open, she's spewing fog.

Stop hanging on every word she "spews".

Go about your business, doing what WILL work to stop the affair.

Stop being paralyzed by fear. What if's will get nothing done.

Stay with the forums and get advice from people who have BT/DT and have the tee-shirt. We know what works, because we lived it, for weeks and months...

Your W is an alien, love her from an intelligent, caring, arms-length away...loving detachment.

Have faith...believe all you do will work.

Happy face, strong disposition..."I will do whatever is necessary to save this marriage".

ILA,

Slow down and "THINK" ... haven't you been told that your WW will say everything you just posted???

You "KNOW" that her job is her "soft spot", use that bit of knowledge.

AND FINALLY, neither of your families know what they are talking about ... they have never dealt with this stuff ... these people here have. You've been told that all of this in counter-intuitive, that's why your family doesn't understand what you're doing, but you have the KNOWLEDGE of wayward behavior. It's almost like you will get to the point that you will know how your WW is going to act before she does it, because they ALL act, do and say the same things. In effect, you have the wayward's playbook ... use it to your advantage.

There is a certain calmness to be gained from their predictability.

Understood. Thanks.

Ok to call and ask W on a "date" to try to plan -A better??

ILA,

This is the first time that I have posted to you--I am the FWW of MyRev. I just want to offer a few words of encouragement. First, expose the affair. She will be very upset, but with them working together, that is the only real chance you have to save this marriage---MAKE THE A STOP!! Secondly, Plan A your butt off. When MyRev stopped his AO's and started acted happy, it floored me. I noticed his attitude change immediately (he had told me about how the Serenity Prayer changed his whole outlook) and I responded almost instantaneously. He was happy, and that made ME want to be around him all of the time! I remembered why I had fallen in love with him in the first place. We started going on "dates" (still do once a week at least) and having fun again. With a solid Plan A, you will become a better person for YOU--not just for someone else. Make ILA the best person that he can be, and watch how your entire life will change.

MyRev and I have learned so much from the language of MB--we use it daily (Love Bank, Love Busters, EN's,etc.). Use these principles and keep applying them--they really do work.

Good luck to you! We're rooting for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She'll be more likely to go on a date with you once the A is over.

It won't hurt to ask her, but don't expect her to say yes. Just keep asking, politely, and don't push it.

And yes, all WS's say that ALL of that stuff. Its how they rationalize the decision to have an A. When she says "it has nothing to do with him". Say "oh, that's good, then you won't mind not contacting him again so we can try to work this out, right?" blah blah, on and on, until the A is over. Then, you have a chance. That's why we're telling you, do whatever you can to end the A. Until its over, there's no point in talking to her about the marriage. Until then, you become like the pull string doll. WS: "blah blah" YOU: "I know honey, I believe we can work this out and build a marriage that makes us both happy."

Yeah, Tyk, that's what I figured....I'll keep politely asking but not pushing the issue. I think at some point I need to try to get her back home....even if the A hasn't ended. It will make plan A alot more effective.

FogFree....thanks for the input. Nothing better than feedback from FWW's....it is so valuable b/c it is exactly what I'm seeing from my W.

What a great day....thanks for all the support......everyone!!!

My Rev: Just noticed your post about serenity prayer...I overlooked it at first. I hear you. One big problem my W always had was a former sports gambling addiction I had. This is actually the ONLY thing we ever fought about in 5-1/2 years. Should have fought about other stuff, but we just didn't communicate well enough to do that!

I stopped the gambling on my own about 1-1/2 yrs. ago after getting engaged, but never sought professional help...so W never believed me. Recent behaviors from me were similar to those of an addict...no energy or drive, depression, watching too much sports, etc....and that made her unhappy and she thought I was doing it again. In reality it was all stress driven, unhealthy life style, and her sprialing down with me....but she didn't see that..she only saw the addiction creeping back in. That's the #1 reason I think she gave up.

I've started going to GA meetings to convince her I mean business and to make sure I never do fall back into that. I am fully confident I won't, but getting help can only make me better. I know that made her happy when I told her I went.....but she was still "too little too late" with me. I'll keep working on it though and I'm sure it makes an impact down deep inside of her. I just need to start plan-A'ing better to show her my happiness and success and maybe she'll start to come around.

Thanks for that story....it is inspiring to me.
ILA

ILA,

It is MyRev's recollection from your story that the OM is a HS baseball coach--if this is accurate, then allow me to give you my perspective. MyRev and I are former high school and college athletes--we have been involved with MANY different types of coaches. I can tell you from my PERSONAL small community involvement with high school coaches that they are VERY IMMATURE and CHILDISH in personality-regardless of age. (Please--any HS coaches out there that may be reading this--I am speaking from MY personal experiences!!)
If you will just Plan A your butt off, and show your WW what ORIGINALLY ATTRACTED HER TO YOU, then your M has a much higher possibility of success. Play to those STRENGTHS that attracted her to you, and EXPOSE the weaknesses of the OM's character.

MyRev and I will be off-line for a few days while we enjoy a few days of Recreational Companionship with our English Setter bird dogs over the MLK long weekend. But we will have you in our thoughts and will check up as we can.

GOOD LUCK!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the good thoughts. I'm actually an ex-college baseball player myself....so I understand what you mean...OM's W is also a high school soccer coach!

Here's what SUCKS: I just found out that W and OM are going away to Vegas for the 3 day weekend and there's nothing I can do. I even asked her if that's who she was going with and she told me, although a little reluctantly. She knows it hurts me, but doesn't care right now.

This is going to be a tough, tough weekend thinking about them in a Vegas hotel room all weekend! (that's the same thing we did shortly after we met....but we stayed a whole week....and I know what we did!!!!) This is going to really suck.

At least it gives me a chance to talk to a lot more people while she's gone.

Well off to the gym to meet my trainer....gettin' sexy! I've lost 28 lbs. in 5 weeks....egad! And I wasn't exactly overly fat to begin with!

Thanks for all the help.

Cut her off. If she's going to Vegas, she ain't spending any of your money. That means no joint checking or credit card accounts. They need to be cancelled.

ILA,

I know that you haven't been in plan A very long, but I think it is almost time for you to go to plan B. Give plan A a couple more weeks post-exposure, but she's losing all respect for you by allowing yourself to be her doormat.

Yeah, apparenty OMW talked to OM tonight about our conversation last night....of course it got right back to my W. My W called to tell me to quit talking about her personal past to other people. Unfortunately that set us off on a quasi-argument for about 20 minutes.

Just didn't go well....she told me this is never going to work and I need to move on. She thinks she knows exactly what she's doing and claims she's very "at peace" with her decisions. Just a horrible conversation. She even got to the point that she started mentioning divorce papers and/or annullment for the first time.

This just isn't good. Man it's going to be a bad week. She even said that all I've been doing is just pushing her further away, and just like Lori said....she called me "self righteous". I know I continue to hurt the situation by getting into these little battles, but that's the only time she ever calls is to spar.

Maybe plan A is gone, I don't know? It seems pretty helpless now.

You keep allowing yourself to get caught up in her FOG-SPEAK...

When will you understand that this is what they ALL do and say.

It's right out of the wayward spouse handbook, and is predictable as the sun rising in the east.

Train yourself to STOP responding to her FOG until you learn to reverse babble, or just walk away and stop the conversations.

You are still letting her control you/paralyze you with her words.

Work YOUR plan and let her flap in the breeze.

Do not let her use Marital Assets to spend a weekend in Las Vegas with her affair partner.

Call a lawyer and get your assets in order.

Man, just freaking STOP for a bit. HOLD STILL!

THINK about what you're doing, what you're saying, who you're saying it to.

You are stuck in this cycle of reacting. STOP REACTING.

What your WW says is really for all practical purposes irrelevant. She's going to say whatever she thinks will work to get you to back off so she can engage in her A. She is going to be mean, nasty, sweet, friendly, give hope, take hope away, whatever she can in no sensible manner all with the objective of keeping you at arms length and off balance.

STOP THAT CYCLE! There's no reason to engage in a relationship discussion with someone who is demonstrating that they've checked out of the relationship, is there? Why beat your head against the wall? Why talk with her about how "its over" blah blah blah? Who cares if she thinks its over? When its over, it'll be over. Until then, do what you can to bring about the outcome you want.

Have you talked to the principal yet? I wouldn't wait on a set meeting, get your [censored] up to school, sit down in his office, and tell him WTF is going on! What you aren't getting is that in order for you to have a chance at recoverying the M, NC has to occur. Either her or OM is going to have to stop working there. So regardless of how mad it makes her, or how important her job is to her, this is going to have to happen for your M to have a chance. This isn't YOU doing this. If her job were so important to her, she probably wouldn't be sleeping with a co-worker, right? You delaying this is just allowing more things to happen, things like Vegas trips! Its gonna be hard for two unemployed people to go have a good time in Vegas, isn't it? GET ON IT!

Do whatever you can to protect your assets. Right now, before they go to Vegas would be a very good time to cut off her access to any joint finances!

Problem w/ finances is I need her's just as much as she needs mine. We can only make ends meet by pooling all of our money. It's a real fine line. If I cut everything off somehow, then I can't pay bills and then we start down the path of divorce/selling our house for a huge loss/etc.....very bad situation.

I'll be honest....I don't see how there's ANY way I'm going to get NC. They want to be together and they don't care who knows it now, what consequences there are...nothing! I don't think if they both lost their jobs it would do any good even! They don't care who they are hurting, they only believe that "we are grown people and can make our own decisions". She doesn't care that I tell her "I'm just fighting for our marriage b/c that's the most important thing in the world to me"....she says I'm dilusional and it pisses her off that I keep trying.

Even as brutally honest and blunt as she's been recently about nothing ever working out....I do believe it can and will some day. Trust me, I really do. But, the exposure isn't seeming to do any good and it's driving more and more of a wedge between us. She's starting to think I'm psychotic even though she's the one that is.

I know I've got to STOP the relationship talk all together, but I feel like I'm hopeless to try and break up the A right now. Principal hasn't called me back yet, I'm wondering if he even will? Maybe you're right I just need to go there. W is just so damn pissed about my enterference with her life that I can't help to wonder if it will do more harm than good? Like I said, I really don't think it's going to do ANYTHING to help separate them....they are so far down that path of being convinced that's what they want.

I'm just really confused. Every night I get a call from her about leaving her alone and quit talking to people about her. The other thing is, my W is a little unique in that she makes up her mind about something and there is NO changing it. That's what her older sister (best friend by far) tells me....not even she can get through to my W when she gets to this point....and I'm starting to believe it. There would have to be some extensive counseling to break W out of this cycle that she lives in, and I don't see her being willing to do it right now. It's W's defense mechanism from all the crap she had to grow up with. The more I expose, the more I talk to people, the worse things seem to get!

Since I don't see any way to break up the A, it makes me wonder if I should just let it happen, run it's course, and die on it's own....the sooner the better instead of fighting it? That sounds silly, but I feel like I have no chance against them right now and the more I fight the more I get wounded.

Man I feel like crap today. I sure understand the roller coaster, yesterday I felt good with all the great feedback I got here and after talking to OMW the night before....but now I feel no hope.

I guess I'll still try to expose to her principal(s) but after that I think I've gotten to everyone I can. I just haven't even had a chance to do much plan A b/c I never see her or talk to her much. Guess that's all I can do right now though.....and at the same time start preparing for legal protection for myself.

Brutal!

The sooner you realize there's not much special or unique about your WW, you, or your marriage, the better off you're going to be.

This situation is so normal that there's dozens of websites out there giving advice on how to deal with it. Its so normal that people make great livings counseling others in this very predictament. Its so normal that we've pretty much told you verbatim what you WW is going to do and say in response to your actions, yet you still want to do "Plan ILA". Plan ILA hasn't worked so good has it? Why keep doing it? Do you have so little self control that you can't follow a simple plan?

Hate to say it, but you have a bad attitude. I know you're going through hard times, but you need to get the attitude that you're going to fix this no matter what and get with the program! It DOESN'T mean you will succeed, no one can guarantee you that, but if there's one thing I know, if you think you're going to fail, then you ARE going to fail!

And to he11 with finances etc! Who really gives a rats [censored] about that?! If neither of you can afford to live on your own then you don't have enough to care about anyhow, right?!

Tyk, I do hear you, believe me. I know I've got the defeatist attitude today...just b/c that's where I'm at emotionally today....24 hours later that will change.

I don't think I'm going to fail or I wouldn't have been fighting this hard...I'd have walked away by now. I really do believe I will win this fight...I just haven't been patient enough to this point.

I know I'm still a rookie at this...only about 2 weeks worth of learning about A's. Many instances I read about seem to have at least a little bit of willingness from the WS to want to try or show some doubt or something. My W is just so damn adamant about things that it DOES make it hard to keep charging forward. Like you said, I keep banging my head against a wall every day.

I know I haven't followed the plan accurrately b/c I just didn't fully understand it. I'm committed to trying to do it now b/c I know that's the only way to succeed. It just seems like things get worse and worse and worse, though. It would be helpful to see some sign of improvement, no matter how small! And, everything I do or say, whether it's following the plan or not following the plan.....every single action seems to drive us further apart.

I do have faith in the system, it makes perfectly logical sense to me. Everything I read from Dr. Harley and others and everything I read here from all you great people....it all makes perfect sense. I just want some damn results....just some glimmer of hope is all. Like I said, I'm just being too impatient and am trying to solve the problem RIGHT NOW........and I'm only hurting things.

I'm just confused a lot of times by what I'm supposed to be doing. I want to plan A, but:

...I just work on myself and act "normal and happy" to her, not talk relationship, etc. but then she thinks that I'm ok with what she's doing and the A seems to grow and/or I get the impression she thinks I'm MORE of a doormat

...if I tell her I'm NOT accepting of her behavior then she wants to attack me and tell me to move on...and yes I know I've been REACTING WAY too much to that.

...exposure seems to backfire b/c it's not showing ANY results and just pisses her off so much (which I understand I should expect) and really seems to drive them closer to each other, like they are banding together to fight back

...I've been told I'm supposed to "be a man" and show W that I'm fighting for my respect and fighthing for my M, but it seems that only makes her madder too and drives her closer to OM.

I guess that's what is so confusing to me. Everytime I try to do part of the plan, it seems to have negative affects in some other way. No positives, only negatives!

I do everything I can to keep my own positive outlook, but obviously some days are tougher than others.

Do I need to learn more reverse babble, learn to walk away from situations more, am I closer to plan B already in the situation I'm in? Just confused..........obviously!

Its ok for her to be mad about certain things. She's mad because she knows that what she is doing is wrong and you are making it harder and harder for her to rationalize and justify her decisions. It creates conflict within her which manifests as anger towards you. Once the A is over and she ends the addiction she will realize that it was HER decisions and thinking that were flawed.

And its ok right now if you are driving them closer together. Because what that really means is that you and OMW are ISOLATING them! What that means is that they will eventually turn on each other. Here are these two people destroying thier own families, basing thier decisions on lies and fantasy, and you think THEY are going to be able to work it out with each other? No way! What happens when OM has to go to his kid's BDay party and your W isn't invited? Basically, don't worry about that. The faster reality sets in on the affair relationship the faster it will fall apart.

That's what we mean about this stuff being counter-intuitive ILA. What seems to be a bad sign is often in fact expected and part of a well executed plan.

Have you talked to the pricipal yet? Why not? :P

Yeah, I realize that, Tyk. Man your support is appreciated. You're so right about things being counter-intuitive....that's something so hard for me to realize b/c my brain just wants to be logical all the time, even though this is an illogical situation.

Maybe this was a mistake but I called W and told her I was sorry about the way things went last night. Said it was bringing me pain today knowing how we left things. W said she felt the same way today. I told her that we obviously had our own points of view and we both felt we were doing the right thing, unfortunatly we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I reiterated that I cannot support any of her actions, and she said she realized that. Then I told her that no matter the outcome, this is going to be a long ordeal and as weird as it sounds, we need to be able to support each other through this tough time. She agreed. I told her I just didn't want her being away for several days with both of us being pissed off at each other, that's all.

Very good, very civil conversation. My only intention was to sort of start back at square one, if you will. Patch things up just a bit (deposit to her love bank) so that I can set a baseline to start plan-A'ing her and STOP talking relationship and affair.

Do you think this was a stupid thing to do, was i way to weak again, or is this ok? It's what my gut told me to do, so I figure the counter-intuitive thing would be NOT to have done it....but I feel a little better at least.

I haven't heard from principal yet so I think I'll try to call him now as I go to lunch.

Man, I can't get any response from W's principal. Email, message with assistant....no response. I really don't think I'm going to get much support from her school. I'll keep trying though.

jmwc95...you said to cut off the joint accounts...but does it do any good? I live in CA, a community property state. If she runs up her own cards and this comes to D....then we both share the debt! I explained to her today that we don't have any money to spend...that's why I told her we couldn't go to Vegas a month ago. Unfortunatley that was a last ditch effort to save us and I didn't see it damn it! Oh to see things as clearly then as now!

If I were you, I would quickly expose, and if she moves out, quickly file for legal separation so that her debt is her own.

Is that how that works? After legal separation, any debts from that point forward are individual? Am I reading that right?

She moved out immediately after she brought up the ILYBINILWU 5 1/2 weeks ago. So, we've been apart the whole time except for a night or two.

I haven't had a chance to get into my legal options yet. I don't know if I should beat her to the punch? Divorce, annullment (although may not be grounds for it), separation....not sure.

At the same time, I haven't had a chance to plan-A very well, so I'd hate to jump right into plan B.

If anyone has any good legal advice.....bring it on!
Thanks
ILA

The other thing that sucks financially is that I hear from OMW that OM's grandma is on her death bed and as soon as she dies, OM will get her house (paid off...no mortgage, rent, nothing). You know they will be living there together. I guess that's better than them living in an apartment where they DO have to pay rent though....maybe she'll keep paying our mortgage with me and not default on it or force us to sell our house.

What do I do if W tries to force me to sell our house (both our names are on it and we pay equally on mortgage). I've been dreading that b/c I figured I'd have to go along with it and put it on the market. With the current market we'd stand to lose $100k b/c we only bought about 1-1/2 yrs. ago. I can't afford it on my own, and I sure don't want her to just stop paying and we default, I don't want her to file bankruptcy, but I'm not sure if I have any other legal rights if she insists we sell for a loss????

Stolen from another thread, this post by sdguy...

Thanks SD....I live in California now....but grew up in KS too!

Wow, this is already getting depressing......just thinking about my W and OM drving to Vegas right now and God knows what else for the next 3 days. I went to the gym for 3 1/2 hours to try to get my mind off it. Trying to surround myself with family and friends as much as possible.

I hope OM does something stupid and shows some bad habits in Vegas....but I'm sure W is too foggy to notice anyway.

When she gets back I guess I'll be as nice as I can be and start plan A-ing my butt off. I think I might try to go to W's head principal's house tomorrow to either give him a letter or talk to him if he will take the time. Assist. principal isn't calling me back so I think he wants to stay out of things.

Pray for me everyone, this is going to be a tough couple of days!!!! Thanks all
ILA

Well, I pulled the trigger today on exposure to W's workplace. I had left an email and voice message for assist. pricipal last week but got no response. So, today I found the address for head principal and wrote a letter to him explaining everything.

Both assist. and head principals attended our wedding 6 months ago with their wives, so I felt more confident that they might be a source of support.

Head principal was home and answered the door. I first gave him a thank you note for our wedding gift....which we just still hadn't gotten mailed out to people. I followed that with an explanation that W and I were having some big problems, and although he may not want to get involved or hear about it all, that I felt it did impact her work and involved another employee as well.

He really did seem like he wanted to get involved at all, quite honestly. He was nice about things, but seemed very non-committal.....so I didn't take a lot of time to try and tell him anything. I just gave him the letter and asked him to read it if he wanted to. I told him I thought he had a right to know, given the fact they were at our wedding and the fact that he was W's boss.

I've got to believe that his curiosity will eventually get him to read the letter, but beyond that I don't know that I'll get much response from him or anyone at the school.

But, at least I can say I tried and took the steps necessary to expose to the most important person at the work place. I guess that's all I can do.

Spent all weekend (with my mother who is visiting this week) having dinner with W's family members. All are still very supportive of me and we are all working as a team. W will still be in Vegas w/ OM through tomorrow as far as I know, but I will let her contact me whenever she's good and ready.

I'm going to try and start plan-A'ing my butt off. Oh yeah, also saw our MC (we went to once) for a 1-on-1 Saturday. I simply explained the situtation and the A and she pretty much agreed w/ everything I told her I was learning from this great website/books/you great people. That gave me more confidence that she agreed with it all. Heck, she only charged me for 15 minutes b/c she said she felt like she didn't tell me anything....just agreed with me the whole time!! MC is Dr. Pat Allen....some of you may have heard of her....she's written several books and been on lots of TV shows too....she's pretty good.

Oddly enough, the only thing she disagreed on was the exposure to the workplace! She thought that the more they were together, the quicker the A would end......I don't necessarily buy into that b/c I see it as a safe haven for the A.....that's why I went through with the letter to principal.

Thanks for the support everyone, and we'll see how the workplace exposure works out!! I need to get prepared for my rebuttal if W finds out!!

You just gave him an "out". If he appears to do nothing about the situation and you inquire why, he can always claim that he didn't feel comfortable opening the letter you gave him, when he might just be trying to avoid getting involved in the situation.

I think you may have dropped the ball on exposure here, but luckily it's one that you can easily pick back up. Give him a day or two, then call and ask if he has had an opportunity to read the letter.

Well, ILA ... I'm gone for 2 days and you revert right back to wienieland.

You call the WW to apologize because SHE is having an A, and then, in effect, give her YOUR BLESSING to go off with the OM for a weekend in Vegas. GREAT JOB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then you wuss out at the principal's ... what's this "give him a letter BS"??? Man, your WW is having an A with a co-worker and all you do is give him a letter and WALK AWAY. Why aren't you angry ... why didn't you SHOUT OUT to the principal ... "They're having a workplace A right under your nose, what are you going to do about that?"

I would really like to help you (and so would Tyk), but at some point, you've got to do something to help yourself. When you reach that point, let us know.

When you stop being afraid, you will start seeing some success. Stop giving people ways out of doing what you want and need them to do. Maybe the principal is a stand up guy and will realize that he pretty much HAS to do something. However, you have certainly left him with no sense of urgency regarding the situation. You should have come away from that meeting with the knowledge that he was going to do SOMETHING! Anyhow, I think he will, if he's a smart man, he will anyhow. Be ready for your WW to go absolutely apeshit at any time as a result of this. Don't react, don't apologize, stand firm and tell her "I believe in our marriage and want to work with you to make it happy for both of us."

You know what, my Rev, I'm not buying it. I appreciate your tough love, but I AM standing up for myself damnit. I don't know why you guys think I"m afraid....I don't feel that way. I know I have nothing to lose! I don't think you can't understand the situation without being present in it. There's no way I'm going to corner the principal of her school and try to drag him into my whole story in front of his kids when it seemed like he was in no mood to talk about anything anyway....you really think if I came barging into his house and came off as some raving lunatic that he would ever buy into my side of things? The letter said EVERYTHING that I could possibly want to tell him, and I'm sure will do a better job of it than me trying to spit it out. I DID tell him that I was extremely upset, that he had a responsibility to know what was going on, and that I trusted that he would do the right thing and read the letter. I don't think walking into a near-strangers house and telling him what he HAS to do is going to get me anywhere, man. I feel like I got my point across....maybe I didn't really express that in my last post.

Also, I didn't give my W permission to go to Vegas.....just the opposite. I flat out told her how p.o.'d I was about it...I simply told her I "regretted how we'd handled our conversation the night before" and that we had to continue to be civil so we could work through this. She knows how mad I was about Vegas. I was just trying to lay the groundwork for my plan A work that I'm going to be in....if she went off all weekend thinking I was an [censored], how is that going do me any good....that's just going to be a continual drain on her Bank, whether I'm talking to her or not....it's like automatic withdrawal!

You guys, I AM standing up to people and I"m fighthing harder than you realize. I've got everyone in my corner....I don't know that I can do alot more w/ exposure than what i've done, believe me. My W has seen my efforts and of course is upset by them....just like Lori said she was for a while when you were fighting for her. But I also know they are sinking in and having an impact.

I feel like much more of this and it's just continual LB's and driving her further away. NOBODY is changing her mind or ending the A right now....she is buried that deep in it. I finally accept that this is going to take lots of time. I'm ready to have no more R&A talks and simply go full blown plan-A to work on ME. I will continue to cut her off if any talk of the OM comes up and let her know it is not acceptible. Somehow I have to start rebuilding my Love Bank balance and I know that isn't going to happen as long as I continue to push as hard as I have.

Thoughts?

ILA,

I'm sorry you can't/won't acknowledge just how poorly you're handling this whole thing.

I also understand that some people just can't communicate with some others effectively ... and that appears to be where we are. Therefore, it is possible that I may drive you away if I continue posting to you, because I am not the type to just pat you on the back and tell you "everything will be just fine if you just hold on a little longer".

So, I'll back out of this thread and let Tyk and the others "attempt" to help you, but you seem intent on disregarding ALL of the advice that you've been given.

I'll leave you with one parting thought: "The sooner you realize that there is nothing special about you, your WW, her A, the OM, or the whole damn situation, the better off you will be, and may finally screw up your courage enough to do something to put a stop to this very garden variety affair, rather than just making excuses to justify your inactions."

Good Luck to you!!!

My Rev, that's not what I'm getting at. Trust me, I feel the advice that you and Lori and Tyk have given me has been a tremendous help. I hope you will continue to help me out...it is very much appreciated.

I'm trying to do everything that I'm told.....but it seems like everytime I do something, I'm then told I did it wrong! I know that up until this weekend I was engaging and reacting WAY too much.....but I've come to the conclusion that I MUST and WILL stop that now. Ok, maybe I DO need to be MORE direct with her principal...but how else can I try to end an A that doesn't have any intentions of being ended?? I don't know that there is anyone left to expose to...I've talked to them all and continue to follow up as often as possible to let them know I'm still fighting and asking them to help my fight.

I'm getting feedback that I shouldn't go to plan B just 2 weeks into d-day, and I feel I need to plan A for a while b/c I haven't done a good job of it yet. The time spent improving myself has been noticed by W, but I've been too busy talking R & A that I haven't gotten anywhere...probably just done more damage. That's why I am now finally understanding (thanks to you guys), and now want to go silent on that talk, and just do plan A stuff.

What else do I do to try and stop the A though (besides more pressure on principal)? Like I said, I've got OMW in my corner and she's applying pressure from her side...I've got EVERY friend and family member of my W on my side of things too and they are trying to help.

The pressure is out there, but W and OM are trying to go and hide in their own little world. She's not living at home so I can't really control what she does can I?? I know the isolation will start to wear on them, but right now it doesn't seem that anyone can break the A....only some time and them getting tired of each other.

What am I missing here, man? I DO want your help and I DO want my W back more than anything in the world......I guess I just don't understand how much I'm doing wrong in your eyes because I'm trying to (at least now I am) carry out the plan.

BTW, MyRev, I DO acknowledge that this is a very typical A....I even spent all weekend explaining that exact thing to W's family that I was around. I admit that I only recently opened my mind up enough to realize it, but I DO know what you are saying.

I want to do the right things now instead of trying to do what "I thought was right". I know I will have lots of questions on how to handle different situations through plan A / plan B, but I want to do it right...really, I do! I would appreciate your continued help (and no, I'm not begging!!!!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ILA, personally, I think you're getting it and you've done a pretty good job of listening and implementing what you know to do.

Unfortunately, recovery is NOT a sprint. Many times it's more like a marathon. Just calm down and work on yourself for right now. Do Plan A stuff that will make you feel you're bettering yourself...for a future with or without your WS.

You've notified her bosses, her family, and her friends. Good job. She's mad, but that's expected. Don't let it get you discouraged.

It wouldn't hurt to consult with a lawyer about your finances, if you think she might be using your marital assets for continuing her A. You don't have to DO anything at this point, but it never hurts to be informed and aware of your options, etc.

These threads may be helpful to you, ILA.

Lighthouse thread

carrot/stick of Plan A

Lori

Quote from another thread I just found. This is exactly how I feel....I really think I need to build a strong plan A first.

"Remember that the biggest reason for Plan B is to salvage any love you have left for her and really isn't about pressuring her to return. That is why Plan B can only help if Plan A has been stellar. You have to make her enjoy spending time with you before you cut her off from spending time with you. It is the first part that has the effect, not the second. She has to like being with you enough to miss you when your gone."

Any other thoughts on this.

My Rev, Fog Free, At Peace.....sorry, in an earlier post I mentioned Lori as being MyRev's FWW........I got you all confused! My apologies for that. I'm still trying to get everyone straight. It's been a whirlwind 2 weeks!

Thanks

No problem, ILA...I hadn't even caught that!

BTW, I think we cross-posted a few minutes ago. You may want to scroll up.

Lori

Yeah, Lori, got your prior one. Thanks for the support. I really do feel like I've committed myself, just a few days ago mind you, to following the plan A to a tee.

What you said about the marathon not a sprint has finally sunk in. For the last 2 weeks I've been trying to solve everything right now, thinking I could still make a difference.....that's just how I'm wired....I'm a 'fixer'.

I finally have settled on the fact that this will be a long process and feel that I'm finally ready to start plan A the RIGHT way.

This is not to say that I won't try to keep pushing the exposure and doing what MyRev and Tyk are saying....but I also have to quit LB'ing and start to "play nice" a little bit to rebuild my Love Bank balance don't I ??? I'm trying to prep. myself with Rev. Babble so I'm ready to do it properly and avoid the "wrong" discussions.

Good attitude, ILA.

It's not easy...you're gonna screw up sometimes...there will be days when you find your hope almost gone, then days when you're super hopeful...this isn't called a rollercoaster ride for nothing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there. Don't forget that your ultimate goal should be personal recovery, even IF your marriage doesn't recover.

Lori

I don't think you're doing horrible, certainly no worse than I was at times, probably in many respects better than I was. At some point, really, there is very little you can do.

Plan A, you work on yourself, you identify your problems in the marriage, you fix them, you SHOW your WW that you "get it". You do that consistently, for however long you can, for however long you think it is having some effect. In my case, I did it for about 6 months. However, I didn't find MB until about 6 months into my situation. Had I found MB right off the bat, who knows what would have happened. I would have used exposure MUCH sooner and more effectively. It can never be known, but I suspect I could have and would have shortened my 6 month Plan A adventure by a good 2 or 3 months had I gotten here sooner.

Anyhow. . I don't think you're doing to terribly bad as far as working the plans ILA. As I said, there is in all reality only so much you can do. You need to really work on the relationship talks with your WW. There's just no point in it, after a point, as has been discussed. You need to really work on and identify your truth. Practice acting from it. There is no need for deception, either self deception or attempts at manipulating your WW.

Its a tough road ILA, there's no guarantees. You do your 1/2, act with honor and integrity and the rest is up to your WW.

Thanks Tyk. I have come to the same conclusions now....a week ago I didn't fully "get it". My MC even said the same things.....and said not to "judge" WW. MC said to act honorably and give it time...don't start getting involved with anyone of the opposite sex for several months at least. Everything I'm hearing now, I truly believe.

My #1 focus now is on stopping the R&A talk. I'm hoping to learn rev. babble and keep practicing how I will respond to different situations.

Just talked to W's Aunt for about an hour (that's who W is staying with). Aunt had been away for 1-1/2 weeks so wasn't fully up to speed. I guess my W DID tell her that she was going to Vegas with OM though. I know my W will be more honest with Aunt than anyone else so I have to keep her Aunt informed. Also, W doesn't know that Aunt and I have talked at all.....so that makes it even better. Aunt really liked the theories I told her about (mostly everything from this website) and really bought into everything. I just hadn't had a chance to explain the whole situation to her as well as other family so this makes me happy. Aunt is very analytical and spiritual and is as much 'intrigued' by the situation as she is disappointed. It's almost like a case study to her so I know she will be a huge ally.

I plan to try to keep my contact to the W at a minimum....let her come to me. I plan to continue working my plan and making ME better. I plan to occassionally ask W out on a date or go on a walk or dinner with her Aunt & Uncle, etc......just to try to get some face time with her and show her the "new me" and what she's walking out on. She will probably deny many proposals, but nonetheless, I plan to keep a positive, happy exterior.

Does this sound right, y'all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for everyone's continued support. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BTW, Lori, great link to the plan A stuff.......thank you!!!!

Is it ok to keep asking WW for NC? Right now I just get laughed at if I say that. She would call me dilusional. I don't know if continuing to ask the question (even if it's not A talk....just a reminder like "I don't feel comfortable talking about YOUR relationship right now....but if you promise NC then we can talk about US". Is that type of statement ok, or does that just cause more problems??

W is so foggy right now that she won't even consider US....but does this continual NC reinforcment help any or just hinder????

There is no point in asking for NC right now, she's actively wayward.

IMO, the way to "ask" for NC is to simply state "I believe in our marriage, I believe it is possible for us make this marriage a relationship that makes both of us happy. I believe I have found a way for this to happen. It will not be possible while OM is involved."

That isn't asking her to do anything. That is telling her what you want and telling her the first step in how to get there when she decides she wants it too. No sense in beating her over the head with it over and over, but you also have to be firm in your stance that there is no "working on us" until she ends the A, as there is no point in you doing so. You know what the M is like with OM involved, and it isn't a workable option for you, so unless and until the A is over, recovery simply isn't possible and there's no point in you pretending it is, to yourself or to her.

Very good, Tyk. I'll keep this in mind. Thank you.

Right now just keep ramping up the pressure on the affair and plan A with conversation. Don't talk about the relationship at all. If she wants to talk about the pressure you are applying just say you aren't okay with what she is doing, and she can't stop you from doing what you are doing just like you can't stop her from screwing OM.

Ok, will do. I know I can't script my conversations, but I read that I should try to keep them as "normal" as possible right? Just talk about her day, what she's doing, what I'm doing, maybe family & friends, etc. right? If she tries to bring up R or A just reverse babble and shut her down....am I getting this correct?

I haven't talked to her since Friday b/c she's been doing God knows what in Vegas all weekend. I guess if she was going to run off somewhere with OM, Sin City is appropriate right?....I think I'll use that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

ILA,

I think I'll just lurk and read for awhile ... looking for some meaningful and consistent actions on your part.

While you are getting some great support and advice here, I'm afraid that you're using this site as a crutch and picking and choosing the advice that supports your continuing weakness to justify your continued inaction.

Here's an example of what I've been hoping for your situation:

FogFree and I took a short quail hunting trip over the long weekend with our english setters and we had a lot of "windshield" time to just talk. Invariably, MB topics came up, along with our own R talks, and we were discussing your situation.

I told FogFree that if I were you, I would expose to the principal and asst. principal on Friday afternoon, and I would do it at the school, where news of our meeting would likely get back to the WW or OM just prior to their little Vegas getaway. Then I would have followed up the meeting with a TM to let them know that their jobs were potentially in jeopardy due to THEIR actions.

Let's see how much "fun" they have with that hanging over their heads for the weekend. Let OM deal with her in a "real life" situation and see how much LBing he does. Bring "REALITY" home to roost for the weekend.

See, IMHO, the WORST thing you can do is allow the A to continue openly. It shows incredible disrespect for you, and makes you look VERY WEAK!!!, which is not an attractive alternative to the OM.

However, if you would have acted as a strong BH trying to save his WW from her own terrible choices, while the OM was scrambling to save his own sorry a$$ in the aftermath of a strong work place exposure, you present yourself as someone who truly loves his WW and is strong enough to fight for her, even when she behaves her worst. It's a powerful message for a WW to absorb.

...but, that opportunity was wasted and you sat alone all weekend like a used up jilted lover, while your WW partied in VEGAS with the OM ... now how do you look as a viable alternative to the OM???

You only get so many of these opportunities to make a difference, and this one was a HUGE missed opportunity. Look around for other upcoming opportunities to make yourself look better in comparison to the OM and TAKE ACTION. When you do, I'll be right there cheering you on.

I understand what you're saying, MyRev. You do have guts! Maybe I did miss the opportunity..but I also think I'd be getting divorce papers today if I'd done that. It seems like a tough call to me.

I did however get a call from W this morning. Apparently her friend in Vegas spilled the beans that I was thinking about talking to her principal (I guess I must have mentioned it in a past conversation). W wanted to know if I'd called him.....I said No (I gave him a letter). W said she hadn't had a chance to talk to him yet and wanted to know what he knows about the situation....I said "I have no idea what your principal knows" (don't know if he 'read' the letter). No direct lies, no admission....that was it. I said it's a shame that the only time she calls me is to attack me on stuff like this. She claimed she wasn't attacking me. I asked how her friend was and told her to have a great day at work. That was it.

She's obviously been wondering most of the weekend if her boss knows something, so I guess that part was good. She must be a little worried, but at the same time the tone of her voice told me that she was already essentially "married" to the OM and she was planning to go spread the word to her co-workers and bosses that they were now an item. She is still so damn adamant about things....it's really hard to hear her talk and be convinced that this A will ever end. They have their whole lives planned out already.

I hope she feels like the eyes of the world are on her today in her first day back at work....but I don't see it doing any bit of good.

BTW, Rev, I'm jealous of the quail hunting trip. I grew up doing a lot of that too. I have a German Shorthaired Pointer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lies by omission are still lies. You need to stand up to your WW, you need to stop fearing her reaction. You should have just told her that you talked to him. I'm sure her and OM are VERY worried about this. However, perhaps its best to have them off balance and not know how to proceed as far as damage control. Still, it is never a good thing to lie, its going to come back and bite you in the [censored] as she's going to use the fact that you lied to further justify her decisions. If something comes up and you don't want to talk about it, just tell her that.

The fact that she thinks her and OM are in a legitimate relationship will have no bearing on what other people think, especially people that know you are still trying to fix the marriage, people like her boss.

You're right, of course. I need to get it through my thick skull that she's going to find out and that it's OK if she does.

I'm finding it soooo difficult to have any sort of positive, plan-A type conversation with her b/c it's always about this type of stuff. That's why I tried to not get into the discussion too much this morning, and tried to change the subject as quickly as I could to something more positive....small talk, right?

I guess that's by far my BIGGEST problem right now.....everytime I want to engage in some good, plan A conversation she calls instead to confront me b/c she just found out that I exposed to somebody else and she's mad about it. How DO you plan-A your WW when day after day she keeps getting news that I've exposed to someone else. I feel like she's mad at me constantly and I feel I'm only getting buried deeper in her dislike for me. How do you balance that????

Once this is all over, I'd love to talk bird hunting and bird dogs with you. My son has a very nice GSP female at the moment, and I have a kennel of 5 english setters (with a litter of puppies being delivered AS I POST ... we are at 5 and counting).

Tyk already mentioned what I was thinking ... you should have been honest and up front with your WW. "Yes, I spoke with the principal and I won't apologize for taking every action possible to break up your A and save our M. You are still my W, and I won't stand by while you carry on your A and do NOTHING".

Honest questions:

Since you are flying solo with Plan ILA and basically disregarding the advice you seek, how is that going? Are you any closer to breaking up the A? Does your WW view you as a viable alternative to OM?

To answer your questions.....Not good, and No. But believe me, I realize that. I'm just still trying to learn how to do things the right way. I wish I could always react the perfect way and say the perfect words.....but I'm obviously not there yet. Everytime I mention that I'm simply fighting for our M, I either get called a lunatic or I get threatened with D.....but I'll get better and better as this continues. I know I will. Especially with the help from this site.

Congrats on the pups!

Is your wife out of the house still?

Please stick to your one thread...

Gets confusing...

K?

Sorry, I thought a different topic/though might create a separate discussion. My bad.

Yes, W is out of the house, has been since a couple of days after she first said ANYTHING to me about PROBLEMS. She came back for X-Mas eve and one other night but we slept apart and she didn't want to be there (this was even before d-day). She has completely checked out of our M just wants to get on with her life with OM. That's why I see this as the "exit affair" scenario. If she could have moved straight in with him I think she would have (this will likely happen in a month or two when OM inherits his dying grandma's house).

She has NO desire to try anything to work on US.......her whole life is HIM right now. Disgusting!

If you want to do PLAN A, you need to ask her to come back home.

Tell her that you've decided that you want to work on your marriage.

Otherwise, you are ENABLING her continuation of the affair and you are giving her the excuse that YOU threw her out.

Mimi...thanks for getting involved here....I've seen your other posts and greatly respect your views. Awesome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for plan A.....I've told her many times that I want to work on our M, that nothing in this world means more to me, I've written her the most heart-felt letters possible....but she thinks I'm dilusional and need to "get it through my head that there is NO chance".

I haven't really ASKED her to come back home. Quite frankly I was wondering if that empowers her more?? I think I would have to insist on NC (at least while she was home if nothing else) but she won't even consider that right now i don't think.

I agree, it seems really hard to plan A from afar when the only time she calls me is to get mad about who I've talked to. Really don't know what to do about this.

Again...TYPICAL SCRIPT..Don't listen to HER..this is YOUR PLAN.."Don't let the tail wag the dog"...you get in the driver's seat...



NO..let HER choose to LEAVE. Give HER responsibility for HER OWN bad choices.



You need to read up on PLAN A. Expect contact during PLAN A. You can't INSIST on anything. You can only demonstrate your ability to meet her ENs..IF..you choose to do PLAN A..IF, you want to reconcile your marriage..

Your choice..We support you either way...

Thanks Mimi....I feel like I need her at home too. I guess I forgot about "expecting contact" during plan A....I knew that just spaced out I guess :P

I think I may need to wait another week or two until we can get some better groundwork laid. Right now I know she'd completely reject the offer....she moved out, I didn't throw her out (except the day I told her she needed to pack up and go after I discovered the PA)....but she wasn't living there then, had just come by to get some things. I don't want to ask over and over and keep begging her to come home.

I'll respond to you over here.

Basically, my response is THE SAME.

You have to learn NOT to listen to her. WSes do the same BLAH..BLAH..FOG TALK..

Not saying the same will happen for you..my disclaimer..but MY HUSBAND said the EXACT SAME STUFF..but now is definitely in love with me..

Read over what I have said..

The Wayward DOES NOT want YOUR PLAN A to work..

The Wayward wants you TO GIVE UP...

Just think how easy it makes the process for the wayward: "I'm not bad, he didn't want me anyways"...

SAY OUT LOUD: "I want to work on OUR MARRIAGE"..making it distinct that you do not want to be HER FRIEND...

Gotcha Mimi....I'll try to keep reinforcing that, even if she doesn't want to listen to it. Last time I said it (last Thur. night) she threatened D papers for the first time. It almost seems like everytime I'm really stubborn about not giving in....she feels the need to threaten me or "sit me down for the break up speach"....like I'm a little kid or something....just to get me to back off.

Funny, I've started sending out thank you cards from our wedding 6 mo. ago (something else I got blamed for not doing yet, although it's both of our responsibility!). I figured it would be a nice plan-A step as well as making her feel a little more guilt that all of her family and friends would be reading her sincere "thank you's for such a PERFECT day" (her words). I emailed one of WW's co-workers today just to get her address for the card. She just emailed me back and asked how I was doing. I don't think she has a clue yet, so I just told her that "I was feeling pretty horrible honestly, but trying to keep my chin up and faith strong in the light of things." I'm sure this lady will confront WW on what the heck is going on....she's a bulldog...and WW can't get mad at me for saying anything, b/c I didn't tell her a word about our situation. I hope the pressure at her work is coming hot and heavy today!!!!

You are making me want to be MY head against a wall ILA!

Repeat after me, out loud:

"I DO NOT CARE IF MY WIFE IS MAD ABOUT ME EXPOSING THE TRUTH!"

Say that, probably about 10 times now, then about 10 times per hour until it sinks in. In the mean time, email your friend back and tell her what's going on so your WW can't spin it when she goes to ask her what's wrong!

Damn....I knew that as soon as I said it/did it! See, I'm still learning.....stupid rookies!

Ok, Tyk, I emailed WW's coworker back and told her the whole story. I even told her I don't care if WW knows, it's up to her whether she wants to tell her, but I do hope she confronts WW about it. I said all that really matters is saving my M.

Better? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the reminder!!!

NEED BIG TIME HELP!!!

W called tonight and wanted to talk. She was extremely upset about my going to her principal. Principal didn't want to be involved whatsoever. He went straight to her today to tell her that I came to his house to confront him on the situation. He's a total schmuck. Principal thought I posed a threat to the school!!! Supposedly I'm not allowed on the campus now! I hear that everyone at the school now thinks I'm psychotic and W said she was going to get a restraining order on me until a close friend talked her out of it. She claims OM and even OMW (who wanted me to go to the principal!) are even seeking a restraining order against me! Man, that's exactly what I was worried about. This exposure at her school is blowing up in my face. I've been made out to be the bad guy....they are ALL going to support WW instead.

WW was adamant about filing for D now. She said she can't even think about being a friend now (I guess the cake doesn't taste so good?)...and can't believe how "I've handled this situation" I tried my best to rev. babble, downplay the D talk.....but she wasn't having it. W said she fully understood that I was fighting for our marriage and doing what I thought was right, but she was concerned that I was taking advice from "people who don't know anything about our situation". I don't know how many times I heard her tell me that I was dilusional and psychotic tonight....problem is that now she's trying to convince her family that WERE in my corner the same, because none of them thought I should go to the principal either! Now even they are wondering about me!

She said she wants to come over this weekend and start discussing how we need to break up our finances. She said we need to discuss the D or else she will go ahead and serve me papers instead. She said that's the "only way she can get me to understand that we are done...to go ahead and make it happen immediately". She claims she is flat out "scared" by my actions and is worried about what else I might do.

How the ****** can she get away with paiting me as the bad guy???? I told her that I haven't done one single thing wrong....this is ALL her decisions and her wrong doing. All I've been trying to do is save our marriage. She doesn't care though....said I have to stop it and move on. We will "never be together....ever! Especially not now".

Wow, I don't know what to do now. I obviously need to start seeking legal options immediately.

Help!!!!

You know how you can tell when a WW is lying?

Her lips are moving.

Call the principal and find out the real story from him. Reiterate that you are only interested in saving your M, and ask him what he intends to do about the situation.

ILA, your WW HAS to paint you as the bad guy, do you not understand this? She needs to find a scapegoat for HER bad choices, and her BS is the best candidate. This is straight out of the WS Handbook! And yes, OF COURSE she is upset. This is EXPECTED. What would have really been bad news for your M is if she was NOT upset at her A being exposed!

Weren't you told that she would flip out as a result of exposure?

Call the principal and find out the truth. Ask him what he plans on doing about that fact that two employees with daily access and contact with the community's children are engaged in an adulterous relationship with each other and you have documented proof that he has been aware of this since last week.

Tell him that your WW told you that he was threatening you with legal action and that you don't appreciate it. Ask him if he thinks a letter to the shool board and state dept. of education would be helpful in clearing this mess up since he seems unwilling to enforce even a basic standard of conduct in his employees. Back this guy into a corner and keep him there! The last thing this principal wants to do is lose his job because of your WW and OM! He's not going to know what to do, but you can bet your [censored] he's going to want the problem to go away!

Last: don't believe anything your WW says. She knows you are weak and will back down and question yourself in the face of aggression. As far as divorce: simply refuse to talk about it. Tell her all divorce material will simply have to be taken care of by your attorney.

Also, regardless of her facade, she's upset about exposure because it is working! I would bet you anything that the meeting with the principal went NOTHING like she said, and when you call him and get on him a bit about it I think you'll discover that. So start slow on him, give him a chance to refute your WW's side of the story before you threaten to go over his head and public with the story.

I don't know Tyk. I think the meeting with the principal probably went exactly like she said. When I went to see principal at his house on Sunday, he wanted NOTHING to do with me being there. I tried to start telling him some things and he tried to cut me off. I told him I had a letter explaining things and tried to hand it to him and he didn't want to take it....finally did, but tossed it on his table as if it was going to never be opened.

WW said she went to principal yesterday and principal immediately told her that I came to his house and he was very distrubed by that. WW said principal told her he had not read the letter and offered to give it to her instead. He said he wanted to know nothing of personal relationships of his employees. I flat out believe all of this.

I know that there is NO policy on this type of stuff in this school. I can't prove that it is in any way affecting their job or their teaching, thus the principal doesn't want any involvement. I believe what my WW said simply b/c that's exactly what I saw from him too.

Trust me, if I go back to principal, I WILL have a restraining order filed.....there is no doubt in my mind that she meant business by that. This school exposure is doing NO GOOD, I'm telling you.....they are all banded together and will only believe my WW. The more I attack, the more convinced they ALL are that I'm psychotic.

All I'm doing is building deeper and deeper resentment from my WW. How is this ever going to facilitate reconciliation? I can't even do a plan A b/c of all of this continued hatred! Forgive me, but I don't understand how this helps??

Then just give up and file for D ... at least you'll be doing SOMETHING ... and not just sitting there "taking" having your face rubbed in her A, along with all of the further humiliation that goes along with it.

If effect, you "gave up" a long time ago and just accepted your lot in all of this.

You only went along with exposure and other advice because we pushed you to try to do the right things, but your heart was never in the efforts and the results show it.

When you're not willing the play the hand you've been dealt, the only thing left to do is "FOLD".

I know about school systems. You probably are right about the Principal. He could be having an affair himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



MAN UP, though and DON'T WORRY about what THESE PEOPLE think. Sounds like your WW can be VERY CHARMING..YUCK...



BULL CRAP..MAN UP and get the upper hand. YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT! SHE IS IN THE WRONG! Maintain your calm assertiveness. Tell her to feel free to go ahead if she needs to do that, that you do not want a divorce. In fact, tell her that you want her to come back home to you where she belongs.



My H told me almost the EXACT SAME CRAP..word for word..and look at us now..

She wants you to be FRIENDLY and ACCEPTING and to go along with this...DO NOT..

She will gain the UTMOST RESPECT for you if you do not back down in the face of her EVILNESS...



YES, you do know what to do..STAND TALL..CHEST OUT...

SHE IS LYING ILA!
DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT COMES FROM HER. SHE IS AN UNRELIABLE SOURCE FOR ANY INFORMATION.

SHE WANTS YOU TO BACK DOWN, AND WILL SAY ANYTHING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

PLEASE LISTEN TO TYK...

I agree that she is A LIAR..and wants ILA to BACK DOWN..he needs to MAN UP...

What ILA is saying actually is true of how school systems work....the principal can make the CHOICE to overlook this..and schools are very cliquey...

Well if that's the case, Mimi, do I continue to attack her principal? To me, it feels like it will only hurt the situation.....I sure don't need a restraining order!

If this was a business it would be different, but at school they don't give a damn. The principal and all the teachers are putz's. As a matter of fact, my wife hasn't been the same since she started working there 2 years ago and hanging out with these idiots.

Is it better to just MAN UP against my WW or do I need to still push the workplace?

Also, in light of this and an impending D filing......am i being forced into plan B? I hate to b/c plan A has really never gotten off the ground! What is there for her to come back to except our past memories (which there are many great one's in my opinion). I guess I have enough close contact with friends and family of hers that they can pass along my plan A improvements.....but it seems difficult.

Thoughts on this? I almost feel like going dark, but don't know. Don't know that I really want, or can afford, a messy legal battle.......but maybe that's the most effective way?

MAN UP..with HER...that's PLAN A.."I'm fighting for our marriage..I don't want a divorce..I want you to come home where you belong..if you want a divorce, you file...I'm not going along with it...KEEP TO THIS MANTRA..Continue with PLAN A...

I'm in a rush..will check in with you later...

I agree with you about the Principal and stuff..grew up in that environment...

You could E-mail the contents of the letter to the Principal - that way he can no longer deny seeing the contents. Also check to see if you can escalate the matter any further - who does the Principal report to?



On what basis would it be filed? Bear in mind that the filing of a restraining order will likely bring MORE publicity to your WW's A - something she probably wouldn't want, given the noise your exposure of her A has generated so far.

Interesting points, MIM.....but I don't think they care about more exposure to the A. Everyone knows and they aren't afraid to tell people what they are doing....they think they have every right and don't care about their decisions. That's why I don't doubt that WW would file this..........principal may not have a right, but WW sure has reasons that are viable given my actions.

In all honesty, I'm going to have to think about this for a bit. I know this will convince a few of you here that I'm being weak and have given up. Please understand that I've gotten mixed suggestions from all sorts of different people regarding the work exposure. Even though my gut told me not to, I went ahead anyway........and now feel like I'm unsure if it was right. (I know that is the norm). Even my MC tells me that exposure to work is NOT good.......although her reasoning is that she thinks working together post-A will make them wake up quicker.

Anyway, I've got to try to sort this out in my head a bit. Please keep coming with suggestions.....from both sides of the debate.....it all helps greatly.

Tyk, MyRev.....I've always been a guy who never gave up....to a fault sometimes, on my past girlfriends. I'd been accused of stalking before b/c I fought for them. I AM a person who isn't afraid to confront people. Yes, I've been kind of wishy-washy at times and I understand that....but please know that my hesitancey isn't b/c I'm not willing to try. It's just my brain over-riding my heart sometimes......yes, I know, counter-intuitive!!!

Thanks

Just thought I'd let you know how much support I'm gettting from WW's family........this is an email WW's brother sent her today......said he just couldn't take it anymore.

This is more inspirational to me than anything I've seen to date and I hope it shows everyone else here that we are not alone in fighting these horrible misdeeds. Here you go:

I know we haven't really spoken much throughout all of this and I am
willing to at least give you the opportunity to tell me your side of the
story but to be honest with you (as I always have been about everything) I
really don't know how much good it would do. I don't think anything you do
or say could justify what you are doing right now. You have probably, No
you have been one of the 3 most important people in my life since the time
I can remember and I never thought I would ever, ever have these feelings of
embarrassment towards you. When I sat in a hospital bed with 8 doctors on a
split decision and parents telling me to do opposite things and literally
had to make a life or death decision I looked to you for help and took your
advice, when I was having problems with [girlfriend] I came to you and took
your advice, when ever things in my life got really really hard I looked to
you for help. Now I question any advice I have ever taken from you. I
question the fact that you really are this person I thought you were all
these years. Someone I looked up to, respected, and actually wanted to live
my life like. I question your integrity, and just the plain fact that you
are a good person. Trust me this is as hard for me to write as it is for
you to read so don't think I did this on a whim or have not though about my
words very carefully. I have not jumped out and yelled at you, or called
you names, I have sat and listened. I find in interesting that while [your husband]
is here to tell me everything he feels I have not heard anything from you.
He has never once put you down or said anything negative. He is simply
trying to fight for what he thinks is still there. Please do not run to him
and get angry with him for the fact that I am writing you. He has told me
numerous times that I should hear you out, you are my family, and that I
should talk to you. But like I said before I don't think I could talk to
you right now which really really hurts me. I felt like I have always had
you in my life to talk to, to get advice, and be this comforting older
"sister". I feel like if you keep going on this path you are on you will
ruin all that for me. I don't know if I will ever be able to trust you
again. If you can lie to [husband] (Your Husband) and say " through the good
times and that bad " and take an oath in front of everyone and god. If you
can leave him, who is to say you won't do the same to me?


- A REALLY concerned little brother

Well, let her go ahead and file if she wants to. Exactly what do you think you've done btw that warrants a restraining order be placed against you? This is your W, we're talking about, right?



That worked partly in my case - primarily because the OM was a bit of a cad and had another A going on at the same time he was having an A with my W! After their A ended, he flaunted it in front of her at the office, and that's the prime reason why she chose to leave.

I suspect that my case is the exception to the norm though, and who knows what might have happened a fews years in the future if they continued working together? I might be going through this same experience again. And even with the no love lost between them at the office, our recovery was still adversely affected, so I don't recommend it.

And guess what - the OM now has her job, and that might have been his intent all along! I am actually ANGRY now that I didn't expose when I had the possibility to do so.

Once you ensure that your actions portray a concerned husband that's trying to save his M, rather than a disturbed stalker, I think you'll have little to worry about.

BTW, if that was REALLY the case, she would not be so upset over the exposure now, would she?

[quote
BTW, if that was REALLY the case, she would not be so upset over the exposure now, would she? [/quote]

Yeah, I see your point there....I'm sure she IS upset by the exposure still.....that's the only time she ever calls me is when I've talked to someone.

I've try to reinforce this to everyone AND my WW....WW even says she knows why I'm doing what i'm doing....to save our M....but that my lack of acceptance of her true feelings is starting to make me delusional.....not to mention my "reliance on a website and people who know nothing about us"!

Bumping this up again......curious if anyone thinks this will do ANY good to get through to WW? I know she'll cry her eyes out, but doubt if it will change anything..IMHO.

With a foggy WW, who knows? Yes, will bring a tear or two, and you might get yet another furious call from your WW, but it's not likely to end the A.

When she comes after you with her anticipated fury, you stay calm! You tell her you are doing WHATEVER IT TAKES to save your marriage, and if the EXPOSURE is causing some unexpected (by her) light on the affair, then she needs to get familiar with accepting some responsibility for HER OWN ACTIONS!

I think the EMAIL from her brother will have a HECK of an EFFECT..BUT

YOU WON'T SEE THE EFFECT!!

Stop looking to HER!!

WORK YOUR PLAN!! Try to build confidence in YOURSELF and do not look to HER as EVIDENCE of your effectiveness.

She is having an affair and you are not going to talk her out of it right now. NO ONE will be able to do THAT.

So what is YOUR PLAN for your CONVERSATIONS with her? What is YOUR PLAN for this WEEKEND? Are you just gonna give in to her request for an amicable divorce..or..are you gonna tell her that YOU DO NOT WANT A DIVORCE?

If you want a DIVORCE, I could certainly understand that..but you do not have to make that CHOICE.

FOCUS ON YOURSELF..the FIRST STEP in PLAN A...She is GONE to YOU right now..This is NOT your wife any longer. She may look and act like your wife but it is not her. Think of her as being UNDER A SPELL....

My suggestion - stop hiding behind MB. When she asks you why you're doing what you're doing, respond that you're doing it because you want to save your M, and YOU think it's the right thing to do, NOT something along the lines of "well, that's what they suggest at...".

In fact, it's probably not a good idea to tell your WW about this site at all, otherwise she might try to use your comments here against you (it has happened before!).

Yeah, the MB stuff came more from her family who'd I told about it. WW also has a clue b/c at first I was trying to get her to read Dr. Haley's books (although the PA blew up before I could get her to).

While she's still actively in the A, you do NOT want her looking at your thread here. It's about the same as a coach giving his game plan to the opposing coach, a week before the game.

The advice above was on the mark. Please, for YOUR sake, and for OURS, stop reacting to everything she says and/or does. Just stop!

Work on YOU. Work YOUR Plan. Work Plan A. Even from afar. Show her a strong, INDEPENDENT, positive man, who is busting his a$$ to correct his shortcomings so far as the marriage is concerned. Show her a MAN willing to stand TALL and fight with all his heart for the marriage he believes in.

Show her a man who's not backing down or cowering in the presence of ANY of her foggy remarks (and ALL of her remarks are foggy right now)

Confident, loving, emotional detachment from the chaos in which she lives. That's how you get through this.

Day by day... it's a marathon, not a sprint.

No ONE thing that you do will make any difference.

EVERYTHING that you do (as recommended to you in this thread), over a sustained period of time, will make ALL the difference!

Get your head around all that, and stay the course.

Thanks SD, that sums things up really well. I'll keep that as my mantra! I have definitely come to that conclusion now anyway.

She wants to come by the house this weekend to get some clothes and wants to start discussing how we are going to separate things.

While I've already decided I will not listen to any D talk....if she wants it she will have to file on her own....I actually would like to get our bills split up. I agree with her on that much. She says she wants her paycheck (which is currently Direct Dep. to our joint account). I pay ALL the bills. I think if we separate the money and bills, at least she has to take care of herself instead of me doing that for her. I know this is sort of a plan B step, but it seems logical to me.......and it also provides me with a little more protection of my assests I think.

Any suggestions for this meeting on Saturday?

I think I'll try to find a lawyer today (never had one before!) Any suggestions on a good place in So.Cal to do so?

I'm sure that when WW comes this weekend and I tell her "I don't want a divorce" she's going to end up filing on her own and serving me w/ papers.....at least that's what she told me she would do.

Is there any point in negotiating with her on something besides a divorce (I think I know the answer to this!). I tossed around the idea of seeking a separation instead....just to keep the D out of the equation for now......I'm assuming that is a stupid idea though right? Just say "I don't want a divorce" and leave it at that don't you think?

You will be available for any discussions regarding how she might get rid of the OM and begin working on fixing a badly damaged marriage.

She "entered into a contract" with you (in marriage) to support a household, including rent/payment and all taxes, utilities, insurance, etc. Regardless of where she chooses to live, she should made to be responsible for 1/2 of all those expenses.

Your visit with a lawyer should focus on how to make sure she is "liable and responsible" for her part of maintaining the marital household. You may have to enter into a Legal Separation Agreement to have your way, but if that's what it takes, then that's what you should do. To do otherwise would be to shield her from accepting the "fallout" from her decisions.

Don't ever use the word Divorce. If she discusses it, stick with your mantra, you are only interested in discussions about saving the marriage. Not very many waywards go ahead and file. They want both worlds, illogical as it sounds to those of us not living in the fog. However, some do, so expect the best, prepare for the worst.

Aside from the legal aspects and exposure...stay in Plan A as long as you can stand it...up to 3-4 months. After that...Plan B.

Yeah, SD, that's where I'm conflicted. Right now WW is still so angry about the exposure to her work that I think she does intend to file for D. She really has come to believe that I'm psychotic and won't let go so she has no other choice in the matter than to do the D. Who knows, maybe with a couple of days she will cool off?

When she gave me the break up speach 1-1/2 weeks ago and broke my will for a day, she wasn't talking about D...it was more about how can we keep our house, amicably split things up, etc. That is the easy way out. I realize that's b/c she was eating her cake at that point.....but it almost seems like I need to find a happy medium between her being happy and content enough to not push things to drastic measures, but at the same time she has to know I mean business and am not just OK with things. But, maybe straddling the fence doesn't do any good either? I probably need to put my foot down.....but I also need a chance to establish a good plan A too. Looks like it might just have to come down to D or at least Separation at this point.....then at least that would give me some time to do a plan A while in the waiting period before going dark.

Well, just talked to the WW. She's going to come by Sunday afternoon to get some clothes and stuff. I suggested she just stay the night so we can discuss whatever we need to discuss, maybe have dinner, etc. She pretty much declined.

Get this...she "doesn't feel comfortable" around me right now....still convinced that I might not be sane! She's got all her friends at school filling her head with "stalker" talk b/c I went to confront her principal. This couldn't be more like high school b.s. if I ever saw it.

Anyway, I've got to bone up on MY PLAN so hopefully I can get over that hurdle on Sunday. Man this sucks. I'll be honest, my LB is really starting to get drained with all the hurtful things my WW keeps saying. I will always love her and cherish her, but it sure gets tougher and tougher to understand why!

ILA...they get over the anger. It's normally gone in a week or two.

The emotional detachment of which I keep speaking is what keeps the stinging words from a WW from getting to you.

Think of her as a person who has been kidnapped, experienced a brain transplant, and been returned to you. She looks the same, but she's an entirely different person. This is the standard transformation a wayward goes through. Once you "get" that, the emotional detachment becomes routine.

Things that once made you mad can possibly make you laugh once you assume the emotionally detached level.

Work on it. Work on yourself, Plan A, and have faith this will all work.

Thanks SD....I can feel myself getting closer and closer to the detachment. At least it's getting easier to do. I think I'm getting to a place where maybe I can start into a good plan A. I just hope she doesn't push for a D too soon so I have a legitimate chance to do it right.

I have faith she will come around. The only problem is her past history says she never will go back to me....even if she does fix herself. I guess we'll see about that. I know that all of her friends and family are in favor of her coming back to me so maybe that will help.

Questions with plan A:

I haven't even had a chance to plan A yet because all WW has done is call me to b*tch about my exposure. She hasn't lived at home since a week before the EA and PA were discovered. Now she claims she isn't "comfortable" being around me because she's scared by some of the things I've done recently (like exposure to her work...thinks I'm psycho)

Right now I never see her and only talk to her when she wants to call and complain. I hate leaving her alone with this crazy view of me locked in her brain.

Is it even possible to do a proper plan A like this? I know plan A is about ME, not her noticing me.......but it sure seems like it would be easier if she was around and if she had more of a positive view of me right now.

Will her perception of me change (i.e. is this just anger from exposure) in time so that she can allow herself to remember the real me and what she's leaving behind??? It feels like I'll never get through to her at this point.

Let her anger cool down for a week or two, and be totally non-confrontational, nor defensive when she makes her foggy remarks.

Remember this: No ONE thing you do makes any difference in Plan A. It's ALL you do over an extended period (2-3 months) that makes ALL the difference.

You must give unconditionally during this time, expecting absolutely NOTHING in return. Zero, zip, nada.

As things calm down, and they will, even doing Plan A from a distance WILL make a difference. While she's away from you it FORCES the OM to meet all her needs. That will put pressure on the OM, and their sordid A. That's when she will start to make excuses to "come over" so she can get her "fix" of you. That fix must be Plan A perfect.

The better you look, and when the walls of the A start to crumble, all of which will take place slowly and over a period of time, is when she'll get a glimpse through the fog of what she's giving up. That's the dose of reality you are looking for.

Do not let her bait you into any Love Busters. Stay non-confrontational. Do the YOU part of Plan A, and make it your lifestyle.

Don't hang on every little thing she does or says, because you have no control over her. Control what you can...YOU!

Thanks, that all makes perfect sense. I have accepted these facts that you mention (whereas the first couple weeks I thought I could fix everything). I am committed to putting on the happy face and work MY plan, even in the face of poor feedback from WW.

I talked to her this afternoon as she wanted to confirm what time she could come over tomorrow to get some things(my mother's been in town and leaving tomorrow....WW didn't want to have to confront her!!). WW was out at the mall today with her sister (I think OM has his daughter this weekend) and seemed to be in good spirits. I'm hoping that some of the exposure anger has passed and we can have a good face to face tomorrow. It'll be the first time I've seen her in 2 weeks. I'll try to work my best plan A possible and hope we can avoid the D talk. If what she said on Tuesday is still in her head, then I'll be getting papers soon!

Thanks for the pep talk, I'll do my best!
ILA

Well, WW just left. First time I'd seen her in 2 weeks as she came by to pick up some things. She took a lot of clothes so I don't see her moving home anytime soon! As a matter of fact I asked her about that. She wanted to discuss options for our house, and I told her I would like her to consider moving home eventually so we didn't have to sell or rent it out....she said she sees no way that would be possible....especially since she'd still be seeing OM. "There's no way you could deal with that" and "I can't just be your roommate" were responses. There's still just no willingness for her to change things with the A.

Even though we aren't supposed to talk R....I couldn't avoid it altogether. I felt like I had some repair work to do. I can't plan A at all right now. She showed up with an attitude that she just didn't want to be friends, couldn't be around me...nothing at all (which I knew she'd come with). I felt I had to try and get her back to a level of comfort so we could at least start to converse. Right now I can't begin to meet ANY of her EN's b/c she just doesn't even want to be around me. Most of this is still a direct result of exposure anger.

I've read a lot of Pepperband's comments about plan A and so I know I need to start meeting her EN's for conversation and affection (which I think are the two biggest reasons I lost her) but when I try to talk to her, she feels pressured. Whatever I ask her about, she thinks it's all a ploy to "get her back"...even if it's innocent talk about something off the subject of US. I don't know what else to do to get her to talk to me and confide in me.

She tried to bring up the D. I did tell her that I really thought we should wait on D and/or thinking about selling our house (our biggest financial obstacle) b/c we just really didn't know where our emotions would be several months down the road. I explained that I understood she felt there was ZERO chance at US, but that it would be foolish to rush into the D. I basically said I just really don't want to discuss it yet. She ended up setting a deadline.....she said she'd give it 2 months then if nothing has changed she will file and figure out what to do with the house. I guess I at least got a 2 month stay of execution!!

Thus, I guess I've got 2 months to try and plan A my [censored] off. However, it might take that long just to get her back on friendly terms where I can start to meet her EN's!

After she left she did call back to apologize for "not being able to be friendly right now" and "she felt bad about that". Maybe that's a good sign, I don't know....at least a morsel of remorse for a change. Basically, she just admits that she can't let herself be friendly to me b/c it "gives me false hope" that something's going to work out b/w us. "And that's not healthy" is her reasoning. I tried to explain that there's a difference between: 1) accepting the situation for what it currently is and working to better myself and MY life (which I said I was doing and she acknowledges) and 2) holding out hope and putting effort towards saving our M. I tried to tell her that I WOULD have a great life one way or another, that I WOULD find another great person and WOULD have a great family....because I know I'm a good person, and now with what I've learned through this I'm going to be so much better. Then I said, "right now though, I still want that other person to be you because I love you and you alone". She agreed that I would do great in life, but probably didn't want to hear about it being with HER!

It just seems like such a fine line. If she thinks I'm harboring any hope of US then she doesn't want to communicate or be around me....thus I can't really meet EN's or plan A. If I tell her I give up then I could at least start to meet her EN's as a friend again....but I can't just do that right?

How do I approach my WW when she just won't even let me get close to her emotions? As long as I show any hope in US....she's going to keep me at a distance. I've got 2 months till DIV-day....how can I properly plan A like this when she won't let me through this wall? I sure don't think I can plan B without laying that plan A foundation. Help me vets!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You live your life well. You make those changes in you that are part of Plan A and keep them in place. You remain non-confrontational, but you protect your assets.

As I stated in an earlier post, this forces the OM to meet all her needs, which he can't do. She will be keeping tabs on you and your progress through mutual friends, and a "need" to contact you on a variety of issues, which is an excuse to get her fix....of you.

ILA, you must be patient, and let this play out. Exposure is done, and your WW has made her choice. Give her some time to see how her choice is working out, and in the mean time use your resources to become the very best H you can be.

Spend some energy working on your house. Especially if your W wanted a room painted or some projects done, work on those first. Fill her EN's from afar. Keep the house neat, tidy and smelling like you. If she's "coming over to pick something up" prepare a meal you know she likes and just have enough "extra" for her to partake.

Be creative, be patient, be positive, and spend the time she is away with the OM in positive ways. She will notice!

Thanks, SD....I have been doing some of the things you mentioned. I've been keeping the house nice, done some things to tidy up. I've lost 32 lbs. in 6 1/2 weeks (which isn't healthy weightloss...but I've got a trainer and in the gym so it's not all that bad either). I feel good about myself and think I'm looking, dare I say "sexy" again?? Actually weigh less now than I did for our wedding so I know she likes that. I'm still very anxious and depressed though obviously. I need to see someone about that....it's really affecting my work and my life in general. I try to show my WW that I'm doing fine and I think she sees that. She does compliment me on how I look and thanks me for certain things I've done around the house.

Does any of that really get through to her? She acknowledges it but then basically says it's too little too late again. She just flat out believes that there is no going back.....that's her history and her pattern too unfortunately so I tend to believe her. I know her family pretty much believes her b/c they've seen it happen again and again.

I sure don't see anything changing in just 2 months time. It really looks like the D will happen at this point. I've got 8 months until it would be complete, but in the meantime we'll be selling or renting the house, moving to new apartments, etc. Once that ball starts rolling I don't know if it can be turned around.

Funny you mentioned painting a room or something around the house. There are a couple of tasks like that I've been saving hoping I can convince her to come home on a weekend and help me do it. Painting our bedroom is one of them. We've always enjoyed doing things like that together so I figured that my be a big plan-A opportunity......but I don't know if she'll come and join in or if I just need to do it myself.

I wish I could get her into counseling to address some of her personal issues. She knows she has them, but thinks she's in control of them too....just doesn't seem to want help right now...in true addict fashion. I almost feel like even if A ends, she won't come back to me until she addresses these other issues. They will continue to hold her back just like they have in the past.

Sucks....2 months just isn't enough time for all of this to happen! I'll keep trying my best at plan A from afar. Sounds like she MIGHT be opening up a little bit today in regard to a willingness to communicate a little more. I think last night was successful in that I got her over the psycho image she had of me after exposure to her work! I followed it with an email this morning of WHY I haven't given up on the marriage and WHY I know it can work out.......but also made it clear that I understand the REALITY of the situation right now and that I can't change anything with US....only she can. All I can do is make ME better. I think that will help get her to open up to me at least. We'll see.

Thanks for the help guys......keep it coming <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ILA wrote: " I need to see someone about that....it's really affecting my work and my life in general."

See your personal physician and ask about some anti-depressive medication. It will keep you grounded. Some get along ok, others hate 'em and give 'em up almost immediately. It may keep you calm enough to do your work.


ILA wrote: "She does compliment me on how I look and thanks me for certain things I've done around the house. Does any of that really get through to her?"

I'll repeat myself..."No ONE thing you do will make ANY difference in your situation. EVERYTHING you do CONSISTANTLY over a 2-3 month period of time will make ALL the difference!!! Got it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


ILA wrote: "I almost feel like even if A ends, she won't come back to me until she addresses these other issues."

And you are going to stop "hearing" the fog talk when? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


ILA wrote: "Sucks....2 months just isn't enough time for all of this to happen!"

And what "hasn't" happened so far, that we told you "would" happen? Have you no faith? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


ILA wrote: "Funny you mentioned painting a room or something around the house. There are a couple of tasks like that I've been saving hoping I can convince her to come home on a weekend and help me do it. Painting our bedroom is one of them."

Nope, she is not invited, nor will you accept her help. This is YOUR project, something that will say to WW..."ILA is strong, confident, looking good, non-confrontational....and...it appears he "might" be getting along just fine without me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Maybe OM is not too good by comparison after all? Maybe ILA really loves me, and I am making a HUGE mistake? Maybe I should think this through a bit more before I give up such an outstanding man, as ILA obviously is? Man, I'm confused" Besides, you need something to do with all the nervous energy all this chaos creates. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Settle in for a long ride, ILA. This is going to be your life for the next few months. And if all this is successful, then we work on all the perils of recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Taint none of it easy...

Well, got some bad news today. I emailed OMW just to check in and see how she was doing. She emailed me back and said she'd decided to give up and move on. This is odd b/c just a week and a half ago she told me she was committed to doing everything to save her marriage.

My WW told me last night that OMW actually called Dr. Phil show. OMW said she had a long talk with OM a few days ago and was convinced that OM was through and really didn't want to be with her any more (I'm sure that long talk was spurred on by the Dr. Phil call!)

This sounds exactly like what WW has done to me. As soon as I get too close she has to give me the 'break up' speach again.....and it usually is very convincing and a real downer. I've been close to giving up twice now too, but after about 24 hours my mind comes around again and I find renewed hope. I think the same thing just happened to her. But, she's been dealing with this longer so maybe she really is done trying?

This makes me feel bad, because I thought she was going to be my biggest ally. I really thought that the A would die b/c OM would be drawn back to his wife and child. Now it doesn't look like that will happen. He's going to get his cake and eat it too b/c OMW will still be his friend....for the kid's sake.....she's told me that.

Is there anything I can do in light of finding out this news? It seems like this just paves the way for an easier road to continue the A now that OMW has thrown in the towel. I don't know, maybe the quicker they have at it, the quicker the A will run its course and die???

At least my WW sounded more cheerful in the VM's we traded today....never actually spoke to her though. Maybe I was somewhat successful in bringing her mood back a bit to where I can do a successful plan A.

Have you let OM's W know about this website?

ILA, getting into your situation late due to my own mess, but I think our situations have a lot of similarities.

I wa also going to ask about the OMW knowing about this site? I can't think of any negatives from that. Her knowledge, support, assistance. Don't forget- she is riding the rollercoaster as well, so don't let a hasty communication with you decide her intent.

It is a famous battle tactic to use the "horns of the bull". You two could attack the enemy with both of you being an individual horn, and attacking a common enemy from both sides. Crazy analogy, but accurate I suppose. Plus, the communication, mutual support, and cooperative intelligence gathering may be helpful.

Good luck

I Did tell OMW about this site the same day I exposed to her. I talked to her a week and a half ago for 2 1/2 hours! and she mentioned she'd checked it out but hadn't been on chat boards....I suggest she do it, but I doubt she has.

I agree she's on the roller coaster and OM has just broken her spirit, but who knows if she'll come back around. OMW was the one who initially sounded the alarm in their M and they've been unhappy for a long time. Of course the EA between OM and my WW was likely going on for a lot of that time and causing problems in their M as well (like it was to mine, even though I didn't realize it). I wish OMW would get back up on the horse and keep pushing, but something tells me she may really be fed up. I'd like to talk to her about plan B, but with a child and likely equal custody, I don't think she could or would do a good plan B. I don't know if I can interfere too much with her???

As for me, talked to WW at noon and she was in a real good mood. It lifts my spirits to hear that, even though I know it's not because of US....it's still nice to hear after all the venom recently.

I guess I accomplished my goal over the last 2 days.......to get her to a state of mind where we could be civil and converse. I need to try and meet her EN's and do a good plan A, but there was no chance of that as angry as she's been recently.

I feel like I did some real good exposure, pissed WW off real good with it, now almost feel like I have to back track just a hair to get her feeling comfortable enough where I can plan A and have good, friendly conversation with her. Is this the wrong approach????

Before she was only happy for 2 days....both times that she thought she'd convinced me to give up. As soon as I explained I wasn't giving up, she got very distant again.

In order to set up a proper plan A, I wanted to draw her out of her shell a bit but didn't want her to get the wrong idea either.

I feel like I've done that better this time. I told her I understand the reality of the current situation, not that I'm ok with it or like it. I then explained that she needs to know I'm NOT giving up hope or my efforts though. I wanted her to be clear about that.

I explained WHY I'm maintaining hope and why we CAN work things out.....not that we WILL, but that we CAN. It seems like she's accepted that now, whereas before she wouldn't. The fact that she sounds happier now makes me wonder though.....does she think she's finally 'winning'??? OMW just gave up and I know OM has told WW of this. Now that I've given in just a bit....is this sending the wrong message???

I know I HAVE to do a good plan A.....and it seems like I HAVE to have my WW receptive to being friendly and ok with spending some time together and holding good converstaion....that's the only way to meet EN's right? I don't want her to get the wrong impression though either.

Am I rambling??? Do these questions make sense???

Thanks - ILA

P.S. WW mentioned today that she was to meet with advisor from her Aunt's church again today or tomorrow. Maybe that helps a little too....who knows. Also, the part of WW's family that has COMPLETELY cut her off is really bothering WW....she's dropped several snippits about it recently so I know it's weighing on her.

Well, don't know when I'll talk to WW next...I plan on letting her call me. She talked like she wanted to get together next week to go over some finances. Even though I'd told her I don't want to discuss D (and she put a 2-month moratorium on that), splitting up some of our bills would be a good idea in my mind. I figure that making her pay her own bills might put some more pressure on her. Is that appropriate for plan A? She also 'wants her paycheck' so that's part of it. Right now it gets direct deposited to our joint acct. and she knows we need all of OUR money to get by this month so maybe she'll realize just how little money she actually has if we split some things up. Anyway, that may be the next time I see her.

My biggest patriot right now is WW's brother (not real brother, but family she grew up with....they are VERY close). He's (and the rest of his family) cut her off almost completely and I know this really bother's WW. Brother also just broke up with his girlfriend of 4 years and although it wasn't an affair situation as much....still a lot of similarities between the way FGF is acting and my WW.

Apparently my WW and his FGF talked yesterday and word got back to him. He says my WW only told her side of the story and that the two women agreed on what they were doing......great, now WW has another foggy head to support her!!

I'm happy WW is in a better mood and we can be civil, but it seems like it's b/c she feels less pressure from me now......I don't know if this is where I need to be.

Funny story, WW's brother told me he went to FGF's place to drop off mail. He was dressed to kill and going out with friends (including FGF's sister). FGF came out in pajamas and looked really depressed when seeing how good he looked. I told him 'great job'.....you are a plan A expert and don't even realize it!

Anyway, I wish I could see results, but know not to expect them. I keep trying to come up with plan A ideas but when you never see WW it seems difficult to execute. I feel like she's just counting the days until she files for D in 2 months.

Getting the finances in order is priority one, along with Plan A. You may need an attorney to keep her from shorting the marital budget of sufficient funds to keep the household afloat.

You really need a plan for how to protect your assets. If she takes her check and her and OM go on a cruise, and you are short on household budget, it will not be good for either of you.

The two months moratorium is Fog talk. She doesn't "really" want to give up her marriage, but the addiction won't let her give up the OM. Mark that as a good sign.

If you can work the numbers on what the "marital household" needs in way of her paycheck, and she has only left what would be "disposable income", that will be a good dose of reality for her. I don't know if you can pull that off or not, or if a LSA would be in order. I never got to that point, so have no experience from which to advise.

You sound strong, and that's good. Don't fret the fact that you are not seeing her much, and continue to use that freedom from the chaos to formulate and work your plans.

You have this all down, now, so walk the walk!

Yeah, I keep thinking about what she said. She asked me what WE were going to do...I think that's also good. I told her that I thought our feelings changed a ton in 6mo. to go from the happiest day of our lives to where we are now....that our feelings might change a whole lot more in another 6 mo. I said I didn't even want to talk D, but she had to do what she had to do. That's when she said she'd give it 2 months. "and if nothing changes by then we need to file for D" or "if you want to contest it, then fine, but I'm not going to put it off any longer". I felt good about it simply b/c she went from wanting D immediately to waiting 2 mths. But, she's foggy so I should probably quit trying to figure out what she's thinking.


That's my plan. She's going to find out she doesn't have much left....but she's also holding out until we get tax return in March.


I was sort of thinking I could plan A the best I can for 2 mths. then if she hasn't woken up yet (which I don't think she will by then) I could suggest LSA instead of D. Does that make sense?

Caught up briefly on your sitch and what keeps jumping out at me is the E/N thing. Very hard to openly meet E/N's of a WW who is not fence sitting. WW usually do not fence sit as they cannot divide their loyalties as easily as many men can.

Meeting E/N's is a part of Plan A only as much as they will allow it, and it is not going to be an overt thing anyway, as they usually either feel too guilty to let you or are downright against it.

Just identify the areas where you feel you may have done better in this dept. If hers is conversation, be open to converstation when SHE persues conversation. Be open to affection when SHE persues.

Plan A is really about being a lighthouse and demonstrating changes that would make you the more desirable spouse (as much as you can demonstrate without being pushy), and most of all AVOIDING LB's (angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, relationship talk is normally an LB to a wayward, etc). Try to check out Ark's "Light House" thread...very good stuff in there.

Also ILA, you have about three to six months of Plan A time, so learn above all else PATIENCE. Settle in and concentrate on the areas where you have control, as Shattered Dreams is going over with you).

Josie made some really good points about ENs and LBs, ILA.

Your WW is not going to gracefully allow you to Plan A her. She will see your positive changes even if she doesn't comment on it. Don't tell her all the ways you're changing and growing...your words probably don't mean any more to her right now than her words mean to you. A calm and strong demeanor will speak louder anyway.

Don't fret so much about "coming up with Plan A ideas". Just continue to work on making yourself as confident, appealing, and healthy a man (inside and out) as you can be. Don't worry about the whole 2 months thing...it may or may not mean anything. And you shouldn't live your life as a slave to HER timetable.

Everyone is SO right -- you're just going to have to be patient now. But, that doesn't mean sitting around waiting for an opportunity to "Plan A her"! Go out with some fun friends...get back into a hobby you've neglected...try out a cool new restaurant...just live your life, ILA. It will not only make you happier, it'll also make an impact on your FWW.

Continue to stay away from relationship talk. Like Josie said, it's very likely an LB to her.

Shattered Dreams is right that you need to get that financial stuff worked out. {I hope you're appreciating the great help you've been getting here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />} This is an emotional situation, but there are some practical things you can do to limit the damage. Don't wait until the worst case scenario happens before you prepare for it!

You're doing fine, ILA. Just hang in there....

Lori

Thanks for the input.....very good reminders JJ and AP. You're exactly right about the R talk being a LB. For the first 2-3 weeks after A discovered, I did WAY too much of that.....I just hadn't learned and understood the PLAN well. She's even told me "there's NO chance for any future b/w us b/c of how you've handled this whole situation". I know that's BS and Fogspeak, but she's still telling me just how much the R talk bothers her.....it IS a big LB right now.

I'll admit too, that will be the most difficult thing to avoid. Just knowing myself, I will be tempted on many occassions to jump into that talk and try to "convince her" that she's better off with me.......I'll do my best to stay strong and avoid that though.

If I had to chose the top 3 EN's for WW I think it would be Affection, Communication, SF. I see now that none of those were present over the last couple of months and that's what led to the loss of "in love" and her running into the A. That seems pretty clear to me.

I'm going to try to meet EN for Communication (although it will be difficult to do so AND avoid R talk....but I'll try my best). I don't know about Affection....she may not allow that much b/c her defenses are so high. SF seems like it's way out of the picture right now. But, she actually told me "I don't have any desire to sleep with you anymore....my feelings are purely platonic (she's said platonic to several people in her family). The fact that she keeps saying that makes me wonder if maybe she really does have those feeling still but is just concentrating on repressing them. Does any of that make sense or am I out to lunch?

I'm torn right now on how much I should contact WW. JJ, what you said about only being able to plan A as much as she allows it........that seems RIGHT ON TARGET. That's what I'm seeing. She's acknowledged my efforts recently and she sees I'm trying, but she doesn't want to let it affect her....she's got her battle armor on. In my attempts to communicate, I feel like I want to call her or ask her out....but do you think that will only LB on her? Should I wait for her to contact me instead? It's only been 4 days since we saw each other and 2 days since speaking.....but I already miss her voice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It almost feels like I'm doing a pseudo plan B (since she's away) while I'm also trying to plan A..........this is where I get confused!

If you lean too hard on someone leaning the other way, you will fall down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep your distance and allow her to be drawn to you.

Ultimately, the goal is to reach recovery, and establish a marriage where 2 independent people lean equally on each other.

Right now, you are in Plan A, filling her EN's as the opportunity presents, living life proudly and independently, and letting OM "try" to meet all her needs.

You will start seeing her making excuses to get a "fix" of you, by phone calls, or "needing" to get some of her stuff.

Play it cool!

For Valentines Day... A long stemmed rose with a framed picture of you and her, the most recent, or memorable picture you can think of!

I understand SD. Seems like right now she's content that I've backed off a bit so she's not going to call me for a few days (mostly only time she called before was to fight or confront me about who I exposed to). She was going to come over this weekend to sit down and see what bills we could split up, but she claims she has to work on Sat. so probably can't come over this weekend. Ironically enough, I think this is the weekend OMW has custody of their child....hmmm.

Anyway, I'll heed your advice and try to let her come to me.

As for V-Day....I like your suggestion. That's sort of what I was leaning towards...something simple that reminds her that I care and is a memory of our past. Thought I might even make a little picture book with several photos and maybe a poem or something that reflects on some good memories.

Thanks SD

A good thing to remember when conversation is someone's top need, is to be a good listener. The best conversationalists always listen more than they talk, and when they do talk it is to ask a question pertaining to what the other person is talking about or to clarify.

This is especially true when someone is trying to get away from you as in a wayward.

Just listen to her because the more you talk the more likely you are to get on the relationship tangent and all you will do is reinforce her justification that you are selfish and all you care about is yourself.

If you do have to be the one to call her, call when you have a reason to and be gracious, meaning be the first to say, "well, I won't keep you, I'll let you get going"...

In looking at your sig line I wonder what ended her first marriage. Already leaving her second marriage I would say that she operates from feelings and not intellect, so this is what you are going to have to appeal to.

And remember this is a covert thing, this feeling stuff.

She will want to come to you and talk to you the more you just listen. Someone who listens to someone else makes THEM feel good about themself.

So LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN...make it about her.

NO relationship talk unless she initiates and then you just listen and empathize.

Hope that helps ILA...when you are feeling somewhat obsessed, when the attachment you feel towards her is ruling your actions...it is very difficult, but you can do it.

I think her top need is affection, but number 2 is probably convo. I'm not that talkative usually and AM the listener. I've always felt that's what makes me a good frined/companion is my ability to listen.

Over the last 2 months, though, WW never wants to talk at all so I've been leading conversations....which is not like me...and which, I agree, is making me sound self-serving (she even has told me that).

I know this now and recently have tried to pull back. Only problem is, if I don't talk then we are just going to sit there in silence! I know she hates the fact that I'm never "talkative" on the phone (I'm fine in person just never know what to say on the phone for some reason...i think that's sort of a guy thing). OM is apparently VERY talkative and I think she loves that.

So, yeah, it's confusing....but I'm trying to do what you say JJ and listen as much as possible....but I'm just listening to silence!


Like I said above....you're absolutely right about this and I realize it now and am correcting it as much as i can.


I did have to call her last night b/c one of our 2 cats is on his deathbed with a urinary tract blockage that he's been batting off and on for months. He's alreay had a surgery but just isn't going to beat this.....we've both agreed that he needs to be put out of his misery. Problem came back again a couple days ago and he's not getting over it this time. I called last night to tell her I think we need to put him down tonight. She said "I've got plans Friday night and have to work Sat. morning".....can you believe that!!! So I said I'd try to wait 'till Sat. morning to call her and see how cat is doing.

I told her she needs to be present if we make the decision to put him down....and she seemed to agree, but still was more concerned with her 'plans'. She wants me to take care of it, but I won't let her out of the responsibility if I can help it.....of course I'm not going to make the cat suffer just to make a point to WW though...so we'll have to see.

We didn't fight about things, it was all good conversation. I asked quickly about her work, told her about my work. Then I asked if she was getting enough sleep. I told her that I'd been stressed and I knew she was equally that way...and I just hoped she was taking care of her health b/c I didn't want to see her get sick.

That was it, short and sweet. She was in an OK mood, nothing great....but at least no R talk or LB's. yea!


I guess EVERYONE hated her 1st H. She was only 18 too so it was different. I guess he was EXTREMELY controlling and everyone was happy to see her leave him. Totally opposite in my case! But, she was already seeing someone else before the D so THAT is a definite pattern unfortuantely. Through IC and MC I think I understand why she is in this place right now....combination of past issues, addictions, feelings taking over, etc. You're right though....she's very intelligent and thought based usually, but when she gets to this point she's working completely off feelings. My W is a much different person than my WW who is running solely off feelings and emotions right now. I hope the pratical, intelligent W surfaces sometime soon!

Thanks JJ

I just found out she's going to Disneyland tonight....I'm sure with OM and OM's daughter. That's a punch in the gut.

Now I think they are starting to introduce the daughter to my WW and win her over with stuff like Disneyland....yikes! Maybe they feel since OMW has given up this week that it's time to start bringing the daughter around?

WW and OM have their whole life planned out already. She claims that this is her soulmate and she's never felt anything before like what she feels for him. They FLAT OUT BELIEVE THIS...both of them! These feelings run REALLY deep between them. I read over and over that this is fog talk.....but man it's hard to see them EVER having this relationship end! They are both intelligent people and are convinced that this is the RIGHT THING for them both. I just wish he would do something stupid to make WW wake up....but I don't know that he will. I can totally see them "working out" together.

I guess this is where my sit. differs from that of TMTS for example. How do you combat an A that you don't think will end? Stick to the plans is the only way I guess right?


Ugh! This sucks.

Is OM officially divorced yet? If not, OMW could file a court order keeping your WW away from her daughter.

I feel like I've just gotten a sign from above.....I mentioned my WW said she'd wait 2 months until D to "see if anything changes". Last night I was looking into some of the coaching and events that MB sponsors. I looked into the MB weekend.

Guess what is happening 2 months...TO THE DAY...from when my WW said she'd wait on D? You guessed it, the MB weekend.

Here's the spooky part....it is in Anaheim, CA...about 2 miles from where we live! I don't think I could have had more of a golden opportunity placed in my lap than this!

Now, here's where I need your advice.......I doubt if my WW will be open to doing this anytime soon. I have 1 month to enroll for that weekend and I don't see her coming around by then.

Even if she hasn't left the OM and even if she doesn't want to work on our M.......if there's any way to get her to attend that weekend with me, do you think it will be beneficial? I don't care about the $$, there is no pricetag on saving my M to her. I sure feel like it would help....her biggest thing right now is that "my love for you is gone and it will never come back" That's what she's convinced of. Hearing about how we CAN recover has GOT to do some good don't you think?

I don't know how to talk her into this though. I sure don't want to push this on her yet, but I've only got a few weeks to enroll too. Thoughts on this?

How can I pass up on opportunity like this....right in my own backyard?

Thanks
ILA

OM's daughter may have a clue that she's "giving up" her real mommy for your WW, and she may not take to well to that. Better yet, she'll be openly rude about it, and cause strife between WW and OM.

The more strife between them, the better.

If you know for a fact this is taking place, you should let the OM's W know it. Then it's up to her to do as she sees fit, but I bet she won't be too happy about it. Have your facts straight.

On the MB weekend, IMHO, if the A is still active, it would be a waste of your money. My W was still an active wayward and we spent $$$ on MC, and she was so fogged she couldn't give the MC a truthful response about anything. It was all a waste of time and money.

IF, something happens and the A falls apart and NC is established before your last minute drop-dead date to register, then it's something you should POJA with your (F)WW.

And you posted "WW and OM have their whole life planned out already. She claims that this is her soulmate and she's never felt anything before like what she feels for him. They FLAT OUT BELIEVE THIS...both of them! These feelings run REALLY deep between them. I read over and over that this is fog talk.....but man it's hard to see them EVER having this relationship end! They are both intelligent people and are convinced that this is the RIGHT THING for them both."

Purely fog. All waywards feel exactly like this. Stay out of her chaos, and repel the fog talk!

Thanks SD....deep down I have to know that is fog talk.... but sometimes the thought that maybe they are meant for each other still creeps in my mind. I just need to hear it from somebody to make me feel better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree on the waste of money. I haven't even given MC another thought, although I'm doing IC and my WW claims she will also (she is seeing someone from her Aunt's church I know)....but I know MC is a waste right now.

As for the MB weekend though....she doesn't have to give answers or talk to anyone about our R......she just has to sit and listen for 2 days. Don't you think that might be money well spent? Can't that surely cut through a little fog? If not right then, at least down the road?

If you are not concerned about the $$, and you think there's a chance she might attend, you never know what seeds might be planted that will help you in your efforts to save your marriage.

No seeds, no impact... your call <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ironically, I just noticed the quote at the bottom of your profile, SD.........maybe that's what I'm doing here...trying to spend money to buy time? :P

I'd like to see what some of the other posters think on the MB weekend question. That's what makes these forums great...!

Yes, please, please!!! Will this do any good even if WW is still in a fog and doesn't want to work on M yet? I don't see this as MC as much as just a 'training seminar' if you will.

Thoughts?

Okay, SD and ILA. Here's what I think...

2 months, or even a month 2 sign up, is plenty of time 2 get advice from the experts - by calling either Steve or Jennifer. Get a coaching arrangement started. If there's any chance of getting your W enticed in2 participating, they are the ones 2 do it.

I have a fair amount of experience with the whole MC/IC thing from the first several months after d-day.

First, I went 2 an IC at work - she was great, and had nearly all the right answers for ME at the time.

2nd, I went 2 another IC who she recommended, away from work, who had some good thoughts and some not so good thoughts (he ac2ally believed in "measured honesty" - which is the same as "measured deceit" and even told me that if my W had come 2 him on her own before d-day, he would have advised that she not tell me of the A if I hadn't found out about it on my own). I ended up simply stopping those sessions after a 2ple months.

3rd, and not long after the 2 ICers I went 2, my W agreed we should do MC 2gether. We have an HMO, and so our sessions were only 5 bucks each visit. ...and worth every penny! I'm being sarcastic with that, of course. We seldom met more than once every 3 weeks, the MC clearly had no experience with infidelity (she was a social worker, not a therapist or coach), and she had no session-2-session stru2re at all. I wasn't disappointed in the least when we stopped seeing her, as we weren't getting anywhere.

I had one session with SH, but it was 7 months after d-day. I wish I had called a lot sooner than I did. Because, if you're going 2 hit the A head-on, which is in a sense what you're doing by working with the MB plans, you want someone who knows what order 2 address what issues in. The Harleys are the obvious experts in doing that, because they authored the methods you're using here.

I had several sessions over the next year or so with an MB-trained coach not affiliated with the Harleys. Those were productive 2 a point. That point being that my W never wanted on board with the MB methods at all. Also, I had gotten in2 a much more stable place emotionally, very much with the help of the personal coaching, and so I stopped the sessions.

My W had a 2ple of ICs at our HMO. I know very little about whether they were truly productive or not. Which is probably 2 say that they weren't, at least from the perspective of saving our marriage.

Nevertheless, save our marriage we did.

2 sum up, I'd have 2 say that early on coaching with the Harleys is the best idea. I wouldn't plan on registering for the weekend without their help in enticing your WW 2 participate - assuming she will (frankly, I think it's probably going 2 be 2 soon, but you should ask them).

MCing is a waste of money without both partners interested in fixing the M. IC isn't as much of a waste, but it can still be one, if you're focusing on saving your marriage on your own - you may spend all your time and money trying 2 guess what your WW is thinking and doing. But if it's 2 make yourself a better person, FOR yourself (not anyone else, particularly your WW), then it can be productive. But early on, it's 2 easy for the BS 2 get socked in2 their own fog (there is such a thing, as you'll no doubt discover, if you haven't already).

Persevere,
-ol' 2long

Thanks for the input 2long...I must say I tend to agree with you on all this. The problem is, right now I can't get WW to even consider any MC, Harley's (although I haven't asked), and likely not the weekend.

It does seem like 2 soon to get her to commit to the weekend thing....but it's right in our backyard and seems like such a golden opportunity and all.

I just got back from having to put our cat to sleep. WW didn't even come with b/c she had to work this morning. She has called to ask how it went and I was pretty emotional still. (I suggest never putting a pet down less than a month after d-day!) I just told her I really need her to come home tonight...just b/c of what I just had to do ON MY OWN! Her foggy response....I don't know if I feel comfortable doing that....see, she doesn't even want to consider working on ANYTHING presently.

If she calls me back later and does decide to come over....it will be tough to avoid any R talk with the emotional state we will likely both be in b/c of talking about the pet. I'll have to see how it goes.

I would like to get her to speak w/ Harley's but she's so defiant that I think it might not do any good.

ILA:

The differences in our sitches aren't as important as the similarities at this time:

I've been married now for over 32 years, whereas you've been married 2 your W for less than a year.

So what?

What's so similar, and scripted, is how YOU feel now, and how I remember I felt "back then." No difference.

Pets, family, Model A Fords (okay, maybe you're not in2 those) - doesn't matter what it is. You will be blamed for not "giving enough" of yourself in whatever area is being used 2 justify at the moment - or your feelings will be disregarded in ways that you would never have imagined possible - like the seemingly uncaring atti2de about the putty tat. (we have cats 2, and though they've never been "mine", I've loved them anyway).

Try not 2 be so concerned about whether she agrees 2 participate in MC or (better, by far) MARRIAGE COACHING, and focus on getting yourself in2 an emotionally healthy state of mind, because her A needs 2 burn out before she can participate in any meaningful way, if that ever happens.

Right now, I can accept and understand that you're at a point where you need 2 read and internalize the affair-related survival publications like SAA. There are a number of others that are excellent as well, like Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends", and others by M. Scott Peck and Frank Pittman (an interesting character in his own right, and a great read). Further down the personal recovery track, I'd highly recommend David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage". It's kind of disjointed in some ways, but the introductory chapters and the one on building your own crucible are excellent from a personal standpoint. Getting a little more esoteric, perhaps, are "The Power of NOW" by Eckhardt Tolle, which is mostly about personal spiri2al health than relationship-building but one of the most useful things I ever read - and I'm an atheist.

Hey, my daughter used to work at Disneyland. We live nearby.

-ol' 2long

Mourn the loss of the cat 2gether, as a couple, with no R talks. The death of a beloved pet may draw her out of the fog a bit. You might get a glimpse of your "former" wife, before the aliens abducted her.

Not the time to push her away, IMHO.

Try not to use this to "guilt" her into anything. Yes it hurts, even more so that she couldn't be bothered. Just don't expect her to have any empathy in her wayward state. I'm so sorry for your loss.

(((ILA)))

Well, you're all exactly right....WW is not coming over today. She called back and we talked briefly about the cat. I told her how hard it was to do alone...especially with all of the "other stuff" going on. She acknowledged and said she was sorry. But that's her answer to everything...I'm sorry...but she thinks that cures everything!

I asked what plans she had today and she said she didn't know. I asked again if she wanted to come over tonight, just simply b/c of the fact I just put down our pet and it would be nice if she was home for a while. She told me she just didn't want to be here, that she doesn't consider this her home any more.....ouch.

She said she just can't be friends and hang out with me b/c she knows I've got "alterior motives". I said, yeah, I guess I can admit to that. Sure I want to save our marriage, but I also understand the way you feel....there's a difference. I said the fact that we are still husband and wife makes me feel that we should still try to find SOME time for each other. Her response: we are only husband and wife b/c I haven't filed for D yet. I'm with somebody else and I can't be friends with you until you understand that.

That's pretty much it. I didn't argue it or push any further R talk...just said I understand her feelings and I know I'm not going to do or say anything to change that right now. I told her I'd let her go and we could talk again soon. That's all.

This is so difficult b/c she is just SO DAMN defiant. I don't know if this is typical or not. I do know that this is her history. She makes her OWN decision (never a mutual, well-communicated one), says she's done, moves on to the next guy, and NEVER looks back. This is her M.O. this is her history.

It's like SHE's plan B'ing ME. I'm trying to put my faith into a solid plan A for a month or two, but it's really hard today to keep my head up. She is just adamant that we are done and her life is with somebody else.

Thought the cat thing might open her up a bit....but it didn't seem to phase her except that she acknowledged that I was taking it hard and once again she "was sorry".

This SUCKS!

BTW, 2 long, thanks for all the great books....I'm sure I'll get to them. I've been living on the Harley books, this website, etc.....almost feel like I'm doing TOO much reading and it keeps me from 'letting go' like I should be???

"The Power of NOW" seems interesting. My WW and I are both pretty much agnostic, not really a huge believer in organized religion, but still have a spirtitual side. WW has started to see her Aunt's church advisor since the A and I know she's been wanting to reconnect to that spiritualism (I found some personal notes from a few months ago where she mentions it). I'll definitely have to check it out for me....and who knows, maybe she'll read it too...but I doubt it!

The first chapter of the Power of Now is online here, if you're interested:

http://www.iloveulove.com/spirituality/pon/ponch1.htm

Another one that I found useful that I forgot 2 mention is "The Truth about Relationships" by Greg Baer (not Bear, the SciFi author!):

http://www.iloveulove.com/unconditlove/relationships.htm

These books are both somewhat esoteric, or seem that way, particularly when you're in the throes of dealing with an active affair. When I was, I found them rather refreshing - changing the subject so I could stop dwelling on it.

The Harleys ac2ally caution against "unconditional love", particularly when dealing with an affair. I think that the reason for this is largely because most people don't understand it and therefore misapply it, and let themselve get taken advantage of.

Your mileage may vary.

-ol' 2long

Well 2long, just ordered Power of Now....sounds good, right along the lines of what I and WW need to read. Thank you again.

Today's been really tough for whatever reason. I think it's just a lot of emotions, with putting down our cat, speaking to WW and getting a reassurance that we are total done, knowing what her exact plans have been the last 2 days with OM....etc.

I've been pretty worthless today. Just sat around and watched TV and got nothing accomplished. Definitely not a productive plan A day, that's for sure.

I really am trying to understand what I can do when WW is giving ME a plan B of her own? Are WW's usually that defiant and unwilling to communicate about anything? Doesn't even seem like she wants to "have her cake and eat it too" anymore....she just wants her new cake ONLY :P

I know I've got to quit REACTING...I'm just killing myself today. I'm sure it'll get better, but today's a tough one. Think I might go watch SB tomorrow with SIL/BIL or else MIL and WW's grandma. I need to be around somebody supportive....sitting around alone today blows!

Thanks for the support everyone.

It's much easier to use your time and energy on some projects around the house, and all that fits into your plan.

ILA,

On the MB weekend in a couple of months, not only a waste of time but the same as relationship talk. She is trying to get away from you, not build a marriage, so trying to get her to a marriage building weekend would be tantamount to love busting.

What I meant about covert is that you have to appeal to her feelings, not her intellect by asking her to do something to try to regain her marital feelings towards you.

Now is affair busting time, marriage building time comes later. However, with her leaving as she did and being so decisive on it as well...

ILA, I know this is not what you want to hear, but I think you should really try to put your pain aside for a moment and really think about if this is what you want to do. Is this really what you want to do, get her back? With no kids, I don't know that I would.

You said this -



Past behavior is a very good indicator of future behavior...her track record isn't so hot. She can change of course, but that is not in your control.

And ILA, if you want children some day, please think about this. It may be a far wiser choice to find a woman who will be a good mother to your future children, and who places more value on marriage, then to try a get this one back. She's not a good bet. I mean she is willing to play house with a little girls father, a little girl whose mom and family is being destroyed right now, destroyed by her.

I don't want to hurt you further than you already are, and I value marriage above all else...but sometimes you have to look to making hard choices so that you can have a good solid marriage in the future.

JJ, very poinient comments. I hear them and understand them. There are times that I ask myself those questions, but I quickly reconsider for some reason.

I'm pretty sure that the reason I can't let go and can't accept her behavior as being real is that I'm extremely confident that this is something beyond her immediate control.

WW has past issues from her childhood....father issues. She's had to live her life being her own daddy and that's why she's always been with a man...never ever on her own. Every time a relationship starts to struggle a little bit and/or reaches a milestone of committment, she gets scared. Then she loses her self esteem and she starts to look for ways to convince herself that she's going to be hurt again by the man in her life.

So, she finally puts up a wall and runs to someone new to start over. Our MC tells me this part of it is an addiction (which she specializes in) to norepanephrin (sp?)(chemical in the brain that causes gambling, affairs, etc....the need for the rush of excitement and newness....things that give you the short term high). I understand it b/c I used to have a big gambling problem and have gone through it. This is how she immediately tries to regain her self esteem and find happiness, by running to her "drug" of choice when things in her relationship start to go South.

When I say it's her pattern...this is what I mean. All of her family see it as being the same thing she's done before, too. Part of what she does is put up this wall and never look back.....which is what I continually hear over and over...."I will never have the same feelings for you that I used to"

I guess the reason I don't give up on her is b/c I feel like she's 'sick' and I love her and I want to help her. What would you do if your loved one was diagnosed with another serious ailment? That's how I feel. For the first time, I've got some key members of her family wanting to stand up to her and get her to get help too. Some just throw up their hands and say "that's just how she is" and "there's nothing we can do to tell her differently".....but a few are finally fighting with me to convince her to get help. They know that I'm the best thing for her and this is her chance at happiness in life.

I know the only way our M stands a chance is to be rid of the OM. Given her M.O., I don't think that will happen on it's own or by just letting the A run it's course. It would eventually but it might take years of her holding on to OM again. I'm starting to think that the typical "affair dies a natural death in 6 mths." isn't going to happen in this case.

I think the only way our M stands a chance is to get WW to seek help. IF she will start to address her father and addiction issues, then we have hope. Only IF she is willing to do that will she be willing to Look Back to our M. I think they go hand in hand...there's two distinct patterns that need to change here and I think if one changes (her issues), the other might as well (willingness to go back and work on M). She is so defiant about US never having a future b/c that's what she does. She's never looked back and tried to go back and work on problems....she just runs to the next set of them. Everyone has always let her get away with it too. No man has ever stood up to fight for her before....but she's never known one like me.

I know this is a VERY hard road and the chances are slim. But the fact that somebody is finally fighting for her (some of her family and more importantly me) is what gives me hope that she can get the help she needs and end this destructive cycle once and for all. She'll never have a happy productive life until she does.

I love her and I want to be the person who helps her correct this. There is not a doubt in my mind how great we can be....we've seen it before and with the tools and knowledge we have now, the sky's the limit.

Actually JJ, WW is incredible with children...probably the thing that impresses me the most about her. I just can't put into words how much I love watching her with kids. Everyone realizes the same thing. But when she's in THIS state, she's different and she doesn't think about how she's hurting OM's little girl....she's not herself right now.

I've intercepted text messages from OM telling WW that's what he loves about her too. It makes me think that OM is so in love with her b/c he's simply looking for a good mother for his child to replace OMW. I think that is what drives his lust for her. At the same time, I think WW is looking for a new "daddy". The fact that she sees how much OM loves his daughter only confirms in her mind that he is a good "daddy".....to his daughter and subconciously to my WW. That's just a theory, but it makes sense to me.

Anyway, JJ, I KNOW I want to be with my W and it's b/c I've seen our potential. We truly are GREAT together. I feel like this is all a result of problems my W has that are re-surfacing again. If I knew for sure that she just flat out loved this other guy and they WERE soul mates and she just doesn't love me at all.......well, then it would be a different story. My WW tells me that now, but I'm 95% sure it's fog speak and past problems that are driving it all.

I can't think of a single woman in my life...girlfriends, freinds, co-workers....anyone...that I can see myself spending my life with. There's only 1 and that's my W.

Someday that love might begin to fade, and I guess that's when I know I'm done....but right now I want to love her and protect her and help her right our ship so we can fix these evil problems that torment her and we can live the life together that we are meant to. NOBODY will EVER love her more than I do. That is the one thing I can assure her of and I guess that's what I hope she comes to realize.

So, what do you think JJ.......am I in denial and just screwed up here.....in my own fog? Or is these feelings reason enough to persevere?

Thanks for the input and great thoughts.
ILA

Considering everything I just mentioned in my last post....I'm assuming there's no way for ME to suggest any counseling for WW is there?

From what I've learned, that will simply be a HUGE LB right? (disrespectful judgements). I think that is the only way our M has a chance is to get her into IC for her problems.....but it can't come from me can it?

I hope pressure from family can make it happen....seems like my only chance right now, honestly. This is an addiction though, and I know she can only get help when SHE wants to. I feel like we need to stage an intervention!!

When she comes to you and asks what she can do to to regain entry into your life, you can suggest couseling, and she may even be open to it because she has no choice, and the leverage she needs is there (the possibility of loosing you).

Before that point, it seems highly unlikely that she thinks she needs counseling. Seems like in her world, what she needs when things go stale or the waters get rough, is a new man.

I actually counseled with Steve Harley about my ex, and he told me that some people are unable to look within, so anytime they are put in a situation that becomes uncomfortable for them, a sitch that would require uncomfortableness leading to inner change, they leave the relationship.

It wouldn't surprise me that if the OM started to not meet all her needs, that she would want to hook up with you again, on the side.

If this happens, DON"T DO IT. Refuse to play that game, show her what a principled man that values marriage looks like, and maybe, just maybe she will want to become someone worthy of your respect.

Do you understand what I am saying? This is what I mean by playing to her feelings not her logic at this time.

She'll in all likelihood be back when she needs a shoulder because the OM is having problems with the sitch, with what he has done to his wife and child.

Or she may never be back at all.

Graycloud posted something quite profound the other day, and I am going to go find it for you and post here.

Graycloud did not regain his marriage, mind you, but he did regain himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This was posted on Jamesus's thread.

In regards to your WW -

One thing that I have learned, ILA, with people who look for love outside of themselves, is that given the circumstances needed for them to do what is right, to do what is esteemable, to do what feels uncomfortable...gives them this inner love necessary to have as well as be in a lifetime marriage.

And while in Plan A, as you are becomming a very attractive alternative to the chaos of an affair, you become a person that demands this of another person by being this kind of person yourself.

This is what I learned after a few failed R's and my own habit of viewing the grass as greener on the other side. It did take someone (including my own sister) to tell me that how I was acting in regards to my R's was disgusting, immature behavior.

Plan A is kind of like this sentiment or wording in action. YOU be the person you would like the WS to be. YOU lead by example...and in "be the lighthouse" kind of way.

I can trust you on this. I know that is likely what it will take.....either way. I sense that I will eventually be able to emotionally separate from her. Every day I seem to come closer to realizing this. I don't know that it will happen for a while though....one of my vices is how tightly I hold on to things. I just can't let things go....so in that way, you're absolutely right in that "letting go" is a huge step for my personal recovery as well.


Maybe WW's Aunt (whom she's living with now and has in the past during tough times) is on to something. Aunt is pushing spiritual counseling through Aunt's church and she's told me that she thinks that this will eventually have a profound effect on WW. It sure goes along the same lines as what you're quoting here.


I am fortuante here....while ALL family and friends aren't telling WW this.....a few key one's are. The 2 people in WW's life that had the most parental influence on W (not her real parents by the way), her Aunt and "other mother" she lived with during H.S. when her real parents moved away for awhile (long story!)......they are both making it VERY clear that she's doing the wrong thing and following her old patterns again. If I have any hope of getting her into counseling and ultimately saving our M....I think it will be b/c of these 2 magnificent ladies.


Truly words to live by right here. I will definitely keep this as my mantra!

You're awesome, JJ. (and everyone else too, of course!!) Thank you, thank you.
ILA

IYHO, do you think that family members pushing her towards counseling will have a negative effect? I understand why I can't suggest it.....but what about other people?


The intriguing thing about WW is she knows much of this. She's been through counseling in the past when she was younger...much of it had to do with her alcoholic step father...but she does realize and admits to having some "issues" still. The 1 trip I got her to our MC right before d-day....our MC really broke thru to her in regard to WW's father. WW admitted that she was very impressed by MC and might want to see her on IC. I still hope she will do this at urging of Aunt.

The fact that WW knows she has issues and repeating patterns in her relationships....but doesn't want to get help....that's what proves to me that this is an addictive behavior as well. I knew for a long time that I was addicted to gambling....but that still wasn't enough for me to go get help. Only at the thought of my W not marrying me did I chose to get help........look where that got me !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


That actually came up last Sunday when I mentioned us trying to spend a little more time together and being able to communicate more. She told me "I can't be friends with somebody who won't give up on our relationship. I can't hang out with somebody who still wants to have sex with me"....I pretty much responded out of desparation "believe me, I love you but I couldn't have sex with you right now if I wanted to....not after what I've experienced". She baited me into that one.....but at least she heard that I wasn't hopelessly pining over her (even though I sort of am!). Who knows how that response registered in her cloudy brain! Anyway, I always wondered how I'd react if that day came (though it seems miles away). I really don't think I can say just how I'd react until I was in that situation.

Oh, man. This is so frustrating! WW had called yesterday and left VM that she needed to take out some money from our account to pay cell phone bill and have some spending money. I didn't get back to her yesterday but saw she took out money anyway.....at least she called which is what I'd asked her to do.

She just left another VM a while ago and I called her back. We chatted about a little stuff, I was trying to keep it positive and light convo. Then she mentioned she was going to have to get a new car soon as her's is about dead. Then she mentioned our house which is our one huge problem if it comes to D. We started in about the house and she's pretty much telling me we don't have any option but to sell it for a loss (short sell it to the bank, which is essentially foreclosure, and ruins our credit). That got me fired up. I was trying to stay calm but eventually said that "I wasn't going to have the bad decisions she made screw up the next 10 years of my life". Well, of course that got us to fighting about R stuff for a bit. I tried to back out of the conversation and tell her I didn't want to discuss it right now, but that just brought out threats from her about speeding up the D filing instead of waiting 2 months like she'd agreed.

I finally told her I had to go.

Then about 10 minutes later she called me back to say she didn't want to fight about things. I concurred and ended the conversation. She's got my emotions on a string, and I'm trying to end that but it's real hard.

Definitely not a good plan A move, but when talk comes to finances and our house....we HAVE to talk about this stuff soon. I don't know how to plan A but still be able to discuss this volatile stuff.

I'm just down right now, I guess that's why I'm posting. After last weekend I was really down thinking there was no hope...until I talked to one of her family members Sunday night who gave me renewed hope......but today is down again.....the rollercoaster.

WW couldn't be more convinced that everything is OK in her world. She acts very normal around anyone but me and the few people who defy her. She claims she's so at peace with what she's doing and knows it's the choice she wants.....it makes me wonder if that's not true.

I told her today that I was angry b/c she walked out on me....and I was having to go through all of this b/c of her decisions. She agreed it was her choice to leave but said it was my fault that we got to that point. Is she right? Is this all about OUR problems in our R? I can't believe it's not influenced completely by OM.....but I go back and forth. One day I believe one thing, the next day the other. That's the part of this that's the biggest rollercoaster for me.....what is the REAL cause of all this?

I have to believe that she's deep into the fog....but she acts so normal and happy around others that it makes me wonder if she really has just moved on with her life and that's that? She sounds so sure of herself that it really makes me doubt our chances.

That's all.......just venting. Thanks

I thought I might take the time to add some info. about my personal efforts in plan A. This is something I haven't discussed too much but is an important contributing factor to my story. After last night I realized that knowing this info. would probably aid in everyone being able to give me sound advice so I should probably discuss it a bit! (sorry if this gets too long)

I've mentioned very briefly a few times that I used to have a severe gambling addiction (sports). When W and I met 5-1/2 yrs. ago it was still real bad and stayed that way for several years....but we were just dating then and it was my money, not our money. But, I know it troubled her still. That's the only thing we have ever actually gotten into a fight about. W told me on several occassions that she could not deal with a husband w/ an addiction....she had to grow up with an alcoholic and drug addict for a step-father (this is the root of a LOT of our current issues I still believe). We only had 3 real FIGHTS in 5-1/2 years....something where she got so mad enough that she left for a night and went to stay w/ her sister....they were all 3 about gambling....2 early on in R and 1 right before W.

Anyway, when we got engaged about 2 years ago I made the decision to try and stop my gambling....but on my own. I'd never had ANY counseling before and was stubborn and simply didn't believe I needed help from a "whacko counselor". Plus I thought it would be more rewarding personally if I showed myself I could stop on my own.

So I tried that and I pretty much did great until about 2 months before our wedding. I placed one bet (secretively of course) thinking it was one and done and W would never know the difference....typical addict! Anyway, the 1 bet led to others and in 1 week I won $8000. I couldn't hide that much money so I came clean with W. We fought, she left for a day, talked to her sister, and then came home. Everything seemed to blow over just like it always had before. It seemed like it was accepted more by W because the money helped pay for our W !! She actually seemed less upset than she had in the past....but it still got through to me, nonetheless.

That was the last time I placed a sports bet. It was so close to my M that it finally struck me that this was real....I'd better stop or I'd lose the one thing in my life that really mattered. I made up my mind right then that that was it for the gambling. But, although I really made the personal committment, I never got professional help....and thus I didn't SHOW W my committment. However, the discussion hadn't come up since that time, from the last bet before we got married all the way to our break up speach seemingly out of the blue.....so I've been going along thinking everything was fine.

While my gambling seemed well under control, I did recently lose myself in fantasy sports and spent way too much time doing it. I knew W was frustrated by it....but she did it right along with me, joining the same leagues with me. We played for a little money within our friends' league, but I never saw it as gambling (although I realize now it is the same). To me it was the same rush. I still got obsessed by it, still let it control my life too much, still let it impact OUR lives...nothing like it used to, but it was still a sign to my W that something still wasn't right. That was one of the main reasons that WW said she decided she was through....and all the other reasons (laziness, unhappiness, getting out of shape, etc.) were directly related to it. Unfortunately, it seems to me that she was already so involved emotionally with OM that she was going along with my habits almost in an effort to sabotage our R and prove I wasn't worthy.

So, although I'd been successful in controlling my sports betting urges, I was trasnferring my addiction elsewhere. But, I never understood it was a problem b/c W didn't communicate it to me and I just thought we were so in love that everything would be fine.

When WW blames our break up on our problems of the past that have continued for a long time.....this is really the only thing I can point to. What sucks is, I just didn't know it was affecting us that much....W never mentioned it to me, just bottled up her feelings. That's my biggest gripe is that we never talked about it and I never got the chance to do something about it when I really UNDERSTOOD the issue the way I do now.

As soon as I got the breakup speach and this all started 8 weeks ago, it was a definite wake up call....then I finally UNDERSTOOD. I immediately started going to GA meetings. I went to 2 but didn't find a real good connection with the people there. I even told my WW that and explained I wanted to tell her the truth even though it might hurt my chances of us reconciling over this gambling issue.....I said I wasn't sure I needed the 12 steps. I just didn't really see myself in the same boat as these people....these people that have to go to a meeting every night just to get through their daily life. I just thought I had a much better handle on myself than that and I told her as much (which probably made her think I was still in denial).

Then, the d-day came along and I stopped going to meetings for several weeks while I've been trying to deal with all this.

But last night I went back for my 3rd meeting...and tried a different night. Instead of 7 people there were 30 and there were some younger people and sports bettors, like me. It was a much better group and dynamic and it inspired me.

I can honestly say the reason I went back to last night's meeting is b/c of what I've learned on here. I have NO urge to gamble any more....I really feel confident about having learned to control that habit. But I also know that once an addict, always an addict and it sure can't hurt to take precautions!

The real reason I decided to do this again is b/c of plan A. I want to take stock of my life, take a personal inventory and learn about ME. I'm not going back so much to kick a gambling habit (although that's part of it), but I'm going back to learn about ME. Find some spiritualism, understand why I do things the way I do, understand why I hold on so tightly to my WW (probably part of my obsessive/addictive behavior). It was real good last night and I'm excited about this.

My WW's comments to her mother keep echoing in my head....."why are men only willing to change after it's too late". Although I had decided to stop the gambling before our M and although we hadn't talked about it since then.....the damage was apparently done. And, as soon as I started to show some of the same traits recently....I guess that was the deal breaker. It's sad that something I thought I'd licked in order to make my life and my M better, still ends up being part of the downfall....simply b/c we didn't know how to properly communicate about it.

When my WW says it was all our problems that lead to this....this is what she MUST be talking about. In that regard, I can understand and accept what she's saying. Unfortunately, she claims that is THE problem and OM has NOTHING to do with any of this. But for her to turn her back the way she did without even trying to work together......I know that has to be because of the OM and A. It's pretty clear to me it's not just one or the other, but a combination of these issues.

Part of me hopes that REALLY committing to GA and attacking any remaining addiction issues in my life will be the one thing that shows my WW who I am and what I'm willing to do for myself and for US. Although it's a problem that contributed to our demise.....I can also see it as a BIG PLAN A OPPORTUNITY. But, WW's so far gone right now that it might not matter to her. However, IF the A ever ends, this is what she will HAVE to see out of me should we have any chance...I know that. I will also HAVE to see the same committment out of her at that point to beat her personal demons....but that's another story. I guess the only silver lining is that OM bets a lot on sports too and spends way too much time with his coaching and stuff....surely things that WW will get fed up with eventually....or so I hope!

But anyway, I've decided that this is the type of thing I need to do for ME, for a proper plan A, and for a healthy life and future....no matter how WW views it.

I have everyone here at MB to thank for getting me to understand this. So, for that I want to say a big THANK YOU. I feel like I'm finally starting to be able to take SOME steps towards personal recovery and doing plan A the right way. I just hope and pray it's not too late to save my M and the W I love so dearly.

ILA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yikes. Talk about a bad omen....I lost my wedding ring last night! I've lost so much weight it slides off my finger too easily now! I think it has to be somewhere around the house though, so maybe if I lose it and re-find it....that will be a good omen!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually, as far as omens and portents go, finding it will just negate the bad juju losing it incurred, so it will just be a great big cosmic wash.

Against my better judgment, I'm going to make one more attempt at some "tough love" ...

ILA, Have you noticed that recently you're basically having an online conversation with yourself???

No one is really responding to your thread. Why do you think that may be???

Ah, the question that has stumped folks for years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I know that some will give the simple answer "it's just fog-talk". And in some cases, it probably is.

But I suspect that in most cases, it is not as simple as a couple being in a perfect, wonderful, Disney marriage, and one day one spouse decides to have a roll in the hay with an OP. Rarely happens this way.

In most cases, one spouse is at least to some extent unhappy, which is what makes him/her somewhat more susceptible to an affair. And once the affair starts, fog rolls in, history gets rewritten, and it's no longer clear what is truth and what is fog speak. But, regardless, there is usually some basis for the WS's words that they "were not happy".

For that reason, I think it is futile to try to figure out "the cause" (neglected ENs or affair), and to work on the future rather than on the past. Hopefully by meeting ENs and with the affair ending, the marriage can be rebuilt. But in many cases, the affair is really just a symptom of the WS's deep resentments, which the WS never forgets. It is in those cases where we often see a WS go from OP to the next, or still deciding to divorce even if the affair ends, etc.

I wouldn't over burden my head with such questions, as there is never the "true" answer. Just focus on fixing things, and saving the marriage.

AGG

Probably b/c there's not much to talk about! I guess I feel like I'm in sort of a holding pattern right now. I'm trying to work on plan A from a distance and I don't really have much contact with WW. She has made it clear that she doesn't want to be around me or talk to me as long as I've got any thoughts of us saving our marriage.

I keep posting more as a log/journal for myself....plus it just seems to help to put your thoughts on paper sometimes(or computer in this case).

I can't say I'm expecting much feedback MyRev, I don't really have much to ask about except stupid thoughts about how I think SHE's feeling.....which in the end I know doesn't really matter. I'm trying to work my plan to better myself right now.....I'm trying to be patient. I know I continue to talk about inconsequential things on here and reactionary things to what WW is doing....but it's just to keep me involved and keep thinking. Although I know I can't focus on what SHE's saying or doing, I still find it extremely intriguing and I just like getting everyone's input so I can learn about all this stuff. I guess I feel like the more I can try to understand about what she's doing and why.....the better chance at recovery I may have someday, should we be so lucky.

What do you suggest I should be doing differently my friend? Exposure is done and it's 100% clear that I'm not going to break up this A simply through exposure. I continue to work with key family to try to get them to push WW towards counseling,etc. or to get her to wake up somehow. Anything that I push her on is only driving her away. Meanwhile, I'm trying to avoid the LB's and R talk as much as I can (which I admit is hard sometimes) so I can do a good plan A before plan B.

What are your thoughts? I'm curious to know.
Thanks
ILA

Well, my thoughts are that you are no longer getting much advice, because no one is interested in taking their time to get involved in your situation and post to you, only to have their advice disregarded, while you wallow in self-pity and basically do NOTHING other than wring your hands.

Seriously, what have you actually done that was meaningful since you came here? You half-a$$ed exposure, because you were unsure of yourself and the plan that was laid out for you, and only weakened your position. You continue to accept crumbs from your WW and hang on her every word for some delusional sign of something positive. You continue to exhibit your weakness to WW with the clingy contact, and you continue to be a HUGE doormat for her to disrespect and humiliate ... as she is now flaunting her A out in the open.

It appears to me that your WW has lost all respect for you because of your weakness towards her. She will never respect you until you stand up to her.

At this point, you're at the point where you truly have the freedom of nothing left to lose. Your WW is gone to be with OM ... you are facing the possible loss of your home that you're now $100K upside down on, which will no doubt lead to a future bankruptcy filing for likely both of you ... you have no children to worry about ... get the picture???

Exactly what does it take to prod you into action or are you just going to hump up and take all of the above without even putting up a fight for yourself, if not for your M?

When you finally get to the point where you are willing to make an effort and take a chance then my guess is you will have lots of support in forming a plan that you would actually follow and implement, but only YOU can decide when that point is reached.

After having read the entire thread clear through just now, I have some thoughts as well, and they are not pretty, but because by your own admission she has cheated on all her boyfriends, cheated on her first BH (the controlling POS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), and you less than six months after marrying you AND

because she is willing to play house with that liitle five yo's daddy while her family and mother is destroyed...without even a blink of an eye, without any respect whatsoever for the little girl and her mother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />0 and her being a teacher and knowing the damage that is done to kids by this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />...

Hire the best atty you can get your hands on, secure your finances, cancel ALL joint accounts and have your payroll deposited into an account she can't draw from.

And then in your best Plan A behavior defer all her accusations and attempts to get you to do verbal battle to your atty. ie I am following the advice of my atty.

AND take off your rose colored glasses. This is a man eating piranha you are dealing with. After she got you to marry her the challenge was over for her.

There is nothing else from your posts that would suggest anything different about her. I am sorry.

What MyRev's says is right. You have to stand up and fight for yourself. She'll eat you alive if you don't.

Your gambling problem caused this my [censored].


Keep posing ILA and above all else, hang tough, we are right her with you.

Shall I join the war trumpets?

Yes, I shall.

Get your [censored] out of that mess. You weren't married long enough to have to deal with this torment, you don't have kids, and really it appears that you don't have much of a chance at fixing this.


Get yourself into Plan B, consult a lawyer and do what you can to protect yourself and remove yourself from her abuse. There is a slim chance that this MIGHT turn her around, its doubtful, but YOU are going to be fine, it seems likely that she NEVER will be fine, at least not without years and years of help, help that she right now won't even admit that she needs.

Get into Plan B, start prepping Plan D and begin getting yourself through this terrible mess you've found yourself in.

I don't know what to say you guys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My Rev, everytime I've stood up to her things have just gotten worse. I can't end this A, only she can....I have pretty much given into that fact. I think in my case I'm dealing much more with an addiction than an A. It's hard for me to see where standing up and challenging her is going to stop her addiction. I think the only chance is a proper plan A and plan B and then see if she is willing to get help.

Tyk, I am trying to get a lawyer lined up this week, just to start separating finances, get ideas on the house, and figure out income tax return, etc. But, I still want to make her do the leg work on a D. I don't plan to let her off the hook that easy. She's used to doing this stuff and people letting her just walk away and take the easy way out. She wants ME to file b/c then she doesn't feel bad...it's like a morality car wash for her. I won't give her that satisfaction if it comes down to it....I'd just be fueling her addiction.

JJ, sorry to hear your take as you've been pretty supportive of my efforts up to this point. You're right that she is completely shi!!ing on me and is a very selfish, evil person right now. That's why I feel I'm up against a pretty tough scenario here. But, the thing is, I know without a doubt that this is not my W. The woman I've shared my life with for the past 5 1/2 years IS a wonderful person, a caring person, a beautiful, intelligent person. That's not me being delusional or clingy.....that is the God's honest truth. Never have I had someone sacrifice so much for me and care so much for me. That's why we were so great, because we always put each other ahead of ourselves. I'm telling you....she is just flat out SICK and needs help. She's fallen into a dark abyss and is being drug down by all her past terrors and all her current addictions. It's so deep in her subconcious that she can't realize what's going on....she thinks things are just peachy. But I know without a doubt that this is NOT my W I'm dealing with. She is NOT this person. Has she been before....heck ya. She definitely has a pattern. But I want to get her to break that pattern. I know she's never loved anyone more than me...she's told me that (even during all this). She's just convinced she loves OM more right now and she'll never be able to regain her love for me....obvious fog talk. If I don't help her beat this, it's likely nobody ever will. What if your WS had cancer....would you give up on them?

That's the way I feel. There will come a time, probably within 2 months if not sooner, when I will have to go dark in plan B. There will likely come a time when I have to walk away altogether. We may have to get fully D before she ever realizes....and then it might be too late. I may not be up for that challenge for an extended period of time....I can't say right now.

But WW is lost in an addictive state further troubled by a lot of past demons. I'm not going to snap her out of anything on my own. It will take time and it will take family pressure. She's going to have to look deep within to wake up. If she agrees to seek some help at some point, then I can step up my pressure. If I stand up to her now though, she's gone for good. I understand maybe that's the best scenario in the end for me......but I'm not ready to thrown in the towel on somebody I love this much....at least not yet.

I hope you guys can understand this. I'm wondering if I should be somewhere else that deals with addictions more than affairs? I think I need to call the Harley's too. I just wish I could get WW to see our MC on an IC basis, b/c I have a feeling she'd get WW straightened out. Only time will tell.

Thanks for the input. I value everyone's opinion. As seen by TMTS's case, there can be tons of differing opinions and yet sometimes you still have to listen to your heart and your soul to find the right path. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ILA:

You CANNOT straighten your W out. You CANNOT pressure her in2 seeing an MC.

The Harleys MIGHT be able 2 get her 2 talk 2 them at some point, but they CANNOT make her if she doesn't want 2.

You can ONLY heal yourself.

You are far from the first person 2 come here with a short term marriage and no kids who's been advised that the simplest path would probably be 2 cut your losses and move on.

I was already married 27 years when I found out about my W's affair, and we have 2 adult kids. But even now, if there were another affair, I would end my marriage in a New York Minute, wish my xW well in all her endeavors, give her half our stuff, and start over with what's left of my august years.

Here's something you can do that's really still plan A behavior, even if you don't think it is: When my W called me at work, or from where she was staying while working away from home, if I didn't want 2 talk 2 her I would simply not answer the phone. A number of times, I would hang up on her, politely as possible.

Like a friend of Jack Benny's did 2 him once. He said, "Hey Jack, could you do me a favor while you're in Hollywood?" Jack: "Sure, just name it." Friend hangs up the phone.

Or: "W, someone's at the door! I'll be right back" and leave the phone off the hook until you hear the dial tone.

Or: Crumple a piece of paper near the mike, say: "Gee we've got a bad connection!" and pull the chord out of the wall in mid-sentence.


Who's name is the house under. Consider putting it on the market and moving 15 states away, change your name and bleach your hair, and don't leave any contact info.

-ol' 2long

I realize this now....but I want to give it some time to see if her family CAN. The 2 parental figures she listens to the most are both trying to get through to her....so why not see if they can work some magic and in the meantime I try to make myself look better in her eyes?


Not that simple....house is under both names and if we sell we lose about $100k right now b/c we only bought it about a year and a half ago before the market dropped more. This is the biggest sticking point to us separating right now.

ILA,

I'm still supportive of you and your efforts, but you are not looking at this objectively.

Look at the reality of the situation and base your plan on THAT reality, not on your honey coated version of what is going down and not on a vision you have of what could be IF only she would let you help her fix herself. That's not reality ILA, and a plan of action must be based on reality.

Yes, but please get a lawyer.

A woman wants to be with a man she respects, and you must first practice self-respect above all else.

A roommate will help pay the mortgage until she is forced to buy you out and hopefully your lawyer can buy enough time that if you are forced to sell, your interests are protected first, and the market may change around for the better by then.

Have you read Pep's "Carrot and stick of Plan A"...

It is absolutely not about appeasement or trying to fix the troubled wayward.

Also, this website does consider affairs addictions, but you are dealing with character issues. Your WW has character issues whether you want to face that or not. Her past behavior cannot be overlooked. It is what it is.

Yes, call Steve Harley as soon as you can. That's what you should do, absolutely.

ILA,

I'm sorry, but you are delusional and probably hopeless. You appear to be set on self-destruction, both emotionally and financially.

FWIW, TMTS didn't get results by "following his heart", he simply reached his limit and took action, which was the opposite of the advice from many of the "wait and see" crowd here, and finally got results.

Until you reach your "limit", if you even have one, and take some definitive action, you will not see any improvements in your situation.

I see your WW calling the shots on how this thing plays out. She calls you up and yells at you and then calls you up to smooth things over. I say do your Valentine's Day thing (very simple, no R talk, just the rose and the photo) and then go to Plan B, because I don't see her giving you many more opportunities to Plan A. Her guard is up.

You NEED a lawyer. You're going to end up losing your home, divorced and alone if you don't take some action to protect yourself legally and financially. I'm thinking that your WW may actually start to respect you if she sees that you're not playing her game anymore.

Call the Harleys.

I'm trying to get a lawyer by the weekend.....but how does that change things....I'm still going to end up without our house, divorced and alone right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> The quicker I push things, the quicker the house will have to go. I'm not too concerned about any other legal or financial stuff b/c everything besides the house works out pretty easily and only 6 mth. M w/ no kids....that makes it easy too. CA is community property so we will split things (which isn't much during the short 6 mth. M).

I want the lawyer more for my rights w/ our house, protecting my credit, seeing how the tax returns work out (we have our tax appt. next week), etc. That's all.

I do agree that I should start putting some pressure on her as far as splitting up bills/income/etc. That will give her very little money left over....and she needs to buy a new car b/c her's is about dead! But, the sooner I do that, the sooner she insists we dump the house too. That's why I need the lawyer.

Question about Harley's:

Is there anything I need to have prepared before calling them? I thought somebody said you should fill out some of the EN's questionaire's or something.

Anyone who's had coaching from them....what should I do before I call and start spending the $$ ?

Thanks

I think you answered your own question. But I'd like to add, you taking these steps may just cause her to pause and really think about what she's doing and to see you in a different light.

When you set up the first appt they will email you a confirmation and there will be a couple of forms to fill out giving them some basic information. One is a love bank survey. The other asks a lot of history questions, although I don't remember what all is on it.

Thanks.....do you know if I need to fill out the EN questionairre too? I've been meaning to get to this anyway for myself. For a while I hoped I could convince WW to do the same but I don't see that happening now! I could do one for WW as if I was her....I know that's what Pepperband suggested in an old post.

PM: I could see the possibility of that. She likes to threaten me w/ the D and the house issue when she starts to get rattled. But, I think she knows she's a little vulnerable in those areas too. I do understand what MyRev talks about in regard to her respecting me and that I need to take more action....I guess this is one area where I can take the bull by the horns.

I guess I've been trying to "buy time" up until now....figuring that the more time I keep her from filing for D, the more chance the A will die. (plan A stuff). But, I'm not seeing much sign of that so I guess I should start putting some financial pressure on her I guess.

On the other hand, I see WW as "stringing me along" b/c she doesn't want to file....she wants me to get mad enought that I do it for her....that way she doesn't feel so bad about her actions. That's the way WW sister sees things, too.

I don't want to make it easy on her to get a quick D, but don't want to let her continue to live her life without taking any responsibility for this either.

Get a good laywer and see if he can get your WW on the hook for more than 50%. If there was an EA before you got married, you may have grounds for an annulment. I don't know how that would legally affect things, but get her on the hook for the money, and then she will start to squirm.

From what I can tell, an annullment will be nearly impossible to get....and in our sit. I wouldn't change anything but me keeping more than 50% of our belongings. But, in D, she only gets 50% of what we obtained in the 6 mths. we were married anyway. So, I've thought about this option but it doesn't seem like the way to go (I'll discuss w/ lawyer though).

WW wants this to be easy. She doesn't want to get a lawyer and doesn't want to spend money on it (I must admit neither do I). She wants US to work everything out and agree so it can be done easily and without much pain or suffering. I do think she will be very fair about things (what is mine and what is hers) b/c deep down she really does not want to hurt me....I know she understands how much she already has. She just want out quickly, easily, and without much money or conflict.

I don't want to make it easy on her...especially if I hold out any hope of our M. But, I'll have my limits too on how much I can spend and how much I can fight her on things. I've got a lot to find out from lawyer and a lot to think about.

It's good that she is not going to have hardly any money left over and has to waste money on an atty.

You are not going to bankroll her affair, or the destruction of your life & finances.

Yeah JJ, I've run the numbers. IF I insist that she provide her share of mortgage, put aside MONTHLY $$ for taxes on the house, provide SOME money to help upkeep of the house, take care of pets, etc (I'm living there alone right now), stuff like that.....then after she pays HER bills I figure she's only going to have $300/month to live on. That's for food, entertainment, etc. Plus her car's about dead.

She would fight me on paying ANY money for utilities at our house, upkeep, pets, stuff like that...."because she's not living there". She would also fight me on putting aside money to pay house taxes. She's banking on our income tax return to take care of a lot of stuff....these are all reasons why I MUST consult a lawyer before next week....just so I see what I can make her provide financially in regard to the house/taxes/etc. I could probably make a case for even more than I've considered to this point.

THe only drawback in my mind is this: the quicker I put her in financial hardship, the quicker she will probably want to file for D and/or force me to make a decision on our house. (I can't keep the house on my own, neither can she.....we could maybe try to rent out the whole thing and keep ownership, but she doesn't want to pay mortgage on a house she's not living in...she told me that. She's ready to sell for a loss which means essentially foreclosure...and it ruins our credit....that's the big sticking point for me right now. I don't want to rush into a decision on this damn house!)

I'm a little ignorant about things like this since I've only owned one home before (and lost it to foreclosure during FWH's affairs) but is there anyway you could refinance and buy her out of her share of ownership for say $10.00 (since she's willing to lose anyway) and then rent the house out as you suggested? Maybe if things work out between you two on down the road, she'd be grateful you managed to save your home.

yeah, that's something I've thought about. I really hate to lose the house. She would simply just sign it over to me (and would be quick to do so) b/c we don't own any equity in it yet.

Right now if I keep it on my own I'm taking on a $100k debt w/ the state of the market.

Even if I could rent it all out, I'd still be about $1500/month short that I'd have to come up with. I couldn't do that AND have my own apartment, etc.

Just don't have a lot of options to keep it unfortunately! But don't want to have credit ruined either.

How did you recover from your foreclosure?

LOL... we haven't! Fortunately with the state of the economy right now and the fact that we're not the only ones... landlords and surprisingly other creditors tend to overlook the foreclosure (we just bought a car with no problem). We haven't attempted to buy another home, I don't know that we will since we both really want to travel alot when we retire. We're thinking RV... and then to the nursing home (or one of our four children's homes) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Well, sorry to hear the state it put you in...but you seem to be coping pretty well. I have heard of alot of options that the government is pushing for....just to help out all the people affected by the economy and bad mortgages.

I'm sure I can do something to protect my credit and get through it pretty cleanly, especially in this volatile economy, like you say.

I don't want WW to think it will be that clean and easy though....if I can get her to sweat it out and keep paying on the mortgage with me, that's the best thing. Plus, it makes it that much easier for her to come back to me down the road if that should ever happen....we'd still have everything tangible that we've been working for over the last 5 years together. The stability part would still be there!

Ok, got consultation this PM with a lawyer and another one on Monday with a different lawyer. Trying to figure out the tax return and debt situation before WW insists on sitting down and discussing any of it.

Some thoughts sort of came to me last night about this whole timeline.

I really think that this EA has been going on for a long time...maybe even a year or longer. I think WW has had feelings for OM for 1-2 years and visa versa. WW told me that the day I exposed her EA (although she was still lying about PA that day).

I remember something my mother told me recently about a comment my W made at her bridal shower. Something about "He's got 6 months to straighten up". Mom didn't think much of it at the time, but still sounded odd to her. That was less than 6 mths. before our wedding so she didn't mean I needed to "straighten up" before the wedding.

The day I discovered the PA and asked "how long have you been f*#king OM"...she without hesitation said "about 2 weeks". That D-Day was 1/8/08....2 weeks earlier was X-Mas....I'm pretty sure they'd slept together right before X-Mas based on her body language and what she's said. Logically I'd say it was probably the weekend before X-Mas. That Sat. was 12/22..........our wedding was 6/22......you do the math.

If she really decided to start her PA on our 6 mo. anniversary....that really kills me. I don't know for sure, but it sure adds up.

It's starting to sound to me like WW knew for a year or two that she wanted to hook up with OM. She was engaged/married while he was married too, so I think they kept putting off. It was like their "forbidden love".....but it was obviously in both of their minds for a long time.

WW tells me she was trying to give our M a chance and trying not to quit....but finally gave up b/c "I stopped trying". It sort of makes sense that she WAS giving it at least a half-assed effort....that she didn't WANT to end it and run off.....but if she had these feelings for 1-2 years then she was NEVER giving it a real chance. There's no way it was going to make it as long as she was in an EA....sooner or later I was going to do something to make her give up (nobody can be perfect). I think she was sabotaging our R/M all along. Maybe not intentionally, but it didn't have a chance.

What kills me is that WW went through with expensive M, making friends/family spend money, buy gifts, travel...we bought a house...even "weren't actively preventing" getting pregnant in the last couple months. To go through all of that when you knew you had feelings for somebody else and you might end things in 6 months......wow, I will just never understand that thinking!!

And she has the nerve to say her and OM is in NO WAY related to OUR issues.......yeah, sure thing!

Well, maybe I'm just telling you to make lemonade out of lemons, but consider yourself VERY lucky that she did not get pregnant and bring a child into this nightmare. It makes the pain and complication an order of magnitude worse...Not that I am trying to diminish your pain, of course.

Still, given the short marriage, no kids, and her past history, I'd get my ducks in a row, get divorced, move on, heal, and look for someone more worthy of your time/efforts/love.

AGG

AGG, I hear what you're telling me. And yes, I fully understand that kids would make things so much worse. I must admit, I've had the thought cross my mind "what if we did get pregnant....maybe this wouldn't have happened". I thought women trapped men by getting pregnant, no the other way around!!! Well, I know that's stupid thinking anyway....this was GOING to happen sooner or later. It is a blessing that it happened this soon (although before a marriage would have been much better!!).

I AM starting to get lined up to protect myself. I see what's likely ahead of me.....it sucks, but it's the truth.

As far as moving on......we'll I can't say I'm emotionally there yet....as you all know that will take a long while. I still hold out hope through all of this for some crazy reason.

But, thanks for the thoughts.

ILA:

I live in So Cal, 2. Housing is outrageous here.

Consider going 2 a mediator 2gether.

My W said a lot of the same things about not wanting 2 go 2 a lawyer and just splitting things up 5050, at a point when I'd discovered she broke NC behind my back a few years ago.

I called her "bluff" and made an appointment for a mediator. She tried 2 talk me out of it by offering a fake olive branch of some kind, but I made us go.

The consultation cost me 350 bucks, but it was worth it for her 2 hear just how fast this could go, and how cleanly things would get split. (and how jake I was with that).

Mediation would cost us 5K, partly because of the complexity of our si2ation. Probably much less for a case like yours.

Lawyers would have cost us about 30-50K, again because of our si2ation. Yours less, accordingly, but not cheap.

I think the whole experience was rather sobering for my W, and initiated real recovery - though it 2k a while since her A was for so long.

In your case, the simplest outcome would still likely be getting the M over, getting the house sold - at a loss 2 both of you if necessary - and moving forward with this hard lesson under your belt.

M recovery might ac2ally be a lot harder for you. But you will find support here if that's what you want.

best,
-ol' 2long

2long, glad you mentioned that.

I've looked into mediator and figured that IS the route we'd take. I'm not necessarily going to just divy things up on our own. If it comes to it, I'm going to make her go through some of this legally.

I pretty much know we can't afford full blown attorneys. I'm trying to get some consultation knowledge out of them and probably retain one for side help. Retainer is a lot, but she'll refund anything unused and has lots of pull in the O.C. courts from what I understand. Probably worth it just as a backup.

Other than initially figuring out my rights and where my negotiating power stands.....mediation will be the answer for us.

I've read that the whole process can sometimes wake up the WS too.....but I'm not going to count on it. It's a least 8 months until anything can be finaled.....I'm not going to hang on just for the sake of hanging on, but nothing has to happen immediately either....there's still some time.

Thanks for the input.

Well, I haven't seen much change the last few days (which of course I don't expect), but WW and I have talked very civilly and in pretty good spirits on a couple of brief occassions so I guess that's good.

We have tax appt. Wed. and I just got done talking to her about that. She has pretty much the same ideas about the tax return as I do...so that's positive. She even mentioned putting money aside to keep for NEXT year's taxes on our house. I took that as a positive b/c all along she's been pushing to dump the house soon. But, I don't want to put any stock in what SHE's saying right now, either so don't want to get excited about that! We also talked about getting together next weekend to go through our finances. Before she was pushing to separate everything but in the last week she's talked more like "I just want to know our situation"...b/c I pay all the bills, she doesn't have a good grasp on our finances. I think she knows she can't hack it on her own right now....even though she's living rent and utilities free at her Aunt's house. As long as she's paying on our mortgage she can't really get by on her own very well. OM is also a teacher so doesn't make a ton of money either....he's living w/ his parents right now and from what I hear is paying rent on the condo his BW is staying in....but only through March. Anyway, WW still talks about separating things, but isnt' pushing as hard or threatening like she was. Part of me wants to force the issue and make her take care of herself and be tight on money.....but the other half of me knows the harder I push that, the more inclined she will be to force the issue on our house so she can get out from under her mortgage payment. Oh, what to do :P

One thing it seems is that she's not spending every waking moment with OM recently (although hard to tell). They had a school formal that WW chapparoned (sp?) on Sat....I joked about her only going b/c this year she had a date (just sort of slipped out)....but WW didn't get upset. She responded that she didn't have a date actually....she was going by herself and hanging out with other teacher friends. Today they are both off work for a school holiday so I thought for sure they'd be spending the day together, but she's spending the day with her sisters instead and not OM. I wonder if she's teetering a little???? Well, time will tell.

Anyway, after Wed. tax appt. I'm going to see if she'll go out to dinner at one of our favorite places (right by tax office so convenient). It's also day before Valentines-Day so I figure I'll present her with something simple.... a flower and maybe a sentimental picture of us, tell her I love her, and leave it at that. Try to avoid R talk, but show her I care. Hopefully it will be a good plan A day...we'll see.

Is this too much? Any other time that I do anything or say anything that shows her I still care....it drives her into hiding. But, I sense over the last week that maybe she's a little more open to it and won't be put off by my efforts....it is V-Day afterall....just ignoring it would be essentially a LB'er wouldn't it???

Great Idea ... maybe she'll even reciprocate and give you back a couple of "items" for Valentine's Day that you could use to muster up the courage to quit being her doormat.

If it's working, don't change it.

If your showing her you still care drives her into hiding, then why are you considering that now?

If she appears to be a little more open to you, it is because you're backing off is is having some affect

So why would you change that now?

I disgree on your ambivalence regarding the money situation as well.

There is a way to Plan A and still not go along with the affair, and mostly it is by doing what you need to do to NOT help fund the affair, or appease the wayward.

Think presentation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ILA:

Regarding the house...

You know that it's just a building, right?

If you have 2 sell it because her lifestyle is making it impossible 2 keep it, don't you think that will send a strong message 2 her?

-ol' 2long

Well, I thought I'd check back in today. I've been stepping back for a few days to let my head clear a bit. I realized I was obsessing too much about getting advice from MB and was spending too much time on here instead of doing other things I needed to do (work, personal, etc.). I think I was starting to fog up my own head a bit.

Anyway, for the record, here's some updates.

I feel like I'm fully engulfed in plan A still. The past week has presented some opportunites to see WW and communicate some....and all discussions have been very civil, relaxed, and free of LB's.

Wed. we had a tax appointment so I met WW there. We filed jointly b/c it got us an extra $2k back. Filing separate would have gotten ME more money than her but we've been married for 6 mo. so half of the separate returns would have become community split anyway. I made her aware of my rights to file separate and have more of the money (although it wouldn't be a very big difference in the end). She countered that she would get a lesser return b/c her witholdings are lower and we've been using more of her paycheck monthly....which is true. Anyway, we both made our points and then decided to split money 50/50. I feel it's fair, so does she so no "fights" there.

Anyway, after tax appt. I convinced her to go to dinner at our favorite pizza place. She was a little reluctant but said yes. We kept convo. light and happy for a while over dinner, but eventually we got into R talk a bit. Neither of us forced it on the other....just sort of mutually eased into it and talked poiniently about some things.

She has now shifted focus a little more on her feelings (I got the "it's not you it's me speech....I invented that speech" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Well, that was sort of it anyway. WW said she realized that she got married for the wrong reasons, she just hadn't felt right or been truly happy for quite some time, almost felt "forced" into the wedding b/c we'd come so far already and she didn't want to just give up b/c she thought maybe things would get better after we were married, etc. The biggest one was "in the 5+ years we've been together I've never had the feeling that I couldn't live without you. I always thought that if something happened and you left tomorrow, that I'd be ok with that and be able to move on. I just haven't had the proper level of devotion". That one hurt to hear and I quickly refuted it saying I simply couldn't believe that statement. I told her that was very troubling to hear her say b/c I've seen tons of examples of just the opposite and if she really, truly feels that way then I guess I never have known the person my W is the way I thought I did. That statement actually seemed to stop her in her tracks a bit.

But, the R talk was seemingly "good" if that is possible in plan A. I managed to work in Plan-A type stuff too. We talked about our personal counseling we are both doing, how we are both learning about ourselves and what we are looking for in life. I was able to discuss the steps I was taking to better myself. I can tell she always likes to hear that stuff and she asks me about going to the gym,etc. quite often. I think in her mind it makes her feel better that she isn't "ruining my life" and I'll be ok after this. But, deep down I think it still registers as something she can return to (though she wouldn't allow herself to see it that way right now).

After dinner I asked her to come to my truck b/c I had something for her. She said "uh oh, do I really want it?". We joked and laughed and I told her I was obviously not going to get to spend v-day with her so I wanted to give her something still. When she saw flowers in my truck she stepped back and asked "why are you doing this?", "this isn't helping things"...stuff like that. I looked her in the eyes and told her that I still care about her and it's v-day and I just felt like doing something to make you happy. I said, once you truly love someone I don't know if that ever fully goes away. I hope you understand that and can simply accept this gift and appreciate it for what it is. I got her some gerber daisies (her favorite flowers), MADE a photo calendar for her with some of my favorite pictures of us on each month, and MADE her a v-day card (colored with crayons). I know for a fact this stuff gets to her. She never wants things bought for her....if you show effort and put time and thought into something...that's what counts. The night before I'd even run across some things I'd made in the past which she had filed away and kept. Things like this strike a chord in her. I actually started to get a bit emotional during this and couldn't hold back a tear or two. She finally came and gave me a hug and said "I don't want to see you hurting". She reluctantly took the gifts and we left.

I had a softball game later that night but when I got done I had a VM from her. She was almost asleep as I could tell by her voice. She said "just wanted to say thank you for the flowers and gifts...it was very sweet. I appreciate the kind gesture. It was probably misdirected and wasted on me, but I do appreciate the thought. Hopefully this helps you to feel better, I don't want to hurt you...but I just don't know an easier way to do this" So, even her message was conflicting.....but at least it made her think. She isn't heartless, she still cares, she feels a lot of guilt......but she won't allow herself to consider looking back. I can only think that this is simply due to the A.

There are contributing factors to our case, things that have caused this to happen. Some are my faults, some are hers, many are her psychological problems that push her in this direction.....but without the A I don't think we'd be here. This is something she vehemently denies. "My relationship with OM has nothing to do with us. If he didn't exist, we still wouldn't be together and we still wouldn't be working things out. I finally got to a point where I just fell out of love and checked out emotionally. Once I got up the courage to leave, there's no going back. There's no way I can ever fall in love with you again"

You hear that over and over and over (and this is what she tells all her family and frineds too) and you can't help but start to believe it. You start to ask yourself if the A is a side note. WW firmly believes this is the case. She is resolute and unwaivering in that belief so it's very convincing. But, deep down I know differently.....and that's what keeps me going. Without the A, I still think we have a real good chance. When I hear statements like what she said at dinner about "if I was gone tomorrow she'd be ok and be able to move on".....that is such B.S....I can think of specific examples in the past of her faced with the thought of losing me (never me leaving, but her LOSING me) and she's been an emotional wreck. So when I hear those statments, it proves to me that she has repressed every emotion for me and she truly is foggy and A driven.

I can even hear it in her voice. It's almost like she has to continually convince herself that we are through and her feelings are gone. She tells everyone over and over, tells me over and over. It seems like she doesn't want to think of the prospect of any of those feelings surfacing and her having to deal with them. She claims she's calm and at peace with everything, and appears to be on the outside. Even the outermost part of her soul is probably at ease. But I feel like she's driven her feelings for us so deep down and repressed them so much (which is her defense mechanism and M.O. in the past), that in the depths of her soul I know there is great turmoil and chaos.

That's what I hope we can unearth someday. Whether it's little hints, little notes, little "I love you's", plan A stuff, family pressure (although I can see it dwindling), or her own personal counseling and spiritual awakening.......whatever it may be I know she will have to someday deal with those deepest emotions and will have to re-visit US. I assume that is after the A.

In finishing up, yesterday WW came home to go through finances. It was actually some more plan A time for me. Conveniently I was working in the back yard when she showed up, shirt off with a good sweat going! She finally got to see the results of my working out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Then I made sure to make her wait while I took a shower. The last few times we've seen each other she's commented on how "good I look". Yesterday she didn't comment.....I took that as the fact that it "got her going a little bit". Anyway, we had a really good hour together. We decided to split our debts, etc. and transfer everything into our own names. We will start paying our own bills and contribute money to our joint account to handle shared expenses (mortgage,etc). That all went very well. We both feel like it was very fair and a win-win negotiation. I think she knows she won't have tons of money on her own. WW also had breakfast with her best frined who is also our realator. Friend convinced her to hold on to the house for at least 6 mo. as she feels the market will hit it's low point by then and start to recover (i can't say I agree, but hey, whatever convinces WW). So, WW is going to keep paying mortgage for at least 6 mo.....so nothing has to happen w/ house for a while....that's HUGE news. All in all, very good plan A day. Open, friendly discussion...some laughs, etc. Even some fair negotiating on our finances....some working together without LB's.

Downside of all of this is that the A is not going away ANYTIME soon. By continuing to pay mortgage WW will not be able to afford apartment. She won't keep living w/ her Aunt either....she told me she was tired of "living with parental figures". OM's grandmother died this week and he gets to move into GM's house. It's rent free and paid off. I'd asked WW about this before and she danced around the issue...saying she had told OM she wanted her own place. But, it's become apparent that she had plans all along to move in with OM. I finally told her yesterday that she should just tell me the truth. She finally said that yes, she planned on eventually moving in with him. This will likely be within the next month, although I'm sure she is now spending all her time there anyway.

Obviously this sucks, to know that your W is moving in with another man. I've tried to stop the A and I can't. They work together, they are going to live together. That's just facts. WW is done with our M right now (although we haven't yet filed for D) and is living her life with OM instead. She'd made up her mind on this 2 months ago before she ever said a word to me. I've exposed, I've pushed, I've tried everything....but her mind was made up before this even started.....and that's just what my WW does, this is her pattern. So, the only positive side I can take from this is that the faster they get on with real life, the faster it will come tumbling down. They may find true happiness and spend the rest of their lives together, who knows...maybe it's more than an A. But, if it's typical A, this is just going to speed up the process I guess.

Maybe it's better to have her just get it over with than stringing the A along in secret or on the side. Maybe this is a quicker means to an end and a faster wake up call to WW. "If you love something, let it go...if it comes back, then you know." I think this is about the only choice I have right now.

I'm considering trying to ride out plan A a little longer. I feel like I've done a pretty good job of it recently. I've repaired the bitterness, the hatred, the fighting, and the LB's that came as a result of exposure and from my sheer inability to comprehend just what the f*#k was going on. We now are friendly, communicating and open.

But, I'm thinking that as soon as she decides to move in with OM.....that might be the basis for plan B. It's also not a bad reason to send a PBL. This seems to fit in the timeline about right anyway.

So, sorry for the novel......this is more of a log for me than anything. If anyone has any comments, thoughts, or suggestions.....please fling them my way. Thanks MB'ers.

ILA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Well JJ, I sort of went against your advice a bit. You'll see in my last post that I did make her a card/gift and got some flowers for v-day.

WW was a little taken back at the time and later told her sister that it kind of "wierded her out" a bit. But, WW did leave me the nice voice mail thanking me and saying she appreciated it. I also hung out with SIL all day Monday and talked about a lot of stuff. I guess SIL told WW that I just did the v-day stuff b/c I love her, care about her, and simply felt like doing something nice for her (exact same thing I told WW). She told WW to quit being a b*tch and just accept it for the nice gesture that it was. SIL is so cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Whereas before, WW would have been really put off by something like the v-day thing....it seems it's not pushing her away anymore. It's still uncomfortable for her and she claims to "not understand why I'm doing it"....but it seems she's starting to accept my efforts....I can't help but believe that is a positive step. At least it's positive in plan A terms.

SIL thinks I really need to pull back now and give her a lot of space. Some of that is probably at the request of my WW and just being funneled through SIL though, too.

But, I'm starting to feel she's right. And, I almost feel myself gaining the loving detachment a little more each day. I still can't bring myself to even have to think about hitting the awful "singles scene" again....I think that will be a long time from now....and if I'm serious about my M I don't think that should even be a thought yet anyway, right?

Anyway, I guess my question is.....is plan A time about over? If WW moves in with OM (which will probably happen very soon)....should that be plan B time?? I've got WW back on pretty good terms and I sense she even feels a little remorse finally. I'm starting to feel that detachment a little bit (I repeat...a LITTLE bit!) Does that spell plan B??

Hey 2long, if you're out there:


Just wanted to let you know I've gotten this book and started reading it....it's been very helpful to me. Just wanted to say a big thank you!! I'm much like you in terms of religion, but I immediately had this book sort of hit me in a fashion that kind of woke me up a bit.

I've been a relatively unhappy person for the last 12 years or so and I'm convinced so much of it has been how much my mind controls my every day. I live out of the past and for the future and NEVER have been able to enjoy today. This book is helping me to understand that and make some changes. I must say, that is probably the thing that WW disliked the most about me too.....my unhappiness and pessimistic outlook on many things.

I slipped in the fact recently that I was working on myself spiritually and she seems very happy about that. She's doing the same in her own way and is having good results too she claims. Whether this is a step to recovery, who knows. But, at least we are working on ourselves as individuals.

I'm still trying to gather some intel. on relationship w/ OM. Can't really get a good handle on it over the last 2 weeks. Something seems a little awkward and I feel maybe they are starting to "think" about things more.......but that might just be me "wanting to believe that's the case". I can't say for sure.

WW and I are very open right now and can communicate well about things.....but we just don't talk that much. She's not upset nor withdrawn as much. That's either some good plan A work or else she's convinced I've "come around" and started to accept her A.....really not sure which is driving things. But, I've given WW more space in the last 2 weeks. Only spoke to her for about 3 or 4 minutes over the last 10 days.

Is it ok to keep moving along with plan A like this? I'm trying to work on ME and not focus on HER so much....and giving her a lot of space.....but is she getting TOO comfortable like this?

I've read that you go to Plan B when you start to feel your love fading....that's how you know. Is there such a thing as going to plan B based on the situation at hand instead of how I feel???

I feel fairly comfortable where we are right now, except the obvious idea that the A continues....which is very painful. But, I almost feel like this is too comfortable for me AND her....almost like I'm giving in to the situation and saying "ok, I accept you being with OM". She doesn't seem to be in any hurry to call or contact me....seems like she's happy about being left alone. Do I need to make more of a statement or will that be counterproductive at this point?

Should I float along having things on "good" terms right now and just give the A time to peter out a bit.......or do I need to drop a bomb on her and show her things are not acceptable? Little confused right now!

Hi ILA,

I'm not 2long, but I was am very happy to see you are taking 2long's advice with the spiritual focus and individual growth.

Living in the now is perhaps the greatest personal accomplishment towards inner happiness and peace that one can make. So I was just thrilled to read your post this morning. Wasn't even going to post today, but seeing where you have decided to take yourself on your journey through this painful sitch has spurred me to sign on.

Now with that said, Plan B is a protection plan. It's purpose is to remove you from the chaos and pain of your spouse's affair and help to prepare you for divorce, with an outline of actions the WS needs to take should they decide to return to the marriage.

It is not and usually won't work as a manipulation tool.

The best you can do in your own sitch ILA, is to make your statement by practicing self-respect, by protecting your finances, protecting your heart from further damage, AND working on those things that have contributed to you being a less than great M partner in the past.

I think that as long as you can continue in the way you are right now, if you become your own main focus and not her...to keep doing what you are doing.

You feel what you are doing is having some effect on her, it is makin communication easier and somewhat open between the two of you.

So when what you are doing is having a desireable effect, if it is leading you closer to your goal, you continue it...you don't drop a bomb on it. That's not what makes success.

Too soon for Plan B in my opinion. But it is not too soon to protect yourself financially so I really hope you have taken steps regarding this. This is important and this is a big part of regaining self-respect.

Thanks for the insight JJ. I have already learned a lot from that book and I'm only getting stated. I know that's the important route to follow through this tough time. But, I admit, it comes and goes. I was doing ok most of last week, but the last 2 nights have been really tough for whatever reason. The overwhelming sense of loss and lonliness have been really bad. It still comes and goes. I'm trying not to make any rash decisions or call up WW "just to talk" in this time of weakness. Trying to pull myself back together with the help of some of my new "knowledge".

Living for today and learning to allow yourself to be happy is one thing.....but I'm struggling with the fact that the most important thing in my life, the one thing that gave me the most happiness in life.......is not there. If W was present then things would be magnificent (knowing what I know now)!!!

As for Plan B....I was reading MEDC's post about "Where's the anger?" and it made me start to think that I was being too soft again. Started to wonder if I'm still being too much of a doormat and not garning any respect from WW. I guess that's what generated my question about plan B.

JJ, I guess I feel that plan A is maybe doing some good right now. It's doing some good for me and maybe a little good for "us", but that's hard to say. You're probably right....why drop a bomb on it when it seems to be going ok?

It's like I feel the need for some action. Stepping back and just letting her be....well that's getting pretty lonely and difficult. Almost feel "defeated" sometimes when I do that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Financially, we've sat down and split up our bills in theory and will probably implement full responsibility for such at the start of March.

There's some boundaries that she knows about. Heck, she doesn't really mention OM at all to her family and friends....it's sort of a Taboo subject and she knows it. But, at the same time WW still seems to believe that OM and her are what is right and I think she's still planning to move in with him and play house (if she hasn't already). I haven't seen any signs of her thinking anything other than WE are done and THEY are now her future. I want to say that I'm "sensing" some deeper thought by WW about everything....but that's likely just what "I want to believe". I"m trying to stay truthful to myself and step back and observe what my thoughts and emotions are trying to control......all without losing "hope" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

ILA:

Sorry for not responding earlier. I'm glad 2 see that JJ has stepped in. I'm not in very good shape right now - had another d-day that just makes me angry as all get out (that anger thread hasn't been much help, either). I swear this will be the last one, though.

JJ's right, you're not ready for plan B. But I think that when she ac2ally does move in with the OM, if she really does, then would be the optimal time.

For now, I'd better hand the reins over 2 others and focus on my own plan.

Best,
-ol' 2long

Wow, so sorry to hear this 2long. Thank you so much for your input and assistance in my situation.

I wish you all the stength and resolve possible to deal with your situation. I already know how strong you are and that you WILL be successful in handling this.

Bless YOU.

Don't worry about me, I'm fine, regardless of what I may have 2 do.

I believe I am recovered from the affair, and have been for about 3 years now. I just don't have much confidence that the marriage will ever recover, sadly.

-ol' 2long

ILA,

You are in a difficult position of trying to Plan A after your WW is moved out and for all intents and purposes, moved on. In other words she is not fence sitting, so you have zero positive reinforcement of your Plan A actions.
Even the rats in that old study must have some kind of positive reinforcement to continue going back. My point being, you are in a very hard position to maintain without being a nut case or becoming one. And it is no wonder that you are having some very bad days, although less frequently than I would have thought.

You have chosen to hang on instead of let go. But still you must in self preservation, detach.

So, how do you hang on enough to Plan A and have desire for recovery, but still detach enough for mental health?

Yes, but the thing that still doesn't make sense to me is that she "moved out and moved on" immediately. A couple days after she first said ANYTHING to me, she had "moved on" in her mind. That's the part I can't understand, can't buy in to.....that's probably WHY I keep holding on so much.



Oh, I don't know about that. Every single day is a hard day. I probably don't let on as much. Some days are just almost debilitating and I can't even function.....that's what I mean by the bad days. I can't really say that any day has been "good"!


Damn, I was hoping I'd get the answer along with the question <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That's the million dollar question right now for me. Everyone pretty much tells me I need to detach and move on. But, I just can't. Maybe that's just who I am. Maybe that's my obsessive personality. Maybe I'm afraid of being left alone and trying to start over. I try to be honest about all of these.....but it always comes back to how much I love her.....and knowing that she, recently at least, loved me that much too.

It's all too sudden, too harsh, too unexplainable. I know it's driven by the affair first and foremost.....and that I just can't accept for some reason. I can't accept this situation as the truth. I want to find an email she sent to her brother.....maybe you can tell me how much of it sounds like the truth to you and how much is fog speak.

This is an email from WW to her brother (not blood brother, but grew up together "like a brother" and are VERY close). He and his whole family have cut her off almost completely and WW was trying to get him to talk to her and explain things to him......this is essentially the same line she has told to everyone else including me.

The story doesn't change a whole lot. This is her mantra....she really, truly believes in these words right now and this is how she justifies the whole situation.

Do you see any truth in this or does it all sound like fog speak to you:

"hey (BROTHER)...(ILA) made it pretty clear as did your mom that u guys didn't want
to talk to me and that I was not welcome in the house...that's why I was
letting you all make the first move...I have talked to (OTHER BROTHER) and that's it.
If you would like to get together to discuss that would be great. know
that the choice I made to start seeing someone else was made independently
of (ILA)...we have been having the same issues for the past 5 years, we just
chose not to share that with anyone which is why this all seems so out of
the blue for most people. The fact that things came to a head 6 months
after the wedding is inconsequential...the issues have always been there.
He is willing to work on things, and I have already expressed that I
understand that, however the point in a relationship where you have finally
worked up the courage to actually leave someone, you have mentally 'checked
out' and no amount of counseling or therapy is going to help that.
I love you and the rest of the family very much...this is especially hard
because I feel like I can't even talk to you...YOU the one who I have
ALWAYS been able to talk to about things. You know I love you and would
never do anything to jeopardize my relationship with you. If you feel that
my actions have somehow done this then I am sorry, this is not about anyone
else but me and (ILA). I understand how the family feels affected by this,
but bad things happen, I fell out of love, I wasn't happy, and he stopped
trying...the willingness to try no is irrelevant in my eyes. I still care
about him and his well being, just the love we once had has shifted to a
purely platonic feeling...it sucks, I know but again not a lot I can do
about it.

It hurts me a lot to think that you are questioning my loyalty and advice
that we have shared over the years...there have been many times that you
were the ONLY reason that I have stayed so close to the family...you're
parents and I have drifted apart off and on and the twins too, but you and
I have always been close. I love you (BROTHER) and I totally understand your
frustration with the situation, you don't have to like it, or even accept
it, but its happened and it just needs to be dealt with. I am a grown women
capable of making my own grown up decisions, you might not think I know
what I am doing or have done, but I am fully aware and am accepting all of
the consequences."

So, this is essentially what I'm battling against. If I could sum up the whole situation it's basically right here in this email. This is what WW is COMPLETELY focused on and why she won't even think about trying to work on us. She really has "checked out" emotionally and can't even allow herself to feel ANY emotions for me or think about our past or future. Could this stuff be true, partially true, or is it all just B.S. ??? Due to the fact that I'm so involved, I tend to waiver back and forth in how much of this I believe to be TRUTH. I think I'm too close to it all to see it objectively.

BTW, the talk about our "problems for 5+ years" is pretty much B.S. Nothing more than typical relationship stuff. There are no problems that should cause her to walk away so abruptly.....so I know that is re-writing history.

This was written the first week of February. I didn't want to post this for a while b/c I was afraid she might get on MB and see it. But at this point I don't think it really matters.
Anyway, thoughts anyone???
Thanks
ILA

I'm not going to read the email right now, because I want to keep going on this line of thought first.

Now you made a decision to try and recover this marriage, I am not stating my own opinions about that anymore. I will say that trying to figure her out is a complete waste of time. It is a pointless, fruitless diversion to what you need to do if what you say is true...that you want to try and recover this marriage. I believe your WW is just being true to herself, her past actions tell us this is true. That is enough for me.

Now with that said, I am going to help you get a plan and work one.



By having a plan with goals listing the desired outcome of each goal. Thia is what makes the plan and the goals measureble. And they must be measureable to know if you are reaching them or not.

What is your Plan A? What are your measerable goals during this Plan A? What is the desired result of your Plan A?

I want you to get a notebook and start devising your plan. And a most important thing to remember throughout your plan, is that you do not base your actions on her actions/reactions/nonactions/nonreactions. IF after a measerable amount of time, the plan needs to be modified you will modify it...but usually this is not done.

You start with the end result in mind, and do up a list of goals that will help get you to that end result.

Now keeping in mind that there are two parts to this plan. A and B. Go ahead and devise your Plan A.


If you will do that ILA, we will work with you on this plan. I for sure will, and I am very good at plans. It's about the only thing I understand on this site, if you want to know the truth. The importance of plans.

I have to leave now ILA, but please do this.

This is what will keep you sane, and give you the best chance at recovery.

Advice taken, JJ. You're so right. I've been trying to float along "doing plan A stuff" without really having a set Plan with set goals and desired results.

Not sure why I didn't realize that....it's so simple and basic!

I guess I've been so busy talking to people, reading books, reading this website, talking to counselors, etc.etc........that I haven't stopped and made time to create a roadmap to success.

Thanks. I'll get to work on that, JJ.

How's this for just completely f*#king up a good thing? I was REALLY struggling today and ended up sending WW this email (after much debate). Definite moment of weakness that got the best of me:

"Hey.

Sorry to bug you, but I was wondering if you are free tonight for a while? I really feel the need to talk to you.

I'm having a pretty rough day, for whatever reason. Can't really explain why, just part of the ups and downs of all of this I guess. I can talk to other people all I want, but it's not the same. I need to hear your voice.

I don't know where you're living, what you're doing, etc. Don't know when or if I can/should call you......and I hate that. You are the one person that means the world to me and I don't even know if I should call you....what the ******...this sucks.

I'm supposed to go to the gym tonight and would be home around 9:00....was thinking maybe we could talk then? I know you're going to Reno and probably don't want to be up too late though either. Then again, if you're free and want to meet up earlier and/or talk face to face that would be terrific too....I can change my plans. Just let me know if either is an option.

Baby, I'm trying my best not to bother you and let both of us have some "peace" but sometimes I really need you to be there for me. Thank you for understanding.

I love you
(ILA)"

So much for standing strong, showing her I'm doing ok, and not pushing the issue, huh? Geesh, I'm weak right now!

She hasn't responded yet....don't know if she hasn't checked email or is just avoiding this altogether......wow, am I stupid or what?

It's obvious.....I'm pretty screwed up this week!!!!!! Do I need to backpeddle from this if she calls me or is it ok for her to know I'm having a tough day and "need" her?? Part of the carrot and stick is "stick"ing her with the truth about how much pain she is causing me......but this is probably over the top, huh? :P

Well, WW called me and we talked as each of us was driving home from work. I admitted it had been a difficult day and I simply wanted to hear her voice (as I'd said in earlier email). I explained that she's always been there for me with a reassuring and compassionate voice, and even though it's not so reassuring anymore...it's still her voice and sometimes I still need to hear it. I tried my best not to be too much of a wuss, and for the most part I think I did ok.....but at the same time I felt ok in letting her know that this is hard on me. If nothing else, hopefully it played to her emotions a little bit and raised the guilt factor some...who knows. We had a really good, VERY calm conversation. Talked a lot about where we both were in this, how we both felt. I talked about how I was handling things (pretty well I said) but that some days are still tough b/c this is very painful. Told her how much I care, how much I worry about her. Didn't push her on our future b/c she won't even hear of it.....just tried to plant a few questions in her head if nothing else.

She isn't waivering, still insists she just simply fell out of love with me, got married for wrong reasons, etc. I tried to mention that I was upset she kept blaming our problems and that if OM didn't exist that we wouldn't find ourselves here. That must strike a nerve b/c that's the only time she got defensive over the 30 minute discussion. And she's gotten defensive every other time I've ever brought it up too. I think deep down she knows that this is about OM and nothing else, but she won't and can't admit it.....she's spent too much time coming up with other "reasons" for validation that when I mention this TRUTH it puts her on the defensive immediately.....that sort of tells me something. Things like that convince me that first and foremost this is a typical A situation.

Anyway, bad part is she's moving in with OM soon. Hasn't "officially" done it but admitted that she's been staying there most nights since his grandma died 2 weeks ago and he inherited the house. I pretty much knew that but it's still hard to hear her say it.

She had the nerve to tell me she didn't feel right about moving in until we'd filed for divorce. I think I responded that her moving in didn't matter to me.....it was no differnt than any of the other things she's decided to do. Unfortunately, I think she took that to mean I was "approving of it"......not exactly what I meant by it. Anyway, she claims she's had almost 3 months to think about things now and she feels confident she's doing the right thing for her. She wants to get D and sell our house eventually and live this life with OM......not much doubt in her mind right now.

Not really sure how to combat this. I think I need to really lay out a plan A complete w/ goals and objectives like JJ suggested in her last post. I need to make sure I've given plan A a good run and achieved what I need to. But, with her moving in with OM.....maybe it's time to go plan B. I have to draw the line somewhere and that seems like as good a place as any.

Doesn't seem like much hope left, with her moving on like she is. But, deep down I know this isn't real. Someday she'll come around, I'm convinced of that.....but whether or not it's too late is the big question. I HAVE to learn to detach.....this is killing me!

The desired result of Plan A is to attract your WS back.

While trying to bust up the affair and protecting yourself financially.

It seems you have done what you can as far as exposing the affair to try and bust it up, and as far as you can on protecting your finances.

So now you work on the attraction factor with the hopes of leaving her with a good impression of you.

You have identified the areas she has complaints that actually have merit, and are taking steps to address those in yourself. (this is something you do by actually changing those behaviors, not something you try to tell her about).

Avoid any relationship talk when you have conversations with her in the future. This is very important. NO relationship talks initiated by you, and if she initiates them say as little as possible, only listen.

I'd say go to Plan B right now too, except for the fact that I don't think you can stay dark, and because I don't think you have lost enough love for her. And I think a botched up Plan B will make you look even weaker to her. I just don't think you are strong enough yet. Cymanca says you only get one chance to do a great Plan B.

How does a plan B fall in line with D proceedings. Sounds like WW still wants to file in about another month. Does plan B go along with D? We have 6 month minimum in California once filed. Should plan B coincide with this? Through D there is a lot to do in terms of making decisions....so we would have to communicate. Neither one of us can afford getting lawyers involved....and quite frankly there's not enough in our sit. to justify lawyers....pretty simple D case really. He!!, she just wants to walk away....pretty much said I can have most everything we own.

Her moving in with OM seems like a natural line in the sand. D filing would even be a more distinct line in the sand. But you're right, I don't know how I can stay dark through all of that. It would be much easier to do so, say after a D is finalized......but I'm thinking that's a little late to save a M !!!

Filing for D looks pretty much inevitable at this point. Still can't decide if I want to make WW do it or if I want to beat her to the punch.....that way I can always withdraw it later and make her start the timeline all over again!....if I really wanted to draw this out longer that is.

I would agree in many circumstances that when she moves in with OM it's time for plan B, like I said before.

But if you don't want a DV, and neither of you can afford one, you have a lot more power than you think.

You can delay it.

You can be hard 2 get hold of 2 discuss terms. In fact, you should prepare yourself for a battle, and hire a mean lawyer 2 make as long a list of things you want 2 keep out of your marital home that you are living in and that she's abandoned. Then, slowly (via lawyers) negotiate down from EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN stays with you, 2 50/50.

This alone will take months. Plan A while it goes on, staying upbeat when you talk 2 her. Don't talk about DV (Heck, I'd even hang up on her if she mentions it, but that's just the kind of thing I did after d-day).

From her letter (and her current behavior), it's pretty clear she's a typical wayward. The fog-bound really do believe that being in love is what life is all about. Un42nately, those who continue believing that doom themselves 2 passion that only lasts a 2ple years at a time before it gets boring or painful, then the hop 2 the next such relationship.

Love is not a feeling.

Love is a conscious choice.

She could love you and only you if she knew that. But she doesn't. And you can't educate her. If she ever learns the truth, she'll do it all by herself.

-ol' 2long

Yes, I feel I did pretty much everything I could on exposure....and I continue reinforcing it to her friends/family every chance I get.....making sure they know the whole story about her and OM b/c WW doesn't bring it up. Finances are pretty well under control too I think.


This can probably still use more work (when can't it??!!) WW has been very quick to show her happiness that I'm taking the steps I'm taking. She compliments me often on how much weight I've lost and how good I look. She's complimented me recently since I've mentioned the spiritualism and self-realization that I'm working on....she's "very proud of me for that". She's acknowledged the efforts I'm willing to make and am making....but she's convinced that it's too little too late. In her own words "the willingness to change now is inconsequential to me". I don't see how that can be anything more than foggy A-talk. But, even though she sees all this, I still tell myself that more can be done still....and that's the only reason why I'm reluctant to go to plan B just yet.

As for R talk....I'm not very good at avoiding it. That's just me...I have this inherent need for answers. It does still annoy her but she's more open to it than before. I think she's a little more willing to talk now, but probably only b/c she's "really made up her mind" that she IS going to be with OM so doesn't feel as threatened by it.

How do you get through the hard times, vets? Man, I'm just worthless right now.

I've had a very stressful day at work, but right now I'm just sitting here at work and can't do ANYTHING.....just feel like bursting out in tears. I'm a wreck.

Don't know why, but the last 3 days have been really hard. I guess it's knowing WW is moving in with OM (although I knew it was going to happen, now it's reality).

I know everyone's different on how they deal with pain.....I'm just looking for ideas. Bad thing is, I met WW not long after moving to Cali. All my friends and family here are her friends and family....I don't have ANY of my own friends that I can just go "hang out with". I feel so freaking alone, it's ridiculous. Sometimes alone with your thoughts is ok.....but right now it's driving me mad.

I can't remember.

Have you called the Harleys for some coaching?

They seem expensive, until you compare the cost of a handful of sessions with that of divorce.

They can help you come up with a plan, if you need help.

-ol' 2long

No I haven't. I've decided I need to and want to, just haven't done it. Maybe I can now. Thanks 2long.

Going to talk to WW's best friend in a couple hours....maybe that will help some too. She's brutally honest though...so it might be a downer!

Click on "Coaching Center" at the top or bottom of this page.

Follow the links.

I got an appointment for 2morrow morning, and I only just filled out the online form last night.

Your WW's friend may or may not be helpful. Hard 2 know. Few friends and relatives have the experience 2 know what 2 do about cases of infidelity, particularly when it's their own friend "following their heart" (puke). And none of them have the experience of a trained professional.

-ol' 2long

Hang in there! There are still some days at work I cant focus at all...and theres something about 4 pm that leaves this crushing feeling in my chest... like I cant breathe. It starts to fade... you get down to 2-3 x a week then maybe 1x a week... unless something else crushing happens and you start over again. I wish I could tell you what will stop it. I had strong urges to cheat in kind, level the playing field... but I didnt, cause I knew it wouldnt help.
What I learned... what has helped is moving to recovery. About the time I chose that I would have to do it alone... Plan D... he came around. Now he has turned into my lifeline (the LB and HNHN courses helped him get there). When I cant breathe, I call him... and he talks to me, says beautiful things. I can breathe... most days. I hope you get there too. My heart goes out to you

Thanks for chiming in 4YR....always good to hear get some "hope" from someone who's been there/done that.

2long, WW's best friend isn't going to give me advice. I've talked to her a few times already. Yes, she supports WW first and foremost, but still doesn't agree with the actions.

I'm actually just taking back some things she'd given us recently..(stuff for our future kids....that we don't need now....ouch). Just figured a little up-to-date exposure and some attentive listening from her might be nice. I'm not expecting much :P

I'll definitely get something scheduled with Harley's soon.

Good. Plans are good ILA. They help you to focus on things on actions. This is the best way I know to feel like I am not a victim...like I have control over which way my life is going.

For me I can't stand pain. I will do anything to avoid it. I got very good at controlling where I allowed my thoughts to take me. At concentrating on joyful thoughts. I have a wild, vivid imagination and I have lived in it a lot at different times in my life where the pain was too much for me. I actually taught my daughter when she was little to control where her thoughts went when she was feeling scared. Take them to a happy place and pretend you are there.

I tried Lexapro for about five months, but I don't know if it did anything more than just numb me. Of course I think it helped me to sleep. And exorcise, eating and sleeping are three of things you abosolutely must have during times of duress. And probably they are the hardest things to do. Just gotta make yourself.

Music. That's the other thing that helps me.

And of course knowing you are not alone and that people care about you. This is huge. Even if the only people you can find are here on this board. It is still people caring about you.

(((((ILA)))))

Thanks for the kind thoughts, JJ. I'm exercising (joined gym and got trainer...have lost 35 lbs. since late Dec...from 260 to 225. Another 5-10 lbs. and I'll be at my goal...definitely look and feel MUCH better). Also, getting easier to eat and sleep normally....but that comes and goes.

Never was one that wanted ANY medication...but am starting to wonder now, because I just can't focus on anything but this situation. It's affecting all other aspects of my life still.

I am lucky that I've got support here and support from all of WW's family and frineds as well as mine......whenever I need to talk to someone, there is someone there for me. The outpouring and love and support has been unbelievable (especially from WW's family...that tells me a lot about who I am...which makes a person feel good).

Toughest thing is that everybody tells me to just move on....quit doing this to yourself....this is just WW and she's not likely to change. I know that's probably the truth too. But, I've seen the great side of W for nearly 6 years. I know the person she really is. Granted, I never saw this dark side of her until now. WW's sister said that ever since WW met me, her life had turned around and sister worries about her falling back into this dark pattern.

I know I can't change WW....only she can. But I'm not willing to just turn and walk away from her either. That's what everyone has always done and that's why she continues in this pattern....that's all she knows. She's never had to face consequences or have people take a hard line with her. I think the fact that I'm fighting for her is confusing (and frustrating) to WW....b/c she's never had that happen before. I guess that's why I believe she CAN and MIGHT change. I believe that eventually she'll be able to come out of the fog and see what we really have....and then WE can start the process of making those changes....permanently this time, so she never goes through this again.

Everyone else is too quick to dismiss her actions and see her almost as a "lost cause". They will always love and support her but just think she's always going to be this way. I think that's really sad.

Am I crazy to think this can happen. She's never been in a relationship that has been as good as ours. She'll never be loved as much as I love her. Is that enough to make someone "wake up" and decide to change eventually? Or, am I just chasing something that has no chance of happening?

"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal" ~~Henry Ford

Decide what it is you want, make a plan, execute plan.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks but you. But don't waffle back and forth second guessing your decision.

If you have decided that you want to try and get your wife back then set your course and stick to it.

That bears repeating -

If you have decided that you want to try and get your wife back then set your course and stick to it.

Don't be weak minded and waffle.

You make a decision of what you want then make a plan to get it.

Set a time limit.

Perhaps six months.

"For six months I will work towards this goal, and then at the end of that six months I will place it in the hands of God (or providence, or fate, whatever you want to call it) and move on." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Beautifully put. With those words, I've made my decision. As hard as it may be I will work towards my goals and do all that I can do.

Thanks

Good, now make that appointment!

I enjoyed the he11 out of mine!

-ol' 2long

Man, I hadn't spoken to WW for over a week until yesterday she called and said her car is pretty much dead and she needed to get a new car (which I knew would happen soon). She had the nerve to ask what "we" should do about it and then said she can't afford our mortgage and a new car so "we" needed to do something with our house right away (just 2 weeks after we agreed to sit tight on the house for 6 months at least). I got pretty steamed and we fought a little. I mean, just b/c her car dies why do I have to get screwed? Take the bus, get a used car, have your soulmate pay for it since you're going to spend your life together anyway.....why does the BS always get screwed? !!!

I had a couple of LB's I'm sure...such as "I'm sick and tired of you thinking you can walk all over me like your doormat", "how is it that you continually make me out to be the bad guy" (which was in response to me dropping an f-bomb and her saying "quit cussing at me" & "why are you so intent on making me suffer") & best of all "don't you EVER claim that I'm trying to make you suffer that is simply NOT true...although I have every right in the world to make you suffer after what you've done"

Yeah, it was fun. I don't have a specific appointment scheduled yet with Jennifer/Harleys but hopefully will talk to them early next week. WW is coming over tomorrow to get some clothes and I just found out she decided to go out and buy a new car last night anyway....so she wants me to sign over her old one (trade in) as it's in both of our names. Don't know what the ****** is happening right now but I'm worried tomorrow might be "Saturday night fight time".

I'm sure Harley's are going to tell me to plan A a little longer/better.....but I don't know if I can bite my tongue tomorrow or not. I'm really getting fed up....just like you L2F!

I'm really starting to believe in plan B time (just b/c WW is completely unresponsive and I'm starting to get too angry, but don't want to do anything hasty until meeting with Harley's and get their thoughts.

Wow, should I play it cool or just tell WW off tomorrow? I don't know. I'm finding my anger now, just don't want to act simply out of anger and make things worse.

Well, it's understandable that her call would be upsetting, 2 put this mildly as possible.

During plan A, there will be setbacks. Almost everybody has them. And in a si2ation like yours, it's even harder 2 stay upbeat.

I wouldn't worry 2 much about the LBs. Especially since it appears that she either had already bought the car when she called you, or she bought it right after without getting your okay 2 go ahead.

It's reasonable, of course, for her 2 request that you sign off your interest in the old one so she can go ahead with the tradein. But you shouldn't cosign or pay for the new one or the insurance on it in any way.

I think your suggestion that she get the OM 2 help with the payments is a good and reasonable one 2 make.

Also, he can help pay for the insurance. I'd notify your insurance company (and your lawyer) as soon as possible that you no longer own the old car, and that you aren't renewing on any other car either.

Have you asked for an appointment yet? I wouldn't be surprised if they suggest you plan A for a bit longer, but they might not. Depends so much on how you're doing and the si2ation as a whole.

-ol' 2long

I don't think she can borrow on anything that is one-half yours unless you sign over your half. DO NOT DO IT! You are absolutely correct to assume that OM should now be responsible for her debts.

BD...drive-by poster

Well, I finally signed up for appt. with Harley...hopefully by midweek I'll have talked to someone. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel right now...D seems inevitable. So hopefully they can get me on a strong plan and give some good suggestions...really looking forward to the coaching.

WW came by yesterday and picked up most of her remaining clothes. I asked if she was living with OM now full time or still at Aunt's house....she said both. I think it's pretty much at OM's except maybe when OM has his child??? That and I don't think WW wants to tell her Aunt the truth b/c she knows Aunt will be p.o.'d (although Aunt already knows the truth from me). I've also told WW's best friend and sister that she's living with OM....neither of them knew...the deceit and lies continue! WW obviously feels guilt and knows she's going against everyone's beliefs.

My big problem right now is legal. B/c she bought new car this week, now WW insists we do something to get rid of the house. Neither of us know the best option. I've talked to L on a consultation and got some ideas (best option is probably to turn over to bank and take the credit hit....we are upside down about 80-100k right now). WW told me she's seeing a L on Tuesday "mainly to ask about her legal responsibility with the house". This could be bad b/c I understand that since I'm still living here, WW might have a right to receive some "rent" money from me.....that's what my L said....not sure how all that works though. WW actually asked me if I wanted to talk Tuesday night after she meets L so we can discuss ideas that L gave her. That befuddled me...I even told WW..."do you really want to tell me what advice your L gave you?"....we actually laughed about it a bit!

Anyway, I'm a bit in limbo right now about our house, the bills, etc. We have things lined up to start splitting the bills and all, but if I force the issue too hard WW will simply stop paying her half of the mortgage....then we are really screwing things up. I'm sort of walking a fine line right now....trying to put some financial pressure but still trying to avoid armageddon! I need to talk to our lender this week to get other ideas on the house....and I may need to go ahead and retain my L soon. Neither of us can afford L's in this mess, and we even openly acknowledge that much to each other....but I may need to anyway, not sure.

Yesterday actually went ok in terms of plan A stuff. Most of the time was civil. I did voice my opinions for about 10 minutes though. Told WW, "yes, WE do share responsibility on lots of finances....WE made a lot of decisions together about OUR future...living together, getting married, buying a house, even having kids this year....then in one swift move YOU made a decision to walk away from all of that. YOU didn't ask me, your family, or your friends but just made YOUR decision. It really angers me that YOUR ONE decision has to impact OUR lives so much and put a strain on MY future". Her response...."I know, it sucks and I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is".

Also hammered the issue that she sells to everyone that "my being with OM has absolutely nothing to do with our problems...they are totally separate". Everytime I start to refute that WW gets defensive and I told her as much this time. I told her it was obvious that if OM didn't exist we wouldn't find ourselves where we are. She wouldn't have walked away from our M if he wasn't already waiting in the wings. I got her fired up enough to blurt out..."well if you would have paid more attention to me, then I wouldn't have had to go elsewhere to get attention"....that's one of the only times she's given a response that actually clues me in to some of the "real" reasons she's done this and which EN's got neglected the most. Hurtful to hear, but at the same time helpful in the intel department. She also mentioned that "she's not my therapist and why do I have to keep asking questions about things". Boy, the day I have HER as my therapist.....I'm in big trouble!!!!

Hoping some M coaching from Harley can pick up my spirits!

You guys were right....I had first session with Jennifer yesterday and she was great.

A lot of the stuff I guess I already knew and understood just from the MB books and this chat room....but she still had a lot of good strategies and a lot of ideas on things to do.

I've got a to-do list now and some direction for more plan
A work. On a side note, I asked Jennifer if you should go to plan B only when your emotions dictate it (i.e. losing that loving feeling)....or if the situation can dictate plan B also (b/c divorce filing might be coming soon).

She said that usually plan B goes along with D filing, but in my case I know I need a little more plan A first.

She stressed the need to eliminate LB's (DJ's in the way of trying to "educate" WW is my biggest problem), and trying to meet EN's through short letters each week to WW to show her subtly what I've learned and how I've changed for the better.

Anyway, long story short, it was helpful and I'm sure I'll get a follow up session with Jennifer in a few weeks. I need to work on formulating my goals for plan A along with a timeline then hope for the best as I work my plan.

That's wonderful, ILA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've heard GREAT things about Jennifer, and I'm SO happy you're getting her help!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Lori

Thanks Lori.

Because we are at the point where there has to be some discussion about D and what to do with the house in the event of a D (not b/c I want to, but b/c WW insists on it)....I can't simply avoid all talk about finances, etc. Although we've done a pretty good job of being civil, inevitably some of this still ends up causing arguements and LB's.

Jennifer gave a great suggestion that I ask WW if we can ONLY talk about material items like that via email. Convince WW it's the best way for us to remain freindly and respectful of one another. When we see each other or talk on the phone we shouldn't discuss those types of things...only via email.

I thought that was a tremendous suggestion, something that hadn't crossed my mind. This way we can avoid the LB's by more carefully choosing our words, I can continue to do nothing but plan A stuff when we communicate directly, and it sort of sets some boundaries if you will. Not to mention, I will have a written account of any decisions we make.

Just thought I'd mention one of several great suggestions Jennifer had....I'm hope to employ this strategy.

Just updating my "log". Wow, so much can change in a day. I was so upbeat after speaking with Jennifer at MB....now I might be at a point of no return.

WW had consultation w/ L tonight, then called to discuss things. L convinced her I was responsible for everything w/ our house since I was the only one living here (utilities, upkeep, all of mortgage, etc.) I know she may have some right to some rental benefit of the property, but I don't think I'm solely responsible....need to find out legal rights. She also took $1600 out of our savings without asking, claiming it's her money (comes out of her paycheck) but it's our money as it is joint account and is used to pay for our bills. She just wants to walk away from everything the quickest/easiest way possible (which is her M.O. anyway I know...that's how she grew up too, with her parents doing the same thing). She is willing to just completely default on our house, ruin her credit, and go on with her fantasy life......and she's ok with taking me down with her unfortunately. I don't know if she feels any remorse, guilt, shame, or anything....she's so shut down emotionally right now.

I got very very upset and by end of conversation, told WW to "F-off". Never in nearly 6 years did that phrase ever come to mind....I never thought I'd say it to her. I told WW's sister what happened and she said "good for you...probably makes you feel better doesn't it?". I told her..."no it doesn't, I feel absolutely horrible"....and that's the truth.

WW has been saying all along she wants to work together to figure out the D, house, finances, etc. We both have acknowledged that we can't afford L's.....but she's called down the thunder with this senseless move. I don't know yet, but I may have to retain L now, maybe go ahead and file for D on my own....I might have to play hardball. That may or may not signal the end to any hope of our M and a future together, but I don't know if I have any choice. WW has complete disregard for me or anyone else. I have to protect myself and respect myself too.

Jennifer had me all set up to do some more great plan A work....but I may not have a choice. It might just be straight to plan B or even to plan D and plan FU. UUUUGGGGGHHHHH!

Get a lawyer, ILA.

Your wife is a wayward....and, thus, a liar. Her saying that she wants to "work together" to figure out the finances, etc., is total crap. Her actions have shown otherwise. Active waywards are selfish, and she's obviously no different. She wants what will benefit HER at this point.

If you think hiring a lawyer will cost you too much, just try NOT getting one! Your WW can easily destroy your credit and make your life very difficult, if you don't do something NOW.

Get a lawyer, ILA.

VERY good point!

Updating my log....just called to retain lawyer this afternoon. I have a meeting tomorrow with her to start the ball rolling. WW has left me with no other recourse....she's pushing the issue and making threats....it's time to protect my interests.

This sucks and doesn't do much for the prospects of any M saving....but it is what it is. I'm sure plan B will need to follow right behind and coincide.

I'm interested to see how WW responds to me going on the offensive. She's been quick to use threats whenever I get to close to her A or when she wants to make something happen.....well her threats are making something happen now. I know she doesn't intend to get a lawyer, so it'll be intresting to see if she backs down after this. I don't know if I should file for D now or still wait for WW to do it....not sure legally if one is beneficial over the other??? I'll see what L says.

Man this sucks. I've always held out hope for us, and I guess a small part of me still does.....but she's taking it too far. She's broken, she's inconsiderate, she's selfish, and just plain evil and ugly right now. I know this isn't the real her, rather some evil that she's in the grips of....but she's leaving me no choice.

Got sort of a stupid question.....now that I'm filing for D and have retained L (all of that simply is to protect myself....I don't WANT to do it).....is it stupid to try and do anymore plan A work?

There still suggestions Jennifer gave me that I'd like to work on. WW doesn't know yet that I'm filing....probably be another week or two before I actually do it. I sort of think I'd like to take Jennifer's suggestion of a couple short letters to WW telling her some of the things I've learned through this whole process. I guess it's a way of showing WW that I realize why she became unhappy, I understand any deficiencies I may have had in our M and that I'm correcting them. At least this would leave a good lasting impression prior to plan B letter.

It seems like after D filing it's almost necessary to move to plan B but I'd like another opportunity to show her what she's leaving behind.

Is that too weird now that things with our house and finances have sort of blown up? Last time we spoke (2 days ago) I told WW I wanted to only correspond via email regarding legal or financial issues and if we talked in person or on the phone I want it to not be about that stuff b/c all it does is put us on the defensive and make us fight (Jennifer's suggestion). She seemed to understand that.....but I haven't corresponded with her since.

I don't want to fight with her one day, then send her a heartfelt plan-A type letter the next if that's going to make her think I'm some sort of psycho or am bi-polar or something!

It's weird b/c emotionally I'm not ready for plan B, but the circumstance almost dictates it. Can you plan A during a D....especially if I'm the one who files first?