I discovered my H's affair just 3 weeks ago. He immediately gave up the relationship saying he "doesn't want a broken home." NC is definately in place and we have started MC. So, I guess you could say we are in recovery? I'm so new to this, I'm still not sure.

My question, to those of you who have gone before me, is about regret and repentance. It is very important to me that I see FEELING when my H apologizes about the A, and so far, he has not. The MC asked about this, and he explained that he hasn't felt anything in a long, long time. I've read that this is typical for a WS, so I wasn't surprised, but when the MC asked me if I was ready to forgive, I hesitated. The reason? H doesn't seem to "get" the severity of the situation. There is no emotion and I haven't seem him fall at the feet of the Lord repenting for getting so off track.

He wants to let the past be the past and "focus on loving me the right way, which he should have been doing all along," but I'm not sure I can believe his apology if he doesn't display regret and true repenatance. Understandably, everyone will express regret in his/her own way, but something tells me H isn't genuine at the moment. This time, I'm going with my gut.

So, how long did it take before your WS showed feeling after the A? When did s/he show an understanding of everything risked by choosing this road? When did you feel you could accept an apology and move forward with recovery?

It takes maybe 6 months for a WS to really get it.

Don't be too hasty offering your forgiveness either.

Hi Wondering....

So sorry you're in this awful place.

I thought my H should have broken down too. I thought a light bulb would go off and he'd just be broken and remorseful and repentent.

Well, it didn't happen that way. I think it does for some, but not me. And my H's affair had been over for 1 1/2 years before I found out. So, he wasn't even in withdrawal, but he still had a wayward mindset when I found out.

I have learned though that removing the WS's fog is a PROCESS. It will take time to peel off those layers. It's infuriating to say the least. Some nuts are harder to crack.


I agree with BK that you don't have to rush in and give forgiveness. At this point, you may not even know what all there is to forgive him for.

Here's my advice. Make a list of the things YOU need from your H to recovery from his infidelity. Give him the list. If he really wants to save your marriage, he'll step up to the plate. Things on the list could be IC for your H for however long, MC for both of you, a detailed timeline of your H's affair to give you all the details, etc.


Also, make a list of your boundaries and their consequences and go over them with your H.

Also ask him how he plans to protect your marriage in the future. He should tell you that he will not let any women meet any of his EN's and tell you how they might be able to so he can be prepared for it in the future.

He also needs to be totally transparent to you with his comings and goings, his cell phone passwords, computer passwords, etc.

That's a start.


{{{{{{Wondering}}}}}

I have felt a lot of pressure from MC to forgive, so thanks for the assurance there is no rush. Part of me WANTS to forgive. It is quite a burden carrying around so many negative thoughts/emotions.

But I'm not ready to not talk about it or to promise not to dwell on it, etc. So I guess that depends on what forgiveness looks like according to H and MC.

Boundaries. That is another issue I've been struggling with. SAA makes it sound like you push your feelings to the side and make yourself lovlier than the OP. Easier said that done to be sure.

What are some of the boundaries/consequences you all set for recovery?

What were some of the conditions you set in order to consider reconciliation in the first place?

Thank you all so much for the suggestions.

Transparency
Answering truthfully all questions
No Contact
Being accountable for all time away from home
Email passwords
Cell Phone - check it any time
100% effort from WW to recover
Not to stay in a loveless marriage

Hey, no wonder he loves SAA, because they make you take the blame and try and compete with the OW.

And he wont tell his own parents the truth yet. You have to help hide the affair from them. That is pretty heinous. (from the EN thread)

He showed your daughter to the OW! And she mentioned it to you! He did not tell you the truth about this either.

Wonderin, glad you came to this board. They have been thru affairs. They dont just say, "forgive him forgive him"....instantly. Like it can solve everything.

I must have missed that part of SAA because I never saw that in there. SAA was a Godsend after d-day.

(((((Wonderin)))))

There is "the world's way" and there is "God's way."

Which do YOU choose?

From that choice will follow many other choices you will have to make, and the direction your recovery will take.

You can listen to the "advice" of bitterness and those who want to advise you as Job's friends, even as his wife, advised him. Or you can listen to the advice of God, trusting HIM, not any of us mere humans.

Wonderin, there is a world of difference between forgiveness and consequences, and that is where you might want to spend some time thinking, if not discussing, what those differences are.

God bless.

Wonderin, for me forgiveness is truly coming in stages. I told my WH that I forgave him way to early. I said the words but in my heart didn't really understand that I didn't.

My WH's efforts are helping in my forgivenesss department. He is showing remorse...NOT like I would had I had an A, but he is NOT me and recognizing his efforts has taken time. He is also 'trying' and there is progress so I'm hopeful that 1 day I truly can say I forgive him and mean it.

IMO 3 weeks is still way early to forgive...YOUR emotions are still raw and the rollercoaster ride is beginning. Hopefully as some time passes you will feel less and less raw and begin to think clearer and forgive.

For me, it's not that I won't forgive I just haven't gotten totally to that point yet. I'm working on it and so is he.

(((wonderin)))

Hi Wondering,

You ask some good questions.


Harley will note that most WS's, when they come back---do not apologize immediately. You do see a subgroup of those who are immediately remorseful, throw themselves at the feet of the Lord begging for forgiveness, and throw themselves full speed into making up for the affair. Count your 'blessings' if you have a WS like that, because most of them are affair 'addicts' still shaking off the addiction.

I believe if you were working with the Harley's in early recovery, he would push for both of you to apologize to each other at the earliest point possible (what the heck do you have to apologize for???). The reason is that this is part of coddling your Taker---so that your Giver's can get back to the work of repairing the marriage. So---knowing that this is the case (and knowing that it's your Taker that wants the apology), here's my advice to you:

1. Work on the mechanics of the marriage, even though you hurt. Care, Protection, Time, Honesty. On one of her recent threads, sexymamabear lists what Jennifer Harley had the two of them work through first---see if you can find that list, because it's a good one.

2. Understand that the emotions often follow the actions here. You want your husband to get those romantic love feelings for you. You want to have them for him. Do the work even though you might not feel like it---assure your Taker that it'll get the right results, with a little time.

3. Expect in a little while (maybe a month, maybe 3-6 months), that your husband will eventually come to you deeply ashamed and apologize profusely for the horror. Expect that by the time he does so, you'll no longer 'need' it for recovery. But it'll still feel good, and it will build love between the two of you.

You can forgive his actions to yourself---you have in some essence if you're still here working on the marriage. But to forgive him---I think he'll need to ask you for it in sincerity. But again---if you work on this plan together---you may find that you feel much more forgiving before he formally asks you for forgiveness.

Patience...

wonderin, Dr. Harley has an excellent article about forgiveness and how it should happen to effect the best outcome. Here is an excerpt:

Dr. Harley:
entire article at:
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Wonderin, for me forgiveness is truly coming in stages. I told my WH that I forgave him way to early. I said the words but in my heart didn't really understand that I didn't.

*************************************

I just don't see how you can SAY you forgive if you don't FEEL it. It would be a lie and it would end up hurting you in the end....If MC is pushing for forgiveness, I have to wonder if he is not thinking of it in stages also.

How does your H understand forgiveness? Has that been discussed at all? Are you on the same page?

wondering...
I was in your shoes in August, WH would apologize but it was like he was apologizing for eating the last ice cream bar. He wasn't crushed that he hurt me so...so I know exactly what you mean. MC told me that when she talked to him in IC she didnt get a since of remorse....I agreed. If he's not remorseful he may continue the A on the downlow (as mine did). It wasnt till Oct. that he had a wake up call + 2 days later I went into plan B...his apologizes were very different. Though he didnt cry like a little baby at my feet like i wanted him too...I can see that he's truely sorry.

so how long does it take??? I guess it depends, like I said it took my WH 2 months...but a wake up call and plan b had to happen first. Another reason he was unremorseful is because he still cared about the OW and felt it was a good thing...not the A but the actual relationship. I guess once your WH get OW out of his system and she dont seem like a goddess anymore....he will be able to see pain and dumb decision of his A.

Pressuring you to forgive?????? Maybe you need a different one....my MC says i'm clearly not ready to forgive so there's no need to even discuss that yet until she sees that i'm ready.


I want to forgive too but there's a fear of will he do it again that keeps my wall up.

I want to forgive too but there's a fear of will he do it again that keeps my wall up.
**********************************

And i am guessing that Is why Dr. Harley says a BS would be stupid to forgive a wayward spouse w/o just compensation.

I don't think he is talking about the same stage of forgiveness your MC (or FH or TR) refer to....i think, like K said you already have forgiven your to some degree because you are staying w/ him and working on the marriage.
You have forgiven him....but, you would be stupid to forget what he has done....and that is where all this confusion comes in....questioning when you can and can't trust your own intuition....after all, you believed your H before and it turned out he betrayed and lied to you. It is so difficult to truly trust after you have been lied to you that way.

You can forgive like Jesus did....forgive his sin....you do not wish your H any harm and do not plan on any revenge on him.
and you believe he is a good person who happened to sin......that is his issue, not yours.
So,
what he does to show his remorse is what will help you decide how to handle the next phase of forgiveness....truly FEELING that he is remorseful and slowly trusting him again.
Hopefully, as you work together on the relationship, the loving feelings will return for both of you and true and total forgiveness will happen.

“There is "the world's way" and there is "God's way."”

I really want to choose God’s way. Satan is doing everything he can to derail this though, and I’m struggling.

“Wonderin, there is a world of difference between forgiveness and consequences, and that is where you might want to spend some time thinking, if not discussing, what those differences are.”

You are right. We have had a great talk about forgiveness on the EN board, and it was an enormous help, as has been my quiet times in the Word. I know I need to forgive. But it does feel like there aren’t any consequences. At least none that are having any real impact on H. I keep thinking back to what my MC said…this will never be fair. Don’t expect it to be. Why is this so hard to accept? And if we go with the SAA plan…what are the consequences for the WS? A discussion of consequences would be great!

“Wonderin, for me forgiveness is truly coming in stages.”

I think I can relate. Forgiveness is a choice, imo. I can choose to forgive, even when I don’t feel like it. And I may have to make that choice over and over again in the hours/days/weeks/months/years to come. I don’t want to dwell on the bad, and I want to look to the future, but there are real hurts and disappointments that won’t let me entirely. I do think it will help me immensely when I believe that H really gets it…time will tell. Patience isn’t something I thought I’d be learning through this.

“most of them are affair 'addicts' still shaking off the addiction”

Trying hard to come to terms with this. I would love to hear how long it took your WSs to shake it off. In my case, the PA was 5 months…I think the EA was 7, but it is hard for me to say for sure. He says he had mild attachment and that he loved her, but not like he loves me…I still don’t get that. The emotional side of this is harder for me to get over than the physical. I can’t stand that she was not only his lover but his best friend and playmate while I was little more than a maid to clean his shorts and take care of his D. I feel so used.

“Work on the mechanics of the marriage, even though you hurt. Care, Protection, Time, Honesty. On one of her recent threads, sexymamabear lists what Jennifer Harley had the two of them work through first---see if you can find that list, because it's a good one.”

I clicked on Sexymamabear’s name and found many different threads in which she has participated. Since my time online is limited (I have a 2 ½ year old), I was hoping someone could offer the name of the thread? If so, many thanks!

“Understand that the emotions often follow the actions here. You want your husband to get those romantic love feelings for you. You want to have them for him. Do the work even though you might not feel like it---assure your Taker that it'll get the right results, with a little time.”

I get this…but this is where I have a lot of fear. I have been trying to meet ENs and be a better W to H for the last 6 months, when he first told me he was unhappy. He didn’t allow my efforts to touch him (his words), and my love bank is very low because he was doing little to nothing to meet any of my needs. I don’t want to get hurt anymore, and at the same time, I want to do the right thing. It is so confusing to feel two conflicting emotions at once.

“Expect in a little while (maybe a month, maybe 3-6 months), that your husband will eventually come to you deeply ashamed and apologize profusely for the horror. Expect that by the time he does so, you'll no longer 'need' it for recovery. But it'll still feel good, and it will build love between the two of you.”

That would mean a lot to me. And it is encouraging to hear you say that I will probably no longer need it once it comes. I can’t imagine getting over the hurt I feel.

I read the Can’t We Just Forgive and Forget article. Excellent.

“Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer.”

This is exactly what I’ve been wanting. It is encouraging to know that someone out there thinks that this makes sense other than me. I feel crazy half the time lately. I’m not sure what is real and what is emotion and what is fear.

“Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and to avoid circumstances that might ignight an new affair should be part of the plan for recovery.”

This is something we haven’t touched yet, and it is likely the reason that I suffer worse when he is out of town (H is a pilot). Fear again.

“How does your H understand forgiveness? Has that been discussed at all? Are you on the same page?”

We haven’t discussed too much with MC except that he believes it needs to happen before we can proceed too much further. I asked H if he would want me to NEVER talk about it again post forgiveness, which is my big fear, and he said that he does not want me to bottle anything up because that would be bad for ultimate healing, so no he does not. At the same time, he doesn’t want me to dwell on things that stir up bad feelings. He is hoping that once a particular part of the puzzle is forgiven, I will try to let it go. If something new comes up…or I can’t let something go, he wants me to share it. This seems livable. So I guess we are on the same page. It just hasn’t been put to the test yet. He was really upset that I looked at the text messaging record online for the month of November, because he knows that my “knowing” sets me back and brings up bad feelings. He is right, but I can’t control myself. I pray and pray and then I give in. I am obsessed.

“If he's not remorseful he may continue the A on the downlow (as mine did). It wasnt till Oct. that he had a wake up call + 2 days later I went into plan B...his apologizes were very different. Though he didnt cry like a little baby at my feet like i wanted him too...I can see that he's truely sorry.”

My H did say that the only way I could hurt him would be to leave him. Plan B would surely have the same effect. Well, that puts me in between a rock and a hard place, doesn’t it?

“It is so difficult to truly trust after you have been lied to you that way.”

Amen!

“You can forgive like Jesus did....forgive his sin....you do not wish your H any harm and do not plan on any revenge on him.
and you believe he is a good person who happened to sin......that is his issue, not yours.”

Yes…this is what I want. I have to admit…there is a part of me, wonderin black, who DOES want H to hurt. But, I know that is a wrong attitude, and most of the time, I don’t think that way. It is a struggle I’m dealing with, but I don’t think wonderin black will win. She isn’t 98% of the time.

There is forgiveness and there is trust.

Destroyed trust has to be repaired - not your job but the WS's.

There is forgiveness and there are consequences (as other posters have aleady mentioned).

Forgiveness does not mean that the WS is to be shielded from the naturally occurring consequences;
The BS being expected to hide their hurt or in any way protect the WS from the consequences is not 'forgiveness'.

There is forgiveness and there is reconciliation.

While sustained or vengeful lack of forgiveness can eventually prevent complete reconciliation, a decision to not grant the WS the grace of a reconciliation opportunity,
or requiring certain things of the WS in order to reconcile, is not necessarily proof of a lack of forgiveness. It is possible to forgive yet set boundaries that say no to reconciliation, or yes to reconciliation ONLY IF certain conditions are met.

There is forgiveness and there is remorse.

While it is possible for the BS to forgive minus genuine remorse from the WS, it is neither required or wise for the BS to give the WS another chance if the WS doesn't think they did anything wrong.

Having said that, it is not unusual for the WS to not feel or express remorse until they have been away from the OP for some time. So insistence on WS remorse before starting recovery is probably making a demand that the WS is not ready to meet, and therefore will probably derail early recovery efforts.

HOWEVER, if there have already been numerous false recoveries, or the WS has already been away from the OP for a long time but STILL doesn't get what was so wrong with what they did, OR the WS commits a string of adulteries... then it becomes less and less logical for the BS to give the WS another chance minus major proof of WS remorse and reform.

There is forgiving and there is forgetting.

Depending on whose books you read, and how you define each, one does not necessarily involve the other.

IMHO, although I acknowledge that initially the BS may have to suspend all expectation of WS remorse just to get the recovery started and the WS away from the OP influence/addiction, eventually if the WS doesn't acknowledge any remorse, that renders any forgiveness the BS extended un-acknowledged anyway. Sometign that is expected or take for granted, forgiveness for something the perpetrator doesn't even believe is wrong, is not duly appreciated or valued.

There are many reasons for a WS to lack remorse:

the WS denies what they did - just wants to pretend nothing happened

the WS denies the extent of what they did - only admits to some of what they did

the WS denies that what they did was wrong - claims it was no big deal, that the bs overreacted

the WS denies that what they did was wrong - feels entitled to such behavior and doesn't really believe the BS has a right to expect otherwise

the WS doesn't want to take responsibility for what they did - wants to blame the circumstances, the OP, their upbringing, or even the BS

the WS is afraid to admit guilt and remorse - because they are afraid then the BS will leave them, punish them, get revenge, throw it in their face forever,

the WS is afraid to admit guilt or remorse - because they are scared they will feel more depression and shame than they can deal with

the WS doesn't want to admit responsibility - because they plan to cheat again and don't want to get rid of their favorite excuses to cheat

the WS doesn't want to admit wrongdoing - becuase they don't want to appear weak, imperfect, un'cool', 'whipped'

the WS doesn't want to admit wrongdoing - because they don't know about, fully understand, or have faith in a recovery plan capable of restoring marriage after such an immense betrayal

the WS might feel remorse - but believe that bringing up the subject of the adultery will prevent recovery

There are many reasons why a WS might resist expressing remorse... some good - some not.

In general the WS's ability and willingness to express remorse should increase over time. Entrenched attitudes of unremorsefulness, over extended time, need to be watched out for. But expecting a lot of expession fo remorse int he beginning of recovery, while understandable desired and even needed by the BS, is not realistic.

meremortal...thank you for the thoughts. There really is a lot to this reconciliation process, isn't there? It seems so insurmountable. I guess this is good chance to develop patience and faith. It just hurts so much, and it is so hard to choose recovery over divorce when the later seems so easy.

"The BS being expected to hide their hurt or in any way protect the WS from the consequences is not 'forgiveness'."

I agree, but SAA is clear that discussing the A will withdraw love units from both banks. I don't get when I should share my hurts/angers and when I should keep them to myself. I guess the obvious time to share is MC, but I have a hard time holding things in between sessions.

"Having said that, it is not unusual for the WS to not feel or express remorse until they have been away from the OP for some time. So insistence on WS remorse before starting recovery is probably making a demand that the WS is not ready to meet, and therefore will probably derail early recovery efforts."

This is where I'm learning patience. I know this...many people have said it, but I want to fast forward to the point where he is no longer thinking of her for my benefit. This emotional attachment is killing me.

I assumed that SAA is sex addicts anonomous. But I may be wrong? Is that what it is?