Yes, but the thing that still doesn't make sense to me is that she "moved out and moved on" immediately. A couple days after she first said ANYTHING to me, she had "moved on" in her mind. That's the part I can't understand, can't buy in to.....that's probably WHY I keep holding on so much.



Oh, I don't know about that. Every single day is a hard day. I probably don't let on as much. Some days are just almost debilitating and I can't even function.....that's what I mean by the bad days. I can't really say that any day has been "good"!


Damn, I was hoping I'd get the answer along with the question <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That's the million dollar question right now for me. Everyone pretty much tells me I need to detach and move on. But, I just can't. Maybe that's just who I am. Maybe that's my obsessive personality. Maybe I'm afraid of being left alone and trying to start over. I try to be honest about all of these.....but it always comes back to how much I love her.....and knowing that she, recently at least, loved me that much too.

It's all too sudden, too harsh, too unexplainable. I know it's driven by the affair first and foremost.....and that I just can't accept for some reason. I can't accept this situation as the truth. I want to find an email she sent to her brother.....maybe you can tell me how much of it sounds like the truth to you and how much is fog speak.

This is an email from WW to her brother (not blood brother, but grew up together "like a brother" and are VERY close). He and his whole family have cut her off almost completely and WW was trying to get him to talk to her and explain things to him......this is essentially the same line she has told to everyone else including me.

The story doesn't change a whole lot. This is her mantra....she really, truly believes in these words right now and this is how she justifies the whole situation.

Do you see any truth in this or does it all sound like fog speak to you:

"hey (BROTHER)...(ILA) made it pretty clear as did your mom that u guys didn't want
to talk to me and that I was not welcome in the house...that's why I was
letting you all make the first move...I have talked to (OTHER BROTHER) and that's it.
If you would like to get together to discuss that would be great. know
that the choice I made to start seeing someone else was made independently
of (ILA)...we have been having the same issues for the past 5 years, we just
chose not to share that with anyone which is why this all seems so out of
the blue for most people. The fact that things came to a head 6 months
after the wedding is inconsequential...the issues have always been there.
He is willing to work on things, and I have already expressed that I
understand that, however the point in a relationship where you have finally
worked up the courage to actually leave someone, you have mentally 'checked
out' and no amount of counseling or therapy is going to help that.
I love you and the rest of the family very much...this is especially hard
because I feel like I can't even talk to you...YOU the one who I have
ALWAYS been able to talk to about things. You know I love you and would
never do anything to jeopardize my relationship with you. If you feel that
my actions have somehow done this then I am sorry, this is not about anyone
else but me and (ILA). I understand how the family feels affected by this,
but bad things happen, I fell out of love, I wasn't happy, and he stopped
trying...the willingness to try no is irrelevant in my eyes. I still care
about him and his well being, just the love we once had has shifted to a
purely platonic feeling...it sucks, I know but again not a lot I can do
about it.

It hurts me a lot to think that you are questioning my loyalty and advice
that we have shared over the years...there have been many times that you
were the ONLY reason that I have stayed so close to the family...you're
parents and I have drifted apart off and on and the twins too, but you and
I have always been close. I love you (BROTHER) and I totally understand your
frustration with the situation, you don't have to like it, or even accept
it, but its happened and it just needs to be dealt with. I am a grown women
capable of making my own grown up decisions, you might not think I know
what I am doing or have done, but I am fully aware and am accepting all of
the consequences."

So, this is essentially what I'm battling against. If I could sum up the whole situation it's basically right here in this email. This is what WW is COMPLETELY focused on and why she won't even think about trying to work on us. She really has "checked out" emotionally and can't even allow herself to feel ANY emotions for me or think about our past or future. Could this stuff be true, partially true, or is it all just B.S. ??? Due to the fact that I'm so involved, I tend to waiver back and forth in how much of this I believe to be TRUTH. I think I'm too close to it all to see it objectively.

BTW, the talk about our "problems for 5+ years" is pretty much B.S. Nothing more than typical relationship stuff. There are no problems that should cause her to walk away so abruptly.....so I know that is re-writing history.

This was written the first week of February. I didn't want to post this for a while b/c I was afraid she might get on MB and see it. But at this point I don't think it really matters.
Anyway, thoughts anyone???
Thanks
ILA

I'm not going to read the email right now, because I want to keep going on this line of thought first.

Now you made a decision to try and recover this marriage, I am not stating my own opinions about that anymore. I will say that trying to figure her out is a complete waste of time. It is a pointless, fruitless diversion to what you need to do if what you say is true...that you want to try and recover this marriage. I believe your WW is just being true to herself, her past actions tell us this is true. That is enough for me.

Now with that said, I am going to help you get a plan and work one.



By having a plan with goals listing the desired outcome of each goal. Thia is what makes the plan and the goals measureble. And they must be measureable to know if you are reaching them or not.

What is your Plan A? What are your measerable goals during this Plan A? What is the desired result of your Plan A?

I want you to get a notebook and start devising your plan. And a most important thing to remember throughout your plan, is that you do not base your actions on her actions/reactions/nonactions/nonreactions. IF after a measerable amount of time, the plan needs to be modified you will modify it...but usually this is not done.

You start with the end result in mind, and do up a list of goals that will help get you to that end result.

Now keeping in mind that there are two parts to this plan. A and B. Go ahead and devise your Plan A.


If you will do that ILA, we will work with you on this plan. I for sure will, and I am very good at plans. It's about the only thing I understand on this site, if you want to know the truth. The importance of plans.

I have to leave now ILA, but please do this.

This is what will keep you sane, and give you the best chance at recovery.

Advice taken, JJ. You're so right. I've been trying to float along "doing plan A stuff" without really having a set Plan with set goals and desired results.

Not sure why I didn't realize that....it's so simple and basic!

I guess I've been so busy talking to people, reading books, reading this website, talking to counselors, etc.etc........that I haven't stopped and made time to create a roadmap to success.

Thanks. I'll get to work on that, JJ.

How's this for just completely f*#king up a good thing? I was REALLY struggling today and ended up sending WW this email (after much debate). Definite moment of weakness that got the best of me:

"Hey.

Sorry to bug you, but I was wondering if you are free tonight for a while? I really feel the need to talk to you.

I'm having a pretty rough day, for whatever reason. Can't really explain why, just part of the ups and downs of all of this I guess. I can talk to other people all I want, but it's not the same. I need to hear your voice.

I don't know where you're living, what you're doing, etc. Don't know when or if I can/should call you......and I hate that. You are the one person that means the world to me and I don't even know if I should call you....what the ******...this sucks.

I'm supposed to go to the gym tonight and would be home around 9:00....was thinking maybe we could talk then? I know you're going to Reno and probably don't want to be up too late though either. Then again, if you're free and want to meet up earlier and/or talk face to face that would be terrific too....I can change my plans. Just let me know if either is an option.

Baby, I'm trying my best not to bother you and let both of us have some "peace" but sometimes I really need you to be there for me. Thank you for understanding.

I love you
(ILA)"

So much for standing strong, showing her I'm doing ok, and not pushing the issue, huh? Geesh, I'm weak right now!

She hasn't responded yet....don't know if she hasn't checked email or is just avoiding this altogether......wow, am I stupid or what?

It's obvious.....I'm pretty screwed up this week!!!!!! Do I need to backpeddle from this if she calls me or is it ok for her to know I'm having a tough day and "need" her?? Part of the carrot and stick is "stick"ing her with the truth about how much pain she is causing me......but this is probably over the top, huh? :P

Well, WW called me and we talked as each of us was driving home from work. I admitted it had been a difficult day and I simply wanted to hear her voice (as I'd said in earlier email). I explained that she's always been there for me with a reassuring and compassionate voice, and even though it's not so reassuring anymore...it's still her voice and sometimes I still need to hear it. I tried my best not to be too much of a wuss, and for the most part I think I did ok.....but at the same time I felt ok in letting her know that this is hard on me. If nothing else, hopefully it played to her emotions a little bit and raised the guilt factor some...who knows. We had a really good, VERY calm conversation. Talked a lot about where we both were in this, how we both felt. I talked about how I was handling things (pretty well I said) but that some days are still tough b/c this is very painful. Told her how much I care, how much I worry about her. Didn't push her on our future b/c she won't even hear of it.....just tried to plant a few questions in her head if nothing else.

She isn't waivering, still insists she just simply fell out of love with me, got married for wrong reasons, etc. I tried to mention that I was upset she kept blaming our problems and that if OM didn't exist that we wouldn't find ourselves here. That must strike a nerve b/c that's the only time she got defensive over the 30 minute discussion. And she's gotten defensive every other time I've ever brought it up too. I think deep down she knows that this is about OM and nothing else, but she won't and can't admit it.....she's spent too much time coming up with other "reasons" for validation that when I mention this TRUTH it puts her on the defensive immediately.....that sort of tells me something. Things like that convince me that first and foremost this is a typical A situation.

Anyway, bad part is she's moving in with OM soon. Hasn't "officially" done it but admitted that she's been staying there most nights since his grandma died 2 weeks ago and he inherited the house. I pretty much knew that but it's still hard to hear her say it.

She had the nerve to tell me she didn't feel right about moving in until we'd filed for divorce. I think I responded that her moving in didn't matter to me.....it was no differnt than any of the other things she's decided to do. Unfortunately, I think she took that to mean I was "approving of it"......not exactly what I meant by it. Anyway, she claims she's had almost 3 months to think about things now and she feels confident she's doing the right thing for her. She wants to get D and sell our house eventually and live this life with OM......not much doubt in her mind right now.

Not really sure how to combat this. I think I need to really lay out a plan A complete w/ goals and objectives like JJ suggested in her last post. I need to make sure I've given plan A a good run and achieved what I need to. But, with her moving in with OM.....maybe it's time to go plan B. I have to draw the line somewhere and that seems like as good a place as any.

Doesn't seem like much hope left, with her moving on like she is. But, deep down I know this isn't real. Someday she'll come around, I'm convinced of that.....but whether or not it's too late is the big question. I HAVE to learn to detach.....this is killing me!

The desired result of Plan A is to attract your WS back.

While trying to bust up the affair and protecting yourself financially.

It seems you have done what you can as far as exposing the affair to try and bust it up, and as far as you can on protecting your finances.

So now you work on the attraction factor with the hopes of leaving her with a good impression of you.

You have identified the areas she has complaints that actually have merit, and are taking steps to address those in yourself. (this is something you do by actually changing those behaviors, not something you try to tell her about).

Avoid any relationship talk when you have conversations with her in the future. This is very important. NO relationship talks initiated by you, and if she initiates them say as little as possible, only listen.

I'd say go to Plan B right now too, except for the fact that I don't think you can stay dark, and because I don't think you have lost enough love for her. And I think a botched up Plan B will make you look even weaker to her. I just don't think you are strong enough yet. Cymanca says you only get one chance to do a great Plan B.

How does a plan B fall in line with D proceedings. Sounds like WW still wants to file in about another month. Does plan B go along with D? We have 6 month minimum in California once filed. Should plan B coincide with this? Through D there is a lot to do in terms of making decisions....so we would have to communicate. Neither one of us can afford getting lawyers involved....and quite frankly there's not enough in our sit. to justify lawyers....pretty simple D case really. He!!, she just wants to walk away....pretty much said I can have most everything we own.

Her moving in with OM seems like a natural line in the sand. D filing would even be a more distinct line in the sand. But you're right, I don't know how I can stay dark through all of that. It would be much easier to do so, say after a D is finalized......but I'm thinking that's a little late to save a M !!!

Filing for D looks pretty much inevitable at this point. Still can't decide if I want to make WW do it or if I want to beat her to the punch.....that way I can always withdraw it later and make her start the timeline all over again!....if I really wanted to draw this out longer that is.

I would agree in many circumstances that when she moves in with OM it's time for plan B, like I said before.

But if you don't want a DV, and neither of you can afford one, you have a lot more power than you think.

You can delay it.

You can be hard 2 get hold of 2 discuss terms. In fact, you should prepare yourself for a battle, and hire a mean lawyer 2 make as long a list of things you want 2 keep out of your marital home that you are living in and that she's abandoned. Then, slowly (via lawyers) negotiate down from EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN stays with you, 2 50/50.

This alone will take months. Plan A while it goes on, staying upbeat when you talk 2 her. Don't talk about DV (Heck, I'd even hang up on her if she mentions it, but that's just the kind of thing I did after d-day).

From her letter (and her current behavior), it's pretty clear she's a typical wayward. The fog-bound really do believe that being in love is what life is all about. Un42nately, those who continue believing that doom themselves 2 passion that only lasts a 2ple years at a time before it gets boring or painful, then the hop 2 the next such relationship.

Love is not a feeling.

Love is a conscious choice.

She could love you and only you if she knew that. But she doesn't. And you can't educate her. If she ever learns the truth, she'll do it all by herself.

-ol' 2long

Yes, I feel I did pretty much everything I could on exposure....and I continue reinforcing it to her friends/family every chance I get.....making sure they know the whole story about her and OM b/c WW doesn't bring it up. Finances are pretty well under control too I think.


This can probably still use more work (when can't it??!!) WW has been very quick to show her happiness that I'm taking the steps I'm taking. She compliments me often on how much weight I've lost and how good I look. She's complimented me recently since I've mentioned the spiritualism and self-realization that I'm working on....she's "very proud of me for that". She's acknowledged the efforts I'm willing to make and am making....but she's convinced that it's too little too late. In her own words "the willingness to change now is inconsequential to me". I don't see how that can be anything more than foggy A-talk. But, even though she sees all this, I still tell myself that more can be done still....and that's the only reason why I'm reluctant to go to plan B just yet.

As for R talk....I'm not very good at avoiding it. That's just me...I have this inherent need for answers. It does still annoy her but she's more open to it than before. I think she's a little more willing to talk now, but probably only b/c she's "really made up her mind" that she IS going to be with OM so doesn't feel as threatened by it.

How do you get through the hard times, vets? Man, I'm just worthless right now.

I've had a very stressful day at work, but right now I'm just sitting here at work and can't do ANYTHING.....just feel like bursting out in tears. I'm a wreck.

Don't know why, but the last 3 days have been really hard. I guess it's knowing WW is moving in with OM (although I knew it was going to happen, now it's reality).

I know everyone's different on how they deal with pain.....I'm just looking for ideas. Bad thing is, I met WW not long after moving to Cali. All my friends and family here are her friends and family....I don't have ANY of my own friends that I can just go "hang out with". I feel so freaking alone, it's ridiculous. Sometimes alone with your thoughts is ok.....but right now it's driving me mad.

I can't remember.

Have you called the Harleys for some coaching?

They seem expensive, until you compare the cost of a handful of sessions with that of divorce.

They can help you come up with a plan, if you need help.

-ol' 2long

No I haven't. I've decided I need to and want to, just haven't done it. Maybe I can now. Thanks 2long.

Going to talk to WW's best friend in a couple hours....maybe that will help some too. She's brutally honest though...so it might be a downer!

Click on "Coaching Center" at the top or bottom of this page.

Follow the links.

I got an appointment for 2morrow morning, and I only just filled out the online form last night.

Your WW's friend may or may not be helpful. Hard 2 know. Few friends and relatives have the experience 2 know what 2 do about cases of infidelity, particularly when it's their own friend "following their heart" (puke). And none of them have the experience of a trained professional.

-ol' 2long

Hang in there! There are still some days at work I cant focus at all...and theres something about 4 pm that leaves this crushing feeling in my chest... like I cant breathe. It starts to fade... you get down to 2-3 x a week then maybe 1x a week... unless something else crushing happens and you start over again. I wish I could tell you what will stop it. I had strong urges to cheat in kind, level the playing field... but I didnt, cause I knew it wouldnt help.
What I learned... what has helped is moving to recovery. About the time I chose that I would have to do it alone... Plan D... he came around. Now he has turned into my lifeline (the LB and HNHN courses helped him get there). When I cant breathe, I call him... and he talks to me, says beautiful things. I can breathe... most days. I hope you get there too. My heart goes out to you

Thanks for chiming in 4YR....always good to hear get some "hope" from someone who's been there/done that.

2long, WW's best friend isn't going to give me advice. I've talked to her a few times already. Yes, she supports WW first and foremost, but still doesn't agree with the actions.

I'm actually just taking back some things she'd given us recently..(stuff for our future kids....that we don't need now....ouch). Just figured a little up-to-date exposure and some attentive listening from her might be nice. I'm not expecting much :P

I'll definitely get something scheduled with Harley's soon.

Good. Plans are good ILA. They help you to focus on things on actions. This is the best way I know to feel like I am not a victim...like I have control over which way my life is going.

For me I can't stand pain. I will do anything to avoid it. I got very good at controlling where I allowed my thoughts to take me. At concentrating on joyful thoughts. I have a wild, vivid imagination and I have lived in it a lot at different times in my life where the pain was too much for me. I actually taught my daughter when she was little to control where her thoughts went when she was feeling scared. Take them to a happy place and pretend you are there.

I tried Lexapro for about five months, but I don't know if it did anything more than just numb me. Of course I think it helped me to sleep. And exorcise, eating and sleeping are three of things you abosolutely must have during times of duress. And probably they are the hardest things to do. Just gotta make yourself.

Music. That's the other thing that helps me.

And of course knowing you are not alone and that people care about you. This is huge. Even if the only people you can find are here on this board. It is still people caring about you.

(((((ILA)))))

Thanks for the kind thoughts, JJ. I'm exercising (joined gym and got trainer...have lost 35 lbs. since late Dec...from 260 to 225. Another 5-10 lbs. and I'll be at my goal...definitely look and feel MUCH better). Also, getting easier to eat and sleep normally....but that comes and goes.

Never was one that wanted ANY medication...but am starting to wonder now, because I just can't focus on anything but this situation. It's affecting all other aspects of my life still.

I am lucky that I've got support here and support from all of WW's family and frineds as well as mine......whenever I need to talk to someone, there is someone there for me. The outpouring and love and support has been unbelievable (especially from WW's family...that tells me a lot about who I am...which makes a person feel good).

Toughest thing is that everybody tells me to just move on....quit doing this to yourself....this is just WW and she's not likely to change. I know that's probably the truth too. But, I've seen the great side of W for nearly 6 years. I know the person she really is. Granted, I never saw this dark side of her until now. WW's sister said that ever since WW met me, her life had turned around and sister worries about her falling back into this dark pattern.

I know I can't change WW....only she can. But I'm not willing to just turn and walk away from her either. That's what everyone has always done and that's why she continues in this pattern....that's all she knows. She's never had to face consequences or have people take a hard line with her. I think the fact that I'm fighting for her is confusing (and frustrating) to WW....b/c she's never had that happen before. I guess that's why I believe she CAN and MIGHT change. I believe that eventually she'll be able to come out of the fog and see what we really have....and then WE can start the process of making those changes....permanently this time, so she never goes through this again.

Everyone else is too quick to dismiss her actions and see her almost as a "lost cause". They will always love and support her but just think she's always going to be this way. I think that's really sad.

Am I crazy to think this can happen. She's never been in a relationship that has been as good as ours. She'll never be loved as much as I love her. Is that enough to make someone "wake up" and decide to change eventually? Or, am I just chasing something that has no chance of happening?

"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal" ~~Henry Ford

Decide what it is you want, make a plan, execute plan.

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks but you. But don't waffle back and forth second guessing your decision.

If you have decided that you want to try and get your wife back then set your course and stick to it.

That bears repeating -

If you have decided that you want to try and get your wife back then set your course and stick to it.

Don't be weak minded and waffle.

You make a decision of what you want then make a plan to get it.

Set a time limit.

Perhaps six months.

"For six months I will work towards this goal, and then at the end of that six months I will place it in the hands of God (or providence, or fate, whatever you want to call it) and move on." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Beautifully put. With those words, I've made my decision. As hard as it may be I will work towards my goals and do all that I can do.

Thanks