Problem w/ finances is I need her's just as much as she needs mine. We can only make ends meet by pooling all of our money. It's a real fine line. If I cut everything off somehow, then I can't pay bills and then we start down the path of divorce/selling our house for a huge loss/etc.....very bad situation.

I'll be honest....I don't see how there's ANY way I'm going to get NC. They want to be together and they don't care who knows it now, what consequences there are...nothing! I don't think if they both lost their jobs it would do any good even! They don't care who they are hurting, they only believe that "we are grown people and can make our own decisions". She doesn't care that I tell her "I'm just fighting for our marriage b/c that's the most important thing in the world to me"....she says I'm dilusional and it pisses her off that I keep trying.

Even as brutally honest and blunt as she's been recently about nothing ever working out....I do believe it can and will some day. Trust me, I really do. But, the exposure isn't seeming to do any good and it's driving more and more of a wedge between us. She's starting to think I'm psychotic even though she's the one that is.

I know I've got to STOP the relationship talk all together, but I feel like I'm hopeless to try and break up the A right now. Principal hasn't called me back yet, I'm wondering if he even will? Maybe you're right I just need to go there. W is just so damn pissed about my enterference with her life that I can't help to wonder if it will do more harm than good? Like I said, I really don't think it's going to do ANYTHING to help separate them....they are so far down that path of being convinced that's what they want.

I'm just really confused. Every night I get a call from her about leaving her alone and quit talking to people about her. The other thing is, my W is a little unique in that she makes up her mind about something and there is NO changing it. That's what her older sister (best friend by far) tells me....not even she can get through to my W when she gets to this point....and I'm starting to believe it. There would have to be some extensive counseling to break W out of this cycle that she lives in, and I don't see her being willing to do it right now. It's W's defense mechanism from all the crap she had to grow up with. The more I expose, the more I talk to people, the worse things seem to get!

Since I don't see any way to break up the A, it makes me wonder if I should just let it happen, run it's course, and die on it's own....the sooner the better instead of fighting it? That sounds silly, but I feel like I have no chance against them right now and the more I fight the more I get wounded.

Man I feel like crap today. I sure understand the roller coaster, yesterday I felt good with all the great feedback I got here and after talking to OMW the night before....but now I feel no hope.

I guess I'll still try to expose to her principal(s) but after that I think I've gotten to everyone I can. I just haven't even had a chance to do much plan A b/c I never see her or talk to her much. Guess that's all I can do right now though.....and at the same time start preparing for legal protection for myself.

Brutal!

The sooner you realize there's not much special or unique about your WW, you, or your marriage, the better off you're going to be.

This situation is so normal that there's dozens of websites out there giving advice on how to deal with it. Its so normal that people make great livings counseling others in this very predictament. Its so normal that we've pretty much told you verbatim what you WW is going to do and say in response to your actions, yet you still want to do "Plan ILA". Plan ILA hasn't worked so good has it? Why keep doing it? Do you have so little self control that you can't follow a simple plan?

Hate to say it, but you have a bad attitude. I know you're going through hard times, but you need to get the attitude that you're going to fix this no matter what and get with the program! It DOESN'T mean you will succeed, no one can guarantee you that, but if there's one thing I know, if you think you're going to fail, then you ARE going to fail!

And to he11 with finances etc! Who really gives a rats [censored] about that?! If neither of you can afford to live on your own then you don't have enough to care about anyhow, right?!

Tyk, I do hear you, believe me. I know I've got the defeatist attitude today...just b/c that's where I'm at emotionally today....24 hours later that will change.

I don't think I'm going to fail or I wouldn't have been fighting this hard...I'd have walked away by now. I really do believe I will win this fight...I just haven't been patient enough to this point.

I know I'm still a rookie at this...only about 2 weeks worth of learning about A's. Many instances I read about seem to have at least a little bit of willingness from the WS to want to try or show some doubt or something. My W is just so damn adamant about things that it DOES make it hard to keep charging forward. Like you said, I keep banging my head against a wall every day.

I know I haven't followed the plan accurrately b/c I just didn't fully understand it. I'm committed to trying to do it now b/c I know that's the only way to succeed. It just seems like things get worse and worse and worse, though. It would be helpful to see some sign of improvement, no matter how small! And, everything I do or say, whether it's following the plan or not following the plan.....every single action seems to drive us further apart.

I do have faith in the system, it makes perfectly logical sense to me. Everything I read from Dr. Harley and others and everything I read here from all you great people....it all makes perfect sense. I just want some damn results....just some glimmer of hope is all. Like I said, I'm just being too impatient and am trying to solve the problem RIGHT NOW........and I'm only hurting things.

I'm just confused a lot of times by what I'm supposed to be doing. I want to plan A, but:

...I just work on myself and act "normal and happy" to her, not talk relationship, etc. but then she thinks that I'm ok with what she's doing and the A seems to grow and/or I get the impression she thinks I'm MORE of a doormat

...if I tell her I'm NOT accepting of her behavior then she wants to attack me and tell me to move on...and yes I know I've been REACTING WAY too much to that.

...exposure seems to backfire b/c it's not showing ANY results and just pisses her off so much (which I understand I should expect) and really seems to drive them closer to each other, like they are banding together to fight back

...I've been told I'm supposed to "be a man" and show W that I'm fighting for my respect and fighthing for my M, but it seems that only makes her madder too and drives her closer to OM.

I guess that's what is so confusing to me. Everytime I try to do part of the plan, it seems to have negative affects in some other way. No positives, only negatives!

I do everything I can to keep my own positive outlook, but obviously some days are tougher than others.

Do I need to learn more reverse babble, learn to walk away from situations more, am I closer to plan B already in the situation I'm in? Just confused..........obviously!

Its ok for her to be mad about certain things. She's mad because she knows that what she is doing is wrong and you are making it harder and harder for her to rationalize and justify her decisions. It creates conflict within her which manifests as anger towards you. Once the A is over and she ends the addiction she will realize that it was HER decisions and thinking that were flawed.

And its ok right now if you are driving them closer together. Because what that really means is that you and OMW are ISOLATING them! What that means is that they will eventually turn on each other. Here are these two people destroying thier own families, basing thier decisions on lies and fantasy, and you think THEY are going to be able to work it out with each other? No way! What happens when OM has to go to his kid's BDay party and your W isn't invited? Basically, don't worry about that. The faster reality sets in on the affair relationship the faster it will fall apart.

That's what we mean about this stuff being counter-intuitive ILA. What seems to be a bad sign is often in fact expected and part of a well executed plan.

Have you talked to the pricipal yet? Why not? :P

Yeah, I realize that, Tyk. Man your support is appreciated. You're so right about things being counter-intuitive....that's something so hard for me to realize b/c my brain just wants to be logical all the time, even though this is an illogical situation.

Maybe this was a mistake but I called W and told her I was sorry about the way things went last night. Said it was bringing me pain today knowing how we left things. W said she felt the same way today. I told her that we obviously had our own points of view and we both felt we were doing the right thing, unfortunatly we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I reiterated that I cannot support any of her actions, and she said she realized that. Then I told her that no matter the outcome, this is going to be a long ordeal and as weird as it sounds, we need to be able to support each other through this tough time. She agreed. I told her I just didn't want her being away for several days with both of us being pissed off at each other, that's all.

Very good, very civil conversation. My only intention was to sort of start back at square one, if you will. Patch things up just a bit (deposit to her love bank) so that I can set a baseline to start plan-A'ing her and STOP talking relationship and affair.

Do you think this was a stupid thing to do, was i way to weak again, or is this ok? It's what my gut told me to do, so I figure the counter-intuitive thing would be NOT to have done it....but I feel a little better at least.

I haven't heard from principal yet so I think I'll try to call him now as I go to lunch.

Man, I can't get any response from W's principal. Email, message with assistant....no response. I really don't think I'm going to get much support from her school. I'll keep trying though.

jmwc95...you said to cut off the joint accounts...but does it do any good? I live in CA, a community property state. If she runs up her own cards and this comes to D....then we both share the debt! I explained to her today that we don't have any money to spend...that's why I told her we couldn't go to Vegas a month ago. Unfortunatley that was a last ditch effort to save us and I didn't see it damn it! Oh to see things as clearly then as now!

If I were you, I would quickly expose, and if she moves out, quickly file for legal separation so that her debt is her own.

Is that how that works? After legal separation, any debts from that point forward are individual? Am I reading that right?

She moved out immediately after she brought up the ILYBINILWU 5 1/2 weeks ago. So, we've been apart the whole time except for a night or two.

I haven't had a chance to get into my legal options yet. I don't know if I should beat her to the punch? Divorce, annullment (although may not be grounds for it), separation....not sure.

At the same time, I haven't had a chance to plan-A very well, so I'd hate to jump right into plan B.

If anyone has any good legal advice.....bring it on!
Thanks
ILA

The other thing that sucks financially is that I hear from OMW that OM's grandma is on her death bed and as soon as she dies, OM will get her house (paid off...no mortgage, rent, nothing). You know they will be living there together. I guess that's better than them living in an apartment where they DO have to pay rent though....maybe she'll keep paying our mortgage with me and not default on it or force us to sell our house.

What do I do if W tries to force me to sell our house (both our names are on it and we pay equally on mortgage). I've been dreading that b/c I figured I'd have to go along with it and put it on the market. With the current market we'd stand to lose $100k b/c we only bought about 1-1/2 yrs. ago. I can't afford it on my own, and I sure don't want her to just stop paying and we default, I don't want her to file bankruptcy, but I'm not sure if I have any other legal rights if she insists we sell for a loss????

Stolen from another thread, this post by sdguy...

Thanks SD....I live in California now....but grew up in KS too!

Wow, this is already getting depressing......just thinking about my W and OM drving to Vegas right now and God knows what else for the next 3 days. I went to the gym for 3 1/2 hours to try to get my mind off it. Trying to surround myself with family and friends as much as possible.

I hope OM does something stupid and shows some bad habits in Vegas....but I'm sure W is too foggy to notice anyway.

When she gets back I guess I'll be as nice as I can be and start plan A-ing my butt off. I think I might try to go to W's head principal's house tomorrow to either give him a letter or talk to him if he will take the time. Assist. principal isn't calling me back so I think he wants to stay out of things.

Pray for me everyone, this is going to be a tough couple of days!!!! Thanks all
ILA

Well, I pulled the trigger today on exposure to W's workplace. I had left an email and voice message for assist. pricipal last week but got no response. So, today I found the address for head principal and wrote a letter to him explaining everything.

Both assist. and head principals attended our wedding 6 months ago with their wives, so I felt more confident that they might be a source of support.

Head principal was home and answered the door. I first gave him a thank you note for our wedding gift....which we just still hadn't gotten mailed out to people. I followed that with an explanation that W and I were having some big problems, and although he may not want to get involved or hear about it all, that I felt it did impact her work and involved another employee as well.

He really did seem like he wanted to get involved at all, quite honestly. He was nice about things, but seemed very non-committal.....so I didn't take a lot of time to try and tell him anything. I just gave him the letter and asked him to read it if he wanted to. I told him I thought he had a right to know, given the fact they were at our wedding and the fact that he was W's boss.

I've got to believe that his curiosity will eventually get him to read the letter, but beyond that I don't know that I'll get much response from him or anyone at the school.

But, at least I can say I tried and took the steps necessary to expose to the most important person at the work place. I guess that's all I can do.

Spent all weekend (with my mother who is visiting this week) having dinner with W's family members. All are still very supportive of me and we are all working as a team. W will still be in Vegas w/ OM through tomorrow as far as I know, but I will let her contact me whenever she's good and ready.

I'm going to try and start plan-A'ing my butt off. Oh yeah, also saw our MC (we went to once) for a 1-on-1 Saturday. I simply explained the situtation and the A and she pretty much agreed w/ everything I told her I was learning from this great website/books/you great people. That gave me more confidence that she agreed with it all. Heck, she only charged me for 15 minutes b/c she said she felt like she didn't tell me anything....just agreed with me the whole time!! MC is Dr. Pat Allen....some of you may have heard of her....she's written several books and been on lots of TV shows too....she's pretty good.

Oddly enough, the only thing she disagreed on was the exposure to the workplace! She thought that the more they were together, the quicker the A would end......I don't necessarily buy into that b/c I see it as a safe haven for the A.....that's why I went through with the letter to principal.

Thanks for the support everyone, and we'll see how the workplace exposure works out!! I need to get prepared for my rebuttal if W finds out!!

You just gave him an "out". If he appears to do nothing about the situation and you inquire why, he can always claim that he didn't feel comfortable opening the letter you gave him, when he might just be trying to avoid getting involved in the situation.

I think you may have dropped the ball on exposure here, but luckily it's one that you can easily pick back up. Give him a day or two, then call and ask if he has had an opportunity to read the letter.

Well, ILA ... I'm gone for 2 days and you revert right back to wienieland.

You call the WW to apologize because SHE is having an A, and then, in effect, give her YOUR BLESSING to go off with the OM for a weekend in Vegas. GREAT JOB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then you wuss out at the principal's ... what's this "give him a letter BS"??? Man, your WW is having an A with a co-worker and all you do is give him a letter and WALK AWAY. Why aren't you angry ... why didn't you SHOUT OUT to the principal ... "They're having a workplace A right under your nose, what are you going to do about that?"

I would really like to help you (and so would Tyk), but at some point, you've got to do something to help yourself. When you reach that point, let us know.

When you stop being afraid, you will start seeing some success. Stop giving people ways out of doing what you want and need them to do. Maybe the principal is a stand up guy and will realize that he pretty much HAS to do something. However, you have certainly left him with no sense of urgency regarding the situation. You should have come away from that meeting with the knowledge that he was going to do SOMETHING! Anyhow, I think he will, if he's a smart man, he will anyhow. Be ready for your WW to go absolutely apeshit at any time as a result of this. Don't react, don't apologize, stand firm and tell her "I believe in our marriage and want to work with you to make it happy for both of us."

You know what, my Rev, I'm not buying it. I appreciate your tough love, but I AM standing up for myself damnit. I don't know why you guys think I"m afraid....I don't feel that way. I know I have nothing to lose! I don't think you can't understand the situation without being present in it. There's no way I'm going to corner the principal of her school and try to drag him into my whole story in front of his kids when it seemed like he was in no mood to talk about anything anyway....you really think if I came barging into his house and came off as some raving lunatic that he would ever buy into my side of things? The letter said EVERYTHING that I could possibly want to tell him, and I'm sure will do a better job of it than me trying to spit it out. I DID tell him that I was extremely upset, that he had a responsibility to know what was going on, and that I trusted that he would do the right thing and read the letter. I don't think walking into a near-strangers house and telling him what he HAS to do is going to get me anywhere, man. I feel like I got my point across....maybe I didn't really express that in my last post.

Also, I didn't give my W permission to go to Vegas.....just the opposite. I flat out told her how p.o.'d I was about it...I simply told her I "regretted how we'd handled our conversation the night before" and that we had to continue to be civil so we could work through this. She knows how mad I was about Vegas. I was just trying to lay the groundwork for my plan A work that I'm going to be in....if she went off all weekend thinking I was an [censored], how is that going do me any good....that's just going to be a continual drain on her Bank, whether I'm talking to her or not....it's like automatic withdrawal!

You guys, I AM standing up to people and I"m fighthing harder than you realize. I've got everyone in my corner....I don't know that I can do alot more w/ exposure than what i've done, believe me. My W has seen my efforts and of course is upset by them....just like Lori said she was for a while when you were fighting for her. But I also know they are sinking in and having an impact.

I feel like much more of this and it's just continual LB's and driving her further away. NOBODY is changing her mind or ending the A right now....she is buried that deep in it. I finally accept that this is going to take lots of time. I'm ready to have no more R&A talks and simply go full blown plan-A to work on ME. I will continue to cut her off if any talk of the OM comes up and let her know it is not acceptible. Somehow I have to start rebuilding my Love Bank balance and I know that isn't going to happen as long as I continue to push as hard as I have.

Thoughts?

ILA,

I'm sorry you can't/won't acknowledge just how poorly you're handling this whole thing.

I also understand that some people just can't communicate with some others effectively ... and that appears to be where we are. Therefore, it is possible that I may drive you away if I continue posting to you, because I am not the type to just pat you on the back and tell you "everything will be just fine if you just hold on a little longer".

So, I'll back out of this thread and let Tyk and the others "attempt" to help you, but you seem intent on disregarding ALL of the advice that you've been given.

I'll leave you with one parting thought: "The sooner you realize that there is nothing special about you, your WW, her A, the OM, or the whole damn situation, the better off you will be, and may finally screw up your courage enough to do something to put a stop to this very garden variety affair, rather than just making excuses to justify your inactions."

Good Luck to you!!!

My Rev, that's not what I'm getting at. Trust me, I feel the advice that you and Lori and Tyk have given me has been a tremendous help. I hope you will continue to help me out...it is very much appreciated.

I'm trying to do everything that I'm told.....but it seems like everytime I do something, I'm then told I did it wrong! I know that up until this weekend I was engaging and reacting WAY too much.....but I've come to the conclusion that I MUST and WILL stop that now. Ok, maybe I DO need to be MORE direct with her principal...but how else can I try to end an A that doesn't have any intentions of being ended?? I don't know that there is anyone left to expose to...I've talked to them all and continue to follow up as often as possible to let them know I'm still fighting and asking them to help my fight.

I'm getting feedback that I shouldn't go to plan B just 2 weeks into d-day, and I feel I need to plan A for a while b/c I haven't done a good job of it yet. The time spent improving myself has been noticed by W, but I've been too busy talking R & A that I haven't gotten anywhere...probably just done more damage. That's why I am now finally understanding (thanks to you guys), and now want to go silent on that talk, and just do plan A stuff.

What else do I do to try and stop the A though (besides more pressure on principal)? Like I said, I've got OMW in my corner and she's applying pressure from her side...I've got EVERY friend and family member of my W on my side of things too and they are trying to help.

The pressure is out there, but W and OM are trying to go and hide in their own little world. She's not living at home so I can't really control what she does can I?? I know the isolation will start to wear on them, but right now it doesn't seem that anyone can break the A....only some time and them getting tired of each other.

What am I missing here, man? I DO want your help and I DO want my W back more than anything in the world......I guess I just don't understand how much I'm doing wrong in your eyes because I'm trying to (at least now I am) carry out the plan.