Thanks for the input.....very good reminders JJ and AP. You're exactly right about the R talk being a LB. For the first 2-3 weeks after A discovered, I did WAY too much of that.....I just hadn't learned and understood the PLAN well. She's even told me "there's NO chance for any future b/w us b/c of how you've handled this whole situation". I know that's BS and Fogspeak, but she's still telling me just how much the R talk bothers her.....it IS a big LB right now.

I'll admit too, that will be the most difficult thing to avoid. Just knowing myself, I will be tempted on many occassions to jump into that talk and try to "convince her" that she's better off with me.......I'll do my best to stay strong and avoid that though.

If I had to chose the top 3 EN's for WW I think it would be Affection, Communication, SF. I see now that none of those were present over the last couple of months and that's what led to the loss of "in love" and her running into the A. That seems pretty clear to me.

I'm going to try to meet EN for Communication (although it will be difficult to do so AND avoid R talk....but I'll try my best). I don't know about Affection....she may not allow that much b/c her defenses are so high. SF seems like it's way out of the picture right now. But, she actually told me "I don't have any desire to sleep with you anymore....my feelings are purely platonic (she's said platonic to several people in her family). The fact that she keeps saying that makes me wonder if maybe she really does have those feeling still but is just concentrating on repressing them. Does any of that make sense or am I out to lunch?

I'm torn right now on how much I should contact WW. JJ, what you said about only being able to plan A as much as she allows it........that seems RIGHT ON TARGET. That's what I'm seeing. She's acknowledged my efforts recently and she sees I'm trying, but she doesn't want to let it affect her....she's got her battle armor on. In my attempts to communicate, I feel like I want to call her or ask her out....but do you think that will only LB on her? Should I wait for her to contact me instead? It's only been 4 days since we saw each other and 2 days since speaking.....but I already miss her voice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It almost feels like I'm doing a pseudo plan B (since she's away) while I'm also trying to plan A..........this is where I get confused!

If you lean too hard on someone leaning the other way, you will fall down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep your distance and allow her to be drawn to you.

Ultimately, the goal is to reach recovery, and establish a marriage where 2 independent people lean equally on each other.

Right now, you are in Plan A, filling her EN's as the opportunity presents, living life proudly and independently, and letting OM "try" to meet all her needs.

You will start seeing her making excuses to get a "fix" of you, by phone calls, or "needing" to get some of her stuff.

Play it cool!

For Valentines Day... A long stemmed rose with a framed picture of you and her, the most recent, or memorable picture you can think of!

I understand SD. Seems like right now she's content that I've backed off a bit so she's not going to call me for a few days (mostly only time she called before was to fight or confront me about who I exposed to). She was going to come over this weekend to sit down and see what bills we could split up, but she claims she has to work on Sat. so probably can't come over this weekend. Ironically enough, I think this is the weekend OMW has custody of their child....hmmm.

Anyway, I'll heed your advice and try to let her come to me.

As for V-Day....I like your suggestion. That's sort of what I was leaning towards...something simple that reminds her that I care and is a memory of our past. Thought I might even make a little picture book with several photos and maybe a poem or something that reflects on some good memories.

Thanks SD

A good thing to remember when conversation is someone's top need, is to be a good listener. The best conversationalists always listen more than they talk, and when they do talk it is to ask a question pertaining to what the other person is talking about or to clarify.

This is especially true when someone is trying to get away from you as in a wayward.

Just listen to her because the more you talk the more likely you are to get on the relationship tangent and all you will do is reinforce her justification that you are selfish and all you care about is yourself.

If you do have to be the one to call her, call when you have a reason to and be gracious, meaning be the first to say, "well, I won't keep you, I'll let you get going"...

In looking at your sig line I wonder what ended her first marriage. Already leaving her second marriage I would say that she operates from feelings and not intellect, so this is what you are going to have to appeal to.

And remember this is a covert thing, this feeling stuff.

She will want to come to you and talk to you the more you just listen. Someone who listens to someone else makes THEM feel good about themself.

So LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN...make it about her.

NO relationship talk unless she initiates and then you just listen and empathize.

Hope that helps ILA...when you are feeling somewhat obsessed, when the attachment you feel towards her is ruling your actions...it is very difficult, but you can do it.

I think her top need is affection, but number 2 is probably convo. I'm not that talkative usually and AM the listener. I've always felt that's what makes me a good frined/companion is my ability to listen.

Over the last 2 months, though, WW never wants to talk at all so I've been leading conversations....which is not like me...and which, I agree, is making me sound self-serving (she even has told me that).

I know this now and recently have tried to pull back. Only problem is, if I don't talk then we are just going to sit there in silence! I know she hates the fact that I'm never "talkative" on the phone (I'm fine in person just never know what to say on the phone for some reason...i think that's sort of a guy thing). OM is apparently VERY talkative and I think she loves that.

So, yeah, it's confusing....but I'm trying to do what you say JJ and listen as much as possible....but I'm just listening to silence!


Like I said above....you're absolutely right about this and I realize it now and am correcting it as much as i can.


I did have to call her last night b/c one of our 2 cats is on his deathbed with a urinary tract blockage that he's been batting off and on for months. He's alreay had a surgery but just isn't going to beat this.....we've both agreed that he needs to be put out of his misery. Problem came back again a couple days ago and he's not getting over it this time. I called last night to tell her I think we need to put him down tonight. She said "I've got plans Friday night and have to work Sat. morning".....can you believe that!!! So I said I'd try to wait 'till Sat. morning to call her and see how cat is doing.

I told her she needs to be present if we make the decision to put him down....and she seemed to agree, but still was more concerned with her 'plans'. She wants me to take care of it, but I won't let her out of the responsibility if I can help it.....of course I'm not going to make the cat suffer just to make a point to WW though...so we'll have to see.

We didn't fight about things, it was all good conversation. I asked quickly about her work, told her about my work. Then I asked if she was getting enough sleep. I told her that I'd been stressed and I knew she was equally that way...and I just hoped she was taking care of her health b/c I didn't want to see her get sick.

That was it, short and sweet. She was in an OK mood, nothing great....but at least no R talk or LB's. yea!


I guess EVERYONE hated her 1st H. She was only 18 too so it was different. I guess he was EXTREMELY controlling and everyone was happy to see her leave him. Totally opposite in my case! But, she was already seeing someone else before the D so THAT is a definite pattern unfortuantely. Through IC and MC I think I understand why she is in this place right now....combination of past issues, addictions, feelings taking over, etc. You're right though....she's very intelligent and thought based usually, but when she gets to this point she's working completely off feelings. My W is a much different person than my WW who is running solely off feelings and emotions right now. I hope the pratical, intelligent W surfaces sometime soon!

Thanks JJ

I just found out she's going to Disneyland tonight....I'm sure with OM and OM's daughter. That's a punch in the gut.

Now I think they are starting to introduce the daughter to my WW and win her over with stuff like Disneyland....yikes! Maybe they feel since OMW has given up this week that it's time to start bringing the daughter around?

WW and OM have their whole life planned out already. She claims that this is her soulmate and she's never felt anything before like what she feels for him. They FLAT OUT BELIEVE THIS...both of them! These feelings run REALLY deep between them. I read over and over that this is fog talk.....but man it's hard to see them EVER having this relationship end! They are both intelligent people and are convinced that this is the RIGHT THING for them both. I just wish he would do something stupid to make WW wake up....but I don't know that he will. I can totally see them "working out" together.

I guess this is where my sit. differs from that of TMTS for example. How do you combat an A that you don't think will end? Stick to the plans is the only way I guess right?


Ugh! This sucks.

Is OM officially divorced yet? If not, OMW could file a court order keeping your WW away from her daughter.

I feel like I've just gotten a sign from above.....I mentioned my WW said she'd wait 2 months until D to "see if anything changes". Last night I was looking into some of the coaching and events that MB sponsors. I looked into the MB weekend.

Guess what is happening 2 months...TO THE DAY...from when my WW said she'd wait on D? You guessed it, the MB weekend.

Here's the spooky part....it is in Anaheim, CA...about 2 miles from where we live! I don't think I could have had more of a golden opportunity placed in my lap than this!

Now, here's where I need your advice.......I doubt if my WW will be open to doing this anytime soon. I have 1 month to enroll for that weekend and I don't see her coming around by then.

Even if she hasn't left the OM and even if she doesn't want to work on our M.......if there's any way to get her to attend that weekend with me, do you think it will be beneficial? I don't care about the $$, there is no pricetag on saving my M to her. I sure feel like it would help....her biggest thing right now is that "my love for you is gone and it will never come back" That's what she's convinced of. Hearing about how we CAN recover has GOT to do some good don't you think?

I don't know how to talk her into this though. I sure don't want to push this on her yet, but I've only got a few weeks to enroll too. Thoughts on this?

How can I pass up on opportunity like this....right in my own backyard?

Thanks
ILA

OM's daughter may have a clue that she's "giving up" her real mommy for your WW, and she may not take to well to that. Better yet, she'll be openly rude about it, and cause strife between WW and OM.

The more strife between them, the better.

If you know for a fact this is taking place, you should let the OM's W know it. Then it's up to her to do as she sees fit, but I bet she won't be too happy about it. Have your facts straight.

On the MB weekend, IMHO, if the A is still active, it would be a waste of your money. My W was still an active wayward and we spent $$$ on MC, and she was so fogged she couldn't give the MC a truthful response about anything. It was all a waste of time and money.

IF, something happens and the A falls apart and NC is established before your last minute drop-dead date to register, then it's something you should POJA with your (F)WW.

And you posted "WW and OM have their whole life planned out already. She claims that this is her soulmate and she's never felt anything before like what she feels for him. They FLAT OUT BELIEVE THIS...both of them! These feelings run REALLY deep between them. I read over and over that this is fog talk.....but man it's hard to see them EVER having this relationship end! They are both intelligent people and are convinced that this is the RIGHT THING for them both."

Purely fog. All waywards feel exactly like this. Stay out of her chaos, and repel the fog talk!

Thanks SD....deep down I have to know that is fog talk.... but sometimes the thought that maybe they are meant for each other still creeps in my mind. I just need to hear it from somebody to make me feel better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree on the waste of money. I haven't even given MC another thought, although I'm doing IC and my WW claims she will also (she is seeing someone from her Aunt's church I know)....but I know MC is a waste right now.

As for the MB weekend though....she doesn't have to give answers or talk to anyone about our R......she just has to sit and listen for 2 days. Don't you think that might be money well spent? Can't that surely cut through a little fog? If not right then, at least down the road?

If you are not concerned about the $$, and you think there's a chance she might attend, you never know what seeds might be planted that will help you in your efforts to save your marriage.

No seeds, no impact... your call <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ironically, I just noticed the quote at the bottom of your profile, SD.........maybe that's what I'm doing here...trying to spend money to buy time? :P

I'd like to see what some of the other posters think on the MB weekend question. That's what makes these forums great...!

Yes, please, please!!! Will this do any good even if WW is still in a fog and doesn't want to work on M yet? I don't see this as MC as much as just a 'training seminar' if you will.

Thoughts?

Okay, SD and ILA. Here's what I think...

2 months, or even a month 2 sign up, is plenty of time 2 get advice from the experts - by calling either Steve or Jennifer. Get a coaching arrangement started. If there's any chance of getting your W enticed in2 participating, they are the ones 2 do it.

I have a fair amount of experience with the whole MC/IC thing from the first several months after d-day.

First, I went 2 an IC at work - she was great, and had nearly all the right answers for ME at the time.

2nd, I went 2 another IC who she recommended, away from work, who had some good thoughts and some not so good thoughts (he ac2ally believed in "measured honesty" - which is the same as "measured deceit" and even told me that if my W had come 2 him on her own before d-day, he would have advised that she not tell me of the A if I hadn't found out about it on my own). I ended up simply stopping those sessions after a 2ple months.

3rd, and not long after the 2 ICers I went 2, my W agreed we should do MC 2gether. We have an HMO, and so our sessions were only 5 bucks each visit. ...and worth every penny! I'm being sarcastic with that, of course. We seldom met more than once every 3 weeks, the MC clearly had no experience with infidelity (she was a social worker, not a therapist or coach), and she had no session-2-session stru2re at all. I wasn't disappointed in the least when we stopped seeing her, as we weren't getting anywhere.

I had one session with SH, but it was 7 months after d-day. I wish I had called a lot sooner than I did. Because, if you're going 2 hit the A head-on, which is in a sense what you're doing by working with the MB plans, you want someone who knows what order 2 address what issues in. The Harleys are the obvious experts in doing that, because they authored the methods you're using here.

I had several sessions over the next year or so with an MB-trained coach not affiliated with the Harleys. Those were productive 2 a point. That point being that my W never wanted on board with the MB methods at all. Also, I had gotten in2 a much more stable place emotionally, very much with the help of the personal coaching, and so I stopped the sessions.

My W had a 2ple of ICs at our HMO. I know very little about whether they were truly productive or not. Which is probably 2 say that they weren't, at least from the perspective of saving our marriage.

Nevertheless, save our marriage we did.

2 sum up, I'd have 2 say that early on coaching with the Harleys is the best idea. I wouldn't plan on registering for the weekend without their help in enticing your WW 2 participate - assuming she will (frankly, I think it's probably going 2 be 2 soon, but you should ask them).

MCing is a waste of money without both partners interested in fixing the M. IC isn't as much of a waste, but it can still be one, if you're focusing on saving your marriage on your own - you may spend all your time and money trying 2 guess what your WW is thinking and doing. But if it's 2 make yourself a better person, FOR yourself (not anyone else, particularly your WW), then it can be productive. But early on, it's 2 easy for the BS 2 get socked in2 their own fog (there is such a thing, as you'll no doubt discover, if you haven't already).

Persevere,
-ol' 2long

Thanks for the input 2long...I must say I tend to agree with you on all this. The problem is, right now I can't get WW to even consider any MC, Harley's (although I haven't asked), and likely not the weekend.

It does seem like 2 soon to get her to commit to the weekend thing....but it's right in our backyard and seems like such a golden opportunity and all.

I just got back from having to put our cat to sleep. WW didn't even come with b/c she had to work this morning. She has called to ask how it went and I was pretty emotional still. (I suggest never putting a pet down less than a month after d-day!) I just told her I really need her to come home tonight...just b/c of what I just had to do ON MY OWN! Her foggy response....I don't know if I feel comfortable doing that....see, she doesn't even want to consider working on ANYTHING presently.

If she calls me back later and does decide to come over....it will be tough to avoid any R talk with the emotional state we will likely both be in b/c of talking about the pet. I'll have to see how it goes.

I would like to get her to speak w/ Harley's but she's so defiant that I think it might not do any good.

ILA:

The differences in our sitches aren't as important as the similarities at this time:

I've been married now for over 32 years, whereas you've been married 2 your W for less than a year.

So what?

What's so similar, and scripted, is how YOU feel now, and how I remember I felt "back then." No difference.

Pets, family, Model A Fords (okay, maybe you're not in2 those) - doesn't matter what it is. You will be blamed for not "giving enough" of yourself in whatever area is being used 2 justify at the moment - or your feelings will be disregarded in ways that you would never have imagined possible - like the seemingly uncaring atti2de about the putty tat. (we have cats 2, and though they've never been "mine", I've loved them anyway).

Try not 2 be so concerned about whether she agrees 2 participate in MC or (better, by far) MARRIAGE COACHING, and focus on getting yourself in2 an emotionally healthy state of mind, because her A needs 2 burn out before she can participate in any meaningful way, if that ever happens.

Right now, I can accept and understand that you're at a point where you need 2 read and internalize the affair-related survival publications like SAA. There are a number of others that are excellent as well, like Shirley Glass' "Not Just Friends", and others by M. Scott Peck and Frank Pittman (an interesting character in his own right, and a great read). Further down the personal recovery track, I'd highly recommend David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage". It's kind of disjointed in some ways, but the introductory chapters and the one on building your own crucible are excellent from a personal standpoint. Getting a little more esoteric, perhaps, are "The Power of NOW" by Eckhardt Tolle, which is mostly about personal spiri2al health than relationship-building but one of the most useful things I ever read - and I'm an atheist.

Hey, my daughter used to work at Disneyland. We live nearby.

-ol' 2long

Mourn the loss of the cat 2gether, as a couple, with no R talks. The death of a beloved pet may draw her out of the fog a bit. You might get a glimpse of your "former" wife, before the aliens abducted her.

Not the time to push her away, IMHO.

Try not to use this to "guilt" her into anything. Yes it hurts, even more so that she couldn't be bothered. Just don't expect her to have any empathy in her wayward state. I'm so sorry for your loss.

(((ILA)))

Well, you're all exactly right....WW is not coming over today. She called back and we talked briefly about the cat. I told her how hard it was to do alone...especially with all of the "other stuff" going on. She acknowledged and said she was sorry. But that's her answer to everything...I'm sorry...but she thinks that cures everything!

I asked what plans she had today and she said she didn't know. I asked again if she wanted to come over tonight, just simply b/c of the fact I just put down our pet and it would be nice if she was home for a while. She told me she just didn't want to be here, that she doesn't consider this her home any more.....ouch.

She said she just can't be friends and hang out with me b/c she knows I've got "alterior motives". I said, yeah, I guess I can admit to that. Sure I want to save our marriage, but I also understand the way you feel....there's a difference. I said the fact that we are still husband and wife makes me feel that we should still try to find SOME time for each other. Her response: we are only husband and wife b/c I haven't filed for D yet. I'm with somebody else and I can't be friends with you until you understand that.

That's pretty much it. I didn't argue it or push any further R talk...just said I understand her feelings and I know I'm not going to do or say anything to change that right now. I told her I'd let her go and we could talk again soon. That's all.

This is so difficult b/c she is just SO DAMN defiant. I don't know if this is typical or not. I do know that this is her history. She makes her OWN decision (never a mutual, well-communicated one), says she's done, moves on to the next guy, and NEVER looks back. This is her M.O. this is her history.

It's like SHE's plan B'ing ME. I'm trying to put my faith into a solid plan A for a month or two, but it's really hard today to keep my head up. She is just adamant that we are done and her life is with somebody else.

Thought the cat thing might open her up a bit....but it didn't seem to phase her except that she acknowledged that I was taking it hard and once again she "was sorry".

This SUCKS!